Greetings and Other Problems (speaking up)

[LizziE]

This is something that happened a long time ago with Lora, Jon, and me. I debate how I handled it then, and wanted to ask how other poly people would have handled it.

Jon, Lora and I were invited to a wedding. It was Jon's friend's wedding, and he was in the wedding party. Because of that, he had to get there much earlier than Lora and me. Since the wedding involved taking some buses that we'd never taken before, and then a bit of a walk, Lora wanted to travel to the wedding with me, which we did. The travel part was fine.

But when we arrived, and Jon found us and greeted us, he happened to greet me first. As far as I remember, he said 'hi' to me and then turned to Lora, and said 'hi' to her, and then turned back to include me in his vision and asked how our travel went.

Well, Lora flipped out (not exaggerating). She was upset because he ONLY greeted me, and "totally ignored her". He "obviously" didn't care about her at all, and was showing it by completely refusing to acknowledge her presence. Because she wouldn't drop it and it was turning into A Thing, they walked away from me and into a corner of the room to have a 20 minute argument about it. When they got back, she pretty much sulked until the pre-wedding cocktails came out.

(bad enough that this kind of argument happened at all, but happening in an open area in front of other people, where she is clearly upset and they are fighting before the wedding that he is in...everything in the frigging world revolved around her and her insecurities. But I digress...)

I didn't say anything out loud. But internally, I said "Well, that's the last time I travel anywhere with Lora where Jon is at the destination to greet us". Which I held to. The one or two times when it would have been easier for Lora and I to travel somewhere together to meet Jon, I said I was busy/unavailable/coming from the wrong direction because of errands.

What I'm wondering is if I should have said anything out loud myself. If I could do it again, I wonder if I should have said to her "Lora, Jon did greet me first. But I watched him turn and greet you too and then ask BOTH of us how our trip was. If traveling with you is going to bring about the possibility of our arrival starting with a fight over you not feeling properly greeted, then next time, you're going to need to make your own travel arrangements."

A part of me worries that that is either butting in or fanning the fire. But OTOH, unless I address it and mention MY feelings and bring up that it is not OK, then there is no way it would ever have a chance of getting better. I also wonder, in what I said, if there's a better way to say it and/or a way that addresses her insecurities without jumping all over her. Thoughts?

 

[MightyMax]

I think this question is based on the assumption that you will have another metamour with whom you experience a unhealthy, competitive relationship. If you think about healthy relationships and healthy people, they would not react the way Lora did so the question is sort of moot.

My focus if I were you, would be on ensuring that I do not get into the same sort of rut that I was in with Lora, and that includes having a partner who is similarly avoiding such relationships.

Generally speaking, in my healthiest relationships, I haven't really had to approach a metamour about a problem that I have with their relationship or interaction with my partner. My partner has managed their end of the deal or been suitably apologetic when things have "leaked" into our relationship.

 

[LizziE]

I'm not assuming that all my metamour relationships will be like Lora. But there is a possibility that it could happen, and I like being prepared for things.

Jon was apologetic about what happened. He also mentioned to me recently that it was interactions like that the slowly pounded the nails into the coffin that their relationship resides in now.

But, those things being what they are, I still find it worthwhile to make sure I handle situations like that in the best way possible, and speak up when I should. And in regards to the rut that I got into with Lora, part of this question stems from the idea that - had I been more proactive and addressed things like this interaction differently - we wouldn't have gotten into the rut that we did. The wedding thing happened about...three months into living together. I wonder if staying quiet, and not making it clear from the get-go, was part of what slowly made it more and more acceptable to her to act out in such ways. If I'd have a 0% tolerance from it from the beginning, perhaps we wouldn't have gotten to the place we did.

 

[MightyMax]

I'm not assuming that all my metamour relationships will be like Lora. But there is a possibility that it could happen, and I like being prepared for things.

Jon was apologetic about what happened. He also mentioned to me recently that it was interactions like that the slowly pounded the nails into the coffin that their relationship resides in now.

But, those things being what they are, I still find it worthwhile to make sure I handle situations like that in the best way possible, and speak up when I should.

So you believe that John could find another Lora and you'd be in the same awful situation again? See, I agree that John could find another Lora, but if I were you, that would not mean that I go through the same thing again because I would not be sticking around. This is why I think it's counterproductive to make any sort of plans for what happens if he meets Lora 2.0.

 

[PinkPig]

So you believe that John could find another Lora and you'd be in the same awful situation again? See, I agree that John could find another Lora, but if I were you, that would not mean that I go through the same thing again because I would not be sticking around. This is why I think it's counterproductive to make any sort of plans for what happens if he meets Lora 2.0.

+1. I'd also add that spinning your mental wheels by rehashing what happened in your relationship with Lora is counterproductive. Instead of focusing on the negatives from that relationship, I'd focus on thinking about what you want in a relationship and work on attracting those things (through your self care and self worth.) That which we focus on, the universe is more likely to give us. Laws of attraction and all that.

 

[LizziE]

You're making the assumption that I'm speaking only of Jon and his future relationships.

Based on the experiences I've seen my poly friends have, dealing with metamours who have insecurity issues is not a rare or unusual thing. I'm actually assuming more that my next insecure metamour would be from dating someone who ISN'T Jon, for two reasons - reason one is of the three exes of Jon's that I've met thus far, they're all awesome, self-confident people, who don't pull this bullshit. During Jon's relationship with Lora, several people (one of his siblings, and a few friends) who really didn't like Lora confided in me that they don't understand what he saw in her - she was so different, so unpleasant, compared to the people who he normally dates.

Reason two is that Jon has talked about the things he's working through, in terms of Lora's behavior, that really were unacceptable, but he made excuses for (at the time) because of her mental problems. Also, in his post-break-up relationship with her, he's discovered that taking a harder line with her, and refusing to cater to her bad behavior has caused her to behave better. It's...interesting; he gets a bit angry when he realizes that she really could have behaved better, if he'd really pushed her about it when they were in a relationship. But then he thinks about how he doesn't want to have another relationship where he has to "push" to get basic, good, human behavior. He doesn't want to deal with that bullshit again.

So I'm really not worried about a Lora 2.0.

In fact, I'm really not "worried" at all. I'm curious, and want to get feedback on how other people would handle a similar situation.

 

[LizziE]

+1. I'd also add that spinning your mental wheels by rehashing what happened in your relationship with Lora is counterproductive. Instead of focusing on the negatives from that relationship, I'd focus on thinking about what you want in a relationship and work on attracting those things (through your self care and self worth.) That which we focus on, the universe is more likely to give us. Laws of attraction and all that.

I appreciate what you are saying and believe me, most of what I'm doing is exactly that.

But, I worry (not just in this relationship, but in other ones too) that I don't speak up when I should, and if I DID speak up more, it would be more helpful, both in the short-term and in the long term.

So while I'm already doing what you're mentioning, I also have really strong feelings about introspection of this type, and examining if I need to be more proactive about calling out that things like this are not OK to me when they happen. But, then I also worry - is it really my problem? Is it really just their problem? When does a problem between a partner and their other partner become MY problem?

In this case, when it caused a small scene and also derailed twenty minutes of time because of an argument based on something that involved me, then it IS my problem somewhat, and the kind of thing that (in retrospect) I SHOULD speak up on, and say "If this is a thing you're going to do, in these kinds of situations, then I am no longer going to allow myself to have these kinds of situations with you, because I have no interest in being around this kind of behavior"

Does that make sense?

 

[MightyMax]

I know it's frustrating but I really keep coming back to "I wouldn't be with/stay with someone who chose partners like that". So

a) if a partner and a metamour had some sort of issue, they would not choose to hash it out on a night out with me
b) if it did occur, it would be a one off where both parties were extremely embarrassed and apologetic to me
c) my partner would ensure they weren't being the "leaky hinge", partially by ensuring they did not have stressful relationships which they could not handle

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the dilemma you are presenting has never happened to me, but when it has happened, especially habitually, it has been a sign that I am not in the healthiest relationship that I could be in. It has been the proverbial red flag. I handle it these days by hightailing it out of there, pronto.

In this case, when it caused a small scene and also derailed twenty minutes of time because of an argument based on something that involved me, then it IS my problem somewhat, and the kind of thing that (in retrospect) I SHOULD speak up on, and say "If this is a thing you're going to do, in these kinds of situations, then I am no longer going to allow myself to have these kinds of situations with you, because I have no interest in being around this kind of behavior"

Are you saying this to your partner or metamour? I would be saying it to my partner.

 

[PinkPig]

I appreciate what you are saying and believe me, most of what I'm doing is exactly that.

But, I worry (not just in this relationship, but in other ones too) that I don't speak up when I should, and if I DID speak up more, it would be more helpful, both in the short-term and in the long term.

Then, I'd focus on THIS ^^. Not on past experiences with Lora, which are counterproductive imo. If you believe that you should speak up more, change your thought pattern and your actions: "When people are treating me like a doormat, I will speak up for myself. I will say what I mean, mean what I say, but not say it mean." That is focusing on a positive aspect (changing my actions) vs focusing on a negative aspect (something that happened in the past which I cannot change and is highly unlikely to occur again in the same fashion.)

Honestly, Lizzie, I do get what you're saying/driving it. I understand it...painfully so because I've been in very similar circumstances and behaved similarly. But, I have a choice this day which I choose: to ruminate on the past, catastrophize over the future, or be the best me that I can be in the present which means leaving the past in the past and the future to the future. I choose the latter

 

[LizziE]

I totally agree it was a red flag. One of many. That's not in dispute.

My thoughts are entirely on what (if anything) I should have said about it.

To answer your question, it's something that I would want to say to my metamour, because my metamour both created the scene AND is the person who would "suffer" as a result (by my refusing to travel with this person again if we were meeting our shared partner). The hinge should also be taking care of it (and in a way, Jon did, by pulling her aside for them to argue it out, away from me). And HE was embarrassed and bothered by the whole thing. Lora was completely unembarrassed and (as far as I could tell) felt her behavior was normal and acceptable. I'm wondering if making it clear to her directly that it was NOT normal or acceptable to me would have been worthwhile.

 

[LizziE]

But, I have a choice this day which I choose: to ruminate on the past, catastrophize over the future, or be the best me that I can be in the present which means leaving the past in the past and the future to the future. I choose the latter

I hope we're both clear that I'm not catastrophic and although I am ruminating, I ruminate on a lot of things, and I don't think I'm ruminating unhealthily. To me, if I were ruminating unhealthily, I've had a whole laundry lists of posts of this type that I'm making, and it would seem...rather obsessive.

I respect that what you wrote works for you, but I can tell you from years of experience, that that doesn't work for me, in the way you describe. I do a lot better when I take a past situation and categorize it, figure out what I'd do differently, and then, when a situation in a similar category comes up, I can use the newly thought-through paths to follow a different behavior. In dealing with depression with psychotic affects (paranoia, delusions, extreme fears), as well as dealing with my mom's hoarding, I did a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy, which (as I was taught it) basically follows the pattern of what I'm asking about. It's like this:

1) I identify a situation or behavior or thought from the past that did not seem to serve me well.

2) I think about why it didn't serve me well, as well as think about how I would categorize that kind of behavior/what behaviors would be similar to it.

3) I think about what other ways I could react or handle the same situation, and why they would be better, as well as identify the potential pitfalls of this new behavior.

4) Try out the new behavior the next time a similar situation occurs. See how it goes. Decide if the new approach is healthier for me. If not, try another one.

Rinse, repeat, as needed.

If I think about it as you suggested, like I'm being a doormat...Was I being a doormat? Was I giving Jon and Lora space to figure out their own shit on their own? Where is the line between when their shit becomes my shit (this is the hardest question to me)?

I don't feel like I was a doormat at the time. But I do think that, at the time, I wasn't willing/open to giving myself the "right" to speak up about my feelings on the subject. And part of that was that it took awhile for me to realize how much it bothered me. I can say that about a LOT of her behaviors - "If X behavior was a one-of, or happened every great once a while, it wouldn't be a huge problem". But this - part of why I'm bringing this up now is because this particular thing has continued to stick out to me as something that was a bigger problem that I should have addressed. The reason being that (unlike a lot of other things) this happening ONE time was enough to make me no longer travel with her. And this happened early on in us living together, so the other things hadn't had a chance to pile up and make this worse than it really is, if that makes sense.

All that said, even as I say to myself "In the future, this is something that I would speak directly to my metamour about", I wonder if other people would feel the same way and/or have feedback on how to approach a similar thing.

 

[KC43]

Given what you've said about Lora in other posts, I would say in *that* situation, you did the right thing by not speaking up and letting Jon handle it. If you'd told her "Even though he greeted me first, he also paid attention to you," she probably would have seen it as argumentative, maybe even as you trying to gaslight her (in your other posts, she sounds like the type to accuse people of doing that while she's actually doing it to them...).

The only thing I can see that you might have done is tell her *later*, well after the fact when she was hopefully calm, that it was unpleasant for you to see her and Jon arguing, and that if she has a problem with the order in which you're greeted, it's best that you don't travel together.

Which is how I would probably say you could handle it if a situation like that came up in the future. Let the hinge handle it in the moment, but if it's a problem for you, and you and your metamour have a connection where you can talk to each other, sit down with them later on when you're both calm and say "I feel very uncomfortable when you and Jon argue in front of me like you did at (that event). Since the argument seemed to be about the order in which he greeted us when we arrived together, I think the best thing to do to avoid the problem in the future is for us to go separately."

 

[MightyMax]

I totally agree it was a red flag. One of many. That's not in dispute.

My thoughts are entirely on what (if anything) I should have said about it.

To answer your question, it's something that I would want to say to my metamour, because my metamour both created the scene AND is the person who would "suffer" as a result (by my refusing to travel with this person again if we were meeting our shared partner). The hinge should also be taking care of it (and in a way, Jon did, by pulling her aside for them to argue it out, away from me). And HE was embarrassed and bothered by the whole thing. Lora was completely unembarrassed and (as far as I could tell) felt her behavior was normal and acceptable. I'm wondering if making it clear to her directly that it was NOT normal or acceptable to me would have been worthwhile.

Our opinions differ because I feel that scene was entirely of John's creation. He chose to remain in the situation the three of you were in for so long. I don't see how your metamour would "suffer" from not travelling with you, particularly when your relationship was as fraught as yours and Lora's was/is. If what you say about Lora is true (on threads and in your blogs) then I don't think you saying anything would have helped because she is too unstable to handle that in a productive way.

I know you have said this isn't about John, but I can't help suggesting that this is to do with John. Honestly, I do not like to feel as if I am controlling my partners, but if all you say about her is true, I would be extremely annoyed at my partner keeping up friendly contact with her. Dinners and the sort would say to me that he is open to rekindling a relationship with her and that he isn't aggrieved by what she put me through. It would essentially be him saying that it's okay. If all that you say about Lora is true, then I do think there should be enough anger on his side for him to not be able to socialize with her in any kind of positive way. If I were you, I would be expecting him to rekindle things with her the way he is going about this, and if I did not feel I could walk away from him, I would be planning what I am going to do when it all starts up again. That would look something like this thread.

 

[LizziE]

Which is how I would probably say you could handle it if a situation like that came up in the future. Let the hinge handle it in the moment, but if it's a problem for you, and you and your metamour have a connection where you can talk to each other, sit down with them later on when you're both calm and say "I feel very uncomfortable when you and Jon argue in front of me like you did at (that event). Since the argument seemed to be about the order in which he greeted us when we arrived together, I think the best thing to do to avoid the problem in the future is for us to go separately."

Spot on about Lora, and her MO of gaslighting people that she, herself is gaslighting.

But more importantly (and more generally), I really love that wording and the idea of talking to both of them in a day or two about it. Since it is sort of a shared problem between both people. It'd also be a good chance to see how they would handle something like that, as a couple, and as part of a greater group of the three of us.

When I was dating both Issi and her husband Jared, a situation came up (I can't remember exactly what it was, it was one of those "not a huge deal, but it bugs me enough and happens often enough that I want to address it" things. I do remember it was a sex thing, and something they did regularly that I wasn't comfortable with, and was hoping to change when we all had sex together) that I mentioned to both of them (which made more sense to me at the time, as I was dating both of them. vs situations where the problem is between a hinge and my meta, where I'm only dating one of them). In addition to hearing me out, they both then had a talk (in front of me) about it, and also included me, as they hashed out an easy fix. It was really enlightening (and built even more confidence in me about having a relationship with both of them) to see the respectful way that they both spoke to each other and worked towards a solution.

So it'd be helpful, I think, in future situations with a hinge and a meta (or two partners), to foster a similar kind of situation, and see how they interact/handle it. Especially if this was a relatively new relationship, it'd probably give me a lot of feedback on if I want to continue to have a relationship with the hinge or if they're communication is problematic enough that getting out early would be the better idea.

 

[Leetah]

I believe there are any number of websites on how to deal with people who have Personality disorders and other mental problems. This one has been mentioned here before:

http://outofthefog.net/

I totally get where you are coming from LizziE. I think about the same kind of thing so as to be prepared for things that life might throw at me.It would be useful knowledge beyond just metamour relations as you, and all of us, are likely to run into similar situations both socially and professionally. Having an idea how to handle yourself and the problem person makes life easier.

Leetah

 

[LizziE]

It would be useful knowledge beyond just metamour relations as you, and all of us, are likely to run into similar situations both socially and professionally. Having an idea how to handle yourself and the problem person makes life easier.

Yup yup. And even if it's not perfect, as in, I'm not looking for the "magic words" that would diffuse a situation and make it all harmonious and perfect. It's just helpful for me to have an idea what my stance is and how I'm willing to handle something, before it even happens.

If something similar happened with someone I was dating, and their other partner, and I brought it up and they said something like "Well, that's a completely ridiculous stance to take, and you're being over-sensitive. Everything is fine the way it is", then I'd probably say something like "I respect that this is fine for you. But it is not over-sensitive of me to feel the way I do, and if you think that my feelings do make me over-sensitive, then continuing a relationship here isn't going to be good for any of us, as we seem to have very different ideas about what is acceptable in a relationship".

I think my situation with Jon was unique for me, in that I don't know that I'll ever meet someone that I have quite the bond with, that I do with him. And I've learned (from speaking to Jon more frankly towards the end of his break-up with Lora, as well as after the break-up) that I really could have spoken up FAR more about certain things. It would have done both him and me a lot good if I did (Lora, probably not so much). Because there were things that bothered me that I didn't know if I had the "right" to bring them up (like this), so I didn't. And because of that, I didn't know just how much they also bothered him, and that he would have pushed back against Lora even harder, had he known how bothered I was.

But I had a huge amount of fear that pushing things would look like I was trying to be a cowgirl. And Jon agrees that Lora, at the very least, would have taken a lot things in that manner, had I spoken up to her about them.

And there was also that it was entirely new for both me and Lora to be living with a partner and a metamour. Jon has had the experience of living with partners in a triad before, but not living as a hinge with two loves. So while he had SOME experience in a similar situation, it was also very different, between the triad dynamic and also the two women in the triad didn't have the kinds of insecurities that Lora did. So we were all learning there too.

Even though the Jon/Lora situation was (I think) a very unique situation for me, I know that there could be a lot of situations with other people, both loves of mine and my metamours through them AND metamours through Jon, where similar things arise. And hell, to your point of things outside of lovers and metamours, similar situations could potentially happen between a friend with a jealous partner. So I think that a lot of this is - for me - figuring out where I feel comfortable placing my boundaries in terms of those types of interactions.

 

[opalescent]

I follow a pretty simple rule when deciding if I need to speak to someone about a behavior that is bothering me, either in the moment or later on.

Will speaking up help me be more open and authentic? I speak up for me - to be authentic and fully myself. I hope to be understood by the other person and I do my best to communicate in ways that can be heard better by another person. (The usual nonviolent communication suggestions.) But me speaking up is not actually about them, even if their behavior is the catalyst. It's about me, setting boundaries, bringing up problems as I perceive them, and listening in response.

It's great if my speaking out changes the bothersome behavior or has some positive impact. A reason to speak up is to try to get the other person to see their behavior from your point of view. Sometimes that works to change things. But I don't expect that (well more accurately, I try not to expect that.) I find that often just speaking my truth, even when hard, is enough for me to feel good about how I handled a situation, even if that situation is not resolved immediately as a result of my bringing stuff up. And sometimes speaking up is the pebble that begins the avalanche. It can lead to change. But change, while a worthwhile goal, is not something you can control through speaking up. It's more of a side benefit.

You do know that it mattered not at all to Luna if you spoke up or not. She doesn't have the capability to really see another's point of view. What mattered is that you (eventually) spoke up to Jon about what you were seeing and experiencing and, because he has that capacity, eventually he listened, and acted and things changed.

Speaking up is something you do for yourself, LizziE, not for the other person.

 

[breathemusic]

The only thing I can see that you might have done is tell her *later*, well after the fact when she was hopefully calm, that it was unpleasant for you to see her and Jon arguing, and that if she has a problem with the order in which you're greeted, it's best that you don't travel together.

THIS!

In a broad sense, if a metamour freaks out over something and I think we're in a setting where an argument/debate/discussion is inappropriate, I'd suggest not saying anything in the moment, especially if it might make things worse. However, rather than feel like you have to make up excuses when future similar situations present themselves, I'd suggest that soon after the initial event, or the first time a similar situation comes up, just be up front that you feel like she/whoever reacted poorly last time in that circumstance, so for that reason, you're opting not to put yourself in that situation anymore. In this particular example, that would mean saying either soon after the wedding, or at the next travel sharing opportunity just saying, last time we did that it caused drama that you're not interested in re-creating, so no thanks, you'd rather travel separately.

By never bringing it up, there's no way for the other person to realize that they made you uncomfortable.

 

[Willow64]

I feel strongly that you should NOT put yourself in the middle of anything like that. This was between them and Lora was clearly overreacting. If you put yourself in the middle of something like that, you take the chance that they will patch it up quickly and then you will be hanging out on a limb, with both of them pissed at you. I think you handled it well.

 

[LizziE]

I feel strongly that you should NOT put yourself in the middle of anything like that. This was between them and Lora was clearly overreacting. If you put yourself in the middle of something like that, you take the chance that they will patch it up quickly and then you will be hanging out on a limb, with both of them pissed at you. I think you handled it well.

Jon is definitely not the type to get pissed off at something like that. If I were dealing with Jon and Lora again, I know the things that I can bring to Jon (like that) that I was afraid to bring to him before. He would definitely want to know, and also understand why I wouldn't want to be around something like that.

Lora...Lora would probably just be upset that someone actually called her on her behavior and have a freak-out about it and try to blame someone else for her actions. But that's Lora.

New people, if this happened with a new person I was dating and my new metamour...if they were both pissed at me for bringing it up, that would be a solid sign that that is not a relationship that I want to be in.

Which is kind of one of my points. If someone were to react like that, what I'm realizing is that I'd want to know RIGHT AWAY. As soon as possible, if that is their way of handling a situation like that. Because I don't want to be in relationships with people like that, so I'd rather know and get out early on, than stay and deal with more shit (and bigger shit) later.

By never bringing it up, there's no way for the other person to realize that they made you uncomfortable.

Exactly!

And if I haven't been clear, I'm doing two things here: one is looking at this in terms of interaction with future partners and new (but similar) situations.

I'm also retrospectively looking back at how I could have handled things differently with Lora, for my own personal edification. And I wonder, had I made it clear, early on, that this was a boundary for me, it may have caused her to think twice about behaving in that manner in the future.

Even if it *didn't* cause her to think that, it would be a thing for me to call on, when further things happen: "Lora, I already told you after the fight at the wedding that I am NOT comfortable being around you and Jon fighting because you perceive that he treats me better/pays more attention to me than you. If you cannot become comfortable with the give-and-take of Jon sometimes paying more attention to you, and sometimes paying more attention to me when we're all together, then the three of us need to limit our time together. I don't feel comfortable when the three of us spend time together, because I never know when you're going to compare Jon's behavior towards me as more favorable than his behavior towards you. That makes our time together extremely unpleasant to me, and I don't want to be in a dynamic where I always feel compared to someone else".

That is, for the record, me ad-libbing something that I did eventually tell Lora. She apologized, and swore she'd do so much better, but she forgot that within days, and we were back to the same old patterns. I don't know if that's because I said it too late, or if it would never had made a difference.

One thing I learned from my experience with Jon and Lora is that I really was much too patient with Lora's bad behavior. If I could do it all again, I'd call her on her shit a lot sooner. I would have also said that we needed to go back to living separately again, with Jon traveling between homes, far sooner, I think.

So those are things that I would definitely apply to future relationships, if/when they come my way and have similar conflict.