It's a Texlahoma Story

I learn so much about myself from my reactions to other members' stories here.

One thing I've always known, but that gets reinforced daily reading here, is that I'm a very concrete thinker. Facts and specifics, please. Abstract ideas make my head hurt. My brain cannot even process an idea like, "allow love to flourish" or "address issues that threaten our relationship". What does that even mean :confused: Give me something I can work with, like "check in before scheduling overnights".

Another thing I've realized is that I am ridiculously cautious in relationships, at least compared to the norm on this site. I make friends easily. I trust people unless they've given me a reason not to. I connect with people emotionally and have wonderful deep conversations even the first time I meet them. But I move slooooowly when it comes to depending on people and letting them become an important part of my life.

There were a couple of guys I dated for a few months each between breaking up with Tyler and meeting Dag. I can't even remember now why things didn't work out with them, but the relationships never really gained any steam. Both times, I ended things with your basic, hey, this really isn't working, but I wish you the best. And both of them continued to call and text and email wanting to "work on things" or "get closure". For months. My read was that either 1) the dudes were really desperate to get laid one last time or 2) these were some seriously unhinged people and thank fuck I dodged that bullet. But now I'm wondering, maybe some people get attached in just a few months. Maybe they actually cared about me and valued our relationship even in that short amount of time.

It's not that I think people are disposable or that it's ok to treat them like shit - I treat everyone fairly, to the best of my ability, whether I know them well or not. It's just ... It takes me a long time, like a years long time, to get to the point where I open my heart and get attached to someone.

Dag and I had been dating for about six months when I had surgery last spring. He came over and brought me food and comics to read, so sweet. About two weeks after my surgery, Andy went out if town for work, and lacking adult supervision, I decided running six weeks before I was allowed to sounded like a good plan :rolleyes: I ripped an incision wide open. I called my friend K, she took me to the doctor; I called Andy, he flew five hours home. I didnt tell Dag until everything was under control - and that hurt his feelings. But who calls a guy they've only been dating for six months in a crisis? A lot of people, apparently. Not me, though.

All this is my way of explaining - it's crazy confusing to me when I see people mourning short lived relationships or grieving for what might have been. I simply don't place much value on "possibility" or "maybe". Established relationships have a much higher priority for me than new ones. (It feels weird even writing that, it's like writing "the sky is blue".) Now that Dag and I have been together a while, I see that relationship as one deserving of priority and protection, same as my relationship with my husband. I just can't see accepting ANY risk to an *existing* relationship for the sake of a *possible* relationship.

It's not couple privilege as much as a tenure system ;)
 
I can't help but feel some of your post was written in response to someone else's journal post. :)

I don't feel I mourn lost relationships. Well, not anymore. But this time I guess I felt like firstly I was mostly to blame, and my post was a mea culpa and a reminder to myself that there are mistakes I don't want to make twice. Also, well, I do have feelings for her--which I foolishly waited until this week to express--and so I'm still longing a bit.

I realize I still carry a torch for The Star. But as I learn more about what a mature poly relationship should look like, that torch is dimming. I can do better than someone who deliberately hurt me and someone I love. The realization I came to recently is that I had a chance to do that and through my own negligence lost it. Even at my most practical I'll still feel some sorrow for that.
 
OnceAndFuture said:
I can't help but feel some of your post was written in response to someone else's journal post. :)
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Maybe a little bit ;)

I don't feel I mourn lost relationships. Well, not anymore. But this time I guess I felt like firstly I was mostly to blame, and my post was a mea culpa and a reminder to myself that there are mistakes I don't want to make twice.
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I actually was thinking about your reaction to this recent situation - not The Star, I completely get mourning and wondering about a relationship that had such a huge impact on your life.

Just thought it was interesting that in your shoes, I would have not have been thinking I made any mistakes by not going beyond friendship with this new woman.

I mean obviously I don't know the whole story ;) But what I've read on your blog, you and The Signal are moving very slowly into trying poly again, and I think that's totally ok. If someone doesn't want to move at your pace, wait until you're truly ready, maybe that's not a "missed chance" - maybe it's just discovering that this wasn't the right person for you at this point in your life.

That's the PC version... Since this is my little corner of the interwebz, I'll say it a little more bluntly :p If a potential partner bailed because I wanted to proceed cautiously, or because I wouldn't push my other partner's boundaries for their sake, I'd say good riddance!
 
Well, um, I kind of did go beyond friendship. Then I got scared and tried to walk it back and I assumed it was OK. That's where I went wrong. And I totally take responsibility for that.
 
I'm trying to find a way to say this that won't make me sound completely cynical...

Trying... Trying... Nope, just gonna have to sound cynical :D

The VAST majority of crushes and first dates and even boyfriends/girlfriends are not going to be the next great love of our lives. That doesn't mean they aren't worth experiencing or that they don't have value! Crushes and flings and such can be wonderful! But realistically, most of them are not going to become forever relationships. That's true whether you're poly or mono. It's just ... dating.

Flirting and swooning and crushing on someone doesn't obligate you to be in a relationship with them. Dating someone doesn't obligate you to stay with them forever and ever and ever. Maybe you're not long term compatible. Maybe you want different things. Maybe one of you changes your mind about wanting a relationship at this time. Even those open-hearted folks who jump into relationships with NRE guns blazing need to be cognizant of this.

Personally, I think it's always 100% ok to "walk it back" if you need to. The other party can say "no thanks, not interested in anything other than a romantic relationship right now". But that doesn't negate your right not to want to be in that kind of relationship, with that person, at that time.

I sound like a sexual assault psa :) Just because you said yes before does not mean you have to say yes this time! You can withdraw your enthusiastic consent at any point!

Once And Future, I really don't think you need to feel guilty about being genuinely confused and unsure of your boundaries. We've ALL been there. I'm sure we'll all be there again. Sometimes you don't know where the line is until you step on it. And if you handled things badly, well, you apologized, that's all you can do. That, and hope the other party can be a grown-up about stuff and accept your apology ;)
 
This week has just kicked my ass :(

So Monday our dryer died, and fixing it would mean waiting for a new part and cost almost as much as a new dryer. Ok, time to buy a new dryer. Went and ordered one Tuesday night, it got delivered yesterday. The delivery guy left some tools behind, so today his girlfriend came to pick them up. I guess she didn't want to back out of the long driveway :confused: so she tried to turn around on the front lawn... And lost traction in the mud, slid all around, and got stuck. I had to come home and supervise the tow truck extraction, and now I guess I get to deal with calling her insurance company to get my property damages covered.

So that's 3 days of work missed this week - 1 each for dryer repair estimate, dryer delivery, and watching a tow truck tear up my driveway while pulling an SUV through my roses - at a job where I already feel I can't keep up :cool:

ETA - I sound ok now, but I was sooooo not ok a few hours ago. I ended up canceling my date with Dag, because I was hyperventilating and wanted nothing but cocoa and blankets and time to comfort my extremely freaked out puppy dogs. So stay tuned for the post about how guilty I feel about canceling on the world's best boyfriend :rolleyes:
 
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After resting my brain for a day, I'm feeling MUCH more sane :) But I still have the "I'm a shitty girlfriend" thoughts rolling around in my head.

It's weird, I don't feel much guilt canceling or rescheduling things with partners if it's because someone else needs me. Canceling on Dag because Andy is sick, blowing off dinner plans with Andy because I have to work late, rescheduling with K because D is only in town for one night and I see her less often - that stuff happens plenty. And I might feel bad if I cancel last minute, but in general, life happens and we are all busy and we roll with it.

But I feel So. Much. Guilt. for wanting alone time. I feel weak and selfish and all kinds of horrible for needing time to myself. Especially when I need that time because I'm sad or anxious. I should want my loved ones at those times, right? But when I'm unhappy all I want is SPACE. Don't talk to me. Don't sit next to me. Wait for me to come to you.

Dating Dag means trying to explain this stuff to a new person, to go through the learning curve all over again. Sometimes it feels like deja vu :rolleyes: When Andy and I were first dating, it used to crush him that I wanted to be alone when I was sad or stressed. After a few years, though, he realized that trying to be near me when I was upset just prolonged the freak out. Once he realized his choices were, "spend hours and hours trying unsuccessfully to comfort Claire, until we both cry ourselves to sleep" or "let Claire do her thing for 30 minutes and get herself back to normal", well... Let's just say that last night when he saw me stressed out, my husband buried himself in NCIS reruns!

Dag doesn't get it yet, though. He is one of those people who needs zero alone time. We were talking about it once, I guessed that my ideal was maybe one hour alone time a day, more if I'm stressed out. He looked at me like I was crazy, said his ten minute commute twice a day was more than enough alone time for him, and even that is hard when he's stressed, because that's when he needs people more. So, asking for space without hurting him is tough. I say I need space, he texts nonstop. I say I really can't text right now, he writes long emails instead. I tell him I'll write back when I feel a little better, he starts texting again :mad: I know it's coming from a loving place. He wants to help. He wants to be there for me. But seriously, sometimes I just need TEN FUCKING MINUTES of quiet.
 
For all my bitching, I am actually glad Dag emailed me last night, because sometimes that's the best way for him to communicate the "tough stuff" and I think there was a lot he needed to share.

Most of the messages were the mushy romantic kind that would just make everybody gag :eek: but he also wrote quite a bit about what's going on in his marriage. (No, I don't follow the thought process of "Claire is having a shit day ---> I'll unload about my other relationship", but whatever.)

Since I've known him, Dag has been frustrated by the lack of connection and intimacy in his marriage. Not necessarily romance or sex, just a sense of being a couple. At least in the one-sided version I've heard, it's his wife who's no longer interested in putting any work in on that. But he and Elvissa are committed to staying married for at least as long as their kids are home - and with a special needs kid, that could be longer than average. I have no idea what she sees happening after that; I know Dag hopes they will eventually rebuild their life as a couple, not just co-parents.

In light of all that, what he wrote last night surprised me. He said that he's pretty much stopped trying to foster any intimate connection with Elvissa... That it no longer bothers him that they are just "Family and Kids, Incorporated". Apparently they were talking and laughing about it the other night, how they're basically colleagues in the business of kid-raising. Normally that would give Dag the sads, but it sounds like he's ok with it right now. He said he gets enough love and intimacy from *our* relationship that he feels fulfilled.

I'm not sure what to think about that. I mean, I don't have to think *anything* about it, it's not my relationship. I wouldn't want a marriage where we disappeared to opposite ends of the house as soon as the kids finished dinner - or traded "shifts" - but it's not my marriage. If he's happy, I'm happy. I think. :confused: I guess what nags at me is the worry that somehow I've caused this, it's my fault, and if it wasn't for me, they'd be closer. And then I think, dang, how narcissistic am I, assuming their marriage is all about me :rolleyes:
 
One note on the rules and boundaries you discussed earlier on this thread:

Here are mine and Andy's:
1. No having kids with anybody
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Here are mine and Dag's:
Birth control!!! Always!!!
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Do you have a plan what to do if the birth control fails? It can happen.

Me and CJ had the same rule: no having kids with anybody. Nowadays we have an agreement on the level of birth control we are using with others, and are aware of the possibility of it failing. Our plan is "Let's discuss it in more detail if it happens." I am not willing to have an abortion, so in the case of me getting preggers to a "wrong" guy, it is up to CJ to decide whether or not to continue living with me.
 
Nadya said:
One note on the rules and boundaries you discussed earlier on this thread:
Do you have a plan what to do if the birth control fails? It can happen.
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Oh, I'd get an abortion so fast everyone's head would spin.

I know that sounds flip, it's not... I'm just matter of fact about it because it's something I've thought about for the entire 20 years I've been sexually active. My extended family is crazy pants :rolleyes: Not like "some relatives need therapy and medication to function at their best", more like "my uncle didn't leave his bedroom for ten years, and spoke only to the gerbils that he encouraged to nest in his beard". In the terms you used on your having kids thread, I don't regret being born, but I regret the existence of the vast majority of my biological kin. No desire to make more of them.

So, vasectomy for Andy long ago, and much planning before deciding to be sexual with any partner who hasn't had one. I take my pill every day, and I have Plan B on my bathroom shelf if I ever take some medication that interferes with the pill. I keep up with the reproductive rights situation around the country so I know exactly which Blue State to fly to if I should find myself pregnant. (Texas is, um, not known for easy access to reproductive health services.)

The interesting part of all this, poly-wise, has been negotiating boundaries with Dag. I explained my "hell no" position on bio kids to him before we ever slept together. Dag is pro-choice but in that liberal Catholic style of "I could never do it though!" My response was, having your "baby" aborted is a risk of sleeping with me. A very low risk, considering the precautions, but it's there. And knowing your position on it, I probably wouldn't tell you beforehand. Just because I know I'd terminate a pregnancy doesn't mean it would be easy or pleasant for me, and the last thing I'd want is a guilt trip.

Oddly, knowing I would do it with or without his support (my body, my call, not even sorry dude) made it easier for him. I think what scared him was the idea of having to make that decision. I am pretty sure he'd end our relationship if this ever happened, though, I don't think he'd be able to deal with the guilt. Which sucks, but sucks much less than having a kid I don't want. And I'm guessing here, maybe he'd surprise me. For me, pregnancy - with any partner - is one of those situations where there's no *good* outcome, so you just go with the least shitty choice.
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
Oh, I'd get an abortion so fast everyone's head would spin.
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To me, that sounds like a perfectly valid plan :) You've read my thread about the baby issue, and I am 100% pro-choice. Your body, your call. And, I think this world does not need any more unwanted kids. If you know for sure what you want - good for you! And, also good that your partners are aware of your thoughts.
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
Oh, I'd get an abortion so fast everyone's head spin.

The interesting part of all this, poly-wise, has been negotiating boundaries with Dag. I explained my "hell no" position on bio kids to him before we ever slept together. Dag is pro-choice but in that liberal Catholic style of "I could never do it though!" My response was, having your "baby" aborted is a risk of sleeping with me. A very low risk, considering the precautions, but it's there. And knowing your position on it, I probably wouldn't tell you beforehand. Just because I know I'd terminate a pregnancy doesn't mean it would be easy or pleasant for me, and the last thing I'd want is a guilt trip.

Oddly, knowing I would do it with or without his support (my body, my call, not even sorry dude) made it easier for him. I think what scared him was the idea of having to make that decision. I am pretty sure he'd end our relationship if this ever happened, though, I don't think he'd be able to deal with the guilt. Which sucks, but sucks much less than having a kid I don't want. And I'm guessing here, maybe he'd surprise me. For me, pregnancy - with any partner - is one of those situations where there's no *good* outcome, so you just go with the least shitty choice.
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Anyone that I've had sex with more than once or twice knows that if I happen to get pregnant, I'd have an abortion. I have young adult children and there's no way in hell that I'd be open to the idea of starting the whole parenting gig over again. My boys both have said that they'd move out the minute they found out I was pregnant. I'm weird in that I like living with my kids, a lot of people I know can't wait until their kids are 18 so that they can kick them out. Plus, I got married when I was 18 and I'm well aware of how hard it is to support yourself when you are that young and would like my kids to be able to support themselves above the poverty line before they move out. In addition, my husband has said that me having a baby is a hard limit for him, he'd leave if I did. Plus, I was miserable being pregnant in my early 20s and had some complications, so I can imagine it would be worse now in my early 40s.

I guess I just wanted you to know you aren't the only one who has getting pregnant as a hard limit.

Edited to add: I know a lot of people have no pregnancy as a limit, but a lot of times it seems like it's because of emotions, that they don't think that they would be able to handle the emotions that would come up from having children outside the primary relationship. Your limit seems based on logic (not wanting to chance wonky genes being passed down) and so is mine, health concerns and feeling like I'm done with that stage in my life. I wanted you to know you weren't the only one basing the decision on logic instead of emotions. I know I've had people think I'm strange for being so unemotional about the decision, so wanted you to know you weren't alone if you've faced the same thing.
 
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Reading about what people have to go through to make sure they don't get pregnant, and about what they would do if they did is enough to make me glad I had to have a hysterectomy in 2009... Though at this point, even if I hadn't had the hysterectomy, I would probably be too old to get pregnant.
 
Nadya, I just wanted to say I really admire how much thought you're putting into having a child - it's a big change but an exciting one :) And amen to the too many unwanted kids. Most of the kids I work with were, if not *unwanted*, at least not conceived with careful consideration and planning. Kids are a game changer, I wish more moms-to-be realized that.

Hannahfluke said:
I know a lot of people have no pregnancy as a limit, but a lot of times it seems like it's because of emotions, that they don't think that they would be able to handle the emotions that would come up from having children outside the primary relationship. Your limit seems based on logic (not wanting to chance wonky genes being passed down) and so is mine, health concerns and feeling like I'm done with that stage in my life. I wanted you to know you weren't the only one basing the decision on logic instead of emotions. I know I've had people think I'm strange for being so unemotional about the decision, so wanted you to know you weren't alone if you've faced the same thing.
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It is nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks of kids/no kids in logical terms :) I get a lot of "oh you don't like kids?" which is bizarre. Yeah, I hate kids, that's why I work with them eight hours a day for slightly more than minimum wage :rolleyes:

Pregnancy and abortion are touchy subjects, and I'm all for everyone having whatever feels they want about the topic, as long as they don't try to restrict other women's choices. Stephanie and Anna-Louise have both had abortions... For Stephanie it was a non-event, both times, an inconvenience like having a root canal. Anna-Louise still feels she made the right decision, but she goes to a lot of abortion grief group stuff. Andy has even gone with her on her yearly rememberance ritual trips (and no, wasn't his, he's just an awesome friend-boy that way.) So I can't be sure I'd be so nonchalant if it actually happened to me. But I can hope I'd make a logical decision even drowning in hormones.

KC43 - too old to worry anymore is what my grandmother thought, until she got pregnant with my uncle, at 45, with three kids already in high school :p

And yes the not-getting-preggers shit is a pain in the butt. I'm lucky, my body doesn't mind hormonal bc (I'll survive the 3 lb weight gain), and I'm OCD enough that taking a pill at the same time every day isn't an issue. I have two close friends who can't take any hormonal bc, and they have spent years fighting to get IUDs paid for, while trying to find doctors who would tie their tubes.

Doctors and their, 'but what if you want more babies???" just make me want to punch somebody :mad: Though, at least in my experience, they're equally "but babies!!!!" to men and women. Andy was pretty young when he got his vasectomy, plus we didn't have any kids, the doctor totally tried to talk him out of it. And every married guy I know who's gotten snipped had to have his wife sign a consent form :rolleyes:
 
My husband was really young when he got his vasectomy, only 24. However, we first asked about it with our family doctor, who had been my doctor for both pregnancies, so he knew first hand how miserable I was pregnant. The vasectomy was done by the urologist in the same clinic with our family doctor there. No one gave us a hard time, so I wonder if our doctor fielded all that for us. Of course, we also had 2 kids, so maybe that has something to do with it also.

I've had a few experiences that I took the morning after pill for. After the last one, I went on birth control pills, which, since I was splitting my time between my ex boyfriend's house and my house, couldn't be by the rest of my pills because I might forget to take it with me to my boyfriend's house, so I would occasionally forget a pill and we'd go back to using condoms for a week. I got an IUD because I was sick of worrying about the pills. Even though it occasionally makes my periods weird, I'm glad I got it and will replace it next year when the 5 years is up.

I definitely had a mental adjustment period after not using birth control for 13 years to have to worry about it again when we opened up our marriage. I had thought I was done with all that :)
 
This is a particularly important issue for me, vasectomy. For various medical reasons there would be a high risk of failure involved if I had one. One of our absolute firewalls in our boundaries is "no children with others". Obviously there are other methods to prevent pregnancy, but having the most appropriate one being unavailable could be an issue some day.

Like everything else, negotiation and communication will be important if it becomes an issue. I've had this adult conversation before and maybe I'll have to have it again.
 
Hannahfluke said:
I definitely had a mental adjustment period after not using birth control for 13 years to have to worry about it again when we opened up our marriage. I had thought I was done with all that :)
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Yup, same here!

OnceAndFuture's post made me think, I wish there were more male birth control options, something more reliable (and fun) than condoms and less permanent than vasectomy. I'll be honest, I would be nervous if Andy had to rely on his other partners for pregnancy prevention. Of course that might be my inner control freak talking ;)

I do think our not having any kids made the doc especially nervous about doing Andy's vasectomy. Go forth and multiply is taken quite seriously here :rolleyes:

This is how meeting new potential friends frequently goes for me:

New Person: So, do you have kids???
Me: No, just the spoiled rotten dogs. How about you?
New Person: We have five!!! Now don't worry, you're young, you have plenty of time! My sister had a baby at 42!
Me: Huh? Oh... Actually we don't want kids... So, are you a Cowboys fan?
New Person: You'll change your mind, I bet! My cousin never wanted kids but now she has four!
Me: Haha. Um. So did you see the game last night?
New Person: She was older than you are now, conceived right away.
Me: (blank stare)
New Person: And more and more insurance companies are covering in vitro now.
Me: (backs away slowly)
New Person: Plus, you can always adopt! Those Chinese babies are adorable! Where are you going?
 
The whole go forth and multiple is taken very seriously here too, living in the heart of Mormon country. When I was a Mormon, I often found myself being questioned by other members about why I only had two kids. When I'd say it was because being pregnant was difficult for me physically and mentally, I'd often be lectured about how I didn't have enough faith in God and that he would provide the solutions if I'd only trust him. Personally, when I believed in God, I also believed he gave us brains for a reason and we should use them in examining our capacity for handling situations and not knowingly put ourselves in situations we can't handle.
 
I agree that I wish there was a middle ground for male birth control between removable barrier and "permanent." That would lead to a bit more flexibility. But, to be honest, I don't think a lot of my gender could be trusted on regular birth control. "Oh yeah, I've been taking all my pills, we don't need condoms." Sorry guys, I'm one of you and even I would :rolleyes: at that.
 
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