A VERY BAD start!

[FallenAngelina]

Interesting, Bella - thank you. Sounds like your GF had an awful lot of insecure and fearful feelings but perhaps was struggling to do her best to please you. Usually what underlies "drama" is a huge well of insecurity. I was just curious what you meant when you referred to women who swing without drama.

 

[Bella999]

Interesting, Bella - thank you. Sounds like your GF had an awful lot of insecure and fearful feelings but perhaps was struggling to do her best to please you. Usually what underlies "drama" is a huge well of insecurity. I was just curious what you meant when you referred to women who swing without drama.

Well, I guess you answered the question. Women who DON'T have these crazy insecurities are the prized gems of the female species that I adore so much.
My wife is not insecure at all, and that is why I hold her in such high esteem regardless of her recent discretions.

I love a women who can have sex freely, not bring drama, and not have to feel deeply in love to open her legs for another man. So therefore, I am most attracted to "swinger" women.... at this point.

 

[Bella999]

Wife has promised to end the sexual relationship with him, and just be friends.
Swinging is on the side burner for now until she finds someone she is really attracted to.

The other guy cornered me yesterday to have "the talk" that HE wanted to have. If he wanted any hope of making this work, he said all the wrong things.
Whatever he should have said to me, he said the opposite. At this point, there is no way this would work for me. He is already getting jealous and somewhat resentful.

It could work if I was dealing with experienced people who are schooled and skilled in polyamory, but those are few and far between.

It will be interesting to see if their friendship can stay at arms length or if it will crash into another affair.

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"Whatever he should have said to me, he said the opposite."

Ewww ...

 

[Bella999]

Re:


Ewww ...

He argued that "swinging" is immoral and abusive. It lacks meaning and is damaging to a relationship. (It's ok to have sex with my wife though behind my back)

He said "I know your wife better than you do"
That didn't go over with me very well.

He said he wanted to be part of our relationship and that he could help me handle her. Not what I wanted to hear.

He said he is not conflicted with his Christian religion because giving in to temptation is just common behavior for sinning human beings.

He said my wife can't be trusted and blamed her for everything that happened.

So, yes, not a good start and not a good way to try to make amends and move things forward.

Compared to the so called awful swingers last weekend.... The female friend and the party stayed with us and talked through things with my wife till 4 am asking questions and listening carefully without a hint of judgment. Never took sides, just repeated back what she thinks she was hearing. She did bring up the fact that my wife has repeated the behavior of her mother, and that my wife may have a deep seeded need to have a sub in her life ..... which I thought was quite interesting. She was intelligent, thoughtful, called us both during the week and showed nothing but kindness and understanding. She is a die in the wool swinger and can't stand polyamory relationships. She has been in a few, mostly third wheel stuff with couples. "Never again" she said.

The "swinger" men were all well mannered, polite, clean, well dressed, respectful and very happy to see us back playing again.

 

[Bella999]

They still see one another every day. I don't see this connection they have going away any time soon. We all went to the carnival today, and they went on a ride together ( I chose not too). The whole thing feels like they are still hoping for me to change my mind and embrace this triad idea. I know one thing for sure ..... it will not be limited to a triad if that ever happens again.

I really don't like this whole thing very much.... although I don't have any reason to believe they are back being sexual. The thought will always be somewhere in the back of my mind.

 

[GreenAcres]

They still see one another every day. I don't see this connection they have going away any time soon. We all went to the carnival today, and they went on a ride together ( I chose not too). The whole thing feels like they are still hoping for me to change my mind and embrace this triad idea. I know one thing for sure ..... it will not be limited to a triad if that ever happens again.

I really don't like this whole thing very much.... although I don't have any reason to believe they are back being sexual. The thought will always be somewhere in the back of my mind.

I think you mean "V" rather than triad, since generally triad would imply that you are also involved romantically and sexually with him and I think it's fairly clearly that isn't a possibility.But, semantics aside...

So, essentially, they still have the emotional ties, which are what a large part of the problem seemed to be, but not the sexual ones, which I gather are generally less of an issue since you're good with her swinging?

Clearly, this is still winding out into left field. And, if they're still spending time together, let alone every day, then it's unrealistic to expect their emotions to cool. Spending time with someone your attracted to generally only strengthens ties. And, frankly, the "forbidden" part of affairs usually heightens emotions rather than cooling them. Just telling them that they can't feel that way won't work, because that isn't how feelings work.

I am not sure why you guys refuse to go get counseling from an alternative-lifestyle friendly professional. The issues your marriage has go far beyond whether or not poly becomes a thing either/both/neither of you wants to try. But, you seem to be resistant to any actual advice, even from people who've had many, many years of experience and who generally only have the goodwill towards other forum members and want to help. If you don't want poly (which is totally fine), and you're considering this relationship of your wife's an affair (which it sound like it is), you may want to also consider posting on a forum that deals with affairs, which will likely be more helpful in terms of strategies to deal with it. It's harder to find sites like that that are also swinger-friendly but not impossible, but most will recommend you give up all outside partners for quite some time while working on your own relationship, since sex with others can and often does distract from working on already-existing issues. Even alternative-lifestyle friendly therapists will often recommend that, but I know it's not something you want to hear and won't do at this point even if it would be very helpful.

At this point, I don't know what anyone else could possibly suggest that would be helpful to you. If you just want to vent, that is okay, and a better venue to do that without outside comment is the blogs section of the forum. Perhaps just being able to post what you want to say without outside input would be helpful for you.

I wish you both the best, and hope you can both find it in yourselves to take a step back from your own agendas to help each other, and your relationship, find a healthy way forward, whatever shape that takes..

 

[kdt26417]

Well Bella, he said some outrageous things to you, I don't know how to respond. It sounds like he's writing himself a blank check for all of his bad behavior (past and future!).

 

[Bella999]

I think you mean "V" rather than triad, since generally triad would imply that you are also involved romantically and sexually with him and I think it's fairly clearly that isn't a possibility.But, semantics aside...

So, essentially, they still have the emotional ties, which are what a large part of the problem seemed to be, but not the sexual ones, which I gather are generally less of an issue since you're good with her swinging?

Clearly, this is still winding out into left field. And, if they're still spending time together, let alone every day, then it's unrealistic to expect their emotions to cool. Spending time with someone your attracted to generally only strengthens ties. And, frankly, the "forbidden" part of affairs usually heightens emotions rather than cooling them. Just telling them that they can't feel that way won't work, because that isn't how feelings work.

I am not sure why you guys refuse to go get counseling from an alternative-lifestyle friendly professional. The issues your marriage has go far beyond whether or not poly becomes a thing either/both/neither of you wants to try. But, you seem to be resistant to any actual advice, even from people who've had many, many years of experience and who generally only have the goodwill towards other forum members and want to help. If you don't want poly (which is totally fine), and you're considering this relationship of your wife's an affair (which it sound like it is), you may want to also consider posting on a forum that deals with affairs, which will likely be more helpful in terms of strategies to deal with it. It's harder to find sites like that that are also swinger-friendly but not impossible, but most will recommend you give up all outside partners for quite some time while working on your own relationship, since sex with others can and often does distract from working on already-existing issues. Even alternative-lifestyle friendly therapists will often recommend that, but I know it's not something you want to hear and won't do at this point even if it would be very helpful.

At this point, I don't know what anyone else could possibly suggest that would be helpful to you. If you just want to vent, that is okay, and a better venue to do that without outside comment is the blogs section of the forum. Perhaps just being able to post what you want to say without outside input would be helpful for you.

I wish you both the best, and hope you can both find it in yourselves to take a step back from your own agendas to help each other, and your relationship, find a healthy way forward, whatever shape that takes..

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

Therapists I am sure can be hit or miss. The Cafe owner's wife is a relationship therapist. Quite ironic actually. My wife is not someone who takes advice. She is very caviler in her approach toward life…. and in most instances I admire her for that. We had a talk this morning and she assured me everything is fine and under control, and there will not be any more sex going on between them. So if that really is the case, I don't have a problem.
I am just not interested in this going down some other road where I am not in the loop or unilateral decisions are being made. This is my wife, and our marriage has it's agreements and understandings from day one. Swinging together here and there was agreed. We tried playing separately and those never worked out …. meaning they always ended up with some kind or arguing etc. I can't think of anytime we ever had issues with simple swinging.

I agree that Poly sounds great on paper. Everyone in love and getting along, being respectful etc. But other threads on this forum suggest otherwise. My own brushes with it… even living with two women for 8 months in a poly triad was a disaster. I'm not completely inexperienced here. I think people get caught up in the idealism or fantasy of it. They walk into it blind, ignorant and not properly prepared… then jump up and down when things don't go as planned. It's easy to only see the one in a thousand that work out and ignore the 999 that left everyone in tears and emotional shambles.

I just want to live a simple peaceful life, void of unnecessary emotional drama for my wife and I, and also be able to enjoy some sexy erotic fun with others from time to time. I don't think that is too much to ask.

 

[Bella999]

Well Bella, he said some outrageous things to you, I don't know how to respond. It sounds like he's writing himself a blank check for all of his bad behavior (past and future!).

That is the thing.. you can't control what others say. Everyone is an expert in their own mind. My wife defends him constantly, doesn't seem to care that much about how I am feeling about all this. She does if I bring it up. She is not ever dismissive of what I say or feel. But she is really absorbed into everything about this guy and it just seems strange.

 

[IndieSolo]

I am a little confused - is it the artist guy or the cafe owner who is saying he knows your wife better than you do?


And I do believe it is more than 1 out of 1000 poly arrangements that are successful. Please try not to make such strong pronouncements against poly as if your limited experiences with it makes you an expert on every possible way it can be done. You prefer swinging - we get it!

The thing with message boards is that most people come to them to post about problems and get advice. You're not seeing the many people for whom poly works well because they are just getting on with their lives and people don't tend to post about their smoothly-running regular lives. And you forget that it s a relatively new way of relating that will have its bumps in the road as society becomes more accepting of and skilled in it.

 

[Bella999]

I am a little confused - is it the artist guy or the cafe owner who is saying he knows your wife better than you do?


And I do believe it is more than 1 out of 1000 poly arrangements that are successful. Please try not to make such strong pronouncements against poly as if your limited experiences with it makes you an expert on every possible way it can be done. You prefer swinging - we get it!

The thing with message boards is that most people come to them to post about problems and get advice. You're not seeing the many people for whom poly works well because they are just getting on with their lives and people don't tend to post about their smoothly-running regular lives. And you forget that it s a relatively new way of relating that will have its bumps in the road as society becomes more accepting of and skilled in it.

I'm just kidding about the 1 in 1000. I have no idea really. Not meant to be taken serious, but successful poly relationships seem to be as rare as pink unicorns.

Poly isn't new though.. is it? It's been written about for 1000's of years I think...

 

[Magdlyn]

I'm just kidding about the 1 in 1000. I have no idea really. Not meant to be taken serious, but successful poly relationships seem to be as rare as pink unicorns.

If you are only browsing in this forum, you are seeing people coming here asking for help with problems. Mostly people new to poly who are just struggling with the basic concepts, as you are.

There are quite a few blogs in the Blogging forum where people are doing OK with poly as a concept. Every relationship has its ups and downs, of course.

As NYCindie said, there are many polyamorous people who are doing fine, but they don't tend to post much, or even be on a forum such as this, which is geared towards working on problems. Personally, at present, I am not having any big problems with being a hinge in a V. I try to post on my blog just to show that. Just a regular life, having dates, hanging out, having fun, being supportive of my 2 partners and receiving support and pleasure in return.

My life isn't consumed with the bare basics of how to handle jealousy, fear of loss, time management and so on. I live with my poly gf of 7 years, she has a bf she sees 1-4 times a month, and I have a bf who I see twice a week. Since my gf travels 20 miles to visit her bf, and he is introverted, I haven't met him. They have been seeing each other close to 2 years. My bf of 5 months visits me at home, so he sees my gf almost every time he visits, they are friends, it's all good.

Poly isn't new though.. is it? It's been written about for 1000's of years I think...

Modern polyamory is actually quite new. When I started it in 1999, there was only one book on the subject, and no websites. Now there are probably a dozen books on the subject, and several websites.

Polygyny is of course, ancient, and has been practiced for thousands of years... but only in a patriarchal mindset where the women are owned by their husbands. A woman having another male lover was strictly taboo, since the patriarch didn't want to raise a child conceived from another man. A woman usually didn't have a choice in husbands, who was instead chosen for her by her own father and tribe, for political ties and economic exchange. Or just as breeders to give the man lots of sons to help with his work, or to go into battle to gain territory.

There is evidence a type of sexual behavior that was more fluid existed pre-patriarchy, where women had choice in partners and children were considered offspring of the tribe, not as being owned by their biological fathers. The book Sex Before Dawn goes into detail about that.

So, poly as presented here on this forum, and in the new books on the subject, began only recently as an outgrowth of feminism, where no one owns women and they are free to make their own choices.

17 years or so since this movement began. And approximately 3500 years since the patriarchy was firmly in place. No wonder there are kinks to be worked out!

 

[Tinwen]

Modern polyamory is actually quite new. When I started it in 1999, there was only one book on the subject, and no websites. Now there are probably a dozen books on the subject, and several websites.

Polygyny is of course, ancient, and has been practiced for thousands of years... but only in a patriarchal mindset where the women are owned by their husbands.

There might have been people behaving "poly" throughout the whole history (I imagine from what little I know, that the greeks and romans were rather free-minded, and that at the french court affairs were in the open and mistresses had quite some influence), but basically all has been more or less hidden and uncommon, and in cases where it was tolerated the models of behaviour were probably quite different (more based in wealth and might), and of course those people didn't leave us any resources.
So yes, modern polyamory is rather new and in minority, and we do lack role models.

 

[icesong]

I am just not interested in this going down some other road where I am not in the loop or unilateral decisions are being made. This is my wife, and our marriage has it's agreements and understandings from day one. Swinging together here and there was agreed. We tried playing separately and those never worked out …. meaning they always ended up with some kind or arguing etc. I can't think of anytime we ever had issues with simple swinging.

<snip>

I just want to live a simple peaceful life, void of unnecessary emotional drama for my wife and I, and also be able to enjoy some sexy erotic fun with others from time to time. I don't think that is too much to ask.

I thought you said your wife didn't actually *enjoy* simple swinging anymore? That, in and of itself, IS an issue, for her anyway.

Look, I've *been* a swinger, and if it wasn't for some of the downsides of that community I might still partake. I *can* do casual sex in that environment (quite frankly I've never quite figured out how to arrange it in "real life" but ::shrug:: haven't tried that hard either). I understand the appeal for you.

But the reality is that some of us DON'T value "simple peaceful lives" to the same degree - some of us WANT to feel things more intensely (and quite frankly sex with people I'm connected with is FAR more erotic than anything I *ever* did in my swinger days) and are willing to risk the "drama" you mention in order to have those intense connections.

Oh, and btw? my life isn't "consumed" with time management or jealousy issues either. My lover and my husband get along well, we have no intent to cohabitate, I like or don't know my husband's current partners/flirtations and am not jealous of them in the slightest. (Not that I've never been, but it's something you get past.)

 

[FallenAngelina]

..... successful poly relationships seem to be as rare as pink unicorns.

I'm still curious why you're here, Bella. If poly isn't for you, then poly isn't for you, yet you keep engaging us and maligning poly. Do you realize that ~20 very experienced poly people have interacted with you in this thread without once maligning "swinging?" There's no need to take an Us vs. Them stance here. Many of us have experience with both and all of us are open minded with no need to put down other relationship choices. Are you here because you are not truly confident in your own choices or are you here to learn and gain understanding from people who have experience with a relationship model with which you've had limited success?

 

[KC43]

I've posted about relationship problems on this forum, including in my blog... but they're problems with individual relationships, not with the polyamory aspect as a whole. i.e. problems between Hubby and me, or between Woody and me, or between my ex-boyfriends and me before they were exes... The only problems that had anything to do with polyamory were when I had to wrap my head around--and get over the insecurity of--Woody having other partners, since Hubby never has and my two ex-boyfriends didn't. And instead of letting my relationship with Woody deteriorate, I did the work and got over (mostly) the insecurity.

Any relationship has a reasonably equal chance of success or failure, regardless of whether it's closed, open/swinging, or has polyamory involved. I don't have "a polyamorous relationship," to be honest; I am polyamorous, and I have two relationships. To me--yes, I'm playing semantics again, it's my forte--"a polyamorous relationship" would be a relationship among three or more people, in which all people are involved with each other. The success of that type might be comparably rare, but then again, so is the existence of that type, I think, when compared to relationships where there are V's and W's and whatever other alphabet letters apply.

 

[Bella999]

I've posted about relationship problems on this forum, including in my blog... but they're problems with individual relationships, not with the polyamory aspect as a whole. i.e. problems between Hubby and me, or between Woody and me, or between my ex-boyfriends and me before they were exes... The only problems that had anything to do with polyamory were when I had to wrap my head around--and get over the insecurity of--Woody having other partners, since Hubby never has and my two ex-boyfriends didn't. And instead of letting my relationship with Woody deteriorate, I did the work and got over (mostly) the insecurity.

Any relationship has a reasonably equal chance of success or failure, regardless of whether it's closed, open/swinging, or has polyamory involved. I don't have "a polyamorous relationship," to be honest; I am polyamorous, and I have two relationships. To me--yes, I'm playing semantics again, it's my forte--"a polyamorous relationship" would be a relationship among three or more people, in which all people are involved with each other. The success of that type might be comparably rare, but then again, so is the existence of that type, I think, when compared to relationships where there are V's and W's and whatever other alphabet letters apply.

So then if someone is just dating... being sexual with several people, but not at the same time... makes them polyamorous? Or do you have to be in at least one committed relationship plus dating to be poly? The term seems very loosely used.

If I am dating Carol, Laura, Stef and Becky, I could call that an open X as long as they are all dating also. Four poly legs. If one or more of them wants me to commit to them, I just say no... I'm poly. Accept my poly or get over it. If they accept it, then they are agreeing to being poly also. But isn't this just dating? Like in college?

 

[Magdlyn]

So then if someone is just dating... being sexual with several people, but not at the same time... makes them polyamorous?

Not necessarily. If this person is not "in love" with their partners (however they define love), they may merely be "polysexual," not "polyamorous." Amor means love, poly means many. It's not a "sex" thing at all. There are some asexual polys. There are some polys who are "merely" sexual with one or more partners, but are also "in love with" one or more of the others. Personally I am in love with my nesting partner, fond of my bf, and then I have a casual FWB relationship with one other person.

Or do you have to be in at least one committed relationship plus dating to be poly?

Hell, no. Unlike most swinging, where you have to come to a party as a MF couple, there are plenty of "solo polys," who do not ID as part of a central couple at all. Solo polys are all over the board here. Many of them live alone, or with their kids.

If I am dating Carol, Laura, Stef and Becky, I could call that an open X as long as they are all dating also.

Even if one or more of your 4 lovers is not dating, YOU are still poly. One or more of your lovers may actually be monogamous. Or she might be poly but currently has no time or energy for another partner. Or she just hasn't found anyone good to date lately.

Poly relationship does NOT mean a MF couple who are both in relationship with the same person in "a triad." Poly isn't exactly always a "relationship" Polyamory just means you, as an individual, have the ability and make the choice to love more than one, with the knowledge and consent of all parties concerned. You may ID as a polyamorous person, or you may feel it's a choice.

Four poly legs. If one or more of them wants me to commit to them, I just say no... I'm poly. Accept my poly or get over it.

Depends on what you mean by "commit." What do you mean? Have a schedule where you always meet Tuesday for lunch and have an overnight on Saturday? Move cities to be closer together, but get your own places? Move into a rental together? Buy a house? Get married? Go mono? Some formerly mono (or couple-centric swingers) firmly believe commitment means going steady, and being MONO. But in the poly world, commitment does NOT mean being monogamous together.

When I was divorced and newly single, I met my gf almost right away. We really clicked. We didn't say, "Now we are committed to each other." We just loved spending lots of time together, so we did. We both also wanted to spend time with another lover or lovers, or our platonic friends. So we did!

After 3 years, we did move in together. But we are still actively polyamorous!

If they accept it, then they are agreeing to being poly also. But isn't this just dating? Like in college?

It's kind of like "just dating." But generally the understanding is, that a young person is practicing their interpersonal skills in dating, and enjoying the variety, but only for a while. The understanding is, they will eventually "settle down with Mr/Ms Right." If one is poly, there is no Ms/Mr Right that one is seeking. There may be quite a few Ms/Mr Right nows, who come and go... and we let them. Eventually there might be two or three Mr/Ms Rights. We do have some members here in stable Vs. A female with 2 guys (one of whom might be her legal husband), seems to be the most common. They may or may not all live together. They may or may not be "closed" Vs.

In conclusion, there are as many ways to do poly as there are people doing it.

 

[Dagferi]

I am poly both my husbands are monogamous. They only desire one loving/romantic and sexual partner at a time. They don't become poly through osmosis.

I could decide to have a monogamous relationship with one partner. I would still be poly but just in a monogamous relationship. I have the ability to have romantic loving and in my case sexual relationships with more than one man.

Poly doesn't have to include sex and just because someone can have multiple sex partners if they can only love one individual at a time they are polysexual not polyamorous.