The Poly Adventure is Just Beginning

[YouAreHere]

Thanks Kevin. I don't think it's a gigantic thing because if I was mono, we'd be great. Likewise, if Mabel let me see Penny, I think that would work too. We'd still have great sex, get along great, there'd be peace, and we'd have a great life together.

I'm mono. Chops is Poly. I knew this getting into our relationship, and yes, it was, and still can be, a BIG THING.

Tron, people break up over this. Mono folks on the support mailing list ask constantly why they're expected to suffer while the poly partner gets "all the benefits". Well... really, they're not. This is why many of my mono friends thought I was letting myself get walked over, or being victimized in my relationship - because many (most?) mono relationships would not survive under those conditions.

This is on par with one person wanting kids while another doesn't. This is a big life decision that will then impact the other partner. It's not small, and if both people can't reach an agreement (other than, "I'm not talking about it anymore"), it's going to be very, very difficult to move on.

Focusing on the fact that she wanted to open the relationship is doing you no favors. Sometimes people try something on for size and realize that it doesn't fit. Regardless of how you feel about it, or how fair it seems, it looks like that's what happened here, and it's highlighted this very big difference between the two of you.

As for the refusal to talk, my ExH was a non-talker as well... to the point where, when we were nearing the end of our marriage, he got upset about all the talking and explicitly asked me, "Why do we have to talk NOW? We never had to talk BEFORE!"

Oy. Maybe that's part of the problem?

But he liked to ignore things until they went away, or until someone else dealt with them. You may want to determine if you're stuck in the same pattern. You can talk all you want, but if your partner isn't receptive, then it's just going to feel fruitless.

I'm not saying you should end your relationship with Mabel, but I am advising you to not minimize the potential impact here. If it's a big thing to ONE of you, then it's a big thing in your relationship with that person, and could very well be a deal-breaker over time.

And YES, go find a new therapist. Getting constantly shuffled around stinks.

 

[opalescent]

Thanks Kevin. I don't think it's a gigantic thing because if I was mono, we'd be great. Likewise, if Mabel let me see Penny, I think that would work too. We'd still have great sex, get along great, there'd be peace, and we'd have a great life together.

I just don't know what it could be other than that. It's just that Mabel seems to be wired for exclusive mono and I'm not. The fact that she's not really talking about this makes me a little suspicious, but I mean...she'd rather stay quiet than talk this out and help me get to a better spot.

tronprogram,

I bolded some parts of your post. Do you realize that the first sentences bolded are actually a fantasy? If a magic wand was waved and Mabel was all for your connection with Penny, it wouldn't solve the problems in your marriage. A lack of conflict before does not mean your marriage was in good shape. It wasn't. You two just didn't know the cracks were there. A lack of pain is not an automatic indication of health - sometimes it's denial, numbness, or apathy. And while it's understandable to not want to be in pain, that pain is telling you both that your marriage is in trouble. And it won't be solved by you becoming mono again or Mabel being fine with you having a poly relationship with Penny. I suspect both of you know this and the result is Mabel not talking and just wanting to get to 'no pain land' and you living in a fantasy world.

A relationship with Penny would have growing pains, and difficulties and just plain hard parts, even if Mabel was perfectly fine with it. There would be unique problems with that relationship as there are in any relationship.

I am NOT saying you shouldn't feel pain now, or that you shouldn't want to explore poly, that it doesn't hurt you are in no contact with Penny, or that Mabel should just continue to ignore your pleas to talk.

What I am saying is that you are using fantasy to build a world where everything will be alright if this 'just this one thing' happened - whether that is you staying mono or entering into a relationship with Penny with Mabel's blessing. If you continue to rebuild a relationship with Mabel from a fantasy viewpoint, you will fail. Fantasies aren't real, and while pleasant and sometimes even healthy, they are preventing you from seeing reality and dealing with the situation at hand. Fantasies are often a form of denial and a way to flee from pain. That's understandable. We all do it. But as you base your actions and thoughts on a fantasy - that if this one thing happened, all will be well! - you cannot truly find ways to handle pain and even resolve problems.

The second part I bolded - do you realize how very entitled this reads? Mabel is struggling, as are you. Mabel is not obligated to make you happy, meet your needs, or get you to a better spot. At their best, relationships allow people to offer this to others others willingly. But it's not an obligation. Happiness is an inside job. If she would just talk to me, and make me happy, all would be well. That's just another layer of the fantasy world you're in. It is also not real. While being unwilling to talk is not good, I wonder if it becomes more understandable if she perceives 'talking' as your means to badger her into giving you what you want, to focus on your needs at the expense of her own.

This reads rather harshly. I think you are trying the best you can with a hard situation. It is truly ok to want what you want, to explore poly, to want Mabel to be more open. You are not bad or wrong to want what you want. I've been in similar situations to yours and reacted in similar ways. I lived in a fantasy in my marriage for years. That helped kill the actual marriage I had. It wasn't the only problem we had but it prevented me from seeing what was happening and attempting to deal with it. It kept me in denial up to the point my ex dumped me - and for good reason. We were poly, and seeing other people. But poly did not cause our breakup - however it almost certainly accelerated the end. And that might have been a blessing because instead of staying in a fantasy world where I thought I was happy, I have a chance to actually be happy in reality. And my ex has the same opportunity.

I don't know if you can repair your marriage with Mabel. I don't know if a relationship with Penny would bring you happiness. I do know that living in a fantasy, and wanting a fantasy, will surely sabotage your efforts to do either of those things.

 

[YouAreHere]

Do you realize that the first sentences bolded are actually a fantasy? [...] I do know that living in a fantasy, and wanting a fantasy, will surely sabotage your efforts to do either of those things.

THIS.
Good point, Opal...

I held out some "what ifs" in the early part of my relationship with Chops. It led to pain and resentment. For me, I had to make my mantra, "What is, not what if," because I couldn't focus on figuring out my current scenario (and getting things to work more smoothly) when I was focused on all the alternate scenarios that "could have been".

Do you have a relationship with Penny? No. Are you Mono? No. End. Fin. Now where do you go from there?

Admitting the situation can be painful. I've been there. But you can't fix it when you're avoiding it in the land of "what-ifs".

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from tronprogram):

"I don't know that there is a workaround. "

I wish I knew of one.

 

[Dagferi]

I agree with the others and have expressed similar views on your other thread.

Stop living in a fantasy world and work on your reality.

 

[tronprogram]

Last night, I had another talk with Mabel about the state of things. While it seemed like they were going well and we were in good spirits when we fell asleep, I tried to do a recap this morning on our way to work and it didn't go as well.

The main takeaway from this morning was her saying: "I'll make concessions when you make concessions. I'll start reading articles [about polyamory] when you start going to church."

At one point, the takeaway from last night was when she said: "If you sleep with other women, I'm not going to sleep with you."

It feels so weird to visualize getting a divorce and working things out so much in the same conversation. It doesn't seem normal or healthy to be that wishy-washy. Either I want a divorce or I don't. Overall, I really don't, but whenever I feel like we're not able to move forward in resolving things, divorce is about the only option there is.

When she said I couldn't sleep with her if I slept with other women, I asked her if we would still be friends and she said maybe but that she'd be hurt.

I did get her to open up more about the actual risks of the open relationship. From her mono-centric view, she can't conceive how you can have two relationships and not have devotion/loyalty issues from 'serving two masters' essentially. I just did my best to explain to her that I'm just able to do that. Not only did talking to Penny not take away from the energy I could give her (Mabel), but it probably gave me more energy to give both of them. Whereas now, I don't feel like I'm living at my full potential and that upsets me, so that extra energy is being absorbed by sorrow, shame and despair(?).

Another thing she said was that she felt like she'd been losing me ever since we talked about the open relationship at the start of May. While there have been brief moments in that time where I felt that could be true, for the most part it doesn't line up at all with my perception of things.

From my perspective, I've been more involved and invested in the relationship than I have been in years just because that's what's been required for me to make this work. In order to keep the Penny distractions at bay, I've had to re-examine my relationship with Mabel and try to rediscover for myself all the reasons I love her and why I like being with her. I also know that when you do nice things for someone and show them love, you love them more. So I've been doing those types of things too. This was working really well on my end while I was talking to Penny, because it kept me from getting too carried away with Penny and I was able to enjoy Mabel that much more. But I think Mabel herself was too distracted by the idea that another woman was in the picture that she missed all this. And she's still missing it.

For the most part, Mabel just sees this as some obsession/fixation that I can't/won't move on from. She has no interest in entertaining the notion that we have problems in our relationship that will doom us if they're not fixed. She thinks these problems are all in my head and treats me like a hypochondriac. Not so. Even when we were in church before and I was trying to be a good Christian and keep an eye on the sin & temptation, I was still scared of cheating on Mabel and I still had thoughts about being with other girls. In fact, when we started going to our church, I constantly saw these young pretty single girls and frequently thought, "Man, I wish I could date these girls!" No wonder I felt ashamed and bad about myself for thinking those things in church.

One other swing-and-a-miss point I tried to stress, despite the flub-up with Penny a few weeks ago, was how I'm trying to be ethical about this and not just do what I want. I tried to show Mabel I could give up talking to Penny at a really tough time because I cared that much about our marriage and I cared that much about her (Mabel) and I wanted to make things right, despite my biology telling me otherwise. Her attitude has been, "Well of course you shouldn't be talking to her, because you're married to me."

I also added that a lot of couples have these issues and just don't bother to work through them or they don't do it like this. They just do what they want and what they need and to hell with their partner. Given my options to get a divorce, cheat on her, stifle it and be miserable (and make everyone else miserable), or get approval for a g/f, I felt like the g/f option was the best. I told her that I didn't want us to turn into her mom and dad, either. Her dad was a habitual cheater and her mom gave him the worst of crap about it (not sure if he started cheating first or if she gave him crap first and then he started cheating) and they stayed married and stuck in this cycle for many destructive years. They're the textbook example of why you should just go on and get a divorce. However, Mabel thinks we're already becoming like them. Giving me approval for a g/f is no different than having me cheat, in her eyes.

Probably the biggest thing that I haven't mentioned up until this point here on the forum is that Mabel is about 13 weeks pregnant right now. This is adding a whole lot of stress to the situation for us and it makes divorce an even uglier prospect since neither one of us want this child to grow up in single-parent homes or an unhappy double-parent home. I'm trying to do what I can to resolve this ASAP so I can worry about the baby itself, not its parents. Mabel's scared to death of not having me around in the delivery room, despite my frequent assurances that I want to be.

I'm probably really going to get reamed over this now. Oy.

 

[kdt26417]

Hmmm. If you're going to have a baby, you may not have time for poly at that point. Babies consume a shitton of time (and energy).

That aside, are you willing to go to church in exchange for Mabel reading articles on poly?

 

[Dagferi]

Trying to dive into polyamory while your wife is pregnant and you have small children at home is about one of the worst choices you can make. Great way to show her you love her and your family... On top of you bearing my child, devoting every waking hour to your family's care so much that you barely find time to pee. Now I want to spend time away from home chasing other partners because I want my cake and eat it too. Oh yeah you're a catch.

 

[tronprogram]

I'm mono. Chops is Poly. I knew this getting into our relationship, and yes, it was, and still can be, a BIG THING.

Tron, people break up over this. Mono folks on the support mailing list ask constantly why they're expected to suffer while the poly partner gets "all the benefits". Well... really, they're not. This is why many of my mono friends thought I was letting myself get walked over, or being victimized in my relationship - because many (most?) mono relationships would not survive under those conditions.

I'm a little confused by this. So you're saying that what I'm asking of Mabel is to put up with something that would end an average, everyday relationship and that's why it's not a small thing?

This is on par with one person wanting kids while another doesn't. This is a big life decision that will then impact the other partner. It's not small, and if both people can't reach an agreement (other than, "I'm not talking about it anymore"), it's going to be very, very difficult to move on.

That makes sense. I guess what makes this seem like such a small issue is that I'm looking at it from a compatibility angle. Mabel and I are still very compatible, I feel. Like 85%. It's just that 15% is such a small number that it doesn't seem like it should even compete with the other 85%. That's almost six times' the amount of compatibility we have otherwise.

Focusing on the fact that she wanted to open the relationship is doing you no favors. Sometimes people try something on for size and realize that it doesn't fit. Regardless of how you feel about it, or how fair it seems, it looks like that's what happened here, and it's highlighted this very big difference between the two of you.

I guess I'm struggling with the idea that I wouldn't have realized this big difference had it not been for her or at least not realized it was so big. Now it's all I can think about and I don't really know how to live with it.

As for the refusal to talk, my ExH was a non-talker as well... to the point where, when we were nearing the end of our marriage, he got upset about all the talking and explicitly asked me, "Why do we have to talk NOW? We never had to talk BEFORE!"

Oy. Maybe that's part of the problem?

But he liked to ignore things until they went away, or until someone else dealt with them. You may want to determine if you're stuck in the same pattern. You can talk all you want, but if your partner isn't receptive, then it's just going to feel fruitless.

Talking this little is actually strange for us because whenever we have disagreements, we're usually good about talking through them. But ditto to this feeling fruitless.

I'm not saying you should end your relationship with Mabel, but I am advising you to not minimize the potential impact here. If it's a big thing to ONE of you, then it's a big thing in your relationship with that person, and could very well be a deal-breaker over time.

This what I'm trying to tell her. I mean, while I've felt this problem is too small to terminate our marriage, it's too big to ignore. Especially for me, since this is such a long-lasting issue.

 

[kdt26417]

What will you do?

 

[YouAreHere]

I'm a little confused by this. So you're saying that what I'm asking of Mabel is to put up with something that would end an average, everyday relationship and that's why it's not a small thing?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that many people wouldn't even entertain the idea, so there's some precedent for this being a big thing to folks. The fact that it isn't a "big thing" to you (although I'd argue otherwise, given the fact that you "can't stop thinking about it") doesn't negate that it is a big thing to Mabel.

That makes sense. I guess what makes this seem like such a small issue is that I'm looking at it from a compatibility angle. Mabel and I are still very compatible, I feel. Like 85%. It's just that 15% is such a small number that it doesn't seem like it should even compete with the other 85%. That's almost six times' the amount of compatibility we have otherwise.

Sometimes, rolling the numbers just doesn't work.

If I met a GF who were into sci-fi, nerdy things, liked gaming, got along awesome with my kids, could talk about anything and everything until the sun comes up, make love like no other, etc., then hey - high compatibility, right?

Now, suppose I'm straight (oh ya, I'm female).

Does that equal an 85% or 95% (or some other percent) compatibility, or is it a ZERO percent since we have such a fundamental INcompatibility? Some folks may give it a shot, some wouldn't even consider it. Your 85% may be someone else's zero.

More to add on another post, but I may not have time until later...

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"Does that equal an 85% or 95% (or some other percent) compatibility, or is it a *zero* percent since we have such a fundamental INcompatibility?"

That was my feeling.

 

[tronprogram]

tronprogram,

I bolded some parts of your post. Do you realize that the first sentences bolded are actually a fantasy? If a magic wand was waved and Mabel was all for your connection with Penny, it wouldn't solve the problems in your marriage. A lack of conflict before does not mean your marriage was in good shape. It wasn't. You two just didn't know the cracks were there. A lack of pain is not an automatic indication of health - sometimes it's denial, numbness, or apathy. And while it's understandable to not want to be in pain, that pain is telling you both that your marriage is in trouble. And it won't be solved by you becoming mono again or Mabel being fine with you having a poly relationship with Penny. I suspect both of you know this and the result is Mabel not talking and just wanting to get to 'no pain land' and you living in a fantasy world.

We had some conflict before this started, mainly due to my wife perceiving that I wasn't interested in our marriage or her. That wasn't really due to any problems on my end other than just being occupied by other stuff going on like grad school and wanting to pursue screenwriting. However, the underlying problems I had were that we had differing sex drives. I only somewhat held this against her, but mostly felt ashamed of myself for never being satisfied with the sex we did have and being greedy for wanting more.

A relationship with Penny would have growing pains, and difficulties and just plain hard parts, even if Mabel was perfectly fine with it. There would be unique problems with that relationship as there are in any relationship.

At this point, I can't even fathom those other than the ones I'm going through. Penny is a LDR, so I'm sure those would be slow in coming. In the short time we talked, the LDR was both a blessing and a curse.

I am NOT saying you shouldn't feel pain now, or that you shouldn't want to explore poly, that it doesn't hurt you are in no contact with Penny, or that Mabel should just continue to ignore your pleas to talk.

What I am saying is that you are using fantasy to build a world where everything will be alright if this 'just this one thing' happened - whether that is you staying mono or entering into a relationship with Penny with Mabel's blessing. If you continue to rebuild a relationship with Mabel from a fantasy viewpoint, you will fail. Fantasies aren't real, and while pleasant and sometimes even healthy, they are preventing you from seeing reality and dealing with the situation at hand. Fantasies are often a form of denial and a way to flee from pain. That's understandable. We all do it. But as you base your actions and thoughts on a fantasy - that if this one thing happened, all will be well! - you cannot truly find ways to handle pain and even resolve problems.

I'm not sure that I think everything will be okay if the bolded parts happened. If I was wired for mono and could be mono, it would be fine (at least things would be better, maybe not fine). But I'm not wired for it, so that's a problem. I know there will be issues with Penny because, after all, she has a mind of her own and her own opinions and feelings. That's a guarantee for issues of some kind at some point.

The second part I bolded - do you realize how very entitled this reads? Mabel is struggling, as are you. Mabel is not obligated to make you happy, meet your needs, or get you to a better spot. At their best, relationships allow people to offer this to others others willingly. But it's not an obligation. Happiness is an inside job. If she would just talk to me, and make me happy, all would be well. That's just another layer of the fantasy world you're in. It is also not real. While being unwilling to talk is not good, I wonder if it becomes more understandable if she perceives 'talking' as your means to badger her into giving you what you want, to focus on your needs at the expense of her own.

That's how she sees it. If she considers or talks about this, it's her way of giving in, not a way for us to find a solution to this stuff.

I feel like it's tricky to say that I'm responsible for my own happiness in my marriage, because it seems like that would mean I would just do this and not worry about whether it hurt her or not. And by 'better spot', I meant just one that's not so stressful, whether it's a relationship with Penny or some other solution found inside our marriage.

This reads rather harshly. I think you are trying the best you can with a hard situation. It is truly ok to want what you want, to explore poly, to want Mabel to be more open. You are not bad or wrong to want what you want. I've been in similar situations to yours and reacted in similar ways. I lived in a fantasy in my marriage for years. That helped kill the actual marriage I had. It wasn't the only problem we had but it prevented me from seeing what was happening and attempting to deal with it. It kept me in denial up to the point my ex dumped me - and for good reason. We were poly, and seeing other people. But poly did not cause our breakup - however it almost certainly accelerated the end. And that might have been a blessing because instead of staying in a fantasy world where I thought I was happy, I have a chance to actually be happy in reality. And my ex has the same opportunity.

I feel like the fantasy has been that I'm not wired for monogamy and I've been trying to make that one-size-fits-all thing fit me and it doesn't (just like the actual one-size-fits-all items out there usually don't).

I don't know if you can repair your marriage with Mabel. I don't know if a relationship with Penny would bring you happiness. I do know that living in a fantasy, and wanting a fantasy, will surely sabotage your efforts to do either of those things.

Hmm. I will consider these things. Thank you for your insights!

 

[tronprogram]

Hmmm. If you're going to have a baby, you may not have time for poly at that point. Babies consume a shitton of time (and energy).

That aside, are you willing to go to church in exchange for Mabel reading articles on poly?

It seems that if I don't make at least a little bit of time for poly (Penny is a LDR, so it seems to lend itself more easily to this situation), then I'm just prolonging my troubles and letting them get mixed into my child's life. Again, is it better for them to grow up in an unhappy double-parent home or two single-parent homes?

 

[kdt26417]

I definitely don't think the unhappy double-parent home would be good for the kid.

 

[tronprogram]

I feel like that's where Mabel and I are heading, the unhappy double-parent home. This is the tough thing I'm having to decide. Can I be mono for this or should I be poly when I can? Should I stay married to do that for the sake of our kid or is our kid better off if we're divorced and not causing each other grief?

I know I've got a few years, but I've always wondered what I'd tell my kid about sex beyond how it works. Especially these days.

"Know yourself in every possible way before you marry someone and find that stuff out later. Even if that means having lots of safe sex before you're married."?

 

[tronprogram]

Why wouldn't it be a good idea for me to be mono again, after realizing that I probably should be non-mono if not poly? I mean, what kind of risk am I running to myself and my family?

Before, when I thought I was happily mono, it was still mildly uncomfortable, but it was bearable. Now that I've given a name and face to that discomfort, I anticipate it could be a bit worse to return to that. I know a lot of you can't answer this because you're not me and you don't know what I can tolerate, but I just wondered if there were general considerations that went along with it. I'm not just getting worked up over nothing, right?

 

[kdt26417]

If you can be happily monogamous, by all means do so. You could even be monogamous on a trial basis, several months or perhaps a year, and find out if that allows you to still be happy.

If being monogamous makes you feel awful all the time, then you shouldn't do it. And maybe there's some middle ground where monogamy makes you sort of happy, sort of unhappy. Would that be an acceptable compromise?

You can't know everything there is to know about yourself before you get married. Change is a lifelong process. So, that's something to consider when giving advice to your kid.

 

[tronprogram]

If you can be happily monogamous, by all means do so. You could even be monogamous on a trial basis, several months or perhaps a year, and find out if that allows you to still be happy.

From May 2008 to May 2015, this is what I did. While I survived it, I don't think I did it with flying colors and I certainly didn't feel comfortable the whole time. There was one instance in 2011 where I got carried away playing Second Life and wound up chatting with an older woman for a few days. Mabel was upset, but not like she was when I went out with Penny. If anything, she thought it was pathetic and weird that I was talking to an older woman (even though it's been my dream to spend some quality time with one).

If being monogamous makes you feel awful all the time, then you shouldn't do it. And maybe there's some middle ground where monogamy makes you sort of happy, sort of unhappy. Would that be an acceptable compromise?

I wouldn't say it makes me feel awful, but I definitely don't feel awesome. I wear a 2XL and it's like wearing a XL on a good day and a L on a bad day. Yes, I'm covered and I'm not exposed to the elements, but I'm not comfortable.

You can't know everything there is to know about yourself before you get married. Change is a lifelong process. So, that's something to consider when giving advice to your kid.

Hmm...

 

[tronprogram]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that many people wouldn't even entertain the idea, so there's some precedent for this being a big thing to folks. The fact that it isn't a "big thing" to you (although I'd argue otherwise, given the fact that you "can't stop thinking about it") doesn't negate that it is a big thing to Mabel.

Sorry I didn't reply to this yesterday. I read it, but I was just digesting it a little. I see what you're saying. Honestly, if an open relationship had never been brought up, I probably wouldn't have entertained it myself because it was just an alternative lifestyle than the one I thought I was happy to be living. However, since Mabel was my foray into it, I found it's actually a good fit for me--except for Mabel.

Sometimes, rolling the numbers just doesn't work.

If I met a GF who were into sci-fi, nerdy things, liked gaming, got along awesome with my kids, could talk about anything and everything until the sun comes up, make love like no other, etc., then hey - high compatibility, right?

Now, suppose I'm straight (oh ya, I'm female).

Does that equal an 85% or 95% (or some other percent) compatibility, or is it a ZERO percent since we have such a fundamental INcompatibility? Some folks may give it a shot, some wouldn't even consider it. Your 85% may be someone else's zero.

More to add on another post, but I may not have time until later...

I really digested this a lot last night and this morning on the way to work. That's pretty deep stuff. lol I could see how Mabel and I might have zero compatibility because of this. Or "phantom compatibility", maybe?

Another thing that's probably misled me has been that my vision for my relationship with Penny isn't that different from what Mabel and I have now. Before we stopped talking, Penny and I were really starting to identify and agree upon how our relationship would look and fit into our lives. Basically, seeing her would be no more of a time commitment than talking to my best friends from college, who live about the same distance away as she does. (In fact, two of three friends live in the same state, within an hour of her and about the same distance for me whether I see her or them.) My work schedule gives me Wednesdays off, when Mabel is working, so I could just run up there or Penny could come down on those days. Occasionally, I'd maybe want to run up there on a Friday or Saturday night if Mabel goes out with one of her friends just to have a night date with Penny. Other than that, it would mainly be texting since it's an LDR. Penny and I were both fine with that. If Mabel just thought I was going to see my friends, she'd be none the wiser about it if she didn't peak under the surface. If Mabel didn't check my phone to see where I was, then she'd never know I wasn't with the guys (or at least I wasn't with them the whole time I was gone). I'd still come back refreshed, ready to see her when I got back, and that's it.

But noooo...I'm ethical about this and waiting until I can go to Ohio for the purpose of seeing Penny when Mabel's okay with it. Plus, even though I feel like I could easily get away with this, I figure it's too good to be true. There's some minor detail there that I'd overlook that would give me away. Best not to trip that mine.

Even when the baby comes, I don't see my relationship with Penny taking me away too much. In fact, I already asked her if she'd mind me bringing it along some and she didn't have a problem with it. (Mabel would probably mind, though. lol Just got to work on that some.)

I'm aware of DADT and I even suggested it to Mabel the other night, but since it's a form of non-monogamy, she was automatically against it. As with the rest of this stuff, I'm not even sure she considered it on its merits.