Dear Deidre ...

N

nist858

New member
Greetings all! To begin my introduction, I think I'd better explain the thread title first. Before I registered with this forum, I sent an email to Deidre (she of The Sun fame) to seek some advice. My email was as follows:

"Dear Deidre,

I am a 22 year old woman in a long-term three-way relationship.

I met my boyfriend when I was 20 and, a year later, we mutually welcomed another woman into our relationship. We have all been living together for a year now and couldn't be happier. His and her families are Muslim and think that we are just in a polygamous relationship, which they are fine with - they don't know that the other woman and I are in a sexual relationship too, but this isn't something they are likely to find out unless we tell them.

The only problem is that I haven't told my family (who are Christian) about our arrangement yet. My family have met my boyfriend and they got on well, but they don't know about the other woman. I don't know how to tell them but I don't know how long I can keep it from them - I don't want them to find out about it another way before I've told them myself.

Also, us three have been living in a big city where everybody tends to keep themselves to themselves and nobody will pry into your personal life too much unless you volunteer the information. But we will be moving to a small town soon and I worry about how the people in a tighter-knit community will view our arrangement."

OK, so I accept that Deidre probably wasn't the best person to turn to for advice on this subject - one step down from going on The Jeremy Kyle Show and all that - but I was expecting a response along the lines of "Don't worry about what the members of your new community think - they're only neighbours, and if they can't accept your lifestyle then do you really want them as friends? As regards your family, tell them at a good time in such-and-such a way ... " etc. Instead, I got this:

"Hi, thank you for your email. I am glad you got in touch and I hope I can help you. I come from a culture where polygamy is not part of it but I do see that it is part of your boyfriend’s culture and I can try to understand your situation.

Even when you move to a smaller community, it is possible that other people would see your arrangement simply as part of your boyfriend’s culture. For this reason, I think that the question of moving to another community is probably not your greatest problem.

You don’t say whether your boyfriend knows of the sexual relationship you and the other woman have, or how he feels about it, if he does. I know your arrangement may feel all right at the moment but sooner or later emotions are likely to become involved in one way or another and the results would be misery for one or all of you.

Jealousy and insecurity are part of the risk. Polygamy is not part of what your family would most likely expect and it is not part of what you grew up expecting. How would you feel if your boyfriend’s feelings for the other woman came to be greater than his are for you? How would he feel if you and she decided that your relationship with each other was more important than either of you have with him.

I can see that your situation is different from a threesome purely for sex but the complications are similar. I am attaching my leaflet about threesomes, which explains the risks.

You also need to ask yourselves how it would affect the relationship if you or the other woman were to get pregnant. That could alter feelings drastically between you all.

Do let me know how you get on and whether you feel that I can be of any further help.

All the best

Deidre."

Attached was a leaflet that warned about the potential 'relationship-wrecking' consequences of having a threesome (I'll post it in a separate post below for those who are interested).


GAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! I want to post the following in all caps, but I won't for the sake of politeness.

THIS kind of thinking is EXACTLY what makes the polyamorous lifestyle problematic! Deidre gave me the exact response that I was worried about receiving from members of my new community - "Don't you get jealous of each other?" (Me: No.) "Well, how do you you won't get jealous of each other in the future?" "What if your boyfriend and girlfriend run off with each other and leave you on your own?" "What if she gets pregnant and you can't?" "What if you get pregnant and she gets jealous?" "Doesn't the thought of your boyfriend bedding another woman make you feel insecure? No? Well it will!"

Once again: GAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

To answer Deidre's question: Yes, my boyfriend does know about the nature of my relationship with the other woman. I thought that this would have been obvious, given our situation, but apparently not.

I am all too aware of the fact that I did not grow up expecting polyamoury. This was a major cause of angst in my teens - my first 'proper' relationship broke up when my best friend told me that my then-boyfriend had tried to chat her up. I broke up with him because of this, but I realised afterwards that I had done this because I was 'supposed' to be angry with him and be filled with insecurity, jealousy and rage - I was confused and thought that there was something wrong with me when I realised that I didn't actually have any of these feelings that I was expected to have. If something like that happened to me now, I would be disappointed that he had gone behind my back - but he would have been unlikely to have gone behind my back because I would have told him about my feelings about monogamy etc.

Also, to clarify: my boyfriend's and girlfriend's families are both Muslim and my family are Christian. However, my boyfriend is a Deist, my girlfriend is an Agnostic and I am an Atheist. However, my boyfriend's and girlfriend's families think that he and she are non- or semi-practicing Muslims and I am a Christian; my family know that he is a Deist and I'm an Atheist but they don't know about her existence. Complicated enough for you guys? Wouldn't life be so much simpler if everyone would just live and let live?
 
ffWithi chains

A copy of the text of the leaflet that Deidre attached to her reply to my email, for those who are interested. I've added a few retorts that I couldn't resist adding in red.

THINKING OF A THREESOME?

If you’re thinking of trying a threesome, then I'm glad you've got in touch. It can sound like harmless fun but I know this issue causes a great deal of unhappiness and conflict between many couples.

The most common situation I hear about from readers is that it's the man who first raises the idea of the couple taking another man or woman into their bed, swapping partners with another couple or going to a swinging club. He finds thinking about it very arousing - a sexual fantasy. He may have been finding his ordinary married or regular sex life a bit dull, so goes on and on at his partner not to be prudish.

Actually, in my situation, I was the one who brought up the subject of polyamory and led the discussion on rules, boundaries etc - though my boyfriend didn't take much convincing to agree to live a polyamorous lifestyle.

The trouble is that real people don't behave like the fantasies and usually have very muddled feelings. Week after week I hear from couples who have experimented and been made very miserable.

A husband who has pushed his wife into having sex with another man may then reproach her for being unfaithful to him - you should have kept saying no, he moans. He may say he now feels he can never trust her again and leave - what a way to discover that what was arousing him wasn't really pushing the boundaries but old-fashioned sexual jealousy.

Well, if I was with a man who asked me to have an MMF threesome and then moaned at me after the threesome for agreeing to it in the first place, I'd tell him to suck it up and/or sod off. If he left as a result of this, then good riddance to bad rubbish!

If he said something like "I thought I'd be turned on by an MMF threesome, but when it actually came to it I just felt insecure and jealous, so I don't think it would be a good idea to do it again." Then that's fair enough. But for him to moan about me fulfilling his request because his reactions to my fulfillment of his request weren't what he imagined they'd be when he made his request? Tough bloody luck, mate!

Or the woman may decide she's fallen in love with the other man - women tend to feel emotionally drawn to someone who makes them feel special in bed. We all have some problems in long-term relationships. It's all too easy to fall for the idea that someone you're sharing different and exciting sex with would actually be a better life partner, is a lovelier person. Sometimes it's true. More often they're just a different person.

And here's what I would see as an ADVANTAGE of polyamory - there's no need for your partner to leave you so that he/she can run off with someone else. He/she can stay with BOTH of you - and if he/she DOES end up leaving you for someone else, then at least it will be because there were deeper problems with the relationship, and their reasons for leaving you were more than "I fancied someone else."

And all the same problems can arise the other way round. A wife may find she's tormented by images of her husband with the other woman in their bed. She may have agreed to go along with the idea of a threesome or swinging, may have thought it sounded like fun, but afterwards discovers it's ruined the happy sex life she and her husband used to share. That can place a terrible strain on their relationship even if he never sees the other woman again.

So polyamory/swinging probably isn't a good idea for jealous types. Captain Obvious to the rescue!

Even worse, she may find she's been sidelined and her partner is clearly keener to make love to the other woman than to her. She may worry - and perhaps have good reason to worry - that they are having an affair. Long-term relationships always have their niggles and shared responsibilities. A different partner can make you feel better not because they are a better lover or person, but just because they aren't directly connected with your day-to-day life. It's escapism but, unfortunately, someone often winds up hurt.

This supposedly safe way of you both enjoying sex with someone new can result in broken relationships, wrecked families and a lot of grief - and that's quite apart from the physical risks that having sex outside your committed relationship can bring.

Suppose the other person or couple are harbouring a sexual infection? People can pass on an infection such as chlamydia or gonorrhoea even though they are not experiencing any symptoms and aren't aware they've got it. Sexual infections can result in infertility, so it's not a risk to take lightly. Or suppose there is a contraception failure and an unplanned pregnancy results? That’s a sad consequence I’m regularly told about.

Are there seriously still idiots out there who need to be told that they should wear a condom when having casual sex?

Threesomes especially can also play up doubts about sexuality. If one of you is keen to have someone else of the same sex in your bed, is it just to thrill your partner, or is it that you have more gay desires than you've perhaps admitted or even realised? If so, that is an issue that needs tackling urgently and honestly. My leaflet Gay worries? could help you sort out your feelings.

If you are determined to try a threesome or swinging, you need to make extra-sure of your contraceptive precautions and follow the guidelines for safer sex, such as using condoms. But I'd recommend you instead look more deeply at what is leading you - or your partner - to feel drawn to the idea.

Is it that your love life has become rather dull or unsatisfying? This could be because you have a sexual problem which needs sorting out - difficulty in reaching orgasm or maintaining an erection, for example. If so, please let me know and I can send you details of self-help and expert sex therapy.

It could be there is some tension in your relationship which needs sorting out. As I've said, our sex lives and our feelings are closely linked. Difficulties in our sexual relationship are very often symptoms of more general problems. A woman who is always tired out because she shoulders most of the chores at home as well as having a paid job, for example, will lose interest in sex. A man who is overwhelmed with worries about holding on to his job may well find his sex drive crashes.

What often lies behind people's urge to try swinging or a threesome is difficulty in giving themselves over to real intimacy. They don't really surrender themselves to experience the depth of emotions and passion that can be aroused and satisfied by quite conventional love-making. This will often be linked with difficulty in sharing open affection in day-to-day life too.

If you can learn to trust your partner with your deepest feelings, then your love-making can be so rich that you feel no need to involve others to spice it up. That can be far more satisfying, as well as safer. Making such a change will usually involve you making shifts in your whole relationship - and you’re best enlisting the help of a counsellor.

It could be there is some tension in your relationship which needs looking at. As I've said, our sex lives and our feelings are closely linked. Difficulties in our sexual relationship are very often symptoms of more general problems. A woman who is always tired out because she shoulders most of the chores at home as well as having a paid job, for example, will lose interest in sex. A man who is overwhelmed with worries about holding on to his job may well find his sex drive crashes. You may be able to sort these out by talking between you - perhaps taking some time out, such as a weekend away from the home and kids. If you get stuck, counselling can help.

So the only reason why people opt for polyamorous/swinging lifestyles is because they have problems with their current relationship which need addressing urgently. *rolls eyes*

As well as offering counselling, face-to-face, online or over the phone, Relate can refer you for a course of sex therapy (www.relate.org.uk, 0300 100 1234). In Scotland contact Relationships Scotland (www.relationships-scotland.org.uk, 0845 119 2020), in Northern Ireland contact Relate NI (www.relateni.org, 028 9032 3454) and in the Republic of Ireland contact Relationships Ireland (www.relationshipsireland.com, 1890 380 380). The British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy can give details of qualified counsellors and therapists near you (www.itsgoodtotalk.org.uk, 01455 883300). Get Connected help under 25s over the phone and online, and can find you suitable counselling near you (www.getconnected.org.uk, 0808 808 4994).

GPs vary as to how knowledgeable they are at helping with sexual difficulties, but your GP can refer you for counselling. Some GPs have specialist training from the Institute of Psychosexual Medicine, and you can ask the Institute for details of those near you (www.ipm.org.uk, 020 7580 0631). If you can afford private treatment, you can ask your GP to refer you to a private specialist. This is usually a better route to a reputable specialist than responding to an advertisement for a private sex clinic, or contact the College of Sexual and Relationship Therapists (www.cosrt.org.uk, 020 8543 2707). You can also get advice from the Sexual Advice Association on (www.sexualadviceassociation.co.uk, 020 7486 7262).

I hope you’ve found this useful. We do try to keep information as up-to-date as possible but we’d be grateful if you would let us know if you find any changes.
 
Ermmm, her advice was pretty wise, have you addressed those questions between you? What 'if' one of you were to get pregnant, have you discussed thoughts and ideas around that? For example some people in some cultures expect marriage if a pregnancy occurs, so if your girlfriend who is Muslim gets pregnant I am pretty sure she will want marriage or her family will go spare...how will that make you feel being the non legal wife? (I assume you are from the UK also, from your lingo).

Being the first partner of his you might feel that that place is by rights yours? You might feel second place or marginalised.

And with all due respect, a year is not a long term relationship, it is a year!!!! NRE is still in play and who knows where the cards will fall after the love/sex coke leaves the building (I know this from painful experience).

I would calm down on the righteous anger and start asking your partners some pertinent questions, especially with regard to, possible pregnancy, expectation of marriage, holidays, meeting family, changes in dynamic (i.e. losing sexual interest in one partner) personal space, dyad time. I am sure other people can think of many more issues also, trust me moving to a smaller community (especially in the UK) is the least of your problems, I lived in one of the smallest communities in the UK and no one batted an eyelid.
 
We have already talked about marriage - if her family pressure her to get married or face ostracisation, then I would be happy for her to marry him. I don't feel that my potential marriage to him is a 'right' that I 'ought' to have in preference to her. The only problem would be that she would have legal rights that I wouldn't and that could be problematic in the event of a divorce. One way this could be got round is by her just having a mosque marriage (and not registering it legally) to placate her family. Other potential solutions would be something to look in to - any suggestions re where a good place would be to begin my research?

As for potential pregnancies - assuming that the non-pregnant woman isn't jealous of the pregnant woman, what issues would I need to think about?

So a year might not be that long - by 'long term' I meant that this isn't just some fling - we plan to stay together for the foreseeable future - but it's better to address these issues sooner rather than later, no?

I guess I should probably calm down and take such advice on board - it just gets on my nerves when people say "Well, what about this, that and the other?" Like monogamous relationships wouldn't have similar problems. It seemed to me like Deidre's response had overtones of "Non-monogamous relationships are bound to encounter all these problems - if only you'd be monogamous, you'd avoid all this!" But maybe that's just me needing to calm down again...
 
Hi nist858,
Welcome to our forum.

It's too bad that society at large isn't ready to accept or understand polyamory, and it's a shame that you can't get the kind of informational support you need because "Poly is always the problem." It's just lucky that the internet exists and that you can tap into resources like Polyamory.com ... This is where I'd recommend turning to for answers to your questions about how to make poly work. Nobody here is going to say, "But you can't make poly work -- that's the whole point!" Instead, you have at your fingertips a wealth of diverse experience from people who can and do make polyamory a successful part of their lives.

Your questions to Deidre were how to handle coming out to your family, and how to handle living in a small town (as a polyamorist). I've never really been polyamorous in a town where "everyone knew everyone's business," so I can't be of much help there, although it's certainly food for thought that Natja's small-town experience was a positive (or at least non-problematic) one.

As for coming out to your family, I want to start out by saying that my little poly unit (an MFM V) is 99% in the closet and has been since we formed our V in 2006. So far, that hasn't been a problem. If anyone suspects us of any non-monogamous activity, they aren't confronting us about it, and no one seems to be uncomfortable with our "official story" that I am a friend to a married couple, even though we live together. So really, I have to wonder if it isn't quite possible to stay in the closet for life -- if that's what one would rather choose.

On the other hand, the idea of staying in the closet sits poorly with many polyamorists. Nobody likes to lie, keep secrets, and play pretend when family comes to call. In addition, like in my case, there's the obvious possibility that someone could look at our trio and think, "Hmmm, I'll bet he's having an affair with that guy's wife, and the poor slob isn't aware of it." I don't like the idea of people making that assumption about me, even if they don't actually bug me about it. Finally, there's the fact that you don't know who your friends really are unless your friends know the truth about you and can make an informed decision about whether they want to be your friend.

So I, personally, would rather get it over with and tell the world about our polyamorous arrangement. No more gossip to spread around about supposed secret affairs; everyone would know that all three of us are aware of our multiple romantic configuration and are perfectly consenting to it. If some, most, or all of my family finds that repulsive and intolerable, well, that's their own problem in my eyes. But then, I don't have as much sentimental needs for ties to my blood relations as perhaps most people to do. My real family is those persons who accept me as I am, and that's good enough for me.

However, my two companions are a lot more attached to their blood relatives, and a lot more apprehensive about the fallout for outing themselves. Their parents would have a fit, especially my brother-husband's parents. He has a twin brother who might disown him. I sometimes pitch (to my companions) the plusses of coming out, but in the meantime I respect their wishes to keep it a secret. It may always be a secret, and I guess I've made my peace with that.

The very few friends/relatives we have told have been very accepting, and perhaps even better still, smart and reliable about keeping their own lips zipped towards everyone else. If we get outed, it'll definitely be our own doing, not the doing of those few who we've told.

But enough about me. What are you going to do when the time comes to tell your family? Well, for starters, I'd prepare myself to honestly and politely answer the very kinds of "rhetorical" questions that Deidre was asking you, because these are the kinds of things that monogamous people wonder about, and they will want to know. If you're at all in a defensive frame of mind about polyamory, I wouldn't try to out yourself -- not yet. Wait until you are ready to face that barrage of questions with a sense of calm and serenity.

In fact, best prepare yourself for considerably worse reactions than just all those annoying questions. Some people might not ask you any questions. They might go straight to hurtful remarks like, "I can't believe you're doing this; don't you have any respect for the promises you've made; you're going to end up alone and miserable; I can't support this kind of immorality; you're not welcome at my home anymore; I don't want my kids exposed to this kind of example that you're setting." Will you have the strength to turn the other cheek and say, "I'm sorry you feel that way; I will respect your wishes even though I personally have to live my own life as I chose." If people will have the power to goad you into having a fight with them, then you're probably not ready to out yourself to your family.

Expect some good reactions and some bad reactions. Don't be surprised if the people you expected the most support from turn on you; don't be surprised if the people you most feared telling turn out to be your allies. There's just no way to predict how people will respond to a life choice that is so alien to our society as a whole.

As for how to broach the subject, there's a couple of ways you can do it. One is to decide who to tell first, pay them a visit at their house and ask them to sit down for a sober talk with you. Then start off with something along the lines of, "I need to let you know that I am polyamorous." If their first question is, "What the heck does that mean?" then you follow up with something like, "It's when there's romantic involvement between more than two adults, but all the adults in the situation know what's going on and consent to it." Be prepared for some persistent confusion. "I still don't get it. You mean you're having an affair?" etc.

You just have to be patient, and keep explaining and answering questions until they understand. And yeah, they might be full of doubts, and give you the Deidre treatment. In which case, I'd try really hard to put myself in their shoes and trust that they're just concerned for your well-being, and that's why they're questioning what sounds to them like a dubious proposition.

Brace yourself for the worst imaginable reactions, train yourself to adopt Jesus' words on the cross, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do," soothe and reassure if you can and if they're too pissed at you to countenance your words or very presence, bow out respectfully and gracefully and resign yourself to be estranged to them unless and until they have a change of heart.

Another possible approach is to send a group email to your various family members, telling them that you need to know that you are polyamorous, adding a brief but clear description of what that means, offering to answer any questions anyone has, and expressing your love for them and your hope that they'll be willing to respect your decision even if they don't agree.

You also need to decide whether you're willing to attend family functions where you're invited but one or both of your poly partners is not. Again, whatever you decide, resolve to announce your decision in a way that's respectful of other people's feelings and sensibilities. Even if some people treat you like crap for being poly, you set the example and offer nothing but respectful politeness in return. You can't stop being polyamorous because they tell you to and so you should say to them, but say it in a way that deflects drama and confrontation as much as possible.

Because our world is so skeptical about polyamory, you really have to learn to love your enemies in order to be polyamorous without constantly feeling bent out of shape because people won't accept you. Anger isn't good for you, and it won't soften any monogamous hearts. Most people are subject to a lot of social conditioning. Some people just *can't* overcome that conditioning. They're just not strong enough. You have to be strong enough to forgive them for that.

Oh yes there's lots of experts (like Deidre, or worse, people with fancy degrees in psychology and stuff) who will tell you all about why polyamory is dysfunctional and destructive. The best way to respond to that is to quietly acknowledge their point of view and privately reside in your own knowledge that polyamory has been proven to work by lots and lots of people, such as many of the people you will meet on this website. Polyamory isn't for everyone. But it's just right for you and me.

Hope that helps,
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
I wouldn't recommend "coming out"

to anybody unless you had an established support group. There is a world of difference between going through hard times with support compared to facing it all on your own.

You need to be careful about who you turn to for support, as even among self-proclaimed "polyamorists" and some poly communities you will find they may not be the best places to go for support due to some groups being very strict poly ideology, which could lead to even further isolation if you come to find out after the fact that you will be ostracized by them due to your practiced dynamic that they don't agree with.

The other thing to keep in mind is just how strong of a push there currently is to wrongfully discriminate Muslims, as even from your post I since some sort of unspoken bitterness towards followers of Islam.

You might want to remove the links, to be honest I am surprised that nobody suspected the links as spam, or possibly a rather underhanded attempt to publish some anti-poly literature

anyway, I am not a moderator but I could understand if they made you take down the links since you are fairly new to the forum
 
As for potential pregnancies - assuming that the non-pregnant woman isn't jealous of the pregnant woman, what issues would I need to think about?
Click to expand...

What role is each person going to take in the child's life?
Do they want to take that role?
What if one or both of the biological parents feel differently once this baby is really on it's way?
What if the non-biological parent feels differently once the child is on it's way?
What if any or all you feel differently once the baby is here?
 
InfinitePossibility said:
The Sun is a UK tabloid newspaper. Deirdre is their agony aunt.
Click to expand...

Oh, yeah, someone once posted that term "agony aunt" here a long time ago, and I asked what that was, too, since I'd never heard that one before. An advice columnist, I assume? Like Dear Abby? Is this Deirdre chick famous in Britain?
 
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