Smelling the flowers
- Thread starter Petunia
- Start date
So much time has passed, but my life has held steady. That coupled with work picking up I haven't taken time to post here.
So, MusicMan said he'd contact me on the weekend, but didn't. So far this week I haven't heard from him either and I'm okay with that. I think. Truthfully, I forget that I haven't heard from him, so obviously it's not upsetting, but I do feel that it would be nice to have him in my life so I'm kind of sad that it seems we are going to let this fade away.
Golden seems sad these days. He had three out of four relationships kind of drop off the map in the past month. DNRGirl started a mono relationship and his other interest, not sure if I put a name to her, is so busy with directing a play that opens in two weeks that she has next to no time for him. He also has a couple of other factors that are adding to his down spirits; it's the anniversary of his mother passing and he had to change ADHD meds and they are affecting him as his body adjusts to them. He was quiet at dinner last night and afterwards he laid on the couch in the dark. I checked in with him and he put it down to the new meds.
Last night before we had moved away from the dinner table, Bond asked me if I had thoughts about remodeling the kitchen. I was taken by surprise. I smiled guiltily, but managed to own up to having some very detailed thoughts about the kitchen. He listened to my ideas without making me feel like I was off my rocker. He even helped things along by letting me know that his wife had wanted to knock out the pantry/oven peninsula that makes the kitchen so small. I admitted that I wanted it to go too. I explained my idea of flipping the wall the refrigerator and freezer are on to the wall where the cooktop is now and putting in an island with a gas cooktop and oven, plus storage, and putting a narrow cupboard along the wall where the refrigerator and freezer sit now. He was so open and I was able to get it all out there even though it was scary to voice all my ideas. He plans on getting software so we can play around and see if the changes I want to make are possible.
Later when we were between television shows I asked him what we were going to do about Spring Break. He was still resistant to renting a vehicle for some reason. He was telling me how the boys wouldn't have any more leg room in a van than they do in one of our cars (we have matching cars). Whatever. I stood my ground and refuted his claim. We drive Ford C-Max Energi's. They are compact cars. Pfft.
At some point, he said that this sort of thing scares him. (i.e., the planning) He's said this before, well, maybe not in those exact words. I think he has said that it makes him nervous and kind of sick. I would really like to know what the underlying fear is there. I don't get how talking and planning an expensive remodeling job is less stressful than deciding to spend less than $500 renting a van.
From what he has said before I knew he'd love for me to make the arrangements, so this morning I checked out prices to rent a van. We were in communication during the process and we sorted out all the details. During that process he sent me an IM that said, "I Love you!" Cute, huh?
So, we're leaving the evening of March 18th for San Antonio. Nineteen+ hours of driving straight through with three kids. I'm sure I'll be frazzled, look like I've been pulled through a keyhole backwards, and be totally sleep deprived when I meet his mother. I must fucking love this man.
We plan on getting back home on the 25th and taking the boys directly to their mother's, so we can have two days of peace and quiet before going back to work. That will be the vacation.
Today I had lunch with a friend I haven't seen in awhile. She wanted to feel me out about taking part in a sex party she and her partner were throwing. I've had two threesomes with them in the past. They were more fun than I had anticipated, but I have no interest in going there again. Nada. Zilch. It was flattering to be asked, and it's great that I'm their first pick, and that their unicorn has the hots for me, but I don't wanna.
So, MusicMan said he'd contact me on the weekend, but didn't. So far this week I haven't heard from him either and I'm okay with that. I think. Truthfully, I forget that I haven't heard from him, so obviously it's not upsetting, but I do feel that it would be nice to have him in my life so I'm kind of sad that it seems we are going to let this fade away.
Golden seems sad these days. He had three out of four relationships kind of drop off the map in the past month. DNRGirl started a mono relationship and his other interest, not sure if I put a name to her, is so busy with directing a play that opens in two weeks that she has next to no time for him. He also has a couple of other factors that are adding to his down spirits; it's the anniversary of his mother passing and he had to change ADHD meds and they are affecting him as his body adjusts to them. He was quiet at dinner last night and afterwards he laid on the couch in the dark. I checked in with him and he put it down to the new meds.
Last night before we had moved away from the dinner table, Bond asked me if I had thoughts about remodeling the kitchen. I was taken by surprise. I smiled guiltily, but managed to own up to having some very detailed thoughts about the kitchen. He listened to my ideas without making me feel like I was off my rocker. He even helped things along by letting me know that his wife had wanted to knock out the pantry/oven peninsula that makes the kitchen so small. I admitted that I wanted it to go too. I explained my idea of flipping the wall the refrigerator and freezer are on to the wall where the cooktop is now and putting in an island with a gas cooktop and oven, plus storage, and putting a narrow cupboard along the wall where the refrigerator and freezer sit now. He was so open and I was able to get it all out there even though it was scary to voice all my ideas. He plans on getting software so we can play around and see if the changes I want to make are possible.
Later when we were between television shows I asked him what we were going to do about Spring Break. He was still resistant to renting a vehicle for some reason. He was telling me how the boys wouldn't have any more leg room in a van than they do in one of our cars (we have matching cars). Whatever. I stood my ground and refuted his claim. We drive Ford C-Max Energi's. They are compact cars. Pfft.
At some point, he said that this sort of thing scares him. (i.e., the planning) He's said this before, well, maybe not in those exact words. I think he has said that it makes him nervous and kind of sick. I would really like to know what the underlying fear is there. I don't get how talking and planning an expensive remodeling job is less stressful than deciding to spend less than $500 renting a van.
From what he has said before I knew he'd love for me to make the arrangements, so this morning I checked out prices to rent a van. We were in communication during the process and we sorted out all the details. During that process he sent me an IM that said, "I Love you!" Cute, huh?
So, we're leaving the evening of March 18th for San Antonio. Nineteen+ hours of driving straight through with three kids. I'm sure I'll be frazzled, look like I've been pulled through a keyhole backwards, and be totally sleep deprived when I meet his mother. I must fucking love this man.
We plan on getting back home on the 25th and taking the boys directly to their mother's, so we can have two days of peace and quiet before going back to work. That will be the vacation.
Today I had lunch with a friend I haven't seen in awhile. She wanted to feel me out about taking part in a sex party she and her partner were throwing. I've had two threesomes with them in the past. They were more fun than I had anticipated, but I have no interest in going there again. Nada. Zilch. It was flattering to be asked, and it's great that I'm their first pick, and that their unicorn has the hots for me, but I don't wanna.
It seems like a huge percentage of the population in our area has either a cold or the flu, or have had in the past week or so. Right now I'm dealing with a light cold that I caught from Bond, who caught it from Son #2 (we think.) B is recovering from the flu. I'm really concerned with how hard she gets hit with the flu. She started puking Sunday morning at 7 AM and continued to be sick (and puking) until late Wednesday, and didn't really feel human again until Thursday. She considers it a win, because she didn't have to go to the emergency room for IV's this time. She said that for the past couple of years her body doesn't handle the flu well. All I can think is that some day when she is old it's going to kill her. I never really understood how the flu can take someone's life until now. When she had the flu in August she puked for so many days that her stomach bled. That's just scary.
Because B was still kind of recovering, we didn't plan anything for last night. Well, midday she sent out a message asking if we'd like to eat dinner at her place. By then Bond had made plans to see Bea and I was feeling badly that my Thursday night with Bond was being hijacked, but mostly at that point in the virus all I wanted to do was lay my head down and sleep, so I begged off. I should explain about the hijacked night. It's not as bad as it sounds. Last night was the last opportunity for Bond to see Bea before she goes to Brazil for two weeks. I could hardly say no when he asked. The thing with being sick is that you aren't your emotional self. Even if Bond and I had gone out it wouldn't have been all that emotionally rewarding or connective due to feeling ishy. I knew this, and although it still kind of dinged my heart, telling him to go ahead was the right thing to do. And that ding - it was minor.
I went grocery shopping instead. I didn't eat dinner and I went to the grocery store. Oiy vey. I spent the entire two weeks budget in one trip. The upside is that we probably won't need to shop for much in the next two weeks. I did a lot of stocking up.
After I put away the groceries I made myself this:
Blueberry, Feta and Honey-Carmelized Onion Naan Pizza
Yummy!
Before the naan pizza was out of the oven Bond sent me a text saying he was on his way home. I had listened to my Audible book, Ready Player One, as I shopped and I was down to the last 90 minutes. I had mixed feelings over the fact that he'd be home in about 30 minutes. On the one hand I was happy that I'd still be awake when Bond got home, on the other, I was feeling a scarcity of time in regards to being able to listen to my book. Funny how that is. It's these things I need to remind myself of when I start feeling like I'm loosing out of time with Bond. If I'm not careful I can allow myself to place too much emphasis on what I perceive will be a painful loss, when in reality it's not something I end up feeling.
Because B was still kind of recovering, we didn't plan anything for last night. Well, midday she sent out a message asking if we'd like to eat dinner at her place. By then Bond had made plans to see Bea and I was feeling badly that my Thursday night with Bond was being hijacked, but mostly at that point in the virus all I wanted to do was lay my head down and sleep, so I begged off. I should explain about the hijacked night. It's not as bad as it sounds. Last night was the last opportunity for Bond to see Bea before she goes to Brazil for two weeks. I could hardly say no when he asked. The thing with being sick is that you aren't your emotional self. Even if Bond and I had gone out it wouldn't have been all that emotionally rewarding or connective due to feeling ishy. I knew this, and although it still kind of dinged my heart, telling him to go ahead was the right thing to do. And that ding - it was minor.
I went grocery shopping instead.
I didn't eat dinner and I went to the grocery store. Oiy vey. I spent the entire two weeks budget in one trip. The upside is that we probably won't need to shop for much in the next two weeks. I did a lot of stocking up. After I put away the groceries I made myself this:
Blueberry, Feta and Honey-Carmelized Onion Naan Pizza
Yummy!
Before the naan pizza was out of the oven Bond sent me a text saying he was on his way home. I had listened to my Audible book, Ready Player One, as I shopped and I was down to the last 90 minutes. I had mixed feelings over the fact that he'd be home in about 30 minutes. On the one hand I was happy that I'd still be awake when Bond got home, on the other, I was feeling a scarcity of time in regards to being able to listen to my book. Funny how that is. It's these things I need to remind myself of when I start feeling like I'm loosing out of time with Bond. If I'm not careful I can allow myself to place too much emphasis on what I perceive will be a painful loss, when in reality it's not something I end up feeling.
They are quite reasonable, and I asked B if she gets them. She said that they don't really do anything for her. When she gets the flu it still ravages her body and nearly takes her out.
It's been ages since I've written in here. Last week I almost posted about the latest conflict with Golden, but I didn't have the heart to try to explain it all. That conflict has been the springboard for another this past Sunday night that still isn't resolved. It's so exhausting. He's so exhausting. I'm learning that it's futile to argue with someone who is illogical and conflates issues.
Conflict One
The weekend of March 4th started with Golden totally devastated over something that he wasn't ready to share. He broke down in tears repeatedly and it was obvious that whatever had happened he was deeply affected. He had a big three-part birthday party planned for Saturday night that he canceled in the early hours of Saturday. It was heartrending to see him in so much pain. He vacillated between tears, stoicism, and outbursts of anger. Saturday morning Bond and I were in the kitchen while Golden and his son were playing video games in the living room when Golden yelled at his son over something he said in a nasty tone and booming volume that was totally out of character for him. I was close to one of the doorways, so I peeked my head around the corner to see what was happening. Bond later said that he his first instinct was to go in there, but that he stopped himself, because I had poked my head in there. Another time he threw a fork at the kitchen counter as he was cryptically complaining about the unfairness of the situation and being penalized for someone else's collateral damage.
Wil, Bond's longtime friend, was visiting for the weekend. He arrived Saturday morning. He's such a nice guy and it's always nice to see him.
Anyway, we were all feeling the feels for Golden. Even though he canceled the party I went ahead with making him a birthday cake, because not being up to having a slew of friends over isn't the same as being with your "family" and I didn't want the day to go by without a show of caring and support.
B joined us that evening. (Wil wanted to meet the infamous B.) B cajoled Golden into literally biting the cake so she could take a cool pic of him doing so. I had bought a fantastic Walking Dead pop-up book to give him from Bond and me. (http://www.amazon.com/Walking-Dead-Pop-Up-Book/dp/1608874443/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1458070291&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Walking+Dead%3A+The+Pop-Up+Book)
So, lots of empathy going his direction from me.
Sunday morning I overheard Bond and Wil making plans to go for a walk, so I zipped to the kitchen to find my shoes and then back to the bedroom to grab a jacket. On my way through the living room I breezily invited Golden's son to join us on the walk. (My actual words were, "Hey, [name], we're going for a walk. Want to join us?") Then I spoke to Bond as he was heading downstairs to suggest he invite his oldest son, Z, along and as I was spinning to dash to get my jacket Golden stepped out of the front room and called me over to him. I'd been smiling and feeling peaceful and full of energy. Our morning had been really nice and the weather was nice. Overall, life was pretty nice up until this moment.
Golden stepped close and in a well modulated voice said, "Please do not engage in further dialog with my son about going for a walk."
He may as well have slapped me. I was so taken aback. I replayed in my mind what I had said and I couldn't find anything that would cause offense. I didn't know what I had done wrong, but obviously I must have crossed a line. It's amazing how fast your thoughts can process. In an instant I was thinking that if I couldn't simply invite his son along on a walk, then how could we continue to share living space?
He said that right before I asked [his son] along on the walk, that he had spoken to him. He then said that, "You asking just made [son] react (he made a clenching motion with his hands and face) and now he's totally set against going, because he has a problem with you."
What? This is news to me? [His son] and I get along very well as far as I was aware. I really like this kid! And how could he know how it struck his son when he wasn't even in the same room at the time? It seemed more likely that Golden had a problem with it and in his shitty mood he was lashing out at me.
I was red-hot angry in a millisecond. I grabbed my jacket from the bedroom and left for the walk without waiting for the others. On my way out Golden asked if I'd like to talk afterwards and I retorted that he could count on it.
I was marching along and nearly to the park when a lady and her dog popped around the corner. I didn't feel fit for crossing anyone's path so I turned heel and went back to the house. Wil was outside by his car and we kind of shared space while we waited for everyone to come out. I can't recall our exchange, but I do remember that he conveyed some sympathy over the incident. He was in the front room when Golden spoke to me, so I'm sure he overheard.
I half expected Golden to opt out of the walk, but he didn't. I was so mad I barely looked his direction, but before we all started walking I saw him talking to his son by the tree that is to the side of the driveway in the front yard. His son had red blotchy eyes from crying and Golden was leaning in close and talking to him quietly.
Bond caught up to me for a bit and we were able to exchange enough words privately for me to tell him what Golden had said to me and for him to say that Golden had stopped him before coming outside to say that he had been "calm and polite" and that I had blown up. Bond said he sounded quite proud of his "calm and politeness" and that he was totally playing innocent about being an ass. I was too mad to walk at the slow pace of the pack, so I left them behind at the park and did the circuit by myself. The more I walked the madder I got. I beat them back to the house by a good 10-15 minutes.
I used the time to send Golden an IM.
I'm quite surprised to hear that [son] has a problem with me. I'm trying to recall our interactions, especially of late, and they've been very positive and have felt really good.
The only strife I see when it comes to [son] are your interactions with him, but that makes sense because you're his parent and you have to deal with all that parenting stuff.
I can see where me saying something to him about going for a walk right after you pushed him about it probably came across as adults doubling down on him.
It may have been poor timing, but it's not my fault you had just strong armed him and laid a guilt trip on him.
Your word choice with me was really poor, in my opinion. You could have said, "Hey, I'm already talking to him about it so don't push, okay?" or something like that, but to tell me you don't want me to engage with your son - even if said in a calm manner, was hurtful. I was being nice. I was cheerful. I had no clue that you'd been pushing on him to go. I was innocently inviting him along because I like him and I worry about him feeling left out. That's all. The way you approached me was like a slap in the face.
If you want to talk about showing anger, you've been a caldron of simmering anger since Friday. You were pretty nasty sounding yesterday morning when dealing with the kids. I even poked my head around the corner to see what was up. You were physically rough with things twice that I observed. And this little interaction between the two of us this morning just smacks of more lashing out because you're feeling like shit.
When Golden got back he and I stepped outside in front of the garage to talk/yell.
He explained further that he had told [son] that he wanted him to spend some time outside and that he could either go now on the walk, or later, but that at some point he wanted him outside. He said that [son] was really unhappy about it because he was really into the game and especially because right then it was at a critical point.
He then told me that it doesn't matter if I use enthusiasm or am upbeat that the kids hear the 'anger' in my voice. He "knows that I don't mean it that way, but that's how it comes across to them." That they think I'm bossy and mean.
He was shocked that I could possibly be mad when he had used a calm and polite manner to tell me to not engage in further dialog with his son. I pretty much screamed at him that I didn't give a fuck if he had been calm and polite that it didn't matter. I can't even recall what else I said to him, but I think I told him to fuck off as I was walking away.
Later he sent me this IM:
Golden
to be continued...
Conflict One
The weekend of March 4th started with Golden totally devastated over something that he wasn't ready to share. He broke down in tears repeatedly and it was obvious that whatever had happened he was deeply affected. He had a big three-part birthday party planned for Saturday night that he canceled in the early hours of Saturday. It was heartrending to see him in so much pain. He vacillated between tears, stoicism, and outbursts of anger. Saturday morning Bond and I were in the kitchen while Golden and his son were playing video games in the living room when Golden yelled at his son over something he said in a nasty tone and booming volume that was totally out of character for him. I was close to one of the doorways, so I peeked my head around the corner to see what was happening. Bond later said that he his first instinct was to go in there, but that he stopped himself, because I had poked my head in there. Another time he threw a fork at the kitchen counter as he was cryptically complaining about the unfairness of the situation and being penalized for someone else's collateral damage.
Wil, Bond's longtime friend, was visiting for the weekend. He arrived Saturday morning. He's such a nice guy and it's always nice to see him.
Anyway, we were all feeling the feels for Golden. Even though he canceled the party I went ahead with making him a birthday cake, because not being up to having a slew of friends over isn't the same as being with your "family" and I didn't want the day to go by without a show of caring and support.
B joined us that evening. (Wil wanted to meet the infamous B.) B cajoled Golden into literally biting the cake so she could take a cool pic of him doing so.
I had bought a fantastic Walking Dead pop-up book to give him from Bond and me. (http://www.amazon.com/Walking-Dead-Pop-Up-Book/dp/1608874443/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1458070291&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Walking+Dead%3A+The+Pop-Up+Book) So, lots of empathy going his direction from me.
Sunday morning I overheard Bond and Wil making plans to go for a walk, so I zipped to the kitchen to find my shoes and then back to the bedroom to grab a jacket. On my way through the living room I breezily invited Golden's son to join us on the walk. (My actual words were, "Hey, [name], we're going for a walk. Want to join us?") Then I spoke to Bond as he was heading downstairs to suggest he invite his oldest son, Z, along and as I was spinning to dash to get my jacket Golden stepped out of the front room and called me over to him. I'd been smiling and feeling peaceful and full of energy. Our morning had been really nice and the weather was nice. Overall, life was pretty nice up until this moment.
Golden stepped close and in a well modulated voice said, "Please do not engage in further dialog with my son about going for a walk."
He may as well have slapped me. I was so taken aback. I replayed in my mind what I had said and I couldn't find anything that would cause offense. I didn't know what I had done wrong, but obviously I must have crossed a line. It's amazing how fast your thoughts can process. In an instant I was thinking that if I couldn't simply invite his son along on a walk, then how could we continue to share living space?
He said that right before I asked [his son] along on the walk, that he had spoken to him. He then said that, "You asking just made [son] react (he made a clenching motion with his hands and face) and now he's totally set against going, because he has a problem with you."
What? This is news to me? [His son] and I get along very well as far as I was aware. I really like this kid! And how could he know how it struck his son when he wasn't even in the same room at the time? It seemed more likely that Golden had a problem with it and in his shitty mood he was lashing out at me.
I was red-hot angry in a millisecond. I grabbed my jacket from the bedroom and left for the walk without waiting for the others. On my way out Golden asked if I'd like to talk afterwards and I retorted that he could count on it.
I was marching along and nearly to the park when a lady and her dog popped around the corner. I didn't feel fit for crossing anyone's path so I turned heel and went back to the house. Wil was outside by his car and we kind of shared space while we waited for everyone to come out. I can't recall our exchange, but I do remember that he conveyed some sympathy over the incident. He was in the front room when Golden spoke to me, so I'm sure he overheard.
I half expected Golden to opt out of the walk, but he didn't. I was so mad I barely looked his direction, but before we all started walking I saw him talking to his son by the tree that is to the side of the driveway in the front yard. His son had red blotchy eyes from crying and Golden was leaning in close and talking to him quietly.
Bond caught up to me for a bit and we were able to exchange enough words privately for me to tell him what Golden had said to me and for him to say that Golden had stopped him before coming outside to say that he had been "calm and polite" and that I had blown up. Bond said he sounded quite proud of his "calm and politeness" and that he was totally playing innocent about being an ass. I was too mad to walk at the slow pace of the pack, so I left them behind at the park and did the circuit by myself. The more I walked the madder I got. I beat them back to the house by a good 10-15 minutes.
I used the time to send Golden an IM.
I'm quite surprised to hear that [son] has a problem with me. I'm trying to recall our interactions, especially of late, and they've been very positive and have felt really good.
The only strife I see when it comes to [son] are your interactions with him, but that makes sense because you're his parent and you have to deal with all that parenting stuff.
I can see where me saying something to him about going for a walk right after you pushed him about it probably came across as adults doubling down on him.
It may have been poor timing, but it's not my fault you had just strong armed him and laid a guilt trip on him.
Your word choice with me was really poor, in my opinion. You could have said, "Hey, I'm already talking to him about it so don't push, okay?" or something like that, but to tell me you don't want me to engage with your son - even if said in a calm manner, was hurtful. I was being nice. I was cheerful. I had no clue that you'd been pushing on him to go. I was innocently inviting him along because I like him and I worry about him feeling left out. That's all. The way you approached me was like a slap in the face.
If you want to talk about showing anger, you've been a caldron of simmering anger since Friday. You were pretty nasty sounding yesterday morning when dealing with the kids. I even poked my head around the corner to see what was up. You were physically rough with things twice that I observed. And this little interaction between the two of us this morning just smacks of more lashing out because you're feeling like shit.
When Golden got back he and I stepped outside in front of the garage to talk/yell.
He explained further that he had told [son] that he wanted him to spend some time outside and that he could either go now on the walk, or later, but that at some point he wanted him outside. He said that [son] was really unhappy about it because he was really into the game and especially because right then it was at a critical point.
He then told me that it doesn't matter if I use enthusiasm or am upbeat that the kids hear the 'anger' in my voice. He "knows that I don't mean it that way, but that's how it comes across to them." That they think I'm bossy and mean.
He was shocked that I could possibly be mad when he had used a calm and polite manner to tell me to not engage in further dialog with his son. I pretty much screamed at him that I didn't give a fuck if he had been calm and polite that it didn't matter. I can't even recall what else I said to him, but I think I told him to fuck off as I was walking away.
Later he sent me this IM:
Golden
I am sorry you are hurt. I did not intend to insult you. In fact, my interactions with you this whole week was very pleasant.
My emotions of late have nothing to do with you. I am not angry or anything with you, even now.
I can understand why you are angry, because this is a sensitive subject between us. What shocked me is the sheer rage stemming from this. I asked you very calm and in a sensitive way, but I understand know you need a different approach.
I will endeavor to interact with you in the ways important to you. I would greatly appreciate your guidance on what works for you.
Explaining like you just did now helps. Thank you!
Could we talk about the intensity of your anger towards me sometime? I am concerned that your anger today is representative of other penned up emotions.
My emotions of late have nothing to do with you. I am not angry or anything with you, even now.
I can understand why you are angry, because this is a sensitive subject between us. What shocked me is the sheer rage stemming from this. I asked you very calm and in a sensitive way, but I understand know you need a different approach.
I will endeavor to interact with you in the ways important to you. I would greatly appreciate your guidance on what works for you.
Explaining like you just did now helps. Thank you!
Could we talk about the intensity of your anger towards me sometime? I am concerned that your anger today is representative of other penned up emotions.
to be continued...
Continuing with Conflict One:
Monday night Golden sent me this email:
My response:
Golden's reply was done by inline in BLUE.
Monday night Golden sent me this email:
Dear [Petunia],
On Sunday I experienced from you what I can only describe as blind rage. I am familiar with being the recipient of anger, but not like that; not even with [ex-wife]. Your anger stemmed from a single sentence, and while we can debate on the exact wording, the meanings are not debatable.
I asked you calmly and politely,"Please, don't engage with [son]". You heard something completely different.
Your response was not OK. I am fine with you being angry with me. I am even OK with you suggesting different ways I can phrase things, but I am not OK with is your extreme reaction, it was uncalled for and completely unappropriated.
To be clear, I am not interested in what reality you chose to see and hear. What I am doing is setting my boundaries so that you understand what is and is not OK.
For example yesterday, you described my interactions with [son] as being "angry", "pushy", "strong armed" and "guilt tripping". Neither [son] nor I perceived any of your descriptors, but more importantly, it is none of your business. If you want to give constructive feedback I welcome it. I like how you interact with my children in general. If you wish to provide advice please ask first, I will continue to do the same with you. If you recalled you asked me over a month ago not to interfere with your parenting and I am respecting your boundary.
To be clear, I am not a victim nor I am incident. There have been times were I deserved to be the recipient of your angry. However I did not deserved the blind rage you unleashed on me Sunday. On Sunday the reality (for me), was that you were holding me responsible for your emotions. That is not OK. I am asking you to hold yourself accountable, or has Minx on Polyamory Weekly would say, "own your shit".
On Sunday I experienced from you what I can only describe as blind rage. I am familiar with being the recipient of anger, but not like that; not even with [ex-wife]. Your anger stemmed from a single sentence, and while we can debate on the exact wording, the meanings are not debatable.
I asked you calmly and politely,"Please, don't engage with [son]". You heard something completely different.
Your response was not OK. I am fine with you being angry with me. I am even OK with you suggesting different ways I can phrase things, but I am not OK with is your extreme reaction, it was uncalled for and completely unappropriated.
To be clear, I am not interested in what reality you chose to see and hear. What I am doing is setting my boundaries so that you understand what is and is not OK.
For example yesterday, you described my interactions with [son] as being "angry", "pushy", "strong armed" and "guilt tripping". Neither [son] nor I perceived any of your descriptors, but more importantly, it is none of your business. If you want to give constructive feedback I welcome it. I like how you interact with my children in general. If you wish to provide advice please ask first, I will continue to do the same with you. If you recalled you asked me over a month ago not to interfere with your parenting and I am respecting your boundary.
To be clear, I am not a victim nor I am incident. There have been times were I deserved to be the recipient of your angry. However I did not deserved the blind rage you unleashed on me Sunday. On Sunday the reality (for me), was that you were holding me responsible for your emotions. That is not OK. I am asking you to hold yourself accountable, or has Minx on Polyamory Weekly would say, "own your shit".
My response:
Golden,
All I can say is that you make me so mad that I can't even articulate my thoughts.
You don't get to decide if my reaction was appropriate or not.
Additionally you cannot declare that, "the meanings are not debatable."
FYI, I wasn't providing advice. I was stating what I thought your interaction with [son] had been.
You need to own your shit too. You were lashing out over various things from Friday on and I believe this falls into that category also. You weren't even in the room to gauge [son's] response to my invitation. Your response was a result of your reaction.
Your pride in delivering your message in a "calm and polite" manner speaks of you controlling your emotions. The words you used conveyed volumes. You used very formal language which conveyed to me that I had crossed a line. WTF? In that moment I felt wronged and hurt. I had spent three days feeling very empathetic towards you and had tried to be extra kind and caring. When I asked [your son] if he wanted to join us I was light and breezy. To have you speak to me in such formal language was like a slap in the face.
Hearing that everything I say is perceived as being angry leaves me feeling like nothing is safe for me to say to your children. This has created an intolerable living situation.
All I can say is that you make me so mad that I can't even articulate my thoughts.
You don't get to decide if my reaction was appropriate or not.
Additionally you cannot declare that, "the meanings are not debatable."
FYI, I wasn't providing advice. I was stating what I thought your interaction with [son] had been.
You need to own your shit too. You were lashing out over various things from Friday on and I believe this falls into that category also. You weren't even in the room to gauge [son's] response to my invitation. Your response was a result of your reaction.
Your pride in delivering your message in a "calm and polite" manner speaks of you controlling your emotions. The words you used conveyed volumes. You used very formal language which conveyed to me that I had crossed a line. WTF? In that moment I felt wronged and hurt. I had spent three days feeling very empathetic towards you and had tried to be extra kind and caring. When I asked [your son] if he wanted to join us I was light and breezy. To have you speak to me in such formal language was like a slap in the face.
Hearing that everything I say is perceived as being angry leaves me feeling like nothing is safe for me to say to your children. This has created an intolerable living situation.
Golden's reply was done by inline in BLUE.
Comments below in BLUE
On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Petunia wrote:
Golden,
All I can say is that you make me so mad that I can't even articulate my thoughts.
You don't get to decide if my reaction was appropriate or not.
GOLDEN: When your actions directly affect me I can, in fact, decide if your actions are appropriate. As Bond once said, "your rights end at the tip of my nose." The way you choose to express your emotions to me on Sunday was uncalled for and completely inappropriate. As I said before, I am fine with you being upset with me or even suggesting how to phrase things in a way that doesn't upset you soo much.
Additionally you cannot declare that, "the meanings are not debatable."
GOLDEN: Again, you are wrong. The 'meanings' I am referring to is your and my opinions of the effect of the sentence, "Please, don't engage with [son]". My opinion is that the sentence was constructed and delivered in a reasonable way, within the context of the situation. Your opinion is different. Our opinions are, in this context, analogous to the meaning of the event in question. Your option is not debatable and neither is mine.
FYI, I wasn't providing advice. I was stating what I thought your interaction with [son] had been.
GOLDEN: You are right and I am wrong, what you did was not advice. Advice is something a person asks for, I did not ask you; what you provided was unwarranted and, as it turns out, wrong.
You need to own your shit too. You were lashing out over various things from Friday on and I believe this falls into that category also.
GOLDEN: I did lash out, and I was angry (at times) during the weekend. While I could have expressed my anger in different ways, what I choose to do is not in the same category as what you did to me on Sunday. My actions were directed towards objects, objects which I did not damage. I am allowed to be angry or any other emotion. What is not OK or 'owning my shit', is if I choose actions which directly affected you.
Your complainant of me is an indirect effect of us living together and falls into the category of "When I perceive you lashing out over various things, I feel uncomfortable." Your uncomfortable feelings are yours to own, because my actions of expressing angry are acceptable, which is my opinion and based on what an average person would do. Or simply put, roughly putting away the dishes is an acceptable way to express angry; I am not hurting anyone or anything.
If on the other hand I would walk up to you and yelled, for example because you didn't put away your dishes, that would notbe OK. Even if there was some issue with you for not putting away the dishes, it is not OK for me to yell at you for such a minor mistake; my extreme reaction would not be in line with the "offense" and this inappropriate.
You weren't even in the room to gauge [son]'s response to my invitation.
GOLDEN: Later that day I took the effort to critically examine my perception of reality by asking [son] what he perceived. [son]'s description of the event, which is important, did not support your claims of me being "angry", "pushy", "strong arming" or "guilt tripping" him. Perhaps [son] is wrong and misread the events and you are right, frankly I don't care what your opinion is, UNLESS you want to provide constructive feedback, which you did not.
Your response was a result of your reaction.
GOLDEN: Which response are you referring to? Are you referring to when you thought I was being "angry, "pushy", "strong arming" and "guilt tripping" to [son]? First of all, you are wrong about [son] and more importantly, what does that matter to you? If you perceived me being angry with my son, what does that have to do with you?
Your pride in delivering your message in a "calm and polite" manner speaks of you controlling your emotions.
GOLDEN: My "pride"? Your description reeks of judgement. At what point did I express "pride" in being "calm and polite" approach with you? I have remained confident and resolute in my perceptions. While you can chose to label me however you want, IMO someone who is prideful, like you claim me to be, would not critically examine their actions, which I have done.
Despite your observations being unwarranted, I still checked with [son] to discover if my sense of reality was askew. Despite being confident, I still approached [son] later that day in a neutral way and asked nonleading questions to assess whathis perception of the event was. While I can't guarantee what he told me was his absolute truth, I did everything short of hooking him up to a lie detector to find out. IMO, a prideful person would not go to such lengths to disprove themself.
In case you are interested, I highly recommend,
Uhlmann, E.L. Cohen, G.L. (2007). “I think it, therefore it’s true”: Effects of self-perceived objectivity on hiring discrimination. Organ Behav Hum Decis Process 104: 207–223 doi:10.1016/j.obhdp.2007.07.001
Re: my emotions during the event.
The emotions I had during the event were not about you. If you chose to make my emotions your business, than the consequences of your actions are yours to own.
The words you used conveyed volumes.You used very formal language which conveyed to me that I had crossed a line.
GOLDEN: This is where I agree with you. I agree my choice of words does convey volumes, this is why I use formal language. I use formal language to indicate that what I am saying does not necessarily follow normal conventions, which is the whole point of using formal rather than informal language.
You used very formal language which conveyed to me that I had crossed a line.
GOLDEN: This I think gets at the core of the issue. My use of formal language is not a precursor to something you did wrong. While you can chose to believe whatever you want to believe, I have told you repeatedly that I was not angry with you, I do not blame you nor hold you at fault for how you interacted with [son] on Sunday. My action of asking you to "Please, do not engage with [son]", was not a judgement statement on you. It was a direct, and I thought clear, plea for you to stop what you were doing. The meaning that you associate with it "Petunia, you crossed a line" is yours to own.
On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Petunia wrote:
Golden,
All I can say is that you make me so mad that I can't even articulate my thoughts.
You don't get to decide if my reaction was appropriate or not.
GOLDEN: When your actions directly affect me I can, in fact, decide if your actions are appropriate. As Bond once said, "your rights end at the tip of my nose." The way you choose to express your emotions to me on Sunday was uncalled for and completely inappropriate. As I said before, I am fine with you being upset with me or even suggesting how to phrase things in a way that doesn't upset you soo much.
Additionally you cannot declare that, "the meanings are not debatable."
GOLDEN: Again, you are wrong. The 'meanings' I am referring to is your and my opinions of the effect of the sentence, "Please, don't engage with [son]". My opinion is that the sentence was constructed and delivered in a reasonable way, within the context of the situation. Your opinion is different. Our opinions are, in this context, analogous to the meaning of the event in question. Your option is not debatable and neither is mine.
FYI, I wasn't providing advice. I was stating what I thought your interaction with [son] had been.
GOLDEN: You are right and I am wrong, what you did was not advice. Advice is something a person asks for, I did not ask you; what you provided was unwarranted and, as it turns out, wrong.
You need to own your shit too. You were lashing out over various things from Friday on and I believe this falls into that category also.
GOLDEN: I did lash out, and I was angry (at times) during the weekend. While I could have expressed my anger in different ways, what I choose to do is not in the same category as what you did to me on Sunday. My actions were directed towards objects, objects which I did not damage. I am allowed to be angry or any other emotion. What is not OK or 'owning my shit', is if I choose actions which directly affected you.
Your complainant of me is an indirect effect of us living together and falls into the category of "When I perceive you lashing out over various things, I feel uncomfortable." Your uncomfortable feelings are yours to own, because my actions of expressing angry are acceptable, which is my opinion and based on what an average person would do. Or simply put, roughly putting away the dishes is an acceptable way to express angry; I am not hurting anyone or anything.
If on the other hand I would walk up to you and yelled, for example because you didn't put away your dishes, that would notbe OK. Even if there was some issue with you for not putting away the dishes, it is not OK for me to yell at you for such a minor mistake; my extreme reaction would not be in line with the "offense" and this inappropriate.
You weren't even in the room to gauge [son]'s response to my invitation.
GOLDEN: Later that day I took the effort to critically examine my perception of reality by asking [son] what he perceived. [son]'s description of the event, which is important, did not support your claims of me being "angry", "pushy", "strong arming" or "guilt tripping" him. Perhaps [son] is wrong and misread the events and you are right, frankly I don't care what your opinion is, UNLESS you want to provide constructive feedback, which you did not.
Your response was a result of your reaction.
GOLDEN: Which response are you referring to? Are you referring to when you thought I was being "angry, "pushy", "strong arming" and "guilt tripping" to [son]? First of all, you are wrong about [son] and more importantly, what does that matter to you? If you perceived me being angry with my son, what does that have to do with you?
Your pride in delivering your message in a "calm and polite" manner speaks of you controlling your emotions.
GOLDEN: My "pride"? Your description reeks of judgement. At what point did I express "pride" in being "calm and polite" approach with you? I have remained confident and resolute in my perceptions. While you can chose to label me however you want, IMO someone who is prideful, like you claim me to be, would not critically examine their actions, which I have done.
Despite your observations being unwarranted, I still checked with [son] to discover if my sense of reality was askew. Despite being confident, I still approached [son] later that day in a neutral way and asked nonleading questions to assess whathis perception of the event was. While I can't guarantee what he told me was his absolute truth, I did everything short of hooking him up to a lie detector to find out. IMO, a prideful person would not go to such lengths to disprove themself.
In case you are interested, I highly recommend,
Uhlmann, E.L. Cohen, G.L. (2007). “I think it, therefore it’s true”: Effects of self-perceived objectivity on hiring discrimination. Organ Behav Hum Decis Process 104: 207–223 doi:10.1016/j.obhdp.2007.07.001
Re: my emotions during the event.
The emotions I had during the event were not about you. If you chose to make my emotions your business, than the consequences of your actions are yours to own.
The words you used conveyed volumes.You used very formal language which conveyed to me that I had crossed a line.
GOLDEN: This is where I agree with you. I agree my choice of words does convey volumes, this is why I use formal language. I use formal language to indicate that what I am saying does not necessarily follow normal conventions, which is the whole point of using formal rather than informal language.
You used very formal language which conveyed to me that I had crossed a line.
GOLDEN: This I think gets at the core of the issue. My use of formal language is not a precursor to something you did wrong. While you can chose to believe whatever you want to believe, I have told you repeatedly that I was not angry with you, I do not blame you nor hold you at fault for how you interacted with [son] on Sunday. My action of asking you to "Please, do not engage with [son]", was not a judgement statement on you. It was a direct, and I thought clear, plea for you to stop what you were doing. The meaning that you associate with it "Petunia, you crossed a line" is yours to own.
continued...
WTF? In that moment I felt wronged and hurt.
GOLDEN: I explained that day and evening and even now that, I did not intent to harm to you; I was not angry with you in anyway. I am angry with you now, because what you did afterwards, in your blind rage, was not OK. I have owned my part of the event, to the best of my knowledge, and do not hold myself responsible for your emotional reaction. I am sorry the experience was what it was for you.
I had spent three days feeling very empathetic towards you and had tried to be extra kind and caring.
GOLDEN: Are you telling me that you deserved to be treated better, because you were nice to me? What is the meaning you associate with this?
When I asked [son] if he wanted to join us I was light and breezy.
GOLDEN: Again, there was nothing wrong with how you interacted with [son].
To have you speak to me in such formal language was like a slap in the face.
GOLDEN: I have already explained my meaning of the use of formal language. The fact that your meaning is different is your responsible; any actions you take using your meaning is on you.
Hearing that everything I say is perceived as being angry leaves me feeling like nothing is safe for me to say to your children.
GOLDEN: I did not say "Everything Petunia says comes off angry"; what you choose to believe is up to you. What I have told you is that when you to tell kids what to do, you often come off angry. I have noticed this. [son] has felt it. Another adult even told me they thought you hated children.
re: [son]'s POV
[son] has said, "Petunia thinks she is the boss" or "Petunia thinks she can boss everyone around". My understanding of [son]'s option of you is that whenever you order the kids around, whether you are talking to [son] or not, [son] has a strong reaction to you.
I suspect that [son] has had these feelings for a long time, but hide them, even from me, until recently.
re: Beanie
As far as I know Beanie loves you as much as ever.
This has created an intolerable living situation.
GOLDEN: To the best of my knowledge, I have addressed every issue or problem you have shared with me. If I am mistaken,please tell me. I don't want you, or anyone, to feel miserable.
If you do have an issue that you want to share I ask the following.
As best as you can, identity what change you want from me and provide enough context so that I can understand, if that is possible; I need direct and not passive language. If you can't identity what change you want me from, but still want to talk about it, then I ask you use formal language or your equivalent signifier that what we will be discussing needs special attention. Please have patience with me as I learn what your equivalent to formal language is to you.
- Golden
[/INDENT]
Exhausting, huh?
To be continued...
WTF? In that moment I felt wronged and hurt.
GOLDEN: I explained that day and evening and even now that, I did not intent to harm to you; I was not angry with you in anyway. I am angry with you now, because what you did afterwards, in your blind rage, was not OK. I have owned my part of the event, to the best of my knowledge, and do not hold myself responsible for your emotional reaction. I am sorry the experience was what it was for you.
I had spent three days feeling very empathetic towards you and had tried to be extra kind and caring.
GOLDEN: Are you telling me that you deserved to be treated better, because you were nice to me? What is the meaning you associate with this?
When I asked [son] if he wanted to join us I was light and breezy.
GOLDEN: Again, there was nothing wrong with how you interacted with [son].
To have you speak to me in such formal language was like a slap in the face.
GOLDEN: I have already explained my meaning of the use of formal language. The fact that your meaning is different is your responsible; any actions you take using your meaning is on you.
Hearing that everything I say is perceived as being angry leaves me feeling like nothing is safe for me to say to your children.
GOLDEN: I did not say "Everything Petunia says comes off angry"; what you choose to believe is up to you. What I have told you is that when you to tell kids what to do, you often come off angry. I have noticed this. [son] has felt it. Another adult even told me they thought you hated children.
re: [son]'s POV
[son] has said, "Petunia thinks she is the boss" or "Petunia thinks she can boss everyone around". My understanding of [son]'s option of you is that whenever you order the kids around, whether you are talking to [son] or not, [son] has a strong reaction to you.
I suspect that [son] has had these feelings for a long time, but hide them, even from me, until recently.
re: Beanie
As far as I know Beanie loves you as much as ever.
This has created an intolerable living situation.
GOLDEN: To the best of my knowledge, I have addressed every issue or problem you have shared with me. If I am mistaken,please tell me. I don't want you, or anyone, to feel miserable.
If you do have an issue that you want to share I ask the following.
As best as you can, identity what change you want from me and provide enough context so that I can understand, if that is possible; I need direct and not passive language. If you can't identity what change you want me from, but still want to talk about it, then I ask you use formal language or your equivalent signifier that what we will be discussing needs special attention. Please have patience with me as I learn what your equivalent to formal language is to you.
- Golden
[/INDENT]
Exhausting, huh?
To be continued...
Conflict One Continued...
I also replied inline and I have set the color to pink.
**********************
Comments below in BLUE
On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Petunia wrote:
Golden,
All I can say is that you make me so mad that I can't even articulate my thoughts.
You don't get to decide if my reaction was appropriate or not.
GOLDEN: When your actions directly affect me I can, in fact, decide if your actions are appropriate. As Bond once said, "your rights end at the tip of my nose." The way you choose to express your emotions to me on Sunday was uncalled for and completely inappropriate. As I said before, I am fine with you being upset with me or even suggesting how to phrase things in a way that doesn't upset you soo much.
No, you cannot control my emotional response. You do not get to determine what's emotionally appropriate or inappropriate.You get to control you.
Additionally you cannot declare that, "the meanings are not debatable."
GOLDEN: Again, you are wrong. The 'meanings' I am referring to is your and my opinions of the effect of the sentence, "Please, don't engage with [son]". My opinion is that the sentence was constructed and delivered in a reasonable way, within the context of the situation. Your opinion is different. Our opinions are, in this context, analogous to the meaning of the event in question. Your option is not debatable and neither is mine.
"Our opinions are, in this context, analogous to the meaning of the event in question."
FYI, I wasn't providing advice. I was stating what I thought your interaction with [son] had been.
GOLDEN: You are right and I am wrong, what you did was not advice. Advice is something a person asks for, I did not ask you; what you provided was unwarranted and, as it turns out, wrong.
You need to own your shit too. You were lashing out over various things from Friday on and I believe this falls into that category also.
GOLDEN: I did lash out, and I was angry (at times) during the weekend. While I could have expressed my anger in different ways, what I choose to do is not in the same category as what you did to me on Sunday. My actions were directed towards objects, objects which I did not damage. I am allowed to be angry or any other emotion. What is not OK or 'owning my shit', is if I choose actions which directly affected you.
And I'm saying that, in my opinion, your mood affected your reaction to my invitation to [son].
Your complainant of me is an indirect effect of us living together and falls into the category of "When I perceive you lashing out over various things, I feel uncomfortable." Does not apply. I wasn't uncomfortable with how you were processing things. I was feeling empathetic. Your uncomfortable feelings are yours to own, because my actions of expressing angry are acceptable, which is my opinion and based on what an average person would do. Or simply put, roughly putting away the dishes is an acceptable way to express angry; I am not hurting anyone or anything.
If on the other hand I would walk up to you and yelled, for example because you didn't put away your dishes, that would not be OK. Even if there was some issue with you for not putting away the dishes, it is not OK for me to yell at you for such a minor mistake; my extreme reaction would not be in line with the "offense" and this inappropriate.
^ This is what you did. In essence you yelled at me for my "mistake." We've all been in a situation where we wince when we hear someone say something, because we have knowledge about the receiver that the person speaking does not. It's not that what the person speaking necessarily did something wrong, it's just that they weren't privy to the other information.Using formal language elevated your message. It didn't matter that you delivered it in a calm and polite manner, because the message remained the same.
You weren't even in the room to gauge [son]'s response to my invitation.
GOLDEN: Later that day I took the effort to critically examine my perception of reality by asking [son] what he perceived. [son]'s description of the event, which is important, did not support your claims of me being "angry", "pushy", "strong arming" or "guilt tripping" him. Perhaps [son] is wrong and misread the events and you are right, frankly I don't care what your opinion is, UNLESS you want to provide constructive feedback, which you did not.
I don't want the two of us to get into deeper discussion on this, but please think about this: [son] was crying about going on the walk. Crying. So what convinced him to go? When I was angry with you I used, "pushing", "strong arming" and "guilt tripping" as tactics you may have employed. Yes, those were just guesses, but he did decide to go and it appeared that he was doing so against his will. So, ask yourself, what convinced him to go?
You weren't even in the room to gauge [son]'s response to my invitation. Your response was a result of your reaction.
GOLDEN: Which response are you referring to?
Let's break this down:
1.) You heard me invite [son] along on the walk,
2.) You had an internal emotional reaction (Probably something similar to this, "Arg. She's not helping."
3.) You acted on it by talking to me about it.
At no point did you interact with, or observe, [son], so your response (to talk to me) was because of your reaction ("this is not good") to hearing me ask him if he wanted to go with us. When you told me the backstory to why you spoke to me, you said that my invitation caused [son] to be more steeled against going. You have no way of knowing that. Your perception was that it had that effect, but that was only speculation and projection.
Are you referring to when you thought I was being "angry, "pushy", "strong arming" and "guilt tripping" to [son]? First of all, you are wrong about [son] and more importantly, what does that matter to you? If you perceived me being angry with my son, what does that have to do with you? <-- Only mentioned because you told me that the reason why it was untimely that I had invited him along was because you had just spoken to him about the walk and he was unhappy about it and that my invitation set him more against it. Additionally, when we did go on the walk he was crying. These things contributed to me drawing a conclusion that you were pushing him to go and had strong armed his acquiescence. I said these things, because I was expressing that it wasn't my fault that all of this was in play already when I extended an invitation.
Your pride in delivering your message in a "calm and polite" manner speaks of you controlling your emotions.
GOLDEN: My "pride"? Your description reeks of judgement. At what point did I express "pride" in being "calm and polite" approach with you? I have remained confident and resolute in my perceptions. While you can chose to label me however you want, IMO someone who is prideful, like you claim me to be, would not critically examine their actions, which I have done.
BTW, this was not my personal observation, but something pointed out to me by a third party.
Despite your observations being unwarranted, I still checked with [son] to discover if my sense of reality was askew. Despite being confident, I still approached [son] later that day in a neutral way and asked nonleading questions to assess what his perception of the event was. While I can't guarantee what he told me was his absolute truth, I did everything short of hooking him up to a lie detector to find out. IMO, a prideful person would not go to such lengths to disprove themself.
^[son]'s perception has nothing to do with how you feel about how you handled the exchange with me. You're conflating my saying you were proud of how calm and polite you expressed yourself and my saying that you strong-armed him.
In case you are interested, I highly recommend,
Uhlmann, E.L. Cohen, G.L. (2007). “I think it, therefore it’s true”: Effects of self-perceived objectivity on hiring discrimination. Organ Behav Hum Decis Process 104: 207–223 doi:10.1016/j.obhdp.2007.07.001
Re: my emotions during the event.
The emotions I had during the event were not about you. If you chose to make my emotions your business, than the consequences of your actions are yours to own.
This is about an incident between you and me. It's about your reaction to something I did and my reaction to that.
to be continued...
I also replied inline and I have set the color to pink.
**********************
Comments below in BLUE
On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Petunia wrote:
Golden,
All I can say is that you make me so mad that I can't even articulate my thoughts.
You don't get to decide if my reaction was appropriate or not.
GOLDEN: When your actions directly affect me I can, in fact, decide if your actions are appropriate. As Bond once said, "your rights end at the tip of my nose." The way you choose to express your emotions to me on Sunday was uncalled for and completely inappropriate. As I said before, I am fine with you being upset with me or even suggesting how to phrase things in a way that doesn't upset you soo much.
No, you cannot control my emotional response. You do not get to determine what's emotionally appropriate or inappropriate.You get to control you.
Additionally you cannot declare that, "the meanings are not debatable."
GOLDEN: Again, you are wrong. The 'meanings' I am referring to is your and my opinions of the effect of the sentence, "Please, don't engage with [son]". My opinion is that the sentence was constructed and delivered in a reasonable way, within the context of the situation. Your opinion is different. Our opinions are, in this context, analogous to the meaning of the event in question. Your option is not debatable and neither is mine.
"Our opinions are, in this context, analogous to the meaning of the event in question."
a·nal·o·gous
əˈnaləɡəs/
adjective
comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared.
"they saw the relationship between a ruler and his subjects as analogous to that of father and children"
1.
synonyms: comparable, parallel, similar, like, akin, corresponding, related, kindred,equivalent
"their lab results were analogous"
I'm confused by what you mean here. Do you mean the opposite? That our opinions differ (they are NOT analogous) on the meaning of the sentence, thus that's not what we are debating? Because the entire incident is about interpretation of that exchange.əˈnaləɡəs/
adjective
comparable in certain respects, typically in a way that makes clearer the nature of the things compared.
"they saw the relationship between a ruler and his subjects as analogous to that of father and children"
1.
synonyms: comparable, parallel, similar, like, akin, corresponding, related, kindred,equivalent
"their lab results were analogous"
FYI, I wasn't providing advice. I was stating what I thought your interaction with [son] had been.
GOLDEN: You are right and I am wrong, what you did was not advice. Advice is something a person asks for, I did not ask you; what you provided was unwarranted and, as it turns out, wrong.
You need to own your shit too. You were lashing out over various things from Friday on and I believe this falls into that category also.
GOLDEN: I did lash out, and I was angry (at times) during the weekend. While I could have expressed my anger in different ways, what I choose to do is not in the same category as what you did to me on Sunday. My actions were directed towards objects, objects which I did not damage. I am allowed to be angry or any other emotion. What is not OK or 'owning my shit', is if I choose actions which directly affected you.
And I'm saying that, in my opinion, your mood affected your reaction to my invitation to [son].
Your complainant of me is an indirect effect of us living together and falls into the category of "When I perceive you lashing out over various things, I feel uncomfortable." Does not apply. I wasn't uncomfortable with how you were processing things. I was feeling empathetic. Your uncomfortable feelings are yours to own, because my actions of expressing angry are acceptable, which is my opinion and based on what an average person would do. Or simply put, roughly putting away the dishes is an acceptable way to express angry; I am not hurting anyone or anything.
If on the other hand I would walk up to you and yelled, for example because you didn't put away your dishes, that would not be OK. Even if there was some issue with you for not putting away the dishes, it is not OK for me to yell at you for such a minor mistake; my extreme reaction would not be in line with the "offense" and this inappropriate.
^ This is what you did. In essence you yelled at me for my "mistake." We've all been in a situation where we wince when we hear someone say something, because we have knowledge about the receiver that the person speaking does not. It's not that what the person speaking necessarily did something wrong, it's just that they weren't privy to the other information.Using formal language elevated your message. It didn't matter that you delivered it in a calm and polite manner, because the message remained the same.
You weren't even in the room to gauge [son]'s response to my invitation.
GOLDEN: Later that day I took the effort to critically examine my perception of reality by asking [son] what he perceived. [son]'s description of the event, which is important, did not support your claims of me being "angry", "pushy", "strong arming" or "guilt tripping" him. Perhaps [son] is wrong and misread the events and you are right, frankly I don't care what your opinion is, UNLESS you want to provide constructive feedback, which you did not.
I don't want the two of us to get into deeper discussion on this, but please think about this: [son] was crying about going on the walk. Crying. So what convinced him to go? When I was angry with you I used, "pushing", "strong arming" and "guilt tripping" as tactics you may have employed. Yes, those were just guesses, but he did decide to go and it appeared that he was doing so against his will. So, ask yourself, what convinced him to go?
You weren't even in the room to gauge [son]'s response to my invitation. Your response was a result of your reaction.
GOLDEN: Which response are you referring to?
Let's break this down:
1.) You heard me invite [son] along on the walk,
2.) You had an internal emotional reaction (Probably something similar to this, "Arg. She's not helping."
3.) You acted on it by talking to me about it.
At no point did you interact with, or observe, [son], so your response (to talk to me) was because of your reaction ("this is not good") to hearing me ask him if he wanted to go with us. When you told me the backstory to why you spoke to me, you said that my invitation caused [son] to be more steeled against going. You have no way of knowing that. Your perception was that it had that effect, but that was only speculation and projection.
Are you referring to when you thought I was being "angry, "pushy", "strong arming" and "guilt tripping" to [son]? First of all, you are wrong about [son] and more importantly, what does that matter to you? If you perceived me being angry with my son, what does that have to do with you? <-- Only mentioned because you told me that the reason why it was untimely that I had invited him along was because you had just spoken to him about the walk and he was unhappy about it and that my invitation set him more against it. Additionally, when we did go on the walk he was crying. These things contributed to me drawing a conclusion that you were pushing him to go and had strong armed his acquiescence. I said these things, because I was expressing that it wasn't my fault that all of this was in play already when I extended an invitation.
Your pride in delivering your message in a "calm and polite" manner speaks of you controlling your emotions.
GOLDEN: My "pride"? Your description reeks of judgement. At what point did I express "pride" in being "calm and polite" approach with you? I have remained confident and resolute in my perceptions. While you can chose to label me however you want, IMO someone who is prideful, like you claim me to be, would not critically examine their actions, which I have done.
BTW, this was not my personal observation, but something pointed out to me by a third party.
Despite your observations being unwarranted, I still checked with [son] to discover if my sense of reality was askew. Despite being confident, I still approached [son] later that day in a neutral way and asked nonleading questions to assess what his perception of the event was. While I can't guarantee what he told me was his absolute truth, I did everything short of hooking him up to a lie detector to find out. IMO, a prideful person would not go to such lengths to disprove themself.
^[son]'s perception has nothing to do with how you feel about how you handled the exchange with me. You're conflating my saying you were proud of how calm and polite you expressed yourself and my saying that you strong-armed him.
In case you are interested, I highly recommend,
Uhlmann, E.L. Cohen, G.L. (2007). “I think it, therefore it’s true”: Effects of self-perceived objectivity on hiring discrimination. Organ Behav Hum Decis Process 104: 207–223 doi:10.1016/j.obhdp.2007.07.001
Re: my emotions during the event.
The emotions I had during the event were not about you. If you chose to make my emotions your business, than the consequences of your actions are yours to own.
This is about an incident between you and me. It's about your reaction to something I did and my reaction to that.
to be continued...
my response continued...
The words you used conveyed volumes.You used very formal language which conveyed to me that I had crossed a line.
GOLDEN: This is where I agree with you. I agree my choice of words does convey volumes, this is why I use formal language. I use formal language to indicate that what I am saying doesnot necessarily follow normal conventions, which is the whole point of using formal rather than informal language.
I agree that is may be the crux of the situation. I think you may not understand that adopting a formal tone in this situation elevated the strength of your message because of our familiarity with one another. We are not strangers, or coworkers. We are housemates and former lovers. We have a level of familiarity with one another.
This is taken from http://faculty.washington.edu/ezent/el.htm. It is about writing styles, but it addresses the difference between formal and informal language and how it sets the tone.
You said, "Please do not engage in further dialog with my son about going on the walk."
If you had said, "Hey, I already spoke to him about the walk and he's being resistant, so please don't pressure him about it." I'd have been 100% on board without feeling like I was being reprimanded or like I had crossed a line.
You used very formal language which conveyed to me that I had crossed a line.
GOLDEN: This I think gets at the core of the issue. My use of formal language is not a precursor to something you did wrong. While you can chose to believe whatever you want to believe, I have told you repeatedly that I was not angry with you, I do not blame you nor hold you at fault for how you interacted with [son] on Sunday. My action of asking you to "Please, do not engage with [son]", was not a judgement statement on you. It was a direct, and I thought clear, plea for you to stop what you were doing. The meaning that you associate with it "Petunia, you crossed a line" is yours to own.
WTF? In that moment I felt wronged and hurt.
GOLDEN: I explained that day and evening and even now that, I did not intent to harm to you; I was not angry with you in anyway. I am angry with you now, because what you did afterwards, in your blind rage, was not OK. I have owned my part of the event, to the best of my knowledge, and do not hold myself responsible for your emotional reaction. I am sorry the experience was what it was for you.
I had spent three days feeling very empathetic towards you and had tried to be extra kind and caring.
GOLDEN: Are you telling me that you deserved to be treated better, because you were nice to me? What is the meaning you associate with this?
I shared that, because I was trying to convey how out of left field this felt to me and why it was such a slap in the face. If you and I had been at odds with one another maybe I'd have been less open and vulnerable so this wouldn't have hurt as much.
When I asked [son] if he wanted to join us I was light and breezy.
GOLDEN: Again, there was nothing wrong with how you interacted with [son].
To have you speak to me in such formal language was like a slap in the face.
GOLDEN: I have already explained my meaning of the use of formal language. The fact that your meaning is different is your responsible; any actions you take using your meaning is on you.
I disagree. You may chose to not follow the cultural norms for language use, but you cannot expect others to intuitively know what the use of formal language means to you when it's not being used conventionally. I recently had a discussion with someone about formal language. They said, "I use formal language when I want to convey that I am dead serious and not being friendly. If I go there, they need to know that I mean business."
Hearing that everything I say is perceived as being angry leaves me feeling like nothing is safe for me to say to your children.
GOLDEN: I did not say "Everything Petunia says comes off angry"; what you choose to believe is up to you.
You told me that even when I'm being upbeat or enthusiastic that it's perceived as angry. So yes, you did tell me that.
What I have told you is that when you to tell kids what to do, you often come off angry. I have noticed this. [son] has felt it. Another adult even told me they thought you hated children.
This saddens me and I will do my very best to correct it.
re: [son]'s POV
[son] has said, "Petunia thinks she is the boss" or "Petunia thinks she can boss everyone around". My understanding of [son]'s option of you is that whenever you order the kids around, whether you are talking to [son] or not, [son] has a strong reaction to you.
I will work on this, actually, I have been working on this for several weeks. It drives me crazy when Bond doesn't give clear cut answers or direction, but that's his choice and I need to accept it.
***Just as formality of language caused this situation, the formality and tone of how I address the kids is something I need to work on. I believe that it's the problem with how things come across. It's not comfortable hearing these things, but it is definitely something I own and will put a lot of effort into correcting.***
I suspect that [son] has had these feelings for a long time, but hide them, even from me, until recently.
re: Beanie
As far as I know Beanie loves you as much as ever. <3
This has created an intolerable living situation.
GOLDEN: To the best of my knowledge, I have addressed every issue or problem you have shared with me. If I am mistaken, please tell me. I don't want you, or anyone, to feel miserable.
Unfortunately, addressing issues doesn't always resolve them. I still feel that nothing I may say to your children is safe. For me it is an incredibly intolerable living situation. I'm so very tired of wrangling with you over things.
If you do have an issue that you want to share I ask the following.
As best as you can, identity what change you want from me and provide enough context so that I can understand, if that is possible; I need direct and not passive language. If you can't identity what change you want me from, but still want to talk about it, then I ask you use formal language or your equivalent signifier that what we will be discussing needs special attention. Please have patience with me as I learn what your equivalent to formal language is to you.
Right now I don't care to interact with you. I don't have any ideas, constructive or otherwise, that I'd like to address.
- Golden
The words you used conveyed volumes.You used very formal language which conveyed to me that I had crossed a line.
GOLDEN: This is where I agree with you. I agree my choice of words does convey volumes, this is why I use formal language. I use formal language to indicate that what I am saying doesnot necessarily follow normal conventions, which is the whole point of using formal rather than informal language.
I agree that is may be the crux of the situation. I think you may not understand that adopting a formal tone in this situation elevated the strength of your message because of our familiarity with one another. We are not strangers, or coworkers. We are housemates and former lovers. We have a level of familiarity with one another.
This is taken from http://faculty.washington.edu/ezent/el.htm. It is about writing styles, but it addresses the difference between formal and informal language and how it sets the tone.
Formality of Language
The formality of the language one uses should match the formality of the situation and the relationship between the writer and reader. Consider the following examples.
Very Formal: Exceedingly large segments of the population are expressing their discontent with medical practitioners who appear to more engrossed in amassing financial assets than in providing efficacious care to people with health disorders.
Formal: A large number of consumers are complaining about medical doctors who are apparently more interested in making money than in provide effective health care.
Informal: A lot of people are unhappy with their doctors who only seem to care about how much money they make, and not about giving their patients good care.
Notice that any of the three examples could be effective, depending upon the reader, the writer's relationship with the reader, and the situation. Under what conditions might you want to use these different levels of formality?
Notice the difference in formality between the two words shown in pairs below. Either word might be equally appropriate, depending upon the reader and situation.
utilize/use
transpire/happen
facilitate/help
expedite/quicken
impediment/obstacle
comprehend/understand
erroneous/mistaken
exacerbate/worsen
The formality of the language one uses should match the formality of the situation and the relationship between the writer and reader. Consider the following examples.
Very Formal: Exceedingly large segments of the population are expressing their discontent with medical practitioners who appear to more engrossed in amassing financial assets than in providing efficacious care to people with health disorders.
Formal: A large number of consumers are complaining about medical doctors who are apparently more interested in making money than in provide effective health care.
Informal: A lot of people are unhappy with their doctors who only seem to care about how much money they make, and not about giving their patients good care.
Notice that any of the three examples could be effective, depending upon the reader, the writer's relationship with the reader, and the situation. Under what conditions might you want to use these different levels of formality?
Notice the difference in formality between the two words shown in pairs below. Either word might be equally appropriate, depending upon the reader and situation.
utilize/use
transpire/happen
facilitate/help
expedite/quicken
impediment/obstacle
comprehend/understand
erroneous/mistaken
exacerbate/worsen
You said, "Please do not engage in further dialog with my son about going on the walk."
If you had said, "Hey, I already spoke to him about the walk and he's being resistant, so please don't pressure him about it." I'd have been 100% on board without feeling like I was being reprimanded or like I had crossed a line.
You used very formal language which conveyed to me that I had crossed a line.
GOLDEN: This I think gets at the core of the issue. My use of formal language is not a precursor to something you did wrong. While you can chose to believe whatever you want to believe, I have told you repeatedly that I was not angry with you, I do not blame you nor hold you at fault for how you interacted with [son] on Sunday. My action of asking you to "Please, do not engage with [son]", was not a judgement statement on you. It was a direct, and I thought clear, plea for you to stop what you were doing. The meaning that you associate with it "Petunia, you crossed a line" is yours to own.
WTF? In that moment I felt wronged and hurt.
GOLDEN: I explained that day and evening and even now that, I did not intent to harm to you; I was not angry with you in anyway. I am angry with you now, because what you did afterwards, in your blind rage, was not OK. I have owned my part of the event, to the best of my knowledge, and do not hold myself responsible for your emotional reaction. I am sorry the experience was what it was for you.
I had spent three days feeling very empathetic towards you and had tried to be extra kind and caring.
GOLDEN: Are you telling me that you deserved to be treated better, because you were nice to me? What is the meaning you associate with this?
I shared that, because I was trying to convey how out of left field this felt to me and why it was such a slap in the face. If you and I had been at odds with one another maybe I'd have been less open and vulnerable so this wouldn't have hurt as much.
When I asked [son] if he wanted to join us I was light and breezy.
GOLDEN: Again, there was nothing wrong with how you interacted with [son].
To have you speak to me in such formal language was like a slap in the face.
GOLDEN: I have already explained my meaning of the use of formal language. The fact that your meaning is different is your responsible; any actions you take using your meaning is on you.
I disagree. You may chose to not follow the cultural norms for language use, but you cannot expect others to intuitively know what the use of formal language means to you when it's not being used conventionally. I recently had a discussion with someone about formal language. They said, "I use formal language when I want to convey that I am dead serious and not being friendly. If I go there, they need to know that I mean business."
Hearing that everything I say is perceived as being angry leaves me feeling like nothing is safe for me to say to your children.
GOLDEN: I did not say "Everything Petunia says comes off angry"; what you choose to believe is up to you.
You told me that even when I'm being upbeat or enthusiastic that it's perceived as angry. So yes, you did tell me that.
What I have told you is that when you to tell kids what to do, you often come off angry. I have noticed this. [son] has felt it. Another adult even told me they thought you hated children.
This saddens me and I will do my very best to correct it.
re: [son]'s POV
[son] has said, "Petunia thinks she is the boss" or "Petunia thinks she can boss everyone around". My understanding of [son]'s option of you is that whenever you order the kids around, whether you are talking to [son] or not, [son] has a strong reaction to you.
I will work on this, actually, I have been working on this for several weeks. It drives me crazy when Bond doesn't give clear cut answers or direction, but that's his choice and I need to accept it.
***Just as formality of language caused this situation, the formality and tone of how I address the kids is something I need to work on. I believe that it's the problem with how things come across. It's not comfortable hearing these things, but it is definitely something I own and will put a lot of effort into correcting.***
I suspect that [son] has had these feelings for a long time, but hide them, even from me, until recently.
re: Beanie
As far as I know Beanie loves you as much as ever. <3
This has created an intolerable living situation.
GOLDEN: To the best of my knowledge, I have addressed every issue or problem you have shared with me. If I am mistaken, please tell me. I don't want you, or anyone, to feel miserable.
Unfortunately, addressing issues doesn't always resolve them. I still feel that nothing I may say to your children is safe. For me it is an incredibly intolerable living situation. I'm so very tired of wrangling with you over things.
If you do have an issue that you want to share I ask the following.
As best as you can, identity what change you want from me and provide enough context so that I can understand, if that is possible; I need direct and not passive language. If you can't identity what change you want me from, but still want to talk about it, then I ask you use formal language or your equivalent signifier that what we will be discussing needs special attention. Please have patience with me as I learn what your equivalent to formal language is to you.
Right now I don't care to interact with you. I don't have any ideas, constructive or otherwise, that I'd like to address.
- Golden
So, that's pretty much how we left it. On Friday he and Bond had lunch together and afterwards I got two texts from him telling me that he'd provide as much space as he could between us, that he wasn't angry. That he was doing it because I wanted it and he would do his best to do it, asking me to be patient with him, and then the second one saying that he appreciated all the effort I put into his birthday.
I'll have to continue with Conflict Two later, because I don't have time to get into that.
I'll have to continue with Conflict Two later, because I don't have time to get into that.
Friday night Golden told us that for the first time in his life he had been suicidal that week. He also shared that the big upset was that Green Titania had ended their relationship the week before. I asked him if he wanted a hug and he did. He shook as I held him, and as is common for Golden, his muscles vibrated/twitched. (It's so odd that his body does this.)
Both Bond and I were extra kind to him all weekend. On Saturday we took Beanie with us and Bond's two youngest boys to a park on a peninsula park and spent the entire afternoon there.
I spent all of Sunday cooking soups for the freezer, because Golden asked me if I'd help him with that. In the end he didn't do any cooking and I made the soups I had planned in addition to the one recipe he found. All total I made four different soups. Before I finished up Golden said that he'd appreciate if either Bond or I would take a walk with him, because he needed to do some processing and could use an ear. I suggested to Bond that he go with him, because I was still cooking, and because I thought that Bond would be the better of the two of us to offer advice and feedback.
By that evening I was exhausted. I talked Bond into ordering pizza, because I just couldn't cook another meal. I had to go to the store to buy heavy cream and freezer containers. While I was gone Bond ordered the pizza and Golden picked it up. As soon as I walked into the kitchen I realized that I had forgotten the damn containers. I was so tired that I nearly cried, because I just didn't have the energy to go back again. TIRED. Bond helped me find containers that while not optimal they did serve the need.
After dinner when Bond and Z were taking a walk Golden was in the kitchen loading the dishwasher and as I passed through he brought up the fact that I had blocked him on Facebook. He told me that there were other options other than blocking him that I could have taken so that he couldn't see my posts. I nodded and shrugged and left the room. A little while later he came into my bedroom and basically told me that I should have restricted him instead. And then he went on ad nauseum. I felt myself getting pissed. I told him that yes there were other options, but I chose to block him.
When I told Bond he was like, "When we went for a walk he was saying that he needs to work on respecting boundaries and learning not to push and this is exactly what he's doing here - crossing boundaries and pushing."
When I woke up the next morning I had an uncomfortable feeling towards Golden, so I decided to let him know that what he did wasn't okay.
Ironically it's become a debate.
The text fight:
Golden, I am sending you this message because I think it may be useful for you to have a concrete example of when you've failed to respect boundaries and continue to push. Last night when you decided to address my blocking you on Facebook I don't think it was something that needed to be addressed; you were aware I had blocked you, you understood the circumstances, and you knew what the climate was between us at the time. Bringing it up once was within bounds and although I wasn't comfortable, I was somewhat okay with you doing so. Continuing the subject in my bedroom and going as far as telling me the way I should have handled it so that you'd have been more comfortable was not okay. That was going too far. I handled it the way I wanted to and it is my right to do so. You may not like it, but you have to accept it. You don't get to weigh in on the matter.
Golden:
I am sorry I made you uncomfortable.
I am not sure what personal boundary you are referring to. To cross a boundary I need to know it exists.
Please clearly state your boundary.
Re: my reason for broaching the subject.
Petunia, we agreed to be friends. I recalled you said you wanted to be good friends. To the best of my knowledge, I am doing my part to be friends.
A friend does not block their friend on Facebook.
Petunia:
I have asked you to give me space. You have agreed to this. Breaking our Facebook connection gave me an online space. I relaxed my position a lot this weekend because it seemed we were finding a way to share space and because you are going through a hard time and I felt you really don't need more stress.
Petunia:
Golden, you're being obtuse. You know full well that circumstances changed between asking to be friends and now.
Golden:
In a normal situation, I would ignore being blocked, but we live together. Living together is not a normal situation.
Seeing you is a constant reminder that what you say and do are not aligned. You say and act like we are friends face to face, but online you said extremely nasty things then blocked me and still are. I have no evidence to subject your behavior in private is any different then your online behavior.
In regards to our to talks last night, they have two different, but related themes.
The first time I approached you last night, I came to you with an open mind. I did not make assumptions about why you blocked me.
I stated that there are many different ways to limit contact between us. My intention was to start a conversation.
So the first time we talked, it was about FB.
The second time we talked was about friendship and making sure you understand what I expect from my friends, which is not to go online say extremely nasty things about each other. That is not friendship to me, especially since we live together.
I expect friends to communicate with me about my behaviors that bother them. That is what I do when things get bad enough.
The second time we talked, I made sure you understood my pov, because expecting you to know what is important to me is unreasonable, even when what I expect is a cultural norm.
Petunia:
I made one post that did not mention you by name or even give clues as to the person's gender. Your comment on that thread was the mudslinging.
Golden:
I am not being obtuse. Yes, there have been ups and downs. At this time it seems that you want to be friends, but you are still blocking me.
Your in person and online behaviors do not match.
For example, you were very nice in sends me the pictures you too of Beanie. Thank you.
You could have changed your FB to reflect this kind gesture, but you did not.
So how am I being obtuse when your actions are not aligned.
In my post I did not mention you by name. So how is are actions fundamentally different?
Petunia:
Just because I lower my walls in one area does not mean that I am ready for more.
You addressed your comment directly to me.
No gray area there.
Golden:
And besides, why can't I address your actions when you choose to post them in a way that I can read it.
What is like talking loud enough for me to hear you and then you blaming me for reacting.
And you have never apologized.
What you did was mudsling too. You were passive aggressive.
You did and still are, avoiding accountable.
Petunia:
I looked up the definition of mudslinging and it's not the appropriate word for either of our actions.
I was not directing my post to you, so it's not passive aggressive. I was venting to the hive using ambiguity as to who the subject of my intolerance was.
I'm accountable. I haven't denied writing it. I don't feel I owe you an apology.
My inperson and online levels of communication do not have to match. I'm not ready to resume on Facebook at this time.
The long and the short of it is that you don't get to control someone else's behavior. It's rather ironic that a message bringing your attention to the fact that you stepped across a (control) boundary leads into you continuing to push.
Golden:
So you were writing about me?
I recall you confirming that you wrote it about me. You said something like, "only a few knew I was talking about you"
Correction: So you weren't writing about me? Who were you writing about?
Also, what is the definition of passive aggressive you are using?
Petunia:
I never said I didn't write that about you. I did write it about you.
Passive aggressive behavior is generally described as non-verbal aggression that manifests itself in negative behavior. It is when you are angry with someone but do not tell them. Instead of communicating honestly when you feel upset, annoyed, irritated or disappointed you may instead bottle the feelings up, shut off verbally, give angry looks, make obvious changes in behavior, be obstructive, sulky or put up a stone wall.
I was in ongoing communication about our issue when I posted that. I was in no way hiding or veiling my emotions from you.
You've gotten off topic by arguing about the reason why I chose to block you. The topic is that you didn't respect my boundary and right to block you and that you want to be able to control how I handled the situation. You do not get to control me. You get to control you. And you don't get to keep pushing!!!
cont...
Both Bond and I were extra kind to him all weekend. On Saturday we took Beanie with us and Bond's two youngest boys to a park on a peninsula park and spent the entire afternoon there.
I spent all of Sunday cooking soups for the freezer, because Golden asked me if I'd help him with that. In the end he didn't do any cooking and I made the soups I had planned in addition to the one recipe he found. All total I made four different soups. Before I finished up Golden said that he'd appreciate if either Bond or I would take a walk with him, because he needed to do some processing and could use an ear. I suggested to Bond that he go with him, because I was still cooking, and because I thought that Bond would be the better of the two of us to offer advice and feedback.
By that evening I was exhausted. I talked Bond into ordering pizza, because I just couldn't cook another meal. I had to go to the store to buy heavy cream and freezer containers. While I was gone Bond ordered the pizza and Golden picked it up. As soon as I walked into the kitchen I realized that I had forgotten the damn containers. I was so tired that I nearly cried, because I just didn't have the energy to go back again. TIRED. Bond helped me find containers that while not optimal they did serve the need.
After dinner when Bond and Z were taking a walk Golden was in the kitchen loading the dishwasher and as I passed through he brought up the fact that I had blocked him on Facebook. He told me that there were other options other than blocking him that I could have taken so that he couldn't see my posts. I nodded and shrugged and left the room. A little while later he came into my bedroom and basically told me that I should have restricted him instead. And then he went on ad nauseum. I felt myself getting pissed. I told him that yes there were other options, but I chose to block him.
When I told Bond he was like, "When we went for a walk he was saying that he needs to work on respecting boundaries and learning not to push and this is exactly what he's doing here - crossing boundaries and pushing."
When I woke up the next morning I had an uncomfortable feeling towards Golden, so I decided to let him know that what he did wasn't okay.
Ironically it's become a debate.
The text fight:
Golden, I am sending you this message because I think it may be useful for you to have a concrete example of when you've failed to respect boundaries and continue to push. Last night when you decided to address my blocking you on Facebook I don't think it was something that needed to be addressed; you were aware I had blocked you, you understood the circumstances, and you knew what the climate was between us at the time. Bringing it up once was within bounds and although I wasn't comfortable, I was somewhat okay with you doing so. Continuing the subject in my bedroom and going as far as telling me the way I should have handled it so that you'd have been more comfortable was not okay. That was going too far. I handled it the way I wanted to and it is my right to do so. You may not like it, but you have to accept it. You don't get to weigh in on the matter.
Golden:
I am sorry I made you uncomfortable.
I am not sure what personal boundary you are referring to. To cross a boundary I need to know it exists.
Please clearly state your boundary.
Re: my reason for broaching the subject.
Petunia, we agreed to be friends. I recalled you said you wanted to be good friends. To the best of my knowledge, I am doing my part to be friends.
A friend does not block their friend on Facebook.
Petunia:
I have asked you to give me space. You have agreed to this. Breaking our Facebook connection gave me an online space. I relaxed my position a lot this weekend because it seemed we were finding a way to share space and because you are going through a hard time and I felt you really don't need more stress.
Petunia:
Golden, you're being obtuse. You know full well that circumstances changed between asking to be friends and now.
Golden:
In a normal situation, I would ignore being blocked, but we live together. Living together is not a normal situation.
Seeing you is a constant reminder that what you say and do are not aligned. You say and act like we are friends face to face, but online you said extremely nasty things then blocked me and still are. I have no evidence to subject your behavior in private is any different then your online behavior.
In regards to our to talks last night, they have two different, but related themes.
The first time I approached you last night, I came to you with an open mind. I did not make assumptions about why you blocked me.
I stated that there are many different ways to limit contact between us. My intention was to start a conversation.
So the first time we talked, it was about FB.
The second time we talked was about friendship and making sure you understand what I expect from my friends, which is not to go online say extremely nasty things about each other. That is not friendship to me, especially since we live together.
I expect friends to communicate with me about my behaviors that bother them. That is what I do when things get bad enough.
The second time we talked, I made sure you understood my pov, because expecting you to know what is important to me is unreasonable, even when what I expect is a cultural norm.
Petunia:
I made one post that did not mention you by name or even give clues as to the person's gender. Your comment on that thread was the mudslinging.
Golden:
I am not being obtuse. Yes, there have been ups and downs. At this time it seems that you want to be friends, but you are still blocking me.
Your in person and online behaviors do not match.
For example, you were very nice in sends me the pictures you too of Beanie. Thank you.
You could have changed your FB to reflect this kind gesture, but you did not.
So how am I being obtuse when your actions are not aligned.
In my post I did not mention you by name. So how is are actions fundamentally different?
Petunia:
Just because I lower my walls in one area does not mean that I am ready for more.
You addressed your comment directly to me.
No gray area there.
Golden:
And besides, why can't I address your actions when you choose to post them in a way that I can read it.
What is like talking loud enough for me to hear you and then you blaming me for reacting.
And you have never apologized.
What you did was mudsling too. You were passive aggressive.
You did and still are, avoiding accountable.
Petunia:
I looked up the definition of mudslinging and it's not the appropriate word for either of our actions.
I was not directing my post to you, so it's not passive aggressive. I was venting to the hive using ambiguity as to who the subject of my intolerance was.
I'm accountable. I haven't denied writing it. I don't feel I owe you an apology.
My inperson and online levels of communication do not have to match. I'm not ready to resume on Facebook at this time.
The long and the short of it is that you don't get to control someone else's behavior. It's rather ironic that a message bringing your attention to the fact that you stepped across a (control) boundary leads into you continuing to push.
Golden:
So you were writing about me?
I recall you confirming that you wrote it about me. You said something like, "only a few knew I was talking about you"
Correction: So you weren't writing about me? Who were you writing about?
Also, what is the definition of passive aggressive you are using?
Petunia:
I never said I didn't write that about you. I did write it about you.
Passive aggressive behavior is generally described as non-verbal aggression that manifests itself in negative behavior. It is when you are angry with someone but do not tell them. Instead of communicating honestly when you feel upset, annoyed, irritated or disappointed you may instead bottle the feelings up, shut off verbally, give angry looks, make obvious changes in behavior, be obstructive, sulky or put up a stone wall.
I was in ongoing communication about our issue when I posted that. I was in no way hiding or veiling my emotions from you.
You've gotten off topic by arguing about the reason why I chose to block you. The topic is that you didn't respect my boundary and right to block you and that you want to be able to control how I handled the situation. You do not get to control me. You get to control you. And you don't get to keep pushing!!!
cont...
continued...
Golden:
You wrote,
"It[passive aggressive] is when you are angry with someone but do not tell them."
This are the facts.
1. You were angry.
2. You did not communicate your angry directly with me.
Occurring to your own definition you were passive aggressive.
Petunia, this is not about control, it never has been. However, I am starting to suspect that your feeling of being controlled existed when with had a romantic relationship, am I right?
Re: Healthy relationships are not about control.
I have repeated told you that your are free to do whatever you want. At the same time I express what being friends means to me. How else are you suppose to know how to be my friend?
A relationship, friendship or otherwise is a co-operative and healthy relationships co-construction as well.
If you assume you know what being a friends meanings to me, without checking your assumptions, that is your mistake. The consequence of your actions is that you have effectively created a mine field, of your design. The mines might be mine, but where you walk is your choice.
In short, regardless of how you formulate your assumptions, if you do not adjust your assumptions to match the person in question, you are asking for trouble.
Can you see how unchecked assumptions and expectations, when it comes to natural languages, are conflicts waiting to happen?
This is a fact, meaning making is a co-construction. From what I can tell you apparently disagree, which is also a mistake.
How is taking about your choice to block me crossing a boundary? At what time did you tell me this?
I can't cross a boundary that you have not communicated.
****************
I had no words. I never replied to his crazy ass. You cannot logic him into understanding.
Golden:
You wrote,
"It[passive aggressive] is when you are angry with someone but do not tell them."
This are the facts.
1. You were angry.
2. You did not communicate your angry directly with me.
Occurring to your own definition you were passive aggressive.
Petunia, this is not about control, it never has been. However, I am starting to suspect that your feeling of being controlled existed when with had a romantic relationship, am I right?
Re: Healthy relationships are not about control.
I have repeated told you that your are free to do whatever you want. At the same time I express what being friends means to me. How else are you suppose to know how to be my friend?
A relationship, friendship or otherwise is a co-operative and healthy relationships co-construction as well.
If you assume you know what being a friends meanings to me, without checking your assumptions, that is your mistake. The consequence of your actions is that you have effectively created a mine field, of your design. The mines might be mine, but where you walk is your choice.
In short, regardless of how you formulate your assumptions, if you do not adjust your assumptions to match the person in question, you are asking for trouble.
Can you see how unchecked assumptions and expectations, when it comes to natural languages, are conflicts waiting to happen?
This is a fact, meaning making is a co-construction. From what I can tell you apparently disagree, which is also a mistake.
How is taking about your choice to block me crossing a boundary? At what time did you tell me this?
I can't cross a boundary that you have not communicated.
****************
I had no words. I never replied to his crazy ass. You cannot logic him into understanding.
I received this in a text from Golden this morning:
I don't know if he's talking about being an overall ass over things or specifically this latest incident. ???????????? Bond thinks it has to do with the latest, but I'm not so sure. It does fit the 5-7 day window that it usually takes him before he apologizes. I'm never sure if that's the point where whether or not he truly does "get it" or if it's just the point where he feels it's time to find some resolution, so he extends an apology. <shrug>
What I do know is that he goes too extreme in his language and that puts me off.
Drive by: I finally get it. I have been a complete and utter asshole. I am not sure when this happened and it doesn't matter. The damage has been done.
I am sorry for hurting you.
You did not deserve what I did to you. I value you. I valued us.
I wish I had the words to express just how much I valued us, but I don't.
I am still trying to figure things out, until then please accept my humble apologizes.
Take care
To be clear, when we were together, I truly valued you. I was too blind to see how much you gave to me & us.
I didn't value you like I should have.
I am sorry for hurting you.
You did not deserve what I did to you. I value you. I valued us.
I wish I had the words to express just how much I valued us, but I don't.
I am still trying to figure things out, until then please accept my humble apologizes.
Take care
To be clear, when we were together, I truly valued you. I was too blind to see how much you gave to me & us.
I didn't value you like I should have.
I don't know if he's talking about being an overall ass over things or specifically this latest incident. ???????????? Bond thinks it has to do with the latest, but I'm not so sure. It does fit the 5-7 day window that it usually takes him before he apologizes. I'm never sure if that's the point where whether or not he truly does "get it" or if it's just the point where he feels it's time to find some resolution, so he extends an apology. <shrug>
What I do know is that he goes too extreme in his language and that puts me off.
Putting all the Golden bullshit aside, happy things are happening.
Bond, the boys, and I are heading for Texas this evening. I'm leaving work at 2:30 and I hope we're pulling out of the driveway before 5:00 pm. We've packed and/or staged most everything we think we'll need. We pick up the rental van at 4:00 pm. The younger two boys will arrive around 4:30. Z should be home at 4:15. I'm hoping we can keep them from spreading out in the house. I'd like to get them directly into the van so that we don't waste time.I'm feeling stressed about this trip. I'll be meeting his family for the first time. It'll be a long drive with the boys and I'm concerned how that will go. I bought a ridiculous amount of snack foods for the trip and we've packed movies to entertain them in the van, and Frisbees so they can stretch their legs at the rest stops.
What I need to work on is having a good attitude and letting go of the stress. This could be fun!
opalescent
Active member
Maybe you and Golden need to not text? I wonder if that would help communication.
Maybe. In-person communication isn't tits either.
Last night he told Bond and me that he wasn't sure if he was taking his son to see a play tonight (that his gf is directing), because he wasn't sure if he'd still be talking to her. Seems everything is imploding around him.
Vacation was fun. The kids traveled very well. I think it helped that they slept through the majority of it, because we traveled through the night. They would pop up when we stopped for gas and/or to switch drivers, follow me into the station to use the restrooms and then back to the van and back to sleep in a short time - although the first night the youngest was hoping we would start a movie at 2 AM. LOL. They were kind of funny about not wanting to go into the gas stations without me. I felt like a mother duck.
Bond's family was fabulous. I really, really liked them. I'm so happy that they seem to really like me, too. Over the course of the week we went from polite niceties to genuine affection. I wasn't expecting to find that and I don't think they were either, so it was especially sweet.
Texas was nice. I haven’t been there since I was in Jr. High. The weather was unusually cool for there, in the mid-sixties when we first arrived and then into the mid-to-upper 70’s the rest of the time. We enjoyed it, but the Texans thought it was chilly.
I don’t think I could live there. The cities merge one into another and it’s all hodgepodge and kind of depressing. His family lives in a nice area, but there is a lot of poverty in Texas and it wears on me. It was nice to return home to beautiful Wisconsin and especially [our city] where there is more than Tex-Mex and margaritas on the menu in our dining establishments.
The Bluebonnets were in bloom.
I was amazed by the mammoth size of the Live Oaks.
We came across this in a dance hall in Gruene. Who knew they still existed?!
All in all, it was a nice trip and I'm very glad we did it.
Bond's family was fabulous. I really, really liked them. I'm so happy that they seem to really like me, too. Over the course of the week we went from polite niceties to genuine affection. I wasn't expecting to find that and I don't think they were either, so it was especially sweet.
Texas was nice. I haven’t been there since I was in Jr. High. The weather was unusually cool for there, in the mid-sixties when we first arrived and then into the mid-to-upper 70’s the rest of the time. We enjoyed it, but the Texans thought it was chilly.
I don’t think I could live there. The cities merge one into another and it’s all hodgepodge and kind of depressing. His family lives in a nice area, but there is a lot of poverty in Texas and it wears on me. It was nice to return home to beautiful Wisconsin and especially [our city] where there is more than Tex-Mex and margaritas on the menu in our dining establishments.
The Bluebonnets were in bloom.
I was amazed by the mammoth size of the Live Oaks.
We came across this in a dance hall in Gruene. Who knew they still existed?!
All in all, it was a nice trip and I'm very glad we did it.
WhatHappened
Active member
What you're posting of your texts with Golden, I would strongly suggest you go put 'ten warning signs of word salad' into a search engine, and start reading.
The blue bonnets are beautiful! Glad you had a good trip!
The blue bonnets are beautiful! Glad you had a good trip!