The Best Life Yet

[Reverie]

Not to devalue your feelings or anything... but this stuff that you're mentioning right here seems to indicate that you realize that you're having a REALLY strong reaction to something that isn't necessarily proportional to that reaction. I agree that if this is an issue for you guys, he needs to work on it. But behaviors are not always so easily corrected by just being told once and then remembering to never do that again. We form habits that have to be broken over time with work. It sounds like Rider wants to fix this, but that might require the patience of bearing with him while he's reminded multiple times about his behavior until he forms a new habit of NOT doing those things. Your stress and exhaustion from all of the working and being sick might also just be contributing to how intense your reaction is to all of this.

Again, I'm not saying that he was in the right, only suggesting that it might not be that unreasonable for it to actually take a big, repeated effort on his part to change.

You guys have such an amazing relationship in so many other ways. I'm always inspired when reading your blog and thinking that you guys are an amazing example of how poly relationships can work really well. This thing seems like it should be a pebble in the road vs. a boulder.

I do hope that he's able to work on things and that you both feel better about it!

I do know that my reaction is hella intense compared to the little trigger, for sure. There is a part of me that involuntarily goes "OH, SHIT! Not this again!" and just kind of has a pre-emptive panic reaction anticipating worse stuff coming down the road—a tip-of-the-iceberg thing.

And I know that there are a LOT of other factors at play for me right now. The being overworked and sick thing is part of it, but there's also that I'm on my period, I still don't feel settled in our new place 100% yet, I'm still adjusting to working in an office and having a long commute again after three years of working at home, I've been having various life-administrative (phone/car/DMV) sorts of troubles recently, none of my own dating stuff has really worked out very well...I can barely catch my breath and stand back up before another challenge knocks me down.

All of the chaos around me has been leading me to view my downtime with Rider as my only place of sanctuary and joy at the moment, and recently, it had been really, really good between us. Better than ever, I dare say. So my reaction, I think, had a lot of "MY LAST SANCTUARY—VIOLATED!" going on. It just makes me feel like I have nothing left, you know? Maybe it would have mattered less if it had been the only drop in my stress bucket, but when my entire world is made of stress except for this one facet, and then stress is added there too, it's easy to feel like I am at or at least coming up on my breaking point.

I get what you're saying about the habit thing, but...it kind of boggles my mind that this could even be a habit?

Like, it seems like a bad habit is something that is a flaw in the way that you operate your life, and it's something that you must struggle to change because the negative consequences are somewhat down the road so they aren't causing you the immediate trouble that would put a fire under your ass to do things differently.

For example, you quickly learn not to put your coffee on the car dashboard because the consequences are immediate. If you're wise, you may never do it in the first place. If you're kinda oblivious or absent-minded, you might do it once, then instantly regret it. Compare that to how, if you set your coffee next to your laptop, it is a bad habit that may not come up to bite you until you get clumsy one day and spill it into your keyboard...and then you learn.

I would think that seeing that you've hurt someone you love, especially if they've spoken up about it in the moment, would be a "hot coffee from the dashboard to the lap" moment—the sort of thing that makes a lasting impression and you're like, "Whoops! Won't be doing that again!"

But maybe not?

I do know that it makes me feel pretty terrible that his usually good connection with me isn't enough to trump force of habit (if that's what it is) or NRE (if that is to blame). It's like a more poly version of the mono "but why can't I be enough?" refrain. I find myself wondering why, if he loves me so much, isn't it easy—nay, even preferable TO HIM, not just to me—for him to just focus on me when he's with me? It makes me feel pretty butthurt and undervalued that that isn't what is coming naturally to him. And that makes the idea of having patience for it an unpleasant proposition for me.

I mean, I'm sure we'll work it out. We're both committed to making this thing work. I just wish it were different.

I wish he didn't tend to completely see the world through different, less-reality-based eyes when he likes someone. Recent offense since I started this post? Him pulling the "known her longer" card on me. Um, no. Hanging out with someone for one week 20 years ago with no contact in between is not "known a long time." It's "briefly acquainted at a point in the distant past." What in the entire world could make him confuse the two? It's like he's completely lost perspective! I wish they made a reality serum—like a truth serum but for perception—so that it would make you see the truth the way that a truth serum supposedly makes people speak it. I would put him on IV drip right now and maybe he'd start making some sense again.

For his part, he's agreed to try to be more cognizant at least when it comes to the quality of the time we spend together.

For my part, I've agreed to try to mitigate my fear and replace it with hope.

One step in this that we discussed was for me to actually have a conversation with her. It's a lot easier to develop an unfounded resentment against someone who isn't a person to me, but rather a strange object that makes my lover act insane, much like PCP might. So I added her on Facebook and struck up a conversation.

You guys. It's so creepy. She's basically my double. She's my age within six weeks, also left-handed, and looks like me to the point where Oona said she basically looks like a cross between me and one of Oona's other friends.

She also loves cats and ren fairs, takes photos of gravestones, and posts Jim Morrison quotes, angry uterus memes, and things about Neil DeGrasse Tyson on her wall. She dyes her hair wild colors and wears glasses sometimes and has a tomboy thing going on. She used to play guitar right handed when she was young but quit when she struggled with hitting a wall with it so has been trying to re-learn. She seems smart and has good grammar and a decent vocabulary. Her name even begins with the same letter as mine.

And "having a crush on the older boy with eyeliner and nail polish who works in a local store"—which is how she describes their meeting—would totally have been a me-at-15 thing too. AND she also liked Sam, who is my other sporadic partner. Seriously, the main difference between us seems to be just that she has two children...maybe also that I always smile with teeth, and she never does.

So. How weird is that? I don't know whether to feel better or worse about that. I feel strange that a double of me exists in the first place, and even stranger about the fact that my fiancé has been neglecting my feelings in her favor, presumably simply because she is newer. I feel like I'm living in some sort of echo universe where a bizarro-world version of me met and tried to get with my future husband 16 years before I did, and is now coming back to haunt me. The plot thickens...

 

[Octopus]

Have you considered a no-phone agreement? I.e. Just for the bedroom, or just for reconnecting time when you get home after work. Then physically putting the phone in another room for a while so that the distraction can't even come up. Because it ***is*** addictive - even without the NRE aspect. And as soon as you start going down the texting rabbit hole it's even harder to stop. Getting notifications from replies. Or everytime you grab the phone to quickly check the time, you see a new reply and NRE brain gets sucked into the conversation all over again. So, physically putting the phone away may help. I know some people on this board have similar rules for dates or specific rooms or times.

 

[Reverie]

Have you considered a no-phone agreement? I.e. Just for the bedroom, or just for reconnecting time when you get home after work. Then physically putting the phone in another room for a while so that the distraction can't even come up. Because it ***is*** addictive - even without the NRE aspect. And as soon as you start going down the texting rabbit hole it's even harder to stop. Getting notifications from replies. Or everytime you grab the phone to quickly check the time, you see a new reply and NRE brain gets sucked into the conversation all over again. So, physically putting the phone away may help. I know some people on this board have similar rules for dates or specific rooms or times.

It may come to that, I guess. We'll see. We try to make as few specific agreements as possible, and MOST of the time, neither of us do the phone-in-face addiction thing. We're definitely not one of those couples you see out who are just independently playing on their phones constantly.

Usually if we have them out when we're together, it's either us checking in to Facebook together, or posting something funny we've just created together, or showing each other something interesting that came up in conversation. It's only when Rider is having NRE that it seems to go out the window.

If he keeps up the bad behavior, I suppose I could try to institute something like that.

I actually just came up with the perfect analogy for what it feels like, out of the blue!

So, like, it's like if you're out at a bar with someone, just you and them—not at a party, not traveling in a posse or invited extra interests along, but like "let's go out together tonight"—but instead of focusing on the person you are there with, you keep sneaking off to flirt with someone else and leaving the person you're with to their own devices.

It would feel like your date with them is not actually romantic anymore with the person that you're with, but rather thrilling and romantic with the extra person that you're not there with.

Unless you've said to the person you're with in advance "hey, there's someone foxy over there; mind if I go get their digits?" then you are actually being pretty shady! It's not a considerate, above-board way to treat a person that you love.

I know Rider would never do that to me in person, so why does it feel OK to him to do it virtually? I told him this analogy and he was like, "That IS a good analogy. Let's just have our special time tonight and enjoy being with each other. Like a do-over, OK?"

And...I'm willing to grant him that. OK. A do-over. Square one of rebuilding. I think he finally "gets it"; I can only hope that it clicks hard enough to influence his actions from here on out. I love finding the perfect analogy. It somehow makes everything better.

 

[Reverie]

You guys have such an amazing relationship in so many other ways. I'm always inspired when reading your blog and thinking that you guys are an amazing example of how poly relationships can work really well. This thing seems like it should be a pebble in the road vs. a boulder.

I also wanted to address this part specifically. Thank you for that. I do think that, in general, we work really well. I guess we're also proof that no matter how good natured we are, and no matter how committed to each other and to our relationship style, there really always will be some problems along the way. But it truly warms my heart to imagine that we're inspiring other people—even despite not being perfect.

 

[breathemusic]

Aww, you're welcome! While it's great to see how well you work together, part of what is so inspiring is that in those times when things aren't perfect, you guys do a good job of actually taking time to think about what's bothering you and really communicate with each other to work through it!

 

[Reverie]

Well, Rider did a fantastic job of turning that around by making me feel loved and important. He came home with flowers and asked me what food I was craving and ordered it. Then we did a "do-over" by watching a couple of episodes of the show we were supposed to start the other night that we hadn't because we'd started having a discussion instead. It was nice, snuggling on the couch.

Then we had our weekly music night, which was great. I learned a little more on the new guitar, then we ran through some of our standard covers that I play bass on, and then we did some of our originals, that I sing on. I had written a new song during my sleepless stress night (somehow my brain works like "add pain, output music"), but I opted not to work on the musical part of that with Rider yet because I didn't want to tap back into that feeling last night. But the music we did work on was amazing, and I just felt super revitalized by it.

When we wrapped up with our music and went to bed, I was very eager to finally have sex again. I tied Rider's hands above his head and shined a turquoise light on him, and he looked so beautiful lying there, bound and helpless, wide-eyed, freckled, and pale. I kind of wanted to draw it out but I couldn't help myself. We were both so ravenous that it was all over quickly. It was also AMAZING. My insides squinch up in a good way just remembering.

I fell asleep a lot happier than I had been in a few days. Every time we work through a problem, I feel happier and more in love afterward than ever. I have no idea how it works that way, but it does. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Tonight we have plans to dress up pretty for each other, play music, and get kinky. Tomorrow we go to an all-day music festival with Perry and probably Moss, which will be an interesting collision of worlds for me. I've been friends with Perry for eons, but Moss never met him, and Rider only recently did. They're all from different chapters of my life, and all musicians. I love that we're all kind of in the same place now.

 

[Reverie]

The weekend was really good. Friday night I got prettied up and met Rider out for happy hour. We had one round and then went back to the house to play music and have sex. We worked on the new song, which is super simple and kind of repetitive on purpose, as it is intended to be sort of a meditative gospel-sounding thing. Rider added guitar to the vocal melody I'd already written.

To Be Still

And it will be whatever it is.
Yes, it will be whatever it is.
It might be small;
it might be big,
but it will be whatever it is.

I won't block the way.
I won't make a fuss.
I'll let you make what you will of us.
A watered rose, a coat of rust,
a kiss goodbye, or mingled dust.

And it will be whatever it is.
Yes, it will be whatever it is.
And if I leave,
it's what I needed,
and it will be whatever it is.

I wrote it as sort of a self-soothing lullaby to try to get myself to sleep the other night, reminding myself that the only thing that I can control in this world is my own actions, and that there's always the option of removing myself from a situation if it gets to be too much. Despite being so simple and repetitive, it's really turning into something beautiful.

It's funny—when we finally get our album recorded (soon!) and someone sits down to listen to it, they might get the wrong impression about our relationship. Nearly half the songs have lyrics about the struggle side of poly: feeling lonely, feeling jealous, having to distance myself from a situation that involves a poisonous metamour, feeling out where my own boundaries lie when I realize I'm unwilling to stay in a situation if it doesn't improve. But I'm not unhappy half the time! It's just that I tend to turn strong negative emotions into art (and strong positive emotions into sex, which doesn't leave nearly as lasting a record).

But I think maybe the world needs more personal, emotional poly songs, so I guess that's not a bad thing. Most sad love songs are about getting dumped or cheated on in a monogamous relationship, and when I need a good wallow into a song that *I* can identify with (i.e., my lover's other lover is being a jerk; it sure is lonely sometimes when I can't find a date while my partner has two other partners; I'd like to get over this jealousy because I think it's unreasonable and there's nothing to be afraid of, etc.), there are very little that fit the bill.

I have promised to anonymize them and put them up on YouTube and link them here when they're done. I figure we'll probably have them finished by the end of the summer.

After we finished laying down some chords for the song and doing a rough recording so we didn't forget what we did, we went to bed, and I tied Rider up for the second night in a row. It was fun, as always.

Our sex is always so good. I would say that now that we have been together for two years (our sexiversary is tomorrow), I have definitely had more sex with him than I have ever had with anyone. It's not yet my longest relationship (that would be either Moss, or The Ex, depending on how you count it, both clocking in somewhere above three but below four years), but we have sex WAY more frequently than I ever have with anyone. We do something sexual, even if it's not PIV, pretty much every night we're together, and for the past year, that's been pretty much every night. I maybe had sex once or twice a week with Moss or The Ex—and not always even that much. The Ex would go through spells where he was just not interested for two months.

But even though we have had more sex than I've had with anyone, there's so much variety to it that it never gets boring. We do hand things and mouth things and different positions and chastity and bondage and strap-on...lingerie on one or both of us, scalpel play, foot worship...we involve toys and porn and other people...bedroom sex, living room sex, hotel sex, rental car sex....and I feel like we still have even more things that we want to do and try. It's fantastic!

There's also the fact that I am just so much more attracted to him than I have ever been to anyone else. The thrill doesn't go away—his kisses still light me on fire, and he can get my parts pulsing with a look or a phrase. The chemistry is intense and undeniable. From the very beginning, the thought that sometimes tips me over the edge to orgasm when we're together is that it is him that I'm with—my beautiful best friend who I fell in love with before I ever even kissed. It's almost like having a fetish for a person. Before I met him, I had no idea that was possible. So, yay, us for our impending sexiversary and on things still being fantastic in that arena.

When we woke up Saturday morning, we decided to have more sex, and it was again fun. I was a little sore from all the fun of the night before, but it was still worth it. Afterwards, I realized that the antibiotic was starting to cause a yeast infection, so I will have to lay off the sex for a bit while that fixes up.

Saturday afternoon, Rider and I ran some errands, then headed to the indoor music festival, where we met up with Perry. Moss had decided not to go. The festival was super fun. Rider and I had brought some party favors, since it was a lot of psychedelic music; he said it seemed the perfect opportunity to use up the stuff we had left that we got in Former City. Perry couldn't stick around very long; he had a party to go to in the evening, so we waited until he was about to leave to partake in our supplies.

It was a really good time! Almost all the bands that played were good, and we timed our plans up really well so that the most intensely psychedelic band timed up with the most intense part of our journey. Rider and I laughed so much that my cheeks and belly were sore. We left when there was still one band left and walked back to our motel room, which was a hilarious adventure in itself since the venue was located in an area not very conducive to walking, and we kept getting thwarted by lack of crosswalks where we needed them.

Once in the motel room, we showered the festival crud off of us and cuddled up on the bed. The motel was super budget-style and had obviously not been renovated since the '70s. It made everything even funnier because we felt like we were in a movie—nothing looks like that any more in real life! We lay there face to face, talking and laughing, and as my eyes were fixed on Rider's face, I just kept thinking that he was the most beautiful person in the world. His skin, his teeth, his eyes, his lips, his nose, his hair, the radiant energy of his smile. I felt like the luckiest lady in the world. We slowly wound down and drifted off to sleep.

In the morning we woke up and got fast food for breakfast. Rider has been trying to be pescetarian (but mostly vegetarian) along with me for the past few weeks. I'm not really sure what started it, but I'm proud of him. He managed to avoid getting the super heart-attack burger he usually gets from that fast food joint!

We had plans to go hiking and picnic with Oona and Toby, and Rider's old friend John also wanted to know what we were up to, so Rider invited him along. It was so great being out in nature, and everyone got along well with everyone else. I had packed bread and cheese and fruit, and Oona had packed mimosa fixings, and Rider brought a couple of beers for the guys. We hiked for about 45 minutes, then found a nice picnic spot and chilled out, snacking and enjoying the view. I love how Rider is more open to doing outdoor things now that we are in a different climate.

After the hike, John split and we went to a Mexican restaurant with Oona and Toby. Apparently, after we parted ways and all headed home, Toby gave Oona permission to be sexual with me again, and Oona even said that Rider could even be present—I didn't even ask or anything; she just volunteered that! This is very exciting! We have no immediate plans, but I have visions dancing in my head!

Another exciting thing that is happening is that Allie is coming to visit! She's actually visiting another local friend, but she plans to spend a night with us while she's here. This thrills me because Allie is one of my favorite people to watch Rider with. I love playing with her myself, too, but there's something about watching those two giant, pale, fair-haired creatures go at it that is fascinating to me—they are so similar to each other and so different from me!

(continued...)

 

[Reverie]

(...continued from previous)

Rider is still being really good about the whole texting thing. I guess I really got through to him. I thanked him today for really following through with what he said, and he said he always wants to love and honor me, then thanked me for working so hard to find a way to explain the way that I felt that he could really understand, and for being so patient with him. But, yeah, I haven't noticed a single shred of his attention being pulled away from "us time" anymore. My breath still catches a little bit when I remember how stressed out I felt, or if I see Rita's name pop up on Facebook, but it is fading already.

Rider and Perry have asked me to start a band with them. I am into the idea in theory, but I already don't have a lot of spare time, so I will just have to see if I can work it out. Perry was saying once a week would be good for practice, which isn't too bad as long as it's not for an extreme number of hours. If it's, say, two or three hours, then I can still manage to get some work done that night, AND I'm still getting Rider-time, friend-time, and creative-time in since I'll be with them, so it'll be accomplishing many things at once.

I've been thinking a lot about what I really want out of my life, and out of my relationship, and out of poly, and...it's like...I want to be healthy, and I want my relationship to last and meet my sex/love/attention needs, and I want to excel at my job, and I want to be creatively fulfilled.

I really do wish that I had MORE time with Rider, but I know it can't be helped at the moment because my career is a little demanding right now. But other than that, I am pretty happy with the way that things are, and the way that things have been. I definitely don't want LESS of him. Which is why after things didn't really lean romantic with any of my OKC dates, I decided I was fine going back to not dating. And which is why I really don't want any of his outside connections to encroach on our time together.

I just am so very far from bored with him that I still want lots and lots. I want the freedom to have a bit of sexual variety, but I don't have the energy or time bandwidth to take on more emotional/romantic relationships right now. And I guess I'm fine if he does have that bandwidth and can do that with others, but only if it doesn't detract from what I have, because what I have is meeting my needs perfectly right now, but it probably wouldn't be if I got less of him.

Could I meet some of those sex/love/attention needs elsewhere if I were suddenly in a position where I had to get less of him? Maybe...? Every time I've tried, it's always felt like a less fulfilling situation.

Is it unethical that I prefer that "our time" be sacred—and that I have limited windows available for "our time," so pretty much whatever time works for me needs to be the rigid structure around which things are built? I'm not sure.

On the one hand, I feel like I have the right to prefer the things that I prefer, and to voice those preferences to Rider, and to make him responsible for communicating to anyone else he gets involved with that this (limited time frame) is the time frame in which he is available. I feel like I shouldn't feel bad about having only X number of hours in my week to fit in "partner time" and for that same "X hours" also being about the minimum hours of "partner time" that I need in order to be happy and to feel loved and cherished—nor that Rider seems willing and eager to give me that time.

On the other hand, I do recognize that even if Rider communicates up front with new people about the fact that he's only available pretty much when I'm not available to him, that takes some degree of flexibility and agency out of those new people's ability to negotiate how THEIR lives with him might look. I understand that that might be sort of unfair to them, and the idea of that built-in unfairness makes me worry.

It frightens me that they might be OK with that at the beginning but then over time wish to have more (because that is natural and Rider is AWESOME), and if he becomes very attached to them (because he is very squishy and dizzy over girls), then he might want to give them more to satisfy them, thus cutting my time down below what I feel like I need. And I want him to have what he wants, since it's his life, but I'm afraid of not having my needs met, because it's my life too.

I understand that this is a very basic problem of poly, but I am still afraid of running into it. I'm not sure how it would work out given my very tight schedule without ending up making me unhappy. And I feel a bit silly for being afraid of things that might happen in the future—there are a lot of "mights" and "maybes" and "what ifs" involved in there. But it also seems foolish to count on things always being as they are right now. So I am just doing what the song says: accepting that everything will be whatever it is, and I can only control my own part of it, and trusting that Rider will do whatever he can to both love and honor me while also staying true to his own wants and needs. Or...we will eventually part ways.

All of this is the scariest thing I've ever done! The combination of laying my heart utterly bare and letting someone know everything about me, including my deepest fears + trying to place full trust that someone will love me enough to not hurt me too much, even when they do accidentally hurt me sometimes + letting go of trying to control any outcome even when I can see so many scary possibilities + trying to place enough trust in myself that I will actually be able to walk away if I find that my needs are no longer consistently getting met = feeling sometimes like I am almost certainly setting myself up for heartbreak.

But it's been working so far, every time I've managed it, and we've gotten better together every time we've cleared a hurdle. (Which of course makes what's at stake scarier each time I consider losing it.) Right now, though, I feel pretty good.

 

[AutumnLeaves]

Is it unethical that I prefer that "our time" be sacred—and that I have limited windows available for "our time," so pretty much whatever time works for me needs to be the rigid structure around which things are built? I'm not sure.

Ideal from a philosophical perspective, probably not. No one owns anyone else's time. But unethical?

That's different.

In my opinion, poly is all about mutually beneficial, freely and openly negotiated agreements. I think where you get in trouble is the "needs to be." Needs to be for you or needs to be because that's how he feels too are different.

If that's what he wants, too, and all of this worry is for nothing. I know he has a history of being a people-pleaser, but you also have a history of working on hard issues like this. If he tells you that that's enough for him, you should trust it. Even if you do have to mentally gird yourself against the possibility that he'll need you to reality check him if he gets super NRE with someone that wants more time, if your feelings get hurt (just like I presume he'd do for you).

But if he feels differently, then yes, the time possessiveness could be an ethical problem instead of a not-problem-but-but-maybe-not-ideal thing. If that makes sense.

 

[Reverie]

Ideal from a philosophical perspective, probably not. No one owns anyone else's time. But unethical?

That's different.

In my opinion, poly is all about mutually beneficial, freely and openly negotiated agreements. I think where you get in trouble is the "needs to be." Needs to be for you or needs to be because that's how he feels too are different.

If that's what he wants, too, and all of this worry is for nothing. I know he has a history of being a people-pleaser, but you also have a history of working on hard issues like this. If he tells you that that's enough for him, you should trust it. Even if you do have to mentally gird yourself against the possibility that he'll need you to reality check him if he gets super NRE with someone that wants more time, if your feelings get hurt (just like I presume he'd do for you).

But if he feels differently, then yes, the time possessiveness could be an ethical problem instead of a not-problem-but-but-maybe-not-ideal thing. If that makes sense.

I guess that this gives me an opportunity to break it down yet further and clarify:

It's not exactly that I want to own his time or be in charge of all his free time. It's that at this juncture in our life together, he has significantly more free time than I do, and so the time that we spend together is mostly determined by my work schedule. I can't really be very flexible about WHEN we spend time together, so IF we want to spend a certain amount of time together, it has to be when my work schedule allows it. That's where the "needs to be" thing comes in.

If he wants to spend the rest of his free time—the time when I'm stuck working—with someone else, that has little to no bearing on our relationship, so I don't think it'd bother me much (other than maybe inspiring some of that aforementioned envy that he gets to have more fun and connection than I do, but I recognize that is my own problem to deal with and nothing at all to with him).

It was different back in Former City, when he got home from work at about the time that I finished working from home. He had a commute and I didn't, so I'd get a full 8–10 hour work day in (depending on how much I had to do) and by the time he got home, USUALLY I was free. Sometimes I did have extra projects, but he'd spend that time working on music or whatever. But in general, we had a similar amount of free time, which was more than I have now, and we'd spend some of that time together and some of it with other friends (or, more likely, with him being more social than I am, he'd go out with other friends and I'd decompress alone).

These days, I spend nearly two hours a day sitting in traffic, and that and the time I spend running has become my default "alone time" where I listen to podcasts or gather my thoughts or sometimes talk to Oona on the phone. And then as soon as I got back from my conference gauntlet, I had to start a new project for work that is to be completed outside of regular work hours, sort of like freelancing but for the company I work for. Yes, it is technically optional, and I get paid for it outside of my salary. But it is not actually optional, in that it needs to be me who does it if I am to continue to be seriously considered for the executive position my boss says he eventually sees me in. So that takes up a serious chunk of my time during the week—usually an hour or two each weeknight and a larger chunk of at least one weekend day, whichever day when Rider and I don't have some social event planned with friends.

Because I'm so busy all the time, yes, Rider wants to spend all the time with me that I have available, so currently, there is no conflict there. We agree on that. I've even been trying to tweak my schedule so that I get up early and run in the morning instead of after getting home from work, so that I'm not cutting into our evening time.

The thing that I was pondering the ethics of is...the effect that this would have on a hypothetical third person. Not Rita, per se, because she is so long distance and they have no plans to travel that all of their communication is online and therefore it's more or less the same to them what time of day that they chat, as long as they actually get to. But if a time comes when there is a "real life" person while I am still so busy, that's where it seems to get questionable to me. If, in order to be at our ideal together, Rider and I would be spending MORE time together rather than LESS, a new person would either have to be naturally be happy with the open slots already in Rider's schedule or they would be overall UNhappy. If they are not naturally happy that way—if they want some accommodation for their own schedule, then it would take away from the time we already have together, which we both think is already too little.

And I don't want to be one of those metamours who is like "my way or the highway"...but at the same time, I don't want my "partner time" to drop below the levels at which *I* am naturally happy. If I had another partner who could provide additional "partner time" to fill any gaps that Rider might leave if he was off with someone else, then hypothetically, that could be a solution, but it comes with its own similar problems—namely, THAT person would then have to fit into THOSE pre-existing gaps, and what if THEY weren't naturally happy with that?

Not to mention that every time I've tried to date, I've really discovered that I don't have much energy for it and no one seems very worth it. Plus, it also seems a little weird just to try to date to "fill a hole."

So I'm at a weird point.

Like, I hypothetically want to be poly—and I know that both Rider and I are capable of loving more than one person at a time—and I do enjoy our forays into sexual adventure, but I am having a hard time seeing how very busy people with demanding professional lives can *ethically* do poly. By ethically, I mean, without expecting that the other people we date must fit neatly into the little puzzle spaces left between our careers and our existing relationship.

It seems slightly "not nice" to a hypothetical third and/or fourth person to expect them to be happy with schedule "leavings"...but it also seems slightly "not nice" to ourselves to dial back what we have together when we already agree that we don't have enough and would like more time with each other. Does that make sense?

I am trying to puzzle my way through how this would possibly work without one or multiple people getting hurt, and I am not coming up with very good solutions. So far, as close as we can seem to get is "having sexual adventures casually (separate or apart) with friends who like us both enough to want to hang out in group settings sometimes." But that's not exactly poly, is it? It's closer to somewhere between FWB and swinging, I think.

I feel like once romance/love gets involved, there comes with it the likelihood that fitting into the existing schedule will not be desirable long-term. And what happens then?

It happened with me and Rider, after all. When we were just friends, and he was with Claire, we went from having our music night on Wednesdays and one 12-hour weekend hangout period, which satisfied us both because we were just friends...to dating and being basically insatiable for each other once we fell in love. He would spend his two nights with Claire that he'd always spent with her (not cutting back her time at all) and he'd spend the rest of his time with me. After she got wind of my getting more time than she did, she suddenly wanted equal time, and that was not palatable for either me or Rider. We tried cutting my number of days back to two to keep her happy—now we'd be equal—but that was not above starvation ration for me, and I began to become deeply unhappy with the deficit. I could not continue to fit into the schedule she wanted me to have so that we would be equal. If I'd been "made" to, it would have eventually withered me away to the point where I'd have left.

She was butthurt about my getting more time than her, even though she didn't lose any time as a result. In a similar situation, I am sure that I would get butthurt about actually losing time, since my time is so limited in the first place. But I also don't want to put anyone else on starvation rations either! That sucked super hard, wanting so much of someone and knowing that the reason I couldn't have it was because people other than me were making that decision. Even though it wasn't exactly the same circumstance, it seems like it'd be close.

What hypothetical person would agree to "well, I can see you only when my other partner isn't available—I'll keep you posted."? Maybe someone else who already has someone to come home to, who wouldn't themselves be starving for "partner time," which they would feel more keenly if they like someone and have a partner in mind for that "partner time." But Rider has been explicit that he has no desire to limit his dating pool the way I did to people who are already poly—he welcomes them, of course, but he does not require that.

It would be different if we both got home from work at 6 and then just had leisure time until 12, and had wide-open weekends. If I had him for 6 hours two or three weeknights each week, instead of two hours each night, then, sure, it would be no big deal to sacrifice those other nights. But my schedule just doesn't make that possible at this point in time.

(continued...)

 

[Reverie]

(...continued from previous)

Anyway, it's not even something that has an immediacy to it right now—there is no actual local person at the moment. It's just that our recent conversations have opened up this topic in my mind and...it's really kind of scary that I can't seem to find any solution to it that is totally satisfactory to me in both an ethical (to the other person) and a "still get my needs met" sense. While it may be silly to be banging my head against something that isn't even happening yet, at the same time, in one sense it seems like it's probably wise to be considering all of this before it DOES have an immediacy to it—before "hypothetical someone" wanders into our lives and becomes "actual someone."

Right now, I get an adequate amount of alone time, an adequate amount of creative/hobby time, an adequate amount of sleep, and if I could adjust the slider to have slightly less work time and slightly more partner time, I would. But I can't.

I dunno. I know a lot of people on these boards have even busier lives than I do. They have kids and stuff in addition to busy jobs where they work long hours. (I can't even imagine!) I guess in most (but not all) of those circumstances, THEY are the people juggling multiple partners, so they are rarely dealing with a deficit of partner time. It has been hard for me to find someone else, and I don't really see that changing because I don't have a lot of energy to devote to looking—something would have to fall into my lap.

In theory, if time were not a factor, I'd happily be part of a poly family/tribe where everyone got plenty of together time (all together), "alone together" time (one on one with partners), and alone time (solo time). I love love. I love cuddle piles. I love group sex. I love having compersion and hearing about my partners' crushes, as long as I don't feel like they are taking away from my needs getting met. But with time at a premium, I don't know how people make it work without feeling like their relationships are underfed.

I guess I just need to put down the philosophizing and be grateful to the universe that I don't have to deal with that question at this exact moment, since I don't yet have the answer. Maybe necessity will mother the invention of the solution when the situation arises.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Like, I hypothetically want to be poly—and I know that both Rider and I are capable of loving more than one person at a time—and I do enjoy our forays into sexual adventure, but I am having a hard time seeing how very busy people with demanding professional lives can *ethically* do poly. By ethically, I mean, without expecting that the other people we date must fit neatly into the little puzzle spaces left between our careers and our existing relationship.

It seems slightly "not nice" to a hypothetical third and/or fourth person to expect them to be happy with schedule "leavings"...but it also seems slightly "not nice" to ourselves to dial back what we have together when we already agree that we don't have enough and would like more time with each other. Does that make sense?

So. Much. Sense. This is my life.

I actually don't stress about the amount of time Andy spends with others, because right now "me time" is in short supply and I'm always happy to get a night to myself. But I feel it from the other direction - trying to be home when Andy is, vs trying to see Dag as much as possible.

What hypothetical person would agree to "well, I can see you only when my other partner isn't available—I'll keep you posted."? Maybe someone else who already has someone to come home to, who wouldn't themselves be starving for "partner time," which they would feel more keenly if they like someone and have a partner in mind for that "partner time." But Rider has been explicit that he has no desire to limit his dating pool the way I did to people who are already poly—he welcomes them, of course, but he does not require that.

Someone who already has someone to come home to... Not necessarily a partner, could be kids, or roommates... Or someone who prefers alone time. This has always been my solution, to only date folks who are 100% ok with less time together.

It's not a magic bullet. I frequently feel like I'm shortchanging Dag in terms of time, but he feels like he does the same to me. We both realize that our relationship is only going to work long term if we can accept only seeing each other when our schedules align naturally. Whether that's twice a week or twice a month. I'd prefer more in person time... So would he, I think... But blowing off our spouses/work/families/friends to get a couple extra hours together led to resentment (and exhaustion) over time.

I get where Rider is coming from, not wanting to artificially limit his dating pool. It may happen naturally, though. He's always going to want time for you, and friends, and music... so the partners who "work out" will probably be the ones who mesh well with his schedule and lifestyle. Neither of Andy's friend-girls have a nesting partner, but both are completely content filling their time with their kids, their friends, and their hobbies. In fact he's usually the one griping that they're too busy to see him

 

[Reverie]

We both realize that our relationship is only going to work long term if we can accept only seeing each other when our schedules align naturally. Whether that's twice a week or twice a month. I'd prefer more in person time... So would he, I think... But blowing off our spouses/work/families/friends to get a couple extra hours together led to resentment (and exhaustion) over time.

This, I think, is the best I could hope for—that "hypothetical third person" has the same realization as you and Dag, and that Rider does not get so swept away in NRE that he realizes it too. We are slowly working toward his possessing NRE-mitigation skills, so I feel like I'll eventually be able to trust him on this front, but "hypothetical third person" is such a wild card—and I couldn't blame her if she balked at this. I would. I did! My feelings for him were an uncontrollable juggernaut that would have never been satisfied with "twice a week or twice a month."

I get where Rider is coming from, not wanting to artificially limit his dating pool. It may happen naturally, though. He's always going to want time for you, and friends, and music... so the partners who "work out" will probably be the ones who mesh well with his schedule and lifestyle. Neither of Andy's friend-girls have a nesting partner, but both are completely content filling their time with their kids, their friends, and their hobbies. In fact he's usually the one griping that they're too busy to see him

And this is another area that seems like the best I could hope for, in theory, but I also think that the unspoken idea behind "the partners who work out being the ones who mesh with his schedule" is that there will be partners who DON'T work out because they DON'T mesh with his schedule (which is mostly determined by MY schedule) even if they DO have feelings for each other. And that kind of sounds to me like it might be leaving a trail of drama and carnage behind on the way to figuring that out. Maybe I'm overthinking it...

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

And this is another area that seems like the best I could hope for, in theory, but I also think that the unspoken idea behind "the partners who work out being the ones who mesh with his schedule" is that there will be partners who DON'T work out because they DON'T mesh with his schedule (which is mostly determined by MY schedule) even if they DO have feelings for each other. And that kind of sounds to me like it might be leaving a trail of drama and carnage behind on the way to figuring that out. Maybe I'm overthinking it...

I think this is a strategy that works best for people like me, who are unabashedly brutal about nipping things in the bud at the first hint of scheduling issues! I met lots of seriously awesome guys who were only free on weekends but that's my main time with Andy. I forced myself to walk away after a few weeks of casually dating. Even though I *really* liked them. Because I sure as hell didn't want to have to do it after the feelings moved beyond like I know it's really "couple-privilege-y" of me, but ... Dating someone whose schedule meant missing out on huge chunks of time with Andy would make me stressed and miserable.

There's always the chance Rider will meet someone and want much more with them than a couple of dates a week or a month. And I get why that's scary, the thought of having to renogotiate your whole relationship is overwhelming. I worry about it when Andy dates, and I know he worries about it when I date. But honestly? I'm amazed every day that I found ONE person I can live with day in and day out and I've learned to stop stressing/expecting other relationships to turn into that level of commitment. What you and Rider have is rare and wonderful, and not something that comes along very often.

 

[Reverie]

I think this is a strategy that works best for people like me, who are unabashedly brutal about nipping things in the bud at the first hint of scheduling issues! I met lots of seriously awesome guys who were only free on weekends but that's my main time with Andy. I forced myself to walk away after a few weeks of casually dating. Even though I *really* liked them. Because I sure as hell didn't want to have to do it after the feelings moved beyond like I know it's really "couple-privilege-y" of me, but ... Dating someone whose schedule meant missing out on huge chunks of time with Andy would make me stressed and miserable.

There's always the chance Rider will meet someone and want much more with them than a couple of dates a week or a month. And I get why that's scary, the thought of having to renogotiate your whole relationship is overwhelming. I worry about it when Andy dates, and I know he worries about it when I date. But honestly? I'm amazed every day that I found ONE person I can live with day in and day out and I've learned to stop stressing/expecting other relationships to turn into that level of commitment. What you and Rider have is rare and wonderful, and not something that comes along very often.

All of these are good points and are reassuring. One of the things that Rider and I do occasionally tell each other and ourselves when we get nervous is that, sure, either of us COULD meet someone who is more compatible with us than we are with each other. But given that it took me 31 years and him 36 years of living and many years of dating and relationships, none of which ever even came CLOSE to the connection we have together (nor has anyone since, in our poly dating experience) it is probably unlikely. I don't think either of us would endanger our relationship on purpose, and we just have to trust each other that we each will be willing to make whatever sacrifices are necessary to keep each other's needs met, as long as our true needs aren't crossing each other's boundaries and aren't mutually exclusive to the point where meeting one's will be falling short of the other's.

It's good to hear a similar sentiment coming from someone outside the relationship—someone who understands that "rare and wonderful and not something that comes along every day" can be both comforting (because it means it's unlikely to get superseded) and also terrifying (because it's SO VERY MUCH at stake to lose if something goes awry). Two sides of the same coin.

 

[Reverie]

I've been reflecting on it since my last post, and I just wanted to come here and tell y'all how much I appreciate you. When I was feeling really rough a few days ago and thinking about not posting here because I didn't think I had any energy left to process, you guys batted some questions at me that IMMEDIATELY re-infused me with energy again.

And exploring and clarifying things here in response to your questions and comments has helped immeasurably in the process of my refining and elucidating my own preferences, desires, and fears—which in turn helps me communicate these new discoveries to Rider, which makes my relationship run more smoothly.

Every time I hit a rough patch, people here come out of lurking and offer advice and support that helps me. So, thanks!

 

[InfinitePossibility]

Like, I hypothetically want to be poly—and I know that both Rider and I are capable of loving more than one person at a time—and I do enjoy our forays into sexual adventure, but I am having a hard time seeing how very busy people with demanding professional lives can *ethically* do poly. By ethically, I mean, without expecting that the other people we date must fit neatly into the little puzzle spaces left between our careers and our existing relationship.

I think you are hard on yourself, Reverie.

This is the sort of thing I questioned myself about when I was considering some kind of non-monogamy as a relationship model. I came to the conclusion that in my circumstance it wouldn't be ethical to do so. Too busy, not enough interest in romantic relationships and a social circle that would make it a bad fit.

Since I'm happy with the things I'm busy doing - much of it is pursuing my passions (I have a well paid, professional job that doesn't take up loads of my time), don't want to change my social circle and am not interested in making sex or romance a bigger part of my life (one sexual and romantic partner is enough for me and I need them to have only me in that role too - I have zero interest in the level of relationship chats that poly seems to require), for me to be non-monogamous wouldn't fit in with my ethics.

You, however, strike me as being very different from me. Yes. You are busy with work and with the building of a career - but when you aren't doing that stuff, you seek romantic and sexual connections. In time when your career isn't so all consuming, it's likely that you will look be open to more sex and romance. You are massively interested in romantic and sexual relationships. You enjoy the work and the challenge of them - and are happy to spend large amounts of time and energy on puzzling them. And - you have a social circle who are open to non-monogamy.

This can - and is - done very ethically by you.

I'm glad that you are feeling better.

IP

 

[Reverie]

I think you are hard on yourself, Reverie.

This is the sort of thing I questioned myself about when I was considering some kind of non-monogamy as a relationship model. I came to the conclusion that in my circumstance it wouldn't be ethical to do so. Too busy, not enough interest in romantic relationships and a social circle that would make it a bad fit.

Since I'm happy with the things I'm busy doing - much of it is pursuing my passions (I have a well paid, professional job that doesn't take up loads of my time), don't want to change my social circle and am not interested in making sex or romance a bigger part of my life (one sexual and romantic partner is enough for me and I need them to have only me in that role too - I have zero interest in the level of relationship chats that poly seems to require), for me to be non-monogamous wouldn't fit in with my ethics.

You, however, strike me as being very different from me. Yes. You are busy with work and with the building of a career - but when you aren't doing that stuff, you seek romantic and sexual connections. In time when your career isn't so all consuming, it's likely that you will look be open to more sex and romance. You are massively interested in romantic and sexual relationships. You enjoy the work and the challenge of them - and are happy to spend large amounts of time and energy on puzzling them. And - you have a social circle who are open to non-monogamy.

This can - and is - done very ethically by you.

I'm glad that you are feeling better.

IP

Thank you for this. It's true that when things calm down a bit with work stuff, it is far more likely that I'll again pick up my interest in outside relationships. I really DO love love, and to some degree, I feel like "doing love" and "doing relationships" are my biggest talents. I have plenty of other hobbies and things I love doing, but the work of getting good at them is always closer to drudgery than the work of loving is. I get excited about and am compelled to succeed in loving and making people feel loved in a way that maybe only songwriting comes close to. My whole questioning the ethics is part of that; I don't want to set anyone up for unnecessary hurt—not myself, not Rider, and not any yet-to-be-determined third parties. I suppose as long as I'm erring on the side of thinking about that stuff, I'll probably be OK. If I'm being hard on myself, I guess maybe it's because I want to err on the side of not being too cavalier.

 

[Reverie]

Things are still going well. Rider and I had a pretty mellow night last night: I cooked, he watched his wrestling show, and I sat next to him on the couch working while he did that. The buddy he usually watches with is out of town for a month.

I wrapped my work up around 11:45 and we had some super hot sexytimes. We've settled on a technique of using a large piece of plastic wrap as a dental dam when I am having yeast issues, which often follow a course of antibiotics for me, so that's what we've done for the past few nights. It's surprisingly awesome! The crinkling sound of the plastic wrap is maybe a tiny bit distracting, but it's not terribly difficult for me to tune it out. And Rider's mad skillz persist despite the barrier. He's so subby that it actually turns him on to be close but not quite getting access. Hot! And I still get orgasms while I wait for things to clear up. Win/win.

This morning when I was showering after my run, I was thinking about how Rita and I had had that one good, in-depth IM conversation last week, and how I've never really had an internet-only actual friend (not to mention potential metamour) before—at least, not since the chat-room days of my '90s adolescence. And how I generally put forth an honest effort to be friends with people that Rider is interested in, but it's kind of difficult to do so if I've never even met this person and am possibly never going to. How do I make a friendship work under those circumstances? What do I do to get to know them better?

And then I remembered the concept of pen pals. I had a pen pal when I was in the 6th or 7th grade, assigned to me by my school. He was a boy from Germany named Berger, a few years older, and we would write back and forth all throughout the school year. It was always thrilling to receive that air-mail envelope, and it was fun to get to know someone who was far enough away that we'd probably never meet in real life.

I realized that technically, at this point, that was sort of what Rita could be to me. Basically, she was an electronic pen pal to Rider and to me. Ostensibly a flirtatious pen pal in Rider's case, but with no plans of meeting up, nor schedule/budget space to do so in the foreseeable future, in the pen pal realm she seems to remain. So that gave me some sort of framework for how to relate to her.

Rider, who has a terrible memory, didn't even remember her name before she came looking for him. He just remembered a too-young cute girl who he'd hung out with for a week or two and who'd taken him to a family BBQ where she'd implored him to awkwardly lie about his age to her mom. So they are starting basically from scratch. And I am starting totally from scratch, having no history with her whatsoever.

So what would I want to know about someone who would be peripherally in my life in a long-distance, not-in-person, friendly-but-minor degree, that would help me understand them and relate to them? What would I want to know about a penpal? What sorts of things had I asked Berger in my early letters to him?

After thinking on it for a while, I wrote her this morning, mentioning the pen pal concept, and then asked her some basic "getting to know you" questions: What do you do for work? What hobbies are you passionate about? Where did you go to school and what did you study? Have you always lived in Former State, or did you spend your early years somewhere else, or move around and eventually move back? Simple, inoffensive questions that will give me some ideas about who she is, what she's done, and how to relate to her. I told her I'd be happy to respond in kind—that I'm pretty much an open book.

Before I wrote it, I checked in with Rider. He hadn't mentioned her in a little while, but I wasn't sure if it was because he was worried that talking about her would upset me (since we'd had some turmoil over his texting her at inappropriate times), or whether they just hadn't been in touch as much. I didn't want to be offering heavier life involvement on my end if they were winding down and their connection was the reason I knew she existed.

He said they're still in touch but he hasn't been talking to her quite as much simply because she's been busy and doesn't always write him back in a timely manner. He said that regardless of where things go between them, he thinks it would be cool if I had my own independent friendship or penpalship or whatever with her. So I wrote and sent the message and now am waiting for a reply.

I'm pretty excited about this weekend because we have very little planned, for once. I am looking forward to some lazy downtime with Rider, and to getting a big enough chunk of work done that maybe I can have this project off my plate a little sooner.

Supposedly, Kristof and I were going to briefly hang out on Sunday just as friends, because I had a little food treat I'd meant to give him, and I'd let him borrow a food container the last time I saw him that I intended to get back. He was going to show me a cool market near where he lives.

Oona had also invited Rider and me to something near that same area that day (an all-day fair) so I texted Kristof yesterday asking him if—since we were hanging out as friends—it would be cool if I brought Rider along and he could meet him and we could all hang out at the market. That way I wouldn't have to go all the way back to our neighborhood (about an hour roundtrip) to pick Rider up for the fair. I haven't heard back from him yet.

I hope I didn't upset him with that request. The request sounds reasonable to me, since we'd had the conversation about actually wanting to be friends despite not being a romantic match. And I was asking if it would be OK, not telling him that that was how it had to be. Maybe he just didn't get the text? I'm going to give him another day or so to respond, then check back. I hope I didn't hurt his feelings; I did find him quite likeable and I always try to avoid hurting people. I do still want to have poly friends, even if they are people I am not interested in dating. I guess time will tell what the story is.

 

[Reverie]

The waters remain calm after last week's choppy moments. Rider is still sticking to what he said, and it doesn't seem to be chafing him in the slightest. I now have a lot more respect and trust for him than I did even before this stuff happened. I feel like I can now trust him to listen to me and consider my needs even when he is NRE-blinded and pussy-goggled (which is the term I have coined for that state he gets into of "person with vagina has shown interest in me and now I shall derp around not noticing anything else in the world").

Rita wrote me back about the pen pal thing and said that would definitely be something she's interested in. She said she loves to write, and she seemed surprised and flattered that I was taking an interest in her and in her backstory. I told her that I make a point of trying to befriend people that Rider is befriending, and that the pen pal thing seems like a good solution to the challenge of befriending someone who I will not be meeting in person any time soon. She hasn't written back yet with the answers, but I guess she's probably working on them.

Kristof wrote me back saying that he'd be happy to meet Rider (and Oona if she happens to come along). He apologized for taking long to respond, saying that he's had a really crazy week. So I'm happy that I do seem to actually be salvaging a friendship there, despite dating incompatibility.

I also may be crossing paths with Karina at the fair if we are there at the same time. I'd love for Rider to meet her. She seems like she'd be a great fit in the network of friends we're trying to build here. And if an attraction builds there, when I have the time to indulge it, then it does. I'm not putting any pressure on myself. I have let her know that I am dealing with a huge work project right now AND just started a new band (first practice on Sunday!) so my hangout time will be super sporadic. I figure as long as I keep open communication there, it's all good.

And now over to the weight-loss thread to report things...