Age Old Question

It could have to do with the dominating religion here, or the small town culture, or maybe just how common cheating is. Family and friends just assume that if you have good friends, you're sleeping with them. We are in our twenties, our better friends are our age but have moved away or are off at college now. Our acquaintances range from 20-80.
I don't think she's jealous so much as she's told that she should be.
Leetah, that pretty well describes the gatherings here.
 
Tinwen,
Yes, that is pretty accurate. Close friends of the opposite sex and any alone time with such friends is considered a violation or threat to monogamy by most people I know, and is rather shamed by both our families.
 
Smalltownoutcast said:
Here's what I'm considering proposing:
We not discuss poly for 6 months.
At that 6 month mark, we will revisit the conversation, but not necessarily make any decisions.
In the mean time, I will request that I can have female friends and make sure that they are only friends.
I will ask her to read at least part of "more than two" during that six months. I will also ask if she has any requests or concerns.
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Smalltown, I get you feel your freedom too restricted in your relationship now.
I suggest will suggest thinking about it in a slightly different way.

I'm sorry to say, but if I was your wife and didn't want to open - your plan feels pressuring to me. I'm tensing up when I read it.
Six months to develop close friendships, and then what? You ask for more? Nope. Tensing up. Defensive.

I think it would be good, to entertain the idea really without bias, if you could reassure your wife, that you are never ever going to pressure her to actually opening up, if she's not into it. It's actually going to increase your chances of opening up some day, but that means getting comfortable with the possibility, that she really isn't into it, which is kind of paradoxical. However I think if you could reassure your wife that you're really not pressuring her, she could read the book. However, asking her to "allow" female friends goes against the intention of reassuring her. I would not be doing both at the same time - it's like asking her to embark on the journey before she's decided about the journey.

I think there are really two, or three different things here.
1) Having a "less restricted" model of monogamy. Getting to a place of not feeling shame or jealousy or fear towards having female friends. This may however include respecting monogamy, exercising self-control and cutting contact if you see yourself falling in love.
2) Getting comfortable with the other feeling what they feel, including sexual attraction and/or romantic feelings. Getting comfortable actually speaking about those with your wife, not having tabu topics. Not judging the other for having feelings. Having a freedom of expression and opinion - without actually acting on it.
3) Considering polyamory - actually allowing sexual contact.

Please think about this: Could you be comfortable with just having step 1, or 1 and 2? Do they already feel liberating enough to you? Given your background, only one year since you gave up your religion, step 2 might take some time to achieve. This is work for both you and your wife. I don't think you are actually comfortable with you yourself experiencing attraction.

When I read your motivations, except for the "I don't want to fight sexual attraction" sentence, I thought a less restricted monogamy may be enough for you, if you decide it is.
I also think the sexual attraction thing could be actually helped by increasing the intimacy with your wife. I think you can learn to transfer some of your sexual feelings towards others to a more general level (they are your! feelings after all! they have in fact little to do with the other person ;)) and live them with your wife.
Could this be the goal for you and your wife?

I think polyamory could come later. Like, five years later or something like that. Yes, I'm suggesting you should just give the idea up for the time being - just my opinion of course.
You've done an amazing journey work together with your wife to break out of religion. You're capable to do develop in the same direction, and that is so great. But I think it would be jumping ahead of things to actually leap into polyamory. Keep up the self work you've been doing to shed old beliefs. Develop your open mindedness and your comfort with yourself. Then? When your actually comfortable with feelings, with sexuality, with building your own life as you please? When you are are both more ok with your own strengths and weaknesses, with being independent on each other? The gate will open to actually consider the practicalities of polyamory without defensiveness, or to divorce and seek your own way.

Am I being understandable?
 
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Tinwen,
That's why I ran my plan by y'all first. I think you're very right. I will discuss 1. And 2. with her and not put any pressure on about full poly. Instead of a future date for her to be concerned about, I will remain in very open communication but I don't think I'll be feeling so much need for poly while working on 1. and 2. with her.
Thank you for your encouraging words! I feel much better about talking to her and the whole situation.
 
Smalltownoutcast said:
CTF, I really appreciate your input. Here's what I'm considering proposing:
We not discuss poly for 6 months.
At that 6 month mark, we will revisit the conversation, but not necessarily make any decisions.
In the mean time, I will request that I can have female friends and make sure that they are only friends.
I will ask her to read at least part of "more than two" during that six months. I will also ask if she has any requests or concerns.
Click to expand...

Any time. I know that sometimes what I have to say isn't all that poly-positive, but I do think that some perspective on the potential fallout is necessary.

As for your plan, there's some I agree with, and some that seems a little unrealistic.

Not discussing poly for 6 months is all well and good, but the problem is, it's easier said than done. Both partners will agree to it in the beginning, but it tends to dominate each other's mind all throughout that time period. And usually, each partner is hoping that during that time, the other will "come to his/her senses" She probably hopes you forget about the idea, and you probably hope she'll be on board. Finding out that this is the case after such a time period, just feels like you both picked up right where you left off, leaving the 6 month period a waste. Start small if there's going to be a poly talk ban period... Maybe a week or two. Beyond that, I would suggest that you talk about it as often as necessary, but place the restrictions on the amount of time at one sitting. For example If we get nowhere after an hour, we take a break and resume at another time.

I think that having female friends is perfectly acceptable. I know you feel it's taboo, but I am curious... Is this an actual rule between you & your wife? Or is it something that you two just sort of fell into based on outside assumptions? Because if it's just assumed, then there's not much to discuss. But like you said, make sure it's strictly platonic. And of course, you must be fair & allow her male friends if she so chooses.

As for the reading assignment... It's fine if you want to suggest reading it. But don't ask her to read it during any sort of "put the talk on hold" period. She will likely see this 6 month period as a break from having to think about it, and hoping that you'll forget about it. Remember... The mono partner (in most cases) is not going to be interested in facilitating opening up the marriage. You might as well give her a book on how to amputate her own foot. The only way she'll read it, and give it serious consideration, is if she's making the choice to read it in order to understand the poly mindset... And even then, she's likely to find much that she disagrees with. I have read more than two, and it did nothing for me. Sorry to the poly folks out there, but I did not find it at all compelling. And sex at dawn was even worse... But I digress.

If you think the book will help, then mention it to her. Tell her that it may help her to understand where you're coming from, and go from there. Give her time & space, and if she reads it, fine, if not, fine. But even too much pressure to read a book, will give her a built in bias against it. Just be patient with her. Learn what you want, and what you're willing to sacrifice for it. And she will do the same.
 
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CTF said:
...make sure it's strictly platonic.
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The social prohibition exists because many people think that this is not even possible. The assumption is that emotional and/or intellectual intimacy between a man and a woman will always lead to sexual attraction and the next natural step. The assumption is that men and women cannot "just be friends."

I live in suburban NYC and I know several men who would know exactly what smalltown is talking about regarding the unspoken prohibition against female friends. In my experience, it's not a religious thing at all, it's more of a "this is how it's done" thing. This unspoken prohibition leads to all or nothing in m/f relationships: either you're monogamously involved or you're not close at all. And frankly, there are a lot of secret m/f relationships because an open m/f close friendship that is not the socially recognized monogamous relationship would not be tolerated at all. It's much bigger than a wife "forbidding" her husband to have female friends. It's a wide spread social expectation that if you're partnered, especially if you're married, you just do not have close friendships with the opposite sex, end of story.

I had no idea how wide spread this attitude is until I moved to the burbs. Of course, it's not like this everywhere, but it's common knowledge in many social milieux, not just religious ones, that opposite sex close friendships are verboten, certainly for people who are married.
 
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Hi Smalltownoutcast,

I guess my advice is to say to your wife that you want to talk with her about polyamory, but that you'll wait to ask until your youngest child is at least five years old. This way she doesn't feel like she's losing your support during a critical time of parenting.

Though even given that, I think it's likely that you and your wife will end up divorcing over this. Both of you have opposing feelings that are too strong for a compromise. Hopefully I'm wrong about that ... :(

With regards,
Kevin T.
 
FallenAngelina said:
The social prohibition exists because many people think that this is not even possible. The assumption is that emotional and/or intellectual intimacy between a man and a woman will always lead to sexual attraction and the next natural step. The assumption is that men and women cannot "just be friends."

I live in suburban NYC and I know several men who would know exactly what smalltown is talking about regarding the unspoken prohibition against female friends. In my experience, it's not a religious thing at all, it's more of a "this is how it's done" thing. This unspoken prohibition leads to all or nothing in m/f relationships: either you're monogamously involved or you're not close at all. And frankly, there are a lot of secret m/f relationships because an open m/f close friendship that is not the socially recognized monogamous relationship would not be tolerated at all. It's much bigger than a wife "forbidding" her husband to have female friends. It's a wide spread social expectation that if you're partnered, especially if you're married, you just do not have close friendships with the opposite sex, end of story.

I had no idea how wide spread this attitude is until I moved to the burbs. Of course, it's not like this everywhere, but it's common knowledge in many social milieux, not just religious ones, that opposite sex close friendships are verboten, certainly for people who are married.
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Oh trust me, I'm well aware of the social implications. I was just asking him if this was a specific rule with him & his wife, or if it was due to the social, unspoken prohibition. Now, if it's the former, that's where a serious discussion about negotiating comes into play. But if they're both just worried about what the neighbors think, but not specifically against it, then that shouldn't be such a tense conversation among them.

I've also known people with that sort of a boundary. Oddly enough, as staunch of a mono as I am, I have never had this problem. I do happen to believe that men & women can have platonic friendships.
 
Hey there, Smalltown:

First of all, I agree with what most people here are saying. You need to examine your reasons for wanting to go poly, and make sure your wife is really (really, REALLY) on board with it before you go any farther. Pressuring someone to accept poly is probably the best way to never "go poly," at least not ethically.

But what I really wanted to add is that the "breaking free of religion" part complicates things. Since you just started this whole non-religious thing a few months ago, there is still a lot to work of emotional work that needs to be done to adapt to your new worldview, even if you've reached an intellectual conclusion. Some of the hardest pieces of religious baggage to shed are those concerning relationships. As a man, you're going to have to deal with the fruits of toxic masculinity: possessiveness, paternalism, and ownership/entitlement. Add in all the gendered assumptions about sex, intimacy, and the roles of men and women, and baby, you got a baggage stew goin'.

You may already be working on these things. But they've been drilled into you by 20+ years of social conditioning, and they're not that easy to undo, even if your mind is in the right place. I became an atheist about six years ago, and I still catch myself referring back to Christian influences in my deepest feelings about my wife, her relationships, and our relationship. I have a much easier time thinking through them now, but it is *hard work* to get to that point.

We breached the topic of poly around the same time we became atheists, but it took several years of discussion and emotional/intellectual development before we finally decided we were in a place to embrace poly, about a month ago. The atheism stuff is less important to us now, but we use similar mental techniques to try and combat the social capital our mono-or-nothing culture has built up.

TL;DR: you have enough work to do to shed the psychological baggage of religion. Adding all the ultra-confusing and difficult poly-feelings to the mix may complicate things even more. You're going to come face to face with your insecurities, fears, and negative conditioning in a dark alley with one hand tied behind your back. Be prepared for that.

Also, am I correct in remembering that you're around Austin? If so, Austin has a thriving atheist community, the Atheist Community of Austin (clever name, folks). I'd recommend looking into them if you're new to town, or if you're a new non-believer. There are also tons of poly and poly-friendly people involved with the ACA, so they'd probably be a good resource for you.
 
I don't feel there's anything wrong with deselecting close friends on the basis of gender. Out here in the boondocks, any social gathering will demonstrate the whole range from 100% to 50/50, & I doubt it's been consciously observed by anyone but me.

But I'm a little uncomfortable with polyamory somehow being proposed as a substitute for having the discipline to not go completely nuts from talking to an attractive person. The only way to develop skills at not being silly is to practice not being silly, & that kinda requires being in proximity with someone

I've worked closely with many women I could've been happy pursuing & possibly becoming sexual with... but, really, given opportunity I wouldn't be surprised to find that there's a million or more women who'd fit that criterion.

And having studied a couple centuries of U.S. sexual mores, one recurring pattern is that things explicitly banned have a way of happening anyway, & then everyone acts all shocked. Ban contact with the other gender, under the pretext of keeping the heart (&/or penis) from straying, then people aren't allowed to examine (or sometimes even think about) the underlying motivations & thus move up to learning positive coping strategies. Instead, they have deeply secretive sexual encounters, & marriages end suddenly & perhaps violently.

Polyamory isn't a magical substitute for managing a zipper problem.
 
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Ravenscroft said:
But I'm a little uncomfortable with polyamory somehow being proposed as a substitute for having the discipline to not go completely nuts from talking to an attractive person. The only way to develop skills at not being silly is to practice not being silly, & that kinda requires being in proximity with someone
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Oh thank you this is something I wasn't able to pinpoint earlier in this discussion.
 
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