How Should I Deal with a Manipulator?

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LondonGuy

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Group dynamics... (we're all Poly & Kinky)

D/E are primaries. Both also used to date N in a triad but things broke down between E/N, D/N are still together. D also dates T (who has another partner), but I don't know either of them really. N also has many other relationships that are usually short term flings (of which J is the latest).

I (me this time, no abbreviation) used to date S. S also dates M, who isn't really relevant for this story.

Ok so waaay back last year N approached me (as one of her closest poly friends that she wasn't involved with) and told me that D was really struggling with jealousy. He was starting to impose a DADT policy on N which was putting her under stress. He was finding it hard knowing she was dating others, but E was convincing him it was only fair to allow N to...

So N came to me saying that she was finding this really hard, she shared a lot of details about her flings with me because she found it easy to confide in me, but whenever she got close to people and they started showing PDAs either at munches or online then she would end it because of D. This really hurt G who is one of my closest friends; she treated him like crap, he has autism and often doesn't understand where the boundaries lie with friendship/PDAs.

Then in February E/N broke it off but decided D/N would continue dating. E/N agreed to be civil and I think N still had a lot of respect there.

N revealed to me that part of the reason for the tensions was something which D had said to her around Christmas. He said "I love you... wow, that's the first time I've said that and meant it in over 7 years".

Now that's awkward because D/E have been together for 5 years, D/T have been together for as long as I've known them so at least 2. D/N had been together exactly a year at this point.

My response when N confided this all in me was to ask whether D had planned to leave his other partners? N said that if D ever broke E's heart then she would leave him. Which at the time sounded sweet and respectful of E but I can now see it sort of feels like N's emotionally blackmailing D to stick with a relationship he's not 100% happy in.

Now at around this time I was dealing with S's jealousy issues. Or rather we were failing to deal with them. I took the easy way out and went on a date behind her back... just to find out if there was anything there with this other girl. There wasn't, nothing happened, but I confided in N because I felt great for having made the decision to find out for myself. N had confided in me loads so why not!!

2 Months later N tells S. S and I split up, she can't take it that I lied. We hardly talk for about a month. It hurts in that time and we both do some pretty stupid things to try and process it all. I'm fuming with N and considering telling E how N has been manipulating D. S and N become best friends.

Anyway in this time S gets close to J who she used to like. They play together a couple of times...

S and I slowly start talking again about a month after we split and we both start to understand a lot more about what happened throughout our relationship. Where the missunderstandings were happening, we learnt more about ourselves, we learnt more about each other. Most importantly for me she learnt that when I brought up old things it was never because I was trying to continue to use them as points scoring - it was just because when she was unhappy with me for my behaviour, I needed her to know how the things she had done had affected my frame of mind at the time. I always forgave her for what she had done, but they had affected me. I think it took months after we split up for her to really understand this is why I was bringing it up. Equally it took months after us splitting up for me to understand how it looked when I did.

Fact is we have both learnt a lot through all this. I kinda feel that if we had both known at the start what we know now then it could have all worked out much better and that's rather upsetting. I'd like us to try again one day but I want us to both concentrate on processing all the hurt first.

S confides in me about J. She tells me that she's falling for him and she tells him this too. He says that he really likes N and only ever wants what he has with S to be play. S turns to me very upset. N promises to never betray S (as I say they're now BFFs).

S organises some drinks to celebrate leaving her job and invites a load of friends... including S and J. Both agree to come but then both cancel on the day within 5 minutes of each other, arising suspicions. I then find out later that they are in fact together behind S's back (and behind D's back).

N is a hypocrite, a liar and a manipulator. I want to tell E, I feel I should. But after all the stuff N spread about me when S and I split up I kinda feel like it will just be seen as me trying to spread stuff purely for the sake of revenge. It kinda is, but it's also absolutely true. I can't tell E though as her and N are close -E believes all of N's lies and I'm worried my side won't be listened to.

I've told a couple of mutual friends and they believe me, but general consensus on the community of those that don't know anything is that N is right. N is rather attractive, has been on the scene 2 years (so less than me but not by much) and makes everybody cakes regularly - everyone loves her... why wouldn't they all just believe her? I learnt recently that you shouldn't pick a public argument which you can't win and she's been quite successful in tarnishing my name publicly. I do want revenge but know I can't 'win'.

This last week I found out T also has a very poor opinion of N. T thinks she's a "nasty manipulative little bitch". So maybe what I have to say may be appreciated here? But if I do tell T then will N tell S that I have spread stuff purely for revenge? Will this bite me in the arse and remove all the progress S and I have made?

Will it bite my reputation in the arse more generally?

Should I tell S that N and J have been seeing each other or is this just likely to cause S hurt with nothing to actually gain?

Should I maybe just back off, place myself as FAAAAAAAAAAAAAR away from drama/manipulators as possible? It is at least true that with N being this manipulative her relationship with D will fall apart anyway?

I know it probably sounds like D has also been manipulative too through this, but I'm willing to bet 90% of the way he's acted has been influenced by N. She creates situations and makes people think what she wants them to think. I don't blame him much therefore.

Either way I think S, E and T all have a right to know what N is like, I just worry I won't be believed. I really massively struggle with these kind of group politics situations.
 
Sounds like a lot of drama. Ive witnessed a lot of this gossip, drama, and backstabbing in the local poly and fet community. Lots of game playing going on. I personally prefer to stay out of it 100%. That is what I would do if I were you
 
Re:
"How Should I Deal with a Manipulator?"
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Run away. As fast and as far as possible.

It's not your job, nor your duty, to inform the world (or anyone in it) of N's true colors. Especially when such mudslinging is likely to get mud splashed back on you. Don't engage in gossip (regardless of how true the gossip is), it only lowers you down to N's level.

Sure it sucks if S, E, and/or T get burned by N because you didn't warn them, but that's really not your problem. You've had your turn getting burned by N. Remove yourself from the fire and if someone wants to know what your perspective or opinion is, they'll ask you.

Sorry you got screwed man. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and focus on living your own life. Pick your battles cautiously.

Regards,
Kevin T.
 
Seriously? It all sounds like the behavior of a bunch of two year olds. My advice is to stick to the higher path. Don't get sucked into their bad behavior by adding in your own desire for revenge. It makes you just as manipulative as they are.
 
The initials make this whole post a pain in the ass to follow.

It reads like high school drama.

Why invite drama and those who create it in your life?
 
Dagferi said:
The initials make this whole post a pain in the ass to follow.

It reads like high school drama.

Why invite drama and those who create it in your life?
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Yeah, I honestly couldn't keep track of who's who in this because of that.
Too many people, too much drama, and the short answer... why bother? Too much work for too little return in this case.

It's not your responsibility to manage other peoples' relationships.
 
To me this reads like chaos manufacture and like you are being hoovered into N's drama. You do not HAVE to deal with N drama. You are not obligated to do anything with N. You can back away and NOT deal with N or N's way of going. Simply check out of their whole soap opera. Keep better boundaries.

Be polite if you bump into N, but don't try to be close friends with N. That would be what I would do.

For your OWN emotional management?

I took the easy way out and went on a date behind her back... just to find out if there was anything there with this other girl.
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I get that you are upset with N for telling S, but you know what? I hope you are upset with yourself too. It is appropriate for the situation to feel upset things if you broke an agreement with your partner S at the time. I get it was a mistake. But let's call it what it is.

Had you not cheated on your agreements with S, there wouldn't be anything for N to tell.

Had you not gotten sucked into the "cozy" sharing of stuff with N (who gets much too tight too fast from the sound of it) you would not have been tempted to reveal data you were still sorting out to someone who is a messy person.

You take personal responsibility for your stuff. Getting back at N for telling for revenge to make her feel yucky because you felt or feel yucky... that's a childish way of going. You could aspire to step up from that way of going. :(

I see that you wanted comfort and help dealing with the S problems at that time... but seek better better ways than breaking agreements. Seek better quality people for that comfort and help. N sounds... just not it. :(

You were in a vulnerable state -- I get that. I mean that feedback kindly, I am not judging or anything. :eek:

I am lifting up that it is your responsibility to recognize when you are vulnerable and choose to stay away from messy people when in that state. For your OWN well being. :(

There are messed up people in the world. You could learn to be more selective about the company you keep and how close/tight you are with them.

Just because someone has chosen YOU for confidante doesn't mean you automatically accept the role to be theirs or accept the scope they want to give you.

  • You can decline entirely and ask them to please stop telling you things that are inappropriate.
  • You could clarify what you are up for and what you are NOT. It is ok to tell you this much about these things, but not THAT much and not THOSE things.
  • You have personal limitations for what you can take. Could choose to obey your own limit.

Separate but related issue... Just because you are someone's confidante doesn't mean they automatically have the skills to be yours or that they are appropriate for you to share with.

  • You could decline sharing with them at all.
  • You could seek better skilled, more appropriate people to share your problems with.

Chalk it up as a learning experience. Grow those discernment skills. Ask people to share less with you -- TMI stuff. Keep better boundaries. N herself and anyone within 1 degree of N? Maybe 2 degrees? Put on your mental "messy people" list -- be polite, but not tight. No TMI. If they TMI you could say "I am sorry. I am doing some personal healing at this time. This is too much info for me right now. Please do not share this stuff with me. I do not want to trigger my stress/anxiety. We need to change the topic. What would you like to talk about instead?"

Just shut it down right then and there.

Let go of your want for revenge. Just live your life as a decent person and keep distance from N. Other people can figure out N for themselves. She does a good job with the chaos manufacture -- it doesn't take long.

Hang in there...

Galagirl
 
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Thanks for the help :)

I have aspergers and suck at understanding peoples motives and emotions, I can deal with facts and can understand the emotions if I can see the logic behind them but stuff like this confuses me. In short group politics generally I am terrible at.

I think telling people for revenge is a bad idea. I still love S though and it's hard to sit back and watch her get hurt by N while knowing about it all... but like I say things are so precarious at the moment there I don't want to do anything to destabilise it.
 
I get that you are upset with N for telling S, but you know what? I hope you are upset with yourself too. It is appropriate for the situation to feel upset things if you broke an agreement with your partner S at the time. I get it was a mistake. But let's call it what it is.

Had you not cheated on your agreements with S, there wouldn't be anything for N to tell.[\quote]

I agree. You are right. I shouldn't have done it. I hadn't planned to get into this here but I feel now I should. S was flitting between definitely not being ok with me dating and then trying to be ok with it providing we discussed it.

When we discussed it she wanted to know what my intentions were with this girl and I said I didn't know. She started then asking if I didn't know then why was I bothering with all the effort of dating? I wasn't going to bring this up because frankly it's all stuff we have made a lot of progress on - we've realised we see dating differently; I see meeting new people as fun, she sees it as stressful.

At the time however we weren't that enlightened. I figured the only way I was going to get those answers was to find them out for myself. So I redrew my boundaries, promised myself I wouldn't kiss anyone or ask them out for a second date without speaking with S first. Then I took the plunge and went for it.

As I say there was zero spark that first time. I kinda gave a summary above since I felt it needed it but for clarity this did happen twice with 2 separate girls. Nothing of note actually happened on either occasion. But (as bad as it sounds to say this) it still felt great to have had ownership of the decision to go for a drink with each of them.

I was wrong to do it. We were both communicating badly and I convinced myself that this was acceptable. It wasn't. I shouldn't have done it. I do feel bad for it. However through everything that has happened S and I have both learnt a huge amount about ourselves and each other. If we can rebuild one day and be stronger than we ever have been then at least we can turn the whole thing into a positive(ish) learning experience.
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LondonGuy, everything is a learning experience. Sounds like you learned. :)
 
Yup. We all learn along the way and hopefully move closer to being our best selves.

If time were beads on a string? Call it now, the near future, and then the next future.

Now? Since being in the thick of group hooha right now causes YOU wacky, step out of the line of fire away from the heat for a while.

Near future? Once you are calmer and more secure emotionally and more stable from taking a time out from all this wacky.... could assess at THAT point if only with S you want to have a heart to heart about your feelings about N. Don't just dump it on her, ask if she's willing to have that kind of conversation or not. If not, let it go. If yes, step carefully but have it. Or maybe by that point she's made the discovery herself already. Worry about it at THAT point in time.

Further out future? Hopefully you and S can arrive at a place where you can try a romance again, with improved communication skills and new understanding of each other. Don't rush it.
I still love S though and it's hard to sit back and watch her get hurt by N while knowing about it all
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I am sorry. Yes. It is hard.

One thing at a time here though. Can't cover "the whole string" in one go. Could give each step it's time and space.

Hang in there!
Galagirl
 
ARRRRRGHHHHHH - I'm sorry in advance, I just needed chance to rant.

So today I helped my ex S to move house away from London and back to her primary (they had been long distance for a year). I was happy to help and happy to just be spending time with her again. But it was a stressful time for both of us and things just bubbled a little.

She said something about what a wonderful person N was and I kinda scoffed a bit and I was told not to speak badly of her best friend. Then later when we were alone she went and said about how I should be really grateful of N because when S was at her lowest N was there to pick her up again.

I said that she was only in that low point because N split us up. She said no, that I split us up; it was entirely my fault because I cheated. The only thing N ever did was tell the truth.

This annoyed me on 2 fronts - 1) because that's the one thing N hasn't done about her own relationships

2) why did I feel the need to cheat? Well there's a few reasons for that but lets break them down...

* Communication within our relationship. When it was good it was amazing. When it was bad it was terrible. There's a quote which Loving Radiance said on here which stuck with me - "Always aim to see the best in your partner". I always have done and that's helped me forgive a lot of things and I've always understood that her behaviour is coming from a place of insecurity rather than malice.

However when we would go into arguments I would repeatedly get the feeling that she would fear the argument to the point that she would shut down all her abilities to listen and reason and instead argue as aggressively as she could against what she expected me to say. I think it's a safety thing, arguing against what she expects me to say ensures she will never be surprised and she can stay in control to an extent... but it's extremely frustrating. Sometimes I am able to interrupt her ranting at me and say something along the lines of what did you think I was trying to say?

At which point she says something. I explain she's wrong. Then say may I try to explain? I'm then met with "FINE, what were you trying to say?" Arms folded, eyes rolling, brow furrowed... totally pissed off body language.

It makes communication impossible. It really doesn't help me, I struggle enough with communication anyway and I find it really hard to deal with when I am being shouted at for something someone thinks I think - when it's not actually what I think and possibly not even what I said (certainly not what I was trying to say). As a result of this cycle I felt VERY alone, VERY unlistened to and I felt like what I was trying to say had no validity. I know it's not a good reason to go seeking something but for the last 6 months or so of our relationship I had been seeking something out to stop feeling lonely.

* Rules and Intentions. S originally vetoed me dating someone I had begun to fall for last year. So I actually backed off the whole idea of polyamory for a month or two. When we came back to it S didn't want me dating people within her social circle, which to all intents and purposes meant not dating within the poly/kinky scene in London thus forcing me to only date either people I met through OKC or long distance.

In fairness both of these options could have been viable - I struggle with meeting people I click with in real life and generally suck at reading the body language of strangers so internet dating appeals. Similarly I am up north visiting my mums once every month or 2 anyway so dating up there is fine (except that because it is countryside the dating pool there consists of pensioners, conservatives, farmers and farm animals - none of which are my thing). So I persevered.

Then when I found two people both at the same time that I was half interested in I decided I wanted to go for a drink to find out, so I asked S if she would be ok with me going out for a drink with one of them... S asked me 20 questions about it but then said ok... she was ok with me going for a drink with one. I pointed out that I hadn't actually provided her with any criteria about either girl so surely it was acceptable for me to go for a drink with both to find out whether there was a spark and she said no. Her reason was she was ok with the first girl but not about the second because she didn't know about it - yet I was there stood in front of her speaking about both at the first appropriate opportunity.

Ultimately, because of the argument, she said no to both girls and then was angry at me for not being appreciative of the 'progress' she made.

2 months passed and then I met someone else via OKC - I spoke to her and more questions. She wanted to know what my intentions were with the girl before I had even met up with her, something I found ridiculous. I couldn't answer that and explained this to her, but her comeback was "why are you even bothering to meet up with her then?"

I tried SOOOOOO hard to work towards putting her mind at ease over the idea of me dating. I suggested a three date rule for me. I promised I wouldn't kiss on a first date, I would speak with S and update her before even arranging a second date... second date I would be allowed to kiss and if all went well then third date I could do whatever I wanted. I thought this was aimed specifically towards dealing with her insecurities regarding the unknowns of me dating. It really hurt for me though because it felt very prescribed, restrictive and wasn't my natural way of dating.

Anyway it wasn't good enough. S still wasn't happy with this proposal and put her foot down.

So when I met another girl through OKC I decided you know what, that first drink - I'm not planning on kissing no matter how right it feels - so it's cool. I'm not really breaking any morals in doing it and I have these rules in place. I told a little white lie about my plans for the evening and then went out. It felt GREAT. It was the first time in ages I had made a decision about my lovelife entirely myself. There was zero spark but it was great to be in control and fun to meet new people.

On the note of meeting new people this is something where I think we've realised we are different. I love meeting new people and enjoy dating. S hates it. She finds it a weird concept and one that confuses her, gives her butterflies, makes her feel awkward... I think for her realising that I see it differently has helped her process my need for it. Unfortunately she was only able to get there in this understanding after we split up.

* I am a polyamorous person. I enjoy the process of falling in love with someone and feel that in no way shape or form does this prohibit me from loving my existing partners. I love the security, familiarity, bond, intimacy, life, belonging I have within established relationships... but I love the exciting rush of when something is new and the feeling of falling for someone without having anything there holding you back.

Conversely S tented to describe us as having a polyamorous relationship. I think she identified it on a relationship level whereas I identified it on a personal level. The result was that we ended up having quite different ideas of how these things should work. They were by no means insurmountable differences though and I tried my hardest to be accepting of the limits she felt she needed in place for her to feel secure within our relationship. The problem is that each time I met someone there was a new set of reasons why it was a no. This really just proved to me that the things she was saying were just excuses and the fact was she wasn't ok with it.

Insecurity is a big thing for her and it's only when Gala Girl once explained on here the link between jealousy and fear that it all made sense in my head. Basically when you are insecure about something (an exam, a social situation, confronting a phobia... whatever) it helps to try to stay in control in the situation. But when you're insecure within your relationship and you aim to handle this (either consciously or sub consciously) by controlling your partner then this is not healthy for either of you.

So anyways, those are my main key reasons for wanting to date... ultimately I did so behind her back but I did so in a way which kept within what I thought seemed like sensible morals - namely, I aimed only to ever go out for a first drink without her knowledge and only so that I could happily answer her questions knowing exactly what it was I wanted. I also promised myself to stick to the 3 date policy, so first drink, deal with questions, arrange second date and get a kiss, update S, arrange third date... feel on road to freedom?

The flip side of this is that she told me that last Tuesday she met a new guy in a bar and went home with him that same night. She talked to me about it which is fine but I tried to talk to her about the way she had done that to her other partner M and tried to ask how she would feel if I had done that? She explained that her relationship with him had very different rules to ours... but it really did feel like she wanted one rule for herself and one rule for others. M had met someone last year too who she also vetoed but I've never really discussed it much because it's none of my business - I have strong views on it, but it's not my place.

As for her meeting this guy in the bar and going back with him I found it a bit weird to be hearing about it. I get polyamory, falling in love with multiple people makes perfect sense. But I struggle to understand the appeal of being polysexual - why would a person want to have meaningless sex with others if they could get perfectly amazing meaningful sex already? Anyway I'm glad I did confront this over the last week because I began to see that for her it hadn't been meaningless and she'd had fun so I couldn't really begrudge her it. I guess I've grown up a bit over the last week.
 
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Either way as I see it we both made a lot of mistakes in our relationship, we both messed up and N was the ultimate trigger ending it all. I don't blame S for things falling apart. I don't hold her mistakes against her. But I do want her to know that they had an affect on me, that I was struggling with some things emotionally at the time we were dating and that those things influenced me. I handled them badly, I made mistakes and I am sorry I hurt her.

But do I agree with her saying "N wasn't the reason we split up, YOU were the reason we split up"? Do I think I am totally to blame? No. And the fact that she has said it has hurt me and angered me and made me question everything I thought she had learnt throughout the last 2 months.
 
It's easy to blame N; you don't love her. No doubt she stirred the pot. But from here it sounds as if you and S are completely incompatible, and rather than recognize this you got into a power struggle over how your relationship would be run. Then you each had justifications for why you behaved as you did. Bottom line, you are each responsible for your own behaviors.

S blaming you while not recognizing her contribution is immature.
 
It sounds like S placed a lot of restrictions on you -- enough restrictions to force you to be exclusive to her de facto. Since you seem to be a free spirit and want to be able to pursue multiple relationships without all those restrictions, I have to think that S was probably a bad match for you. Maybe she was a good match in many other ways, but when someone keeps you in a virtual cage that's a pretty serious issue.

It's good if you gained a better understanding of what works for S. I think you and she can probably still foster a reasonably good friendship with each other. In the meantime, you are now free to date whomever you desire, from whatever dating pool works. I believe that's a good thing.
 
I wouldn't ever describe myself as a free spirit. I love the really close intimacy and bond which can only really develop over time, I love having really strong, stable, solid relationships which last... and I feel really quite protective over those relationships (even if I'm not possessive over the person themselves). It's why I have been so angry with N.

I wouldn't describe myself as a free spirit though as that seems to me to indicate a dislike of this sort of solidity?

All I ever wanted was fairness, for me to be able to make my own decisions about my relationships and for my relationship with S to be healthier.

Now the point about us being healthy is one which I think I could have communicated better. Last year when she vetoed me dating this other girl I got really upset about it. I came on here and started asking for advice on constructive ways to help her deal with jealousy. Loving Radiance, GalaGirl and Kevin - I have to say you three ROCKED as your advice was invaluable. But people like London and a couple of others basically just told me that she was a crazy person and this really hurt S.

She took the view that I had received those responses because of the way I had written it and she developed a very poor opinion of the people on this website and a total dislike of me seeking advice from here. Which is a shame because I am more than capable of sifting through and deciding what advice I think has value, and I did get some extremely valuable advice.

Anyway whenever I tried to approach these subjects with her with a view to building trust, improving the health of our relationship she would always get angry and defensive. She would always just think that I was wanting to talk about it because I wanted to date the other girl and since she had already said no she felt her boundaries were being pushed. Maybe it's my fault for not communicating it well enough, maybe it's her fault for not assuming the best in me - probably it's somewhere in between.

I did want us to be healthier, not purely so that I could date others (though if that was the result of her being healthier then this would have been good too). I wanted us to be healthy just because things were so much easier when we were. When we were healthy and happy and there wasn't this tension hanging over things then we were awesome together - in those times we were the most exciting, loving, wonderful relationship I've ever had. I really miss those times now.

I think to say we weren't compatible because S was insecure is a bit of a cop out for me. It feels like I'm saying "hey, yeh - we're not compatible because you need a stick to walk". I am happy to be an emotional crutch to my partner if they need support. I am happy to be there for them doing anything they suggest to help work through their insecurity. But I will no longer tolerate any partner using their insecurity as fuel for them controlling me - that to me is them giving up on dealing with their insecurity and giving up ownership of it. Plus running away from insecurities does nothing to address them long term.
 
I think to say we weren't compatible because S was insecure is a bit of a cop out for me. It feels like I'm saying "hey, yeh - we're not compatible because you need a stick to walk". I am happy to be an emotional crutch to my partner if they need support. I am happy to be there for them doing anything they suggest to help work through their insecurity. But I will no longer tolerate any partner using their insecurity as fuel for them controlling me - that to me is them giving up on dealing with their insecurity and giving up ownership of it. Plus running away from insecurities does nothing to address them long term.
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I think I am hearing...

"I am willing to help support my partner as she works on sorting out her feelings and in becoming more confident/secure in herself, in me, and in our relationship. To work on building trust.

I am NOT willing to stick around if she's never going to address it or expects me to "carry her" in a relationship and not hold up her end of it."​

Is that about it? If so, then it seems like you are processing yourself -- the fact that at this time you and S are just not going to be a romantic fit. She's got places to grow in first. You also have places to grow in -- and seem to recognize that your communication skills could be improved.

I hope you feel better for the vent. Hang in there!

Galagirl
 
GalaGirl said:
I think I am hearing...

"I am willing to help support my partner as she works on sorting out her feelings and in becoming more confident/secure in herself, in me, and in our relationship. To work on building trust.

I am NOT willing to stick around if she's never going to address it or expects me to "carry her" in a relationship and not hold up her end of it."​

Is that about it? If so, then it seems like you are processing yourself -- the fact that at this time you and S are just not going to be a romantic fit. She's got places to grow in first. You also have places to grow in -- and seem to recognize that your communication skills could be improved.

I hope you feel better for the vent. Hang in there!

Galagirl
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Pretty much spot on :)

And yes, we both have things we need to work on about ourselves and hurt we need to process. I'd love to think that one day in some way we could have a future... but all that processing and personal development is an absolute pre-requisite for both of us.
 
So I've had a fairly mixed day - all very much poly related and just am feeling the need to write and unwind about it.

I sent S a message yesterday saying I had been a bit hurt by what she had said over the weekend; the "you have nothing to be angry at N for, you broke us up, not her" comment... S got back to me today and we had a dozen messages go back and forth.

Me explaining the frame of mind I was in at the time I went behind her back, her highlighting the differences between our relationship, her relationship with M and Ns relationships. Me highlighting the similarities and asking how she would have felt in these situations? Her telling me she never wanted me to not be allowed to be poly (scoff!) all the usual stuff.

It also ended up with her talking about how much she had been hurt by the fact that I had lied.

I feel like I'm in double figures now for the amount of times I've apolgised for this. I am sorry that I lied, I hated lying, I hated it at the time and I hated the fact that the person I was lying to was someone I loved. So why did I? Well I had convinced myself that the only way I was going to be able to answer HER questions was to use my initiative to find the answers.

Now this is where I need to become really clear. My actions are my actions, I take full responsibility for them; it was my decision to reach this conclusion and it was my decision to act on this conclusion. I hold my hands up here. With hindsight I can see that I shouldn't have done it. I couldn't see it at the time (I still can't to be honest) but there should have been another way through the situation.

I do however want her to understand my frame of mind at the point of making that decision. I want her to understand all the factors that made up that conclusion. If she can't understand that then she will never be able to make peace with what happened, nor will she be able to learn from it. By saying this it is not removing the responsibility - just building a more 3d picture.

How long am I going to have to wait though before I hear the phrase "I was unreasonable with the rules and questions I was firing at you, I can see now how that was difficult for you to cope with and I'm sorry that I placed you in that position"? I'd like to have heard this by now. I want her to know that saying this phrase would in no way absolve me of my responsibility and it would prove to me she has learnt from everything and come out with a greater understanding about the impact she has... but alas she just says me finding those questions hard is no excuse for what I did (when did I try to say it was?).

It hurts frankly.

Anyway this evening (also poly related) I went along to the local poly meetup group and met some lovely people. Kinda wanted to surround myself with other poly people and remind myself this can work long term :) It was great

We had a chat on our table about when is it appropriate to pass comment on your partners other relationship? I said I felt almost never, it's not my business, there have been times when I kinda felt like I was uncomfortable with something about the way S and M were interacting but I didn't share it because it's not my place. However the attitude of the other people around the table was very different - they were saying that they want to be the best person they can be for all of their partners and metamours, so if someone wants to pull them aside and have a quiet word with them about something and say "I really think you could have handled X better, have you thought about it from the other persons perspective?" then they would have actually been grateful because it would have helped them.

So anyway we got chatting about this one time which had shaped how I saw S and Ms relationship. M has always identified as mono, but while S and M were long distance he started moving in new circles and getting close to others. M began to like another girl and S freaked out - she saw this as the first step towards him leaving her and put her foot down. He then said "I give up on this whole Polyamory thing" and stormed off.

Now I tend to look at Sexuality, Kink, relationship preferences and gender as being spectrums where there are very few people (if any) that are completely polarised. I think there are many people on here who would agree with this theory. At any one moment in time you can establish where you are on these scales and use various words, terms, labels and identifiers to communicate that to other people, but it is only EVER a snapshot of where you are at that point. Now some people may stay in one very small area of those spectrums for most of their life with little or no fluctuation, but others may bounce around those spectrums like a pinball machine. Take the non monogamy scale for instance - can we really all say we were poly from birth?

She took away the opportunity for him to learn, develop and explore as a person and grow into a better version of himself. I don't mean to say that by being poly he would be better, but I do mean to say that by trying new experiences he would have been more enlightened about life and about who he was. He was denied the chance to grow and develop and that disturbed me.
 
Now 5 months on from this all initially blowing up!! N is still being manipulative, S is proving to me more than ever how vulnerable she is, how much she has a need to be loved... Unfortunately N is giving her that (to an extent) but I think half the reason is because she knows their closeness hurts me. I do not trust that little bitch one bit and I guarantee she has an agenda.

N has also tried manipulating others against me and tried to get me banned from some events - including one of my favourite events which is actually run by E. Shes continuing her behaviour in some kind of malicious vendetta.

I've started dating someone new who is wonderful; she's smart, funny, caring, supportive, understanding, gorgeous, kinky, amazing in bed and has just generally blown me away. We've been totether nearly 3 months and so far no drama, no silly arguments, no over reactions... Not even any threat of any of that crap!!

Then 2 months ago S and I realised we still had feelings and tried talking about getting back together... I said there was a lot of hurt there and I would need to go slow. Then within a week she was demanding to be on an equal footing with my other partner. She pressurised the situation, caused a big argument and my defence mechanisms kicked in and I cut her out. I just could not cope with that pressure.

Anyways it's made things tough - I think there is probably very little chance of S and I getting back together now but I don't care in all honesty because I think it would take a lot for her not to be that needy, demanding, over reacting drama queen. Besides I'm the happiest I've ever been right now!!

So as it happens I'm also moving away from London for work :) since I'm removing myself from London I figured there is no harm in offering relevant parties access to the truth, it's not going to bite me in the arse in the same way it could if I were still here - it's their choice whether to read it or not/whether to believe it or not/whether to act on it or not.
 
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