Is polyamorism in men correlated with sex drive?

[AnnabelMore]

A slightly more accurate neologism for Portia, btw, rather than demisexual, might be gray-asexual. Sorta like being on the autism spectrum doesn't mean you're full-on autistic per se but does mean you're not what might be considered the neurological norm, gray-asexuality refers to the wide range of people who may not consider themselves completely asexual, but don't necessarily feel as sexually-motivated as may be considered typical.

Regarding the idea of massage and sensual touch not necessarily being interpreted as a sign that you're really after sex -- does she feel free to reject you without any emotional consequences (guilting, pressuring, etc.)? That was very important for me in a relationship in which my partner was more interested in sex with me than I was in sex with him (I won't say that our libidos were mismatched, as it turned out to be more about our specific connection than anything). Once I knew that I wouldn't be subjected to any form of even minor emotional blackmail, I was able to relax a lot.

 

[AnnabelMore]

One last thought for now. Having a low libido is one thing, but not being willing/able to talk about preferences during sex or really enjoy it sound like problems to me. Portia, have you considered seeing a sexual therapist? And/or, have the two of you considered couple's therapy?

 

[FallenAngelina]

I find the combination of young children, long hours at a mentally taxing job and the stress of carrying my family's financial burden to be a real libido killer.

Fair enough. But what your husband said was the other way around, that you were turned on by a breadwinner, which is very different than your having little energy to have sex because you've been working like a dog.
As for demi-sexual, it certainly shouldn't be considered a hindrance to sex in a marriage. If the partners aren't connecting emotionally, they've got bigger fish to fry than worrying about their sex life.

 

[FallenAngelina]

...having one or more young children does drastically take away from both the time and energy that you can put into your partnership. How could it be otherwise, when time and energy are limited quantities and kids take SO much of them? This is a very, very common problem.

As a side bar to the side bar I'll say that THIS is why I can't imagine how people even begin to imagine that they can add polyamory to their lives when their kids are small/babies. We see so many people posting here and thinking that "poly" is going to be a stress reliever when the baby arrives.

 

[Inyourendo]

As a side bar to the side bar I'll say that THIS is why I can't imagine how people even begin to imagine that they can add polyamory to their lives when their kids are small/babies. We see so many people posting here and thinking that "poly" is going to be a stress reliever when the baby arrives.

Just depends on the people.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Just depends on the people.

Not really. Show one example where introducing multiple partners makes life with a baby easier.

A long established poly family certainly can accomodate a baby quite nicely, but couples who start down the poly road when a baby is on the way generally will get a very rude awakening to reality pretty quickly. I've not ever heard of it done successfully.

 

[Inyourendo]

Im sorry I wasn't reading that these were monogamous people opening up a closed relationship while pregnant. I can definitely aee it working out if it was a situation where the added partner was previously a friend.

Nate met and started dating jane when I was pregnant and she was an amazing source of support to me.

 

[Lysander]

Regarding the idea of massage and sensual touch not necessarily being interpreted as a sign that you're really after sex -- does she feel free to reject you without any emotional consequences (guilting, pressuring, etc.)? That was very important for me in a relationship in which my partner was more interested in sex with me than I was in sex with him (I won't say that our libidos were mismatched, as it turned out to be more about our specific connection than anything). Once I knew that I wouldn't be subjected to any form of even minor emotional blackmail, I was able to relax a lot.

If not after the first year or so, by now it's eminently clear that if it has been more than a day I'm feeling deprived. I try not to articulate that (if for no reason other than the fact that it only elicits negative feedback). But I'm not a good liar (or, I have no "poker face"). Even if I could convincingly pretend I wasn't thinking about sex anytime I'm near her ... well, maybe pretending is good enough for women?

One last thought for now. Having a low libido is one thing, but not being willing/able to talk about preferences during sex or really enjoy it sound like problems to me. Portia, have you considered seeing a sexual therapist? And/or, have the two of you considered couple's therapy?

A sexual therapist? Portia is a conservative woman with a rigid Catholic upbringing. (Thanks Catholicism ) In fact, I wish I could tell if her revulsion to polyamory is entirely due to "nurture," or if there are people with an innate aversion to it.

Couples therapy yes, until we realized that we don't have to pay someone so we can sit together while my wife expounds upon all the ways I'm a nonconformist and she's a conformist. We've cut out the middle man and have regular constructive discussions in which she enumerates my shortcomings and we try to figure out which I can work on changing and which she'll try to accept.

 

[Evie]

Anyone else wanna scream about now?



Lysander, is your interest in poly primarily about finding another woman to satisfy your sex drive while Portia is just a little too busy/tired/stressed to want intercourse every day? Are you prepared to put a lid on it for a few months and reconnect with Portia without sex? Because that's what it sounds like would be more beneficial to the both of you right now rather than trying to solve the issue by attempting to seek other sex partners under the guise of polyamory. Do you see poly as cheaper than engaging professional services? Or do you balk at the idea of engaging a prostitute? If so, ask yourself why, because it seems that that is how you would really be treating any other sex partners you had. Hell, it seems as if that's how you're treating Portia in the bedroom.


Portia, do you believe that you could find pleasure in sex with Lysander again if you didn't feel like you simply fulfilling your marital duty? And being the main breadwinner? And all the other things that come with being a wife and mother? If so, how about start telling him more about how you would like sex to be. Tell him what your ideal sexy date with him would be if it were to happen today. Not with the idea that he has to make it happen, but with the notion that at least you are now talking about the pleasure of sex, not the duty of it.

 

[Lysander]

Heh, see, this is part of why I assume that any woman involved with me would want female allies

Evie: Short answer to your question: I have assumed that sex with my wife is off the table, indefinitely, for years. When, on occasion, she volunteers, I count myself lucky; otherwise I'm out of luck. I am definitely not looking for partners for casual sex (though in a dream world where sex had no potential consequences or risks that sounds like a lot of fun). I find the idea of engaging a prostitute repulsive.

Long answer: I am intrinsically polyamorous. Yes, my wife and I suffer from a libido mismatch, but as I mentioned either earlier in this thread or in the other I honestly can't understand why someone wouldn't naturally be interested in multiple strong, romantic, and even sexual adult friendships. Limited though I am, I have appreciated close female friendships in the past. Yes, my sex deficit weighs on me heavily, but even absent that I have always had an instinct to seek close relationships with women. I have no instinctive limitation on the number of such simultaneous relationships.

The monogamy paradigm, especially as practiced in modern nuclear families, seems dystopian to me: The idea that one man and one woman are going to form a perfectly complementary and self-contained unit to weather every stage of life's difficulties is hopelessly idealistic. For example, in our marriage: I'm a sort of lopsided package (extraordinarily strong in some areas; extraordinarily deficient in others) and my wife has an unusual need to pursue a successful career of her own at almost any cost. We moved near her parents, who offer a bit of support, but otherwise we depend on nannies to make the family with kids even semi-functional. My ideal (and of course I get to hold forth on this with the benefit of absolutely no real-world experience ) is more communal. Why not open our lives to people on a non-pecuniary, relational basis to enhance our support network and complement our shortcomings? Maybe there's a woman with whom my wife could form a close friendship and who is utterly fulfilled spending 10 hours a day with children. Why not bring her into the commune instead of maintaining this arms-length financial relationship? Why would my wife not be open to relationships with other men that complement my deficits? The concept is natural to me, even if these relationships develop romantic and sexual aspects. I'm not under the illusion that these more primal social structures are a panacea, or free of problems. I just see a much greater potential for net happiness and fulfillment than in our increasingly isolated nuclear/monogamous straightjacket.

 

[Inyourendo]

Between you working, your wife working, and kids when would you even have time to dromance women and have other relationships? it sounds like you and your wife have very limited time with each other as it is. I think it's pretty unrealistic to try to have additional relationships when your existing one is in a rough place. But it sounds pretty moot from the other thread because polyamory isn't on the table

 

[Evie]

I wish I could tell if your revulsion to the idea of engaging a prostitute is entirely due to "nurture," or if there are people with an innate aversion to it.

but moving along...

That wider picture, albeit as you recognise without practical experience, makes it a lot easier for me to see your motivation now. And yeah, I don't disagree with you. I'd be open to being in a communal relationship with sexual, emotional, practical, recreational and financial inter-dependencies too.

I was actually doing a thought experiment earlier today (motivated by Portia's primary bread-winning position) about where challenges would pop up for me if my and Hubby's relationship evolved in this direction. I think one of my challenges would be the financial in the pre-interdependent stage. Now there's not a lot of money in our household. That lack is more painful to me than to him at this time of life. We are currently working towards less lack (he's post grad, I'm job hunting after choosing not to pursue higher study). If he started dating, I'd be concerned that that time would be delayed as he'd put time into dating that literally needs to be spent on study. That's where I'd run into problems. It would be nice to be more communal and have 3 incomes into the household, but there would most likely be a lot of time of dating before that were to happen, and it may never happen, in the meantime there is the risk of greater, not less, lack.

So although it seems like a lot of discussion in this thread has been centered around the sexual element of extramarital relationships, you've now indicated that you are quite aware of the other factors and that you're currently wearing rose tinted glasses with regards to possiblities. Kudos for both.

I have always had an instinct to seek close relationships with women. I have no instinctive limitation on the number of such simultaneous relationships.

And this wasn't part of discussions before you married someone whose primary religious experience is Catholicism?

Oops.

(not oops on getting married, but oops on not talking enough about this "intrinsically polyamorous" position beforehand.)

Maybe the mismatch really is too much.

 

[Lysander]

And this wasn't part of discussions before you married someone whose primary religious experience is Catholicism?

Oops.

I was going to expand a little on that. If this were one generation in the future, when (I expect) more diverse relationship paradigms will be part of the cultural lexicon, I could have easily self-identified as "polyamorous." But 15 years ago I thought I was just like every other man: acquiescing to monogamy in order to guarantee access to an attractive woman and the children I would eventually want. It never occurred to me that there was such a thing as an intrinsically monogamous man. I don't think even my wife believed that.

We assumed most of the premises I articulated in the other thread, which meant that any other relationships really would be a threat to my wife and kids. I now know that those premises are not quite as solid as originally believed: there are a non-trivial number of women out there who would not constitute a mortal threat to my family. And there are couples who successfully integrate more adults into their closest circles.

If we had the vocabulary then that we have now I probably would have told my now-wife early on, "I'm polyamorous." She probably would have said, "Well, I'm monogamous." And we would have never become more than loose platonic friends.

 

[Lysander]

Between you working, your wife working, and kids when would you even have time to romance women and have other relationships? it sounds like you and your wife have very limited time with each other as it is. I think it's pretty unrealistic to try to have additional relationships when your existing one is in a rough place. But it sounds pretty moot from the other thread because polyamory isn't on the table.

People make time (though obviously the types of relationships possible at this stage of life are somewhat more limited). For example, she maintains a plethora of female friends. I make time for various activities. Granted, as she has suggested, the pool of prospects interested in such relationships, in our vicinity, who would also be interested in me personally could quite possibly be zero. Again, my vast experience in this area led me to imagine that successful deep relationships could be a net boost to our lives, rather than a drain. But given the likely reality I guess I'll be better off focusing on cultivating my cynicism.

 

[Inyourendo]

People make time (though obviously the types ofextremely casual oips possible at this stage of life are somewhat more limited). For example, she maintains a plethora of female friends. I make time for various ahe's not poly andities. Granted, as she has suggested, the pool of prospects interested in such relationships, in our vicinity, who would also be interested in me personally could quite possibly be zero. Again, my vast experience in this area led me to imagine that successful deep relationships could be a net boost to our lives, rather than a drain. But given the likely reality I guess I'll be better off focusing on cultivating my cynicism.

A romantic partner takes way more time than a friend unless it was an extremely casual type of relationship the way my husband does It (he only sees people when im not home and doesnt spend money on people or talk on the phone) but his involvement is almost purely sexual.

 

[Portia]

Fair enough. But what your husband said was the other way around, that you were turned on by a breadwinner, which is very different than your having little energy to have sex because you've been working like a dog.
As for demi-sexual, it certainly shouldn't be considered a hindrance to sex in a marriage. If the partners aren't connecting emotionally, they've got bigger fish to fry than worrying about their sex life.

My husband works, but he has substantially more free time than I do. I have been the primary earner for years while he has had the freedom to pursue his entrepreneurial dreams. I also have the primary emotional responsibility for our two small children, and I spend most of my time outside of work caring for them.

Is it so horrible to say that I find the idea of my husband working/earning money sexy? I am tired and stressed, and a big part of that stress is my desire to provide financially for my family and to guarantee a secure future. So my stress would lessen if I felt that he was equally sharing the financial burden. But, to be honest, I also would find it attractive because I would feel "cared for." I'm the primary emotional caregiver for my kids and family. I'm the primary financial provider too. I am just drained.

I also am tired of hearing how supposedly low my libido is as it is fairly typical. I pulled my friends too because they are other moms of young children. 1-2x a week seems to be the norm with the moms feeling more relaxed or in-the-mood on weekends or after a date night. My husband would want sex daily (or even more). That seems much higher than what their husbands report wanting. So I don't think I'm so unusual.

Quite frankly, I doubt my husband would have time for poly dating-- even if I were ok with it. We rarely have date nights. Yet I'm supposed to think it would be ok for him to take time to date someone else? if he has time for a date, he should date me-- which would boost MY libido.

 

[Evie]

Loving more than one woman might not actually constitute a mortal threat to your family, but a drained wife and mother could be.

I'm glad Portia has joined in this conversation. We get to see two articulate people stating their personal positions.

And I'm seeing a wife who really wants to feel cared for, prioritised and needs a break from shouldering the perceived (we can't judge reality in this type of forum) majority weight of the household. She believes that these fall to the husband. This is reasonable in a two person household. It's reasonable in hierarchical dynamic poly too.

And I see a husband who is less concerned about financial security, sees his wife's work as career driven rather than trying to have enough money for now and savings/investments, wants more sex, and multiple romantic connections.

Either way, we see time and time here the advice that adding people to a relationship is not the way to solve existing problems within the relationship.

So rather than focusing on character issues a la "hav[ing] regular constructive discussions in which she enumerates my shortcomings and we try to figure out which I can work on changing and which she'll try to accept" how about looking for some practical things to DO that will help the marriage, if you actually want to.

First, go have dates with each other. Have some fun.

Second, 5 years is also a long time to work on a start up/entrepreneurial endeavour without a profitable return. Maybe it's time to look for full time employment or additional part time work for a time and approach the entrepreneurial endeavour again in the future. I know this is easier said than done in this job market, but a couple of job applications a month wouldn't be too hard to produce.

Third, do a practical activity about your (particularly financial) priorities and real costs within the marriage. School, college, savings, investments, entertainment, the start up. Think about the future together, think about it separately, make a real plan for each, find out what parts of each excite you. Put it down on post its/onenote/somehow that you can arrange and rearrange.

Fourth, figure out what type of connections Portia is comfortable with Lysander having with other women. It would be naive at best to think Lysander's never going to have women friends. Some people just connect better with the other sex. Where are your boundaries, Portia? Where are your's Lysander (assuming you wish to stay maritally committed to Portia)?

But go do something fun first. You both deserve it. You are married, you wanted to be married 15 years ago, take the time to remember why.

 

[Norwegianpoly]

I also am tired of hearing how supposedly low my libido is as it is fairly typical. I pulled my friends too because they are other moms of young children. 1-2x a week seems to be the norm with the moms feeling more relaxed or in-the-mood on weekends or after a date night. My husband would want sex daily (or even more). That seems much higher than what their husbands report wanting. So I don't think I'm so unusual.

Men also typically report having a lower libido or/and a reduced capasity for sex when they are working full time (in a job that demands results) and possably also caring for kids. It doesn't matter how high your libido was to begin with if you have a lack of sleep/restoring energy. You seem on the verge of exhaustion and in survival mode, it is actually a chemical reaction that slows down the sex drive if you feel too stressed out. I experienced it myself when I started in a new job at the same time as I was preparing to move houses.

You mentioned that he has a hobby? I see it time and again that men arrange it so that they are able to pursue hobbies on a regular basis - without the kids - while women typically bring their kids over on weekends, not having alone time or adult time without the kids. Perhaps men are more healthy in this manner in that they take for granted that they too should have time set aside to enjoy themselves. The young mums that I know that thrive the most, are usually married to men who encourages them to have their own time (taking care of the kids to fascilitate that) or they have regular friendship clubs where of course the kids are not there, sceduled long time in advance so that the dads know when to take the kids swimming, put kids to bed by themselves or whatever they choose to do. This of course means that the mums have to let go of perfectionism and actually let the dads daddy the kids, without worrying too much what they eat or do. And of course, hire a baby sitter. If you have friends with kids, perhaps you could babysit each other's kids and each couple give the other date nights. Or ask us babycraving folks, we would love to help out!

 

[Inyourendo]

My husband works, but he has substantially more free time than I do. I have been the primary earner for years while he has had the freedom to pursue his entrepreneurial dreams. I also have the primary emotional responsibility for our two small children, and I spend most of my time outside of work caring for them.

Is it so horrible to say that I find the idea of my husband working/earning money sexy? I am tired and stressed, and a big part of that stress is my desire to provide financially for my family and to guarantee a secure future. So my stress would lessen if I felt that he was equally sharing the financial burden. But, to be honest, I also would find it attractive because I would feel "cared for." I'm the primary emotional caregiver for my kids and family. I'm the primary financial provider too. I am just drained.

I also am tired of hearing how supposedly low my libido is as it is fairly typical. I pulled my friends too because they are other moms of young children. 1-2x a week seems to be the norm with the moms feeling more relaxed or in-the-mood on weekends or after a date night. My husband would want sex daily (or even more). That seems much higher than what their husbands report wanting. So I don't think I'm so unusual.

Quite frankly, I doubt my husband would have time for poly dating-- even if I were ok with it. We rarely have date nights. Yet I'm supposed to think it would be ok for him to take time to date someone else? if he has time for a date, he should date me-- which would boost MY libido.

1-2times a week is definitely normal and reasonable. He's acting like its weeks or months between sex. And i agree, he should be dating you amd working on getting your marriage better or giving you time to go out and have a. Break

 

[PinkPig]

5 years is also a long time to work on a start up/entrepreneurial endeavour without a profitable return. Maybe it's time to look for full time employment or additional part time work for a time and approach the entrepreneurial endeavour again in the future. I know this is easier said than done in this job market, but a couple of job applications a month wouldn't be too hard to produce.

5 years is actually fairly typical for turning a decent profit in a start-up. It happens quicker in some industries than others, but 5 years is typical. Also, to be fair, neither Portia or Lysander have actually stated that he isn't bringing in income. Playing devil's advocate, assuming that he is bringing income in, it may be a matter of mismatched desires financially. Portia may prefer more income for more creature comforts and greater wealth accumulation for the future than Lysander. Otherwise, I agree with everything Evie says...more time focused on having fun together, and more downtime for Portia can only help.

Maybe it would help if Portia thinks about self-care as her oxygen mask? Put yours on first (take care of yourself, do things that fill you back up) to ensure that you're capable of correctly putting your kids' on... In this case, it's up to Portia to take time out for self care. As Mom's, I think it's easy and natural to fall into the trap of taking care of everyone else and ignoring our own needs. And, yes, Lysander should be supportive of Portia's needs for self-care (by taking care of the kids, helping out at home, etc), but in the end, it falls on Portia to make sure that she makes herself a priority.

1-2times a week is definitely normal and reasonable. He's acting like its weeks or months between sex. And i agree, he should be dating you amd working on getting your marriage better or giving you time to go out and have a. Break

Yes...but I also think part of the problem may be that Lysander feels like Portia considers sex just another bullet point on her to do list.