happy to find this place! :)

[kdt26417]

Re:

"'Lora isn't going to start therapy right now because she's afraid' isn't acceptable to me."

Ah. That clarifies things.

To let you know, I also grew up in a house where my mom was constantly screaming at my dad (when she wasn't taking it out on the kids). So I do sympathize with your past trauma and present triggers.

And, if you split homes, I don't think that will be all bad. Then Lora can pull herself together on her own timetable, and you won't have to worry about it.

I would recommend you not involve yourself in issues between Jon and Lora more than you have to. Just my opinion.

 

[reflections]

Sounds like you know the next steps to take.

I will add that I think there's a piece in all this about how Lora treats Jon shitty. You want that to end, but really, that's their relationship - not yours. Would I be pissed off if either of my partners were getting the short stick in the relationship? Of course, but that's not my business. I probably would voice my concern to my partner, but Jon seems to already know it's unhealthy and he has decided it is worth sticking it out. Would it impact the view I have of my partne for staying in an unhealthy relationship? Possibly. In the end, it's about what choices you can make to step away from the drama, moreso than requiring Jon and Lora to have a healthier relationship. That's on them, not you. Especially if you decide living there isn't right for you.

 

[LizziE]

I would recommend you not involve yourself in issues between Jon and Lora more than you have to. Just my opinion.

I totally agree, which is part of why I feel really awkward about doing/saying *anything* (including walk out), when they're fighting. I don't like it, but it's not my relationship. I cannot fathom parts of their relationship, but since it's not mine, it's not really mine to fathom, it's just "mine" in terms of "am I OK being steeped in their relationship because of living together".

The one time I did get involved was earlier this year, when things came to a head the first time. And that was because Lora would say REALLY awful things to Jon, like she knew that he was fucking with her just to fuck with her, and that he was as awful to her as her drug-addicted Ex was.

It got to a point where I just couldn't deal with hearing her say things like that anymore (And Jon felt pretty horrible about it too, and had told her that on numerous occasions). So anyway, I told her that if I heard that shit come out of her mouth again, I was going to intervene and say "OK, this argument is no longer even slightly productive. You both need to separate". If she tried to continue to fight with him, OR had a problem with me intervening, then we had to stop living together, because I absolutely could NOT stomach listening to that garbage anymore.

She cried a lot when we had this talk and told me that she knew it was wrong and didn't know what was wrong with her and that she'd always had anger problems and she didn't want to hurt Jon, but she just got so angry. This was when she promised to start looking for solo therapy and go.

Anyways, since we had that talk, she hasn't said those things again. Now most of their fights are couched in terms of "she's concerned about what it says for their relationship" and she still always says that Jon has done something wrong/hurt her, but she doesn't actually call him names or compare him to her ex or say he's just trying to fuck with her.

On one hand, that looks like a kind of progress to me. Sort of. Maybe? Or did she just switch tacks to an abuse that's more nebulous, and if so, was that a conscious decision or just that as she's really upset and wanting to lash out and knows that certain things aren't acceptable, she's flounder to say something that lets out her anger, but isn't on the "we do not say these things" list?

I have no idea.

 

[LizziE]

It just occurred to me, on the subject of how Jon is a willing participant in his relationship with Lora...

I've met a number of Jon's former partners (I've gotten to be pretty good friends with two of them). None of his past partners that I've met have any of the major dependency signs/behaviors that Lora does.

When I emailed Jon last night, I brought up (again) that I can't tell sometimes if he realizes how much dependency Lora has/parenting Jon does with Lora on a daily basis. On one hand, I agree with the "people choose their relationships and he can choose whatever kind of relationship he wants" thought.

But OTOH, when I see that his relationship with Lora has - on top of her being abusive - also signs of Dependent Personality Disorder (http://outofthefog.net/Disorders/DPD.html - I sent Jon a link to that months ago when I saw it on a different forum), it is wrong to point it out, because he is consenting to be in a relationship with Lora, knowing all it entails?

Basically, where is the blurry line between people having all sorts of relationship dynamics that don't necessarily work for everybody, but are emotionally/mentally healthy/reasonable and relationship dynamics that are unhealthy and out of balance?

I know that, in the end, even IF a relationship is unhealthy and out of balance, I have no right to dictate Jon's relationships to him. But I have told him that his relationship with Lora looks very unhealthy to me - which he does agree with, and says they're working on. And like I've said before, he does look like progress is being made. I think my biggest concern is that sometimes it seems like the bar started so low that large amounts of progress still haven't put the relationship in a place that I'd be comfortable living with for the rest of my life, and I want Jon (and Lora) to understand that while progress is great, we're still nowhere near "there" for me.

And then I worry that I'm being overly demanding and ridiculous, again, because the bar started so low that...like...I'm a "meet in the middle" kind of person. Usually, in reasonable conflicts, I try to meet the other person in the middle. But in this situation, the middle is still square in "really shitty and I don't want to live like this", so it feels like we have to skew really far onto my side for it to be livable. That feels wrong to me, because it's not meeting in the middle. It makes me feel like I'm asking for too much. But then when I think about where we started, and when I think about the things that a normal, mostly-together person can handle for him/herself, I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

It generally appears that Lora and Jon don't think I'm being unreasonable either. But I still worry. I'm probably too good at worrying.

 

[kdt26417]

Well, how about the idea of keeping it simple and stating that Lora must start getting individual counseling for herself if you are to keep living under the same roof? Perhaps set a reasonable time limit before which her counseling should start?

In the meantime, I wouldn't talk much (to Jon or Lora) about how unhealthy their relationship is. They already know how you feel and even agree, but they both obviously want to continue it anyway. The only thing you need to do is decide what minimum standards you need them to meet in order to keep living with them.

And it's up to you, but personally I think leaving the room when they're bickering is a perfectly reasonable thing for you to do, and a way to reduce your involvement in their unhealthy dynamic. The whole point is that you don't want to be around when they're doing that; it stresses you out. They should be able to understand that.

 

[reflections]

Well, how about the idea of keeping it simple and stating that Lora must start getting individual counseling for herself if you are to keep living under the same roof? Perhaps set a reasonable time limit before which her counseling should start?

In the meantime, I wouldn't talk much (to Jon or Lora) about how unhealthy their relationship is. They already know how you feel and even agree, but they both obviously want to continue it anyway. The only thing you need to do is decide what minimum standards you need them to meet in order to keep living with them.

And it's up to you, but personally I think leaving the room when they're bickering is a perfectly reasonable thing for you to do, and a way to reduce your involvement in their unhealthy dynamic. The whole point is that you don't want to be around when they're doing that; it stresses you out. They should be able to understand that.

Completely seconded!