Problems with definition of 'safe sex'

[IndieSolo]

What I would expect is for us to all sit down together and have a reasoned discussion about safer sex agreements.

This sounds reasonable (within the type of poly network where everybody knows each other), and I am sure that Mal expected Djinn to ask for such a discussion instead of deciding on her own to have unprotected sex with Aladdin, without any preliminary conversation about it among all the people who could be affected by it. In fact A2Poly says that Mal brought up numerous conversations with Djinn about safe sex and Djinn never spoke up during those conversations about wanting to go bareback with Aladdin. Instead, she just went ahead and did what she wanted, only telling her husband some time after the fact, which really seems sneaky and uncaring. Now she is seeing the consequences of her actions.

 

[A2Poly]

If Alladin tested negative, and has been using condoms with all his other partners ever since then ... well ... then ...

Why, do you think Alladin's lying about that part?

I actually don't, I think he's a pretty responsible person, who wouldn't put his partner at risk without cause. But that's not actually the point.

And I DO think that sex even with condoms is not risk free, and that as nycindie said testing once a year is not enough. Multiple hookups - condom included - increases your risk for disease, especially if you don't know all of your partners before you have sex. Living that life style is his choice, and I (for one) totally get it. Djinn has chosen to bareback with him (her right!) meaning that she feels that risk level is acceptable. I'm totally ok with that too. She has every right to trust her partner.

But why do Mal (and further down the chain, I) have to trust not just him, but every one of his hookups? Mal has said he is not comfortable with that. That's not punishment, that's just stating a risk comfort level. No one is asking anyone to change what THEY are doing, in fact Mal is willing to change what he is doing (and start using a condom with his wife) because he recognizes that it IS her right to be bareback with anyone she wants (so long as her partner CONSENTS to be bareback with her).

Stop mixing the two things up. He's upset about the breach of trust, not about the action of being bareback with Aladdin. Mal should have been given the opportunity to discuss it, and make clear his risk comfort level before it happened. He wasn't. And even after the fact her reaction to hearing his comfort level was to try and coerce Mal into continuing to have bareback sex with her (something outside of his risk comfort zone) by threatening to withhold sex all together unless he goes bareback.... But somehow MAL is the bad guy? Can you run that by me again?

 

[MightyMax]

Nobody is saying that Mal is a bad guy. Djinn absolutely handled this the wrong way too. It's just that nobody seems to be giving Aladdin any choice here or considering him in the decision making. For instance, if he decided to stop with the casual hook ups, your worry about STDs would be moot, right? Have you asked him if he would be prepared to do that before you ban him from fluid bonding? What CHOICE have you given Aladdin in this?

I can't help thinking that some of this is about shaming people who have casual sex though, but it's not the real issue. As long as you give him a choice and stop making assumptions and decisions on his behalf, it will restore some balance here.

Also, condoms are really effective. They aren't totally effective, but they are very effective. I don't think your caution here is representative of the actual risk level of sex with barriers and regular testing. Say the chance is 1/50'000, you're acting as if there is a 1/100 chance. But that's just a subjective interpretation.

 

[MightyMax]

This sounds reasonable (within the type of poly network where everybody knows each other), and I am sure that Mal expected Djinn to ask for such a discussion instead of deciding on her own to have unprotected sex with Aladdin, without any preliminary conversation about it among all the people who could be affected by it. In fact A2Poly says that Mal brought up numerous conversations with Djinn about safe sex and Djinn never spoke up during those conversations about wanting to go bareback with Aladdin. Instead, she just went ahead and did what she wanted, only telling her husband some time after the fact, which really seems sneaky and uncaring. Now she is seeing the consequences of her actions.

It is always interesting to go back and review what the OP said in their initial post.

but apparently she believed that since Alladin had been tested last summer - as we all were - when they had unprotected sex the first time he was 'safe' and therefore barrier free WAS safe sex with him. He has told her that he used condoms with all his other partners, and that was good enough for her.

She never said there was any sneaking around, she said there was a discord in their beliefs about "safe sex". Quite common. One of my partners doesn't call it safe sex unless we are both wearing full body armour! Anything less is just sex.

 

[A2Poly]

Again: No one is 'banning' Aladdin from anything. And no one is shaming anyone for having multiple casual partners. No one is asking ANYONE to change their behaviour at all if they don't want to. Not having barrier free sex is not a right, and stoping having barrier free sex is NOT a punishment.

I don't need to 'give Aladdin a choice' because he has always had one and always will, with each of his partners. It isn't up to me or Mal to 'give' or 'take away' anything from him. And neither of us has tried to do either. I'm discussing choices Mal has made for his own safety, and you seem to think those choices are detrimental to Aladdin in some way, as if Mal has 'laid down the law' to his wife and now she 'has' to tell all her partners she 'has' to use barriers with them, but that isn't what happened.

Mal told Djinn what his comfort level was, and gave her a choice: continue barrier free with one of us, not both. It is then up to her to discuss it with Aladdin and decide what to do. If in discussion with Djinn Aladdin offers to get retested, and offers to give up the hookups then Djinn can go back to Mal and tell him the facts have changed and then he can decide if the new facts are within his comfort level. Which I suspect they would be. But it still wouldn't be Mal forcing Aladdin to give up his other partners, it would still be Aladdin's choice. And Mal would still be within his right to continue to say he wants to use a barrier when having sex with Djinn, because his risk comfort level is HIS not Aladdin's and not Djinn's. It doesn't have to be a level that you or I or Djinn thinks is 'reasonable'. And Djinn would still have the right to decide not to have sex with Mal if he insists on a barrier. No one is taking way ANYONE's choices.

The point is you get to decide YOUR comfort level for safe sex, and Mal gets to decide his and I get to decide mine. If 1/50,000 still feels like to much risk for me, then that's my choice not yours. I am - by far! - not the most risk adverse person ever. I don't require gloves or dental dams for manual or oral sex for example, and I know more than one poster here does, as is their right.

I can't help wondering about how sexist this all is. If it was a woman saying she wouldn't have unprotected sex with her husband because she was uncomfortable with the risk level his behaviour exposed her to, I bet everyone would be telling her it is her right to protect herself.

 

[InfinitePossibility]

(And added to all of this, which I had forgotten until now is that Djinn is not on any other BC. Mal has had the snip, and I had surgery in November making me effectively sterile, but both Djinn and Aladdin are dealing with live rounds. Ugh.

This here would be of greatest concern to me and I agree - is very clear indication of irresponsible behaviour. If two individuals agree that their approach to risk around STDs allows them to behave in a particular way then that is one thing. They are risking themselves - up to them.

To knowingly run the risk of bringing a new life into the world without clear discussion with all parties directly involved is so breathtakingly irresponsible that if these were people I was involved with, I'd be seriously considering backing away from them in a big way. Doing that risks impacting on the wellbeing of everybody directly involved - including the unborn child.

I feel very strongly that children should be wanted and brought into the world by people who are willing and able to care for them well so that they can grow up having healthy, happy lives themselves. It seems to me that the possibility of having children is one that should be very very carefully thought out and considered. To do otherwise in an overpopulated and environmentally at risk world shows an incredible lack of care, thought and love.

IP

 

[InsaneMystic]

The point is you get to decide YOUR comfort level for safe sex, and Mal gets to decide his and I get to decide mine. If 1/50,000 still feels like to much risk for me, then that's my choice not yours. I am - by far! - not the most risk adverse person ever. I don't require gloves or dental dams for manual or oral sex for example, and I know more than one poster here does, as is their right.

I can't help wondering about how sexist this all is. If it was a woman saying she wouldn't have unprotected sex with her husband because she was uncomfortable with the risk level his behaviour exposed her to, I bet everyone would be telling her it is her right to protect herself.

Nailed it.

 

[MightyMax]

Again: No one is 'banning' Aladdin from anything. And no one is shaming anyone for having multiple casual partners. No one is asking ANYONE to change their behaviour at all if they don't want to. Not having barrier free sex is not a right, and stoping having barrier free sex is NOT a punishment.

I don't need to 'give Aladdin a choice' because he has always had one and always will, with each of his partners. It isn't up to me or Mal to 'give' or 'take away' anything from him. And neither of us has tried to do either. I'm discussing choices Mal has made for his own safety, and you seem to think those choices are detrimental to Aladdin in some way, as if Mal has 'laid down the law' to his wife and now she 'has' to tell all her partners she 'has' to use barriers with them, but that isn't what happened.

Mal told Djinn what his comfort level was, and gave her a choice: continue barrier free with one of us, not both. It is then up to her to discuss it with Aladdin and decide what to do. If in discussion with Djinn Aladdin offers to get retested, and offers to give up the hookups then Djinn can go back to Mal and tell him the facts have changed and then he can decide if the new facts are within his comfort level. Which I suspect they would be. But it still wouldn't be Mal forcing Aladdin to give up his other partners, it would still be Aladdin's choice. And Mal would still be within his right to continue to say he wants to use a barrier when having sex with Djinn, because his risk comfort level is HIS not Aladdin's and not Djinn's. It doesn't have to be a level that you or I or Djinn thinks is 'reasonable'. And Djinn would still have the right to decide not to have sex with Mal if he insists on a barrier. No one is taking way ANYONE's choices.

The point is you get to decide YOUR comfort level for safe sex, and Mal gets to decide his and I get to decide mine. If 1/50,000 still feels like to much risk for me, then that's my choice not yours. I am - by far! - not the most risk adverse person ever. I don't require gloves or dental dams for manual or oral sex for example, and I know more than one poster here does, as is their right.

I can't help wondering about how sexist this all is. If it was a woman saying she wouldn't have unprotected sex with her husband because she was uncomfortable with the risk level his behaviour exposed her to, I bet everyone would be telling her it is her right to protect herself.

It's clear that you're misunderstanding my points.

Let me tell you how it ideally works in my circles. We don't always get it right because we can't always fulfill ideals, but this is what we at least aim to do. Firstly, yes, of course, people feel differently about statistical risk. But you have to agree on what the risk actually is. You can't call a 1/2 chance of occurance a "low risk", regardless of whether you intend to take the risk. You have to acknowledge that there is a high risk of whatever occurance but explain why you intend to take it anyway. So in terms of the risk of sti transmission with barriers (between Mal and his other partner(s)), you have to agree that the risk is very low, because it is, and then explain why it's still too high for you two. Then you simply hope that the others at least understand, even if they don't share your views. What I've also found in these safe sex talks is that people tend to actually research to support their views and present factual information in the discussion. This helps everyone be on the same page and reduces arguments about incidence and routes of transmission.

Before we go any further, I'm not suggesting that you owe anyone any explanations, but in terms of sustaining a happy poly network, it usually helps to have these sorts of discussions. Preferably as a group. It often helps the members who feel a decision is not in their favour feel less resentful towards the people who want things that way.

I've never suggested that you're forcing Aladdin to do anything. I'm suggesting that you and Mal explain to him why you consider him to be of too higher risk for fluid bonding without taking other measures yourself. This is facilitating him in having an informed choice. Sure, he might enjoy fucking around, but given the choice, he might choose to curb his sexual activities to conform with the group he wishes to remain a part of. Again, no, you do not have to involve Aladdin in the decision making process at all. You can just assume that he will not want that because he is young and male. I just believe that's a good approach to polyamory, that's all. It highlights to both Djinn and Aladdin, that Aladdin has actively made choices in this process. Then Djinn can make her choices, Mal makes his and finally, you make yours. Not because you're least important but because you're furthest away from the main players in this.

A talk like this can go many ways: Djinn might take Mal's stance and use barriers with Aladdin. Mal might take Djinn's view and agree on a testing routine and let go of the fluid bonding restriction with Aladdin. Aladdin might decide to forgo his more casual liaisons to keep fluid bonding with Djinn under terms that Mal is comfortable with. But everyone gets a choice. Everyone is involved. Everyone counts.

 

[Tonberry]

I think Aladdin's choice is dependent on Djinn's. What I mean is that if Djinn agreed to use barriers with Aladdin anymore, then he would have a choice to reduce is other partners to make it bareback again. However, since she's refusing that, it's kind of irrelevant if Aladdin would be willing to reduce his other partners in order to keep it bareback, because whether he reduces his other partners or not, he can have bareback sex either way.

I actually think that what you are suggesting (basically Mal telling Aladdin "hey, can you have less partners so I can keep having bareback sex with Djinn?") is controlling and trying to apply pressure on him for an issue that isn't his in the first place. The issue here is the difference in comfort levels between Mal and Djinn. Asking Aladdin to reduce his partners to solve an issue between two other people reeks of couple privilege to me, quite honestly.

It's not about leaving him out of anything. I'm sure Djinn has been telling him about it if she believes it concerns him. And if he lives with Djinn and Mal, it's possible Mal has mentioned he was uncomfortable with the whole thing. But in the end, I don't think any responsibility is on Aladdin. He is entitled to his own choices and he informed Djinn of the risks. It's not his responsibility to tell his metamour that he stopped using condoms, he's not the one having sex with Mal. Again, bringing him into the discussion sounds to me a bit too much like "you have to follow our rules rather than make decisions about your health on your own" although I'm fairly sure you didn't mean it this way.

I think Aladdin should be told that there is a disagreement (just like A2Poly was told, although it concerns her health and safety and not his since he got to made an informed decision about barriers and A2Poly didn't), and if he suggests/offers to limit his partners it can definitely be an option, but telling a metamour that maybe he should have less partners? I honestly can't see that end well, especially since Aladdin has nothing to gain from it (as previously established, he gets bareback sex regardless).

 

[MightyMax]

I think Aladdin's choice is dependent on Djinn's. What I mean is that if Djinn agreed to use barriers with Aladdin anymore, then he would have a choice to reduce is other partners to make it bareback again. However, since she's refusing that, it's kind of irrelevant if Aladdin would be willing to reduce his other partners in order to keep it bareback, because whether he reduces his other partners or not, he can have bareback sex either way.

I actually think that what you are suggesting (basically Mal telling Aladdin "hey, can you have less partners so I can keep having bareback sex with Djinn?") is controlling and trying to apply pressure on him for an issue that isn't his in the first place. The issue here is the difference in comfort levels between Mal and Djinn. Asking Aladdin to reduce his partners to solve an issue between two other people reeks of couple privilege to me, quite honestly.

It's not about leaving him out of anything. I'm sure Djinn has been telling him about it if she believes it concerns him. And if he lives with Djinn and Mal, it's possible Mal has mentioned he was uncomfortable with the whole thing. But in the end, I don't think any responsibility is on Aladdin. He is entitled to his own choices and he informed Djinn of the risks. It's not his responsibility to tell his metamour that he stopped using condoms, he's not the one having sex with Mal. Again, bringing him into the discussion sounds to me a bit too much like "you have to follow our rules rather than make decisions about your health on your own" although I'm fairly sure you didn't mean it this way.

I think Aladdin should be told that there is a disagreement (just like A2Poly was told, although it concerns her health and safety and not his since he got to made an informed decision about barriers and A2Poly didn't), and if he suggests/offers to limit his partners it can definitely be an option, but telling a metamour that maybe he should have less partners? I honestly can't see that end well, especially since Aladdin has nothing to gain from it (as previously established, he gets bareback sex regardless).

I've never suggested that anyone should boss anyone else around. I said they should have a frank talk, if, after everyone explains what they are comfortable with and why, Aladdin decides he doesn't want to forgo casual liaisons, Djinn has to decide whether she wants to fluid bond with Aladdin or Mal. The rest of you have to make your decisions accordingly.

What I would be telling Aladdin if I were Djinn is that he is alienating my lover and not affording him the chance of an informed choice, nor is he acknowledging my perspective on the risk. And I refuse to pander to his unreasonable stance on the matter.

I don't think Djinn handled it correctly, but I also think that I would react very poorly to my partner being treated in a way I consider to be condescending. I wouldn't put it past me to say something unhelpful like "either fuck me bareback or not at all".

I think that the way they've made these decisions without including Aladdin is more indicative of couple privilege than my suggestion. He has simply been cast as the manwhore who would never contemplate giving up a fuck in order to sustain a fluid bonding arrangement with a long term partner.

 

[AlwaysGrowing]

I'm confused as to why Aladdin would be included in a discussion between Djinn and Mal. As I see it, there are three separate discussions and that is as it should be.

One between Mal and Djinn about their relationship.
One between Mal and A2 about theirs.
One between Djinn and Aladdin about theirs.

If I were in Aladdin's shoes, I'd be incredibly uncomfortable with my partner's partner deciding he needed to be part of the conversation. Unless that is a dynamic they've all chosen. I don't do group relationships, so I would have the conversation with MY partner and then let them discuss with others if necessary.

 

[MightyMax]

Well, they don't necessarily have to all sit down together, it's just far easier for everyone to speak for themselves. Otherwise it will be Djinn saying "I don't think your sex life is particularly risky, but Mal does" and Aladdin might want to challenge the scientific basis to Mal's argument or devise some sort of agreement for safer sex such as regular testing and barriers for new partners.

As long as Aladdin is allowed to be privy to all information and has the opportunity to make choices too, I don't think they absolutely have to be in the same room. As I said, if Djinn decides to stop barrier free sex with him because of his other sexual activities with other people, he may decide to forego the other liaisons unless certain criteria are met. I just think he should be afforded the opportunity to do so.

 

[kdt26417]

This is off-topic, but it's driving me nuts. Why is it "Alladin" in A2's siggy line, but "Aladdin" elsewhere? Arrrgh.

 

[A2Poly]

Before we go any further, I'm not suggesting that you owe anyone any explanations, but in terms of sustaining a happy poly network, it usually helps to have these sorts of discussions. Preferably as a group. It often helps the members who feel a decision is not in their favour feel less resentful towards the people who want things that way.

I think that is how it works in YOUR poly group. I don't think that is how it works in most other people's. And certainly is not how I would feel comfortable. I have no intention of discussing Djinn and Aladdin's sex life with them AT ALL. They are not my partners. This is not a "group relationship", it is a double "V" with Djinn the hinge between her two partners, and Mal the hinge between his tow partners. (Some people call it an "N" that's fine too, whatever).

I agree with Tonberry, what you describe strays too close to couple's privilege to me. Djinn doesn't get a say in what protection I do or do not choose to use, just because she is married to Mal. And Mal doesn't have a say in what protection Aladdin uses just because he is married to Djinn. I certainly don't have a say in what protection Aladdin uses just because he is having sex with the person who is having sex with the person I am having sex with! This is a conversation for each dyad to have between themselves.

You continue to use words like "banned", "punished" and "resentful" in relation to Aladdin's participation in sex with Djinn - all of which are very negative, and all of which imply that Mal can restrict Aladdin's participation in sex with Djinn in some way that is not acceptable to Djinn and/or Aladdin. But that is not true.

No one is doing anything that should make him feel any of those things. Djinn (and no one else) can decide if barrier free sex between her and Mal is more or less important than barrier free sex between her and Aladdin. Should she decide that barrier free sex with Mal is more important THEN she (and no one else) needs to discuss that with Aladdin, and he can then decided (himself, and no one else) if he still wants to have sex with her if it involves using a barrier, or if he wants to give up other partners to maintain barrier free status with her. At no point does Djinn need to say "I don't think your sex life is particularly risky, but Mal does", unless she wants to set up animosity between Mal and Aladdin. She could say something much less inflammatory like "I've decided to only have bareback with Mal", and own her participation in the decision and not blame Mal like a child, or not even bring Mal's name into it at all.

And I don't need to justify or explain WHY my risk tolerance is what it is to you, or to Aladdin, or to anyone - if they are a partner or not. It could be completely irrational, and I STILL would have a right to it and ALSO it isn't my job to help you deal with your reaction to my risk tolerance. The starting place should be respecting each persons boundaries - irrational or not - and each dyad can discuss their comfort level within the dyad.

Honestly, you should just be happy I'm willing to have sex with you at all... in full metal jackets or what ever other completely overboard protection I think I need to make me feel comfortable. And if you don't want to? Well, that's your choice, and I won't resent it either... because resentment comes from being denied something you think you are entitled to, but not only is no one entitled to barrier free sex, even if you've had it with that partner before, no one is entitled to sex AT ALL, even if you've had it with that partner before.

This is off-topic, but it's driving me nuts. Why is it "Alladin" in A2's siggy line, but "Aladdin" elsewhere? Arrrgh.

Because I spelled it wrong when I put it back in my sig. Thanks for pointing it out

This here would be of greatest concern to me and I agree - is very clear indication of irresponsible behaviour. ...

To knowingly run the risk of bringing a new life into the world without clear discussion with all parties directly involved is so breathtakingly irresponsible that if these were people I was involved with, I'd be seriously considering backing away from them in a big way. ...

I agree

 

[A2Poly]

I think, Mightymax, this comes down to you thinking that Aladdin makes the first decision (reduce partners/not) but I think that Djinn makes the first decision (barrier free sex with Aladdin or Mal). Because to my mind if Djinn picks barrier free sex with Aladdin as being the more important one nothing in Aladdin's life has to change. He doesn't have a choice to make because he keeps getting to do what they are already doing.

He may or may not offer to restrict his number of partners so Mal will agree to barrier free sex with Djinn again, but it is not his responsibility to think of that option and offer it up. It would (again) be Djinn's choice to ask that of him if she wants it.

I think Djinn decides first, and then discusses how to accomplish her goal with Aladdin and/or Mal (if needed).

 

[MightyMax]

I think a fundamental difference here is that people I tend to network with are open to discussion and changing their opinions based on new information. If Mal or Djinn were like this, a group discussion where each member supports their views with factual information nearly always leads to less rigidity on all sides. I might accept that the risk of herpes is higher than I believed it to be, and my partner might accept that the risk of my contracting HIV with barrier protection and then passing it to her is lower than she believed. Someone else in our group might acknowledge that they are genuinely the highest risk and not simply because they are bisexual or something like that.

So to answer your thoughts, I think that all members of this group have the potential to change their stance if they have a discussion based on each individual's perception of the facts. Even you could decide that even if Djinn, Mal and Aladdin continue fluid bonding, it isn't the level of risk you thought it was. Mal could decide that this level of "safe sex" is "safe" enough if he finds out his knowledge of stds is actually outdated. Djinn could decide that Mal (and you) are right and opt out of fluid bonding with Aladdin. This might prompt Aladdin to rethink how he wants to go about things. It doesn't really matter who is "first", it's just about having an adult discussion which either leads to people standing firm in their views or altering their opinions.

 

[A2Poly]

TI'm tired of talking at cross purposes with you.

You talk about risk as an absolute. As if your view on the risk is the only one that matters. I'm talking about risk tolerance. And each person has their own. We may all be fully up todate on all the science about STI transmission, and STILL have different views on what level of risk is acceptable to us. You might accept a risk that is a 1/10,000, where as perhaps the 1/100,000 is still to risky for me and maybe 1/500,000 is too risky for someone else. That is each person's right.

I assure you I am more than open to learning new facts about sex and STIs and relationships, and etc - and I have already learned a LOT from reading these forums and others. And I've shared a lot of it with my partner, and he has shared it with his partner. What she did with it I don't know, but I assume if she felt it was useful she shared it with her partner too. I certainly know that some of the discussions I've had with Mal are because something Djinn shared with him made him rethink something and he wanted to share that with me too.

In the end, for me it comes down to respect. I respect Djinn's right to have a different risk tolerance than Mal has. And for Mal to have a different tolerance than I have and Alladin to also have his own risk tolerance. But no one gets to tell me or him, or any of us what our tolerance is, or try to manipulate or coerce us into changing our individual tolerances. New information is always welcome, being told that your 'stance on the matter is unreasonable' and won't be 'pandered to' is not respectful, or particularly helpful.

Personally my hope is that they can have a calm discussion about this before it becomes a permanent rupture in their relationship, but besides encouraging Mal to talk to Djinn again, there is little I can do.

P.S. No one thinks Aladdin is a whore. You're projecting. And no one has left him out of any conversation that should include him, or kept any information from him that he needs to make informed decisions about his own health. You're projecting again. It's just that it is Djinn's job to have those conversations with him, not mine, and not Mal's. So I don't have first or even second hand knowledge of how those conversations went.

 

[MightyMax]

I feel like you're deliberately misinterpreting my posts because none of what I said equates to me talking about risks as absolutes. I have stated that they are facts, but I've also highlighted that individuals may interpret these facts differently. You say that you're all open to new information, but then you imply that Mal and Aladdin communicating directly about the issue, ie possibly introducing new information, is coercive.

I can only guess that your extreme reluctance to allow a conversation where all players are allowed to air and support their views to one another directly stems from a fear of things not going in your favour. Safer sex issues are one area of polyamory which simply cannot exist in a vacuum over a long period. At some point, all members have to collaborate if any one is to ever forego barriers. I'm more than aware that you know Mal would have the right to change his stance, but it would be understandable for you to fear that and want to avoid it happening. That's what I suspect is happening here.

 

[Norwegianpoly]

At one point, I felt extremely uncomfortable because I knew I had no real overview over the chain. Me, husband and boyfriend was fluent bonded. Also, I knew that boyfriend had had no barriers sex with his gf at the time. She may or may not have (barrier free) sex with her then live in boyfriend, who refused to meet/talk/communicate with any if us and who were too know who his sex partners were. I decided this was totally unexeptable - and that people had to deserve the honor and trust of being in my chain. There has to be direct communication between everyone who is fluent bonded to be sure everyone is on board with what is going on. That is not prying at other's sex life, that is relevant information. The easiest thing is of course to be fluent bonded with none or very few people. If people can't talk to each other, no way can they trust each other to not risk transmitting sexually transmitted stuff to the whole change.

 

[A2Poly]

I feel like you're deliberately misinterpreting my posts ...

I can only guess that your extreme reluctance to allow a conversation where all players are allowed to air and support their views to one another directly stems from a fear of things not going in your favour. ...

Really? Because that is exactly how I feel about you.

Our poly is NOT your poly. Not everyone has a group relationship. We don't. It's more like a string. Stop trying to force your idea of 'ideal poly' on other people. I'm sick of telling you that the way your relationship(s) work is not the way that our relationships work. Should Mal and Aladdin wish to talk to each other about this (or anything else) they have ample opportunity to do so. They live in the same house FFS! What I'm saying is that it is Djinn's RESPONSIBILITY to have that talk with Aladdin, not mine, and not Mal's. Not that Mal or I CAN'T talk to Aladdin, but that it isn't our job to do it. Neither of us are sleeping with him, she is.

And if you don't think being the only 23yo at a table with 3 people in their 40's doesn't hold any risk of being perceived by the 23yo as manipulative or coercive, you're kidding yourself. Aladdin has told me himself that he is intimidated by Mal (even though Mal is one of the least aggressive, most considerate men I know and would be shocked he intimidates anyone) , so I'm fairly confident that he would find a group meeting even more intimidating. I live with a 21yo. She is very mature for her age (as is Aladdin), so I have some understanding of the age, but even she would find that intimidating.

I have no fear of the decision "going against me". I'm not even sure what that means honestly. The only thing I want is for everyone to have their risk tollerances respected... not sure how it can "go against me" so long as that occurs. I've said again and again that I will make my own decision about my health when Djinn and Mal have sorted out what they want to do. They live together and I don't. They perforce have more sex (or more opportunities to have sex at least) than Mal and I do. I think it would actually be perfectly logical for Mal to decide that he wanted to continue having barrier free sex with her, even if that means I decide I'm not going to continue to have penatrative sex with him until I find protection I'm not allergic to. I have no fear of that outcome, and I've told Mal so. I know Mal and my relationship is not based only on sex, and I know there are many other things we can do even if I should decide not to have penatrative sex with him (which is not a foregone conclusion at all).

Anyway, since we continue to be talking at cross purposes, I'm done with this conversation. All the best to you and your poly network.