Opening marriage or breaking up?

[Tinwen]

As it is, I don't like the idea of living on my own, I have this need to have someone at home, and I have the need to sleep in a bed with a woman I am attracted to. That's why being totally single is not something I've considered so far, even if I live in a big city where middle aged single guys are spoilt because of the male/female imbalance.

Have you been ever in your adult life living alone?

I am afraid this is going to sound arrogant and maybe it is, because there certainly are some assumptions about "how it's done". But I want to add my voice to the concern of others.

I do understand that you don't like living alone, that you want to come "home" to someone. It is beautiful to have a loving bond and closeness, which is manifested in meeting everyday and sharing the mundane.
But to want someone so badly that you don't consider living alone after the breakup? You seem to be acting out of a place of fear. Probably a fear to meet yourself with your insecurities and depressions, which often happens if you are alone.
I may be totally wrong, projecting, but I can see how the same fear would hold you in a bad marriage for such a long time.

In this case, moving in your gf would be just an outside fix, and kind of rude to her, because you don't act out of love but out of fear and would move in just about any attractive woman. She might rightfully feel pressured after a short time.

It's fine to avoid fears by seeking an outside fix sometimes , especially if it's not just a 'challenge' but 'terror' thing, that you are aware of but don't feel like tackling, and I certainly won't judge you if you do avoid this one. But since maybe you are on the way to realize it now? I think you could have a look at it, take the challenge and transcend it. You will be rewarded by more confidence in yourself.

You seem to be getting on track, and I wish you luck.

 

[polygone]

Again, um, no. Actually: warning klaxons.

You "have a need" to sleep with someone sexy on the regular. She wants her participation in any relationship to be totally optional, a product of her untrammeled free choice in the moment. You are not long-term comparible. And the long-term is like a month. She's not a body pillow. She says so over and over. You want a sexy body pillow, not this complicated, thrill-seeking woman.

Live alone, man. Get your own space. Invite your SO as freely as you like, and keep in mind that she reacts badly to commitments. Make your own space and build your new life with care and deliberation.

Also, where are your kids in this? What are your custody agreements? Moving a girlfriend into a new space you also share sometimes with your children should also be approached with concern for the kids.

I know living alone is not fun for everyone - I really, massively, know. But you've already experienced living with the wrong partner. Do the living alone. Let yourself hate it, but compare it extensively to what you had, and think carefully about what you actually want.

Put like that, my choices indeed sound pretty bad. I am not saying 'I need a sexy body pillow, I'll move in with her no matter how bad a decision it is'. I am just explaining why my initial thought is to consider that. But I value the advice from the community and will definitely tread with care rather than jumping from one dysfunctional relationship to another one.

I would also point out that it turns out that we've been seeing each other an average of 3 times a week for a year now, including some times where we were together for an entire week-end without any dull moment or even the slightest drama, so I think we're reasonably compatible, but of course time will tell.

As for repeating my mistakes, I think there are 2 aspects that I hope will help prevent that: (1) the poly setup makes things much smoother, it's not an 'all-or-nothing' situation where any of my hobbies or acquaintances are subject to my partner's approval / endorsement, which inevitably causes issues, and creates taboos about what I can even contemplate to find my personal balance (2) the kids have been the major reason to stay with my current partner way longer than otherwise. This is not going to happen again as mentionned.

As for custody, the model I am contemplating is that in the earlier stage, I will be living in the city during the week, and coming over to the suburbs during the w-e to be with the family - the house is large enough to let my wife to decide if she wants to share a bedroom or not, but either way there are no logistical constraints to co-parenting. At the moment I am working late hours and I do not see much of my children during weekdays anyway so the change will not be massive.

This will isolate whatever relationship I have w my gf from my kids, and as time goes, we'll see if the 2 are fit to be merged. Given that my wife has expressed she will not tolerate any ambiguity in our relationship (e.g. an open relationship), she may soon or later decide to have an exclusive partner of her own. Kids are only a couple of years away from college so hopefully will suffer less from having a non-conventional family setup than they would have a few years ago.

Previous comments on this thread mentionned how my wife may be less afraid of losing me, and more of losing the conventional family setting we have. I do not have any objection to keep granting her that. I do enjoy having common friends over during the week-end, going to the community center, seeing my kids and even watching TV shows or doing crosswords in bed with my wife. I just feel that I want to be able to have another partner with whom I am totally in sync intellectually and sexually, who respects my autonomy, and who is more capable of having fun and occasionally do crazy stuff than my wife will ever be.

 

[polygone]

Have you been ever in your adult life living alone?

Actually I may have misrepresented things. I lived with friends when I started college, and the only woman I've ever lived with is my wife. But at some point during college I lived alone for about 2 years.

When I say I can't stand being alone, it's mostly I can't stand *not* having a girlfriend. During college I went out with just a handful of girls, in very long stretches (1y to 2y at a time), and they would be staying at my place several nights a week. But when breaking up, I'd usually be back with someone after less than 2 months. The thing is that, at the time, I was financially constrained, so going from 'having a gf' to 'moving in w a gf' was a massive move. Also, I was living in a small town, so not living together was not a major hurdle to having a relationship.

It just turns out that 2 decades later, I spontaneously would find it weird to have a gf, and not live with her. Especially if things are so much NSA + we are in a big city where currently it takes nearly an hour in between our homes.

I doesn't take a degree in psychology to notice a pattern where I settle extremely fast and easily, and that's clearly the source of many issues. I think overall I am still pretty lucky that most of my exes are really great and attractive girls with whom I had terrific moments, including my wife. But I know I need to work on this to avoid making sub-optimal choices out of insecurity or fear of being alone.

 

[BlueShoes]

That custody agreement you're contemplating is a fantasy.

Any lawyer worth paying will tell your wife that this thing you're suggesting by way of custody is a bad idea. In a divorce, she'd be best off to protect her feelings, her privacy, and her space, and to limit contact with you so that she can process her feelings and move on. (You'd be well-advised to do the same.) Even if not, the entire thing depends on the goodwill of a woman who has a solid reason to be really mad at you.

The compatibility you're experiencing with your girlfriend is, I am sure, quite lovely, but it doesn't indicate that she'd be happy living with you in the long-term. You're expressing a need (to sleep with a welcoming and attractive girl every night) that she is TELLING you she can't meet. You're brushing right past that. This woman is saying, in clear language, that you repeat here, that she is anarchic poly, wants no commitments, only wants to do what she feels moved to do in the moment. And you are looking at the fact that, over the past year, she has felt moved to spend a lot of time with you, and concluding that you can, therefore, ignore her actual statements, and assume that she will always want what she wants now.

I live without a romantic partner. I hate it, but I cope. I have the kids for a full week every other week, and my ex enters my apartment by invitation only. I drive an hour across town to see my boyfriend, or he drives it to see me. Of course closer would be better, but we each have commitments to people more important than each other. If my boyfriend decides he'd rather not drive across town, he's free to leave me and find someone more conveniently located. I could do the same. No one's kids can't hit up the personal ads and find new parents, so they get the first cut.

 

[polygone]

That custody agreement you're contemplating is a fantasy.

That's your opinion - I know several people who've done something like that, not least my own parents, and that worked pretty well. It was just a conventional way to work around having an official open relationship. This is where the idea came from, and if, as some poster say, what my wife is really after is to keep some of the security of being a family more than having a romantic partner, then she may be fine with that.

As it stands I've not yet discussed a timeline on the separation given how she is trying to prevent it at all costs, but when I make it clear that it is not negotiable, we'll see what part of our relationship she wants to keep.

 

[Spork]

I'm not sure why you keep throwing "attractive" out there. You realize that is a highly subjective thing for you to say, right?

Anyways.

The point I, and others I think, wanted to make was that:

Enjoying one another tremendously under present day circumstances =/= enjoying one another as living companions.

It's a big game changer, moving in together. For any relationship. I've actually speculated that it ruined what could otherwise have been a decent relationship...some people need their space. Your girlfriend might be one of them. From the sounds of it. Unfortunately, she does not have that luxury now. So maybe living with you would be better than living with the partner she is unhappy with.

Have you talked to her about her becoming your Primary? And what, exactly that means?

Let me share a quick story... A man I dated who became part of a quad I was with for about a year until July, considered me his Primary, despite many conversations we had that I thought were to the contrary. I didn't agree to a Primary relationship with him. I wasn't even doing hierarchy at that time. In my mind, even though my quad was me and him and a married couple, all three of those partners were equal to me. In my mind and heart and what kind of investment I was willing at any time to make, none of them was ranked first, second, or third. And yet I heard the men talk about primaries and secondaries, like that had to be part of the thing for some reason. I was pretty clear on my non-hierarchical solo poly wishes, but I'm not sure that this man in particular ever took what I said very seriously.

I am no longer seeing those partners, and a big reason, aside from some logistical issues that are the biggest reason, is a communication gap I felt existed there.

I'm saying you need to be upfront with this gal about what exactly you are hoping to do. And why. I still suggest patience and caution...but part of that is just my nature. I don't like to jump into things without thinking them through in great detail.

 

[polygone]

I'm saying you need to be upfront with this gal about what exactly you are hoping to do. And why. I still suggest patience and caution...but part of that is just my nature. I don't like to jump into things without thinking them through in great detail.

Regarding her choices, the only reason she is stuck with her current partner is not because she could not move out. Financially that would not be a problem at all. She's just super adverse to the idea of living on her own, and wants someone to live with. Not that there are many alternative candidates besides me, but she's the one who brought up the possibility a long time ago that we live together - when I was not ready at all to separate from my wife. So I really don't feel I am forcing anything at all.

As to being 'upfront', I totally agree that people should be honest with each other, and I really have no hidden agenda or expectations other than just seeing how things go if we live together. In my experience, every time I've tried being specific about how I saw things, it created more clashes than necessary, because I was crossing a bridge before getting there. The thing we do agree on is that we want to live together, we like spending time together and we are currently not seeing each other as much as we'd like. Whether it then needs to be considered as a 'primary relationship', or even be considered as love is just material for arguing more than anything else.

Overall, I am not trying to change her philosophy, but there is a massive lag between her words (saying she wants to be independent, unattached, focus on having fun more than commitment, radically poly) and how she acts (i.e. she wants to hang out with me all the time, will give up some parties with friends to spend more time w me, will text all day long when we're not together, when we're together she's very loving, she's up for anything, and she even criticizes my hookups as if she were jealous of them). So, as much as I respect her, and respect her wishes, I think her actions speak louder than her words, and there's no need to formalize things verbally, as it might ruin the magic that we have.

 

[FallenAngelina]

As for custody, the model I am contemplating is that in the earlier stage, I will be living in the city during the week, and coming over to the suburbs during the w-e to be with the family...

Just tossing in my support that this is indeed not a fantasy and can be a wonderful, peaceful alternative to the typical his place/her place model of divorce. My (soon to be ex) husband and I have a similar agreement. He comes to the family house for frequent visits and sleepovers - has his own bedroom . As our individual and separate lives continue to evolve, the children have a great deal of continuity and are not schlepped from house to house. This arrangement requires a good dose of generosity and good will on the part of the parents, since both will be dating or romancing others, but it allows the separating spouses to have other romantic partners without turning those partners into quasi step parents prematurely. And it gives the kids access to both parents and stability and they don't feel literally split, as is the case in most custody arrangements. All divorces need not be an emotional battlefield. Yes, we have feelings to process but I find there is plenty of privacy for that. With this transitional set-up, divorce feels more like an expanding family rather than a broken home.

 

[BlueShoes]

Regarding her choices, the only reason she is stuck with her current partner is not because she could not move out. Financially that would not be a problem at all. She's just super adverse to the idea of living on her own, and wants someone to live with. Not that there are many alternative candidates besides me, but she's the one who brought up the possibility a long time ago that we live together - when I was not ready at all to separate from my wife. So I really don't feel I am forcing anything at all.

As to being 'upfront', I totally agree that people should be honest with each other, and I really have no hidden agenda or expectations other than just seeing how things go if we live together. In my experience, every time I've tried being specific about how I saw things, it created more clashes than necessary, because I was crossing a bridge before getting there. The thing we do agree on is that we want to live together, we like spending time together and we are currently not seeing each other as much as we'd like. Whether it then needs to be considered as a 'primary relationship', or even be considered as love is just material for arguing more than anything else.

Overall, I am not trying to change her philosophy, but there is a massive lag between her words (saying she wants to be independent, unattached, focus on having fun more than commitment, radically poly) and how she acts (i.e. she wants to hang out with me all the time, will give up some parties with friends to spend more time w me, will text all day long when we're not together, when we're together she's very loving, she's up for anything, and she even criticizes my hookups as if she were jealous of them). So, as much as I respect her, and respect her wishes, I think her actions speak louder than her words, and there's no need to formalize things verbally, as it might ruin the magic that we have.

When two forms of communication from one person are at odds, that's a sign you need to go slowly, evaluate with care, and seek clarification. Not a sign that you need to avoid questions to preserve the magic.

If OP hasn't discussed his custody plans with the woman who would prefer not to get a divorce in the first place, they are fantasies. They may be practical and useful plans for someone, they may even be working great those other people. But in OPs case, where his wife doesn't seem to be entirely clear yet that YES, he really wants a divorce? OP needs a plan B that doesn't rely so heavily on his ex's goodwill.

 

[polygone]

Just tossing in my support that this is indeed not a fantasy and can be a wonderful, peaceful alternative to the typical his place/her place model of divorce. My (soon to be ex) husband and I have a similar agreement. He comes to the family house for frequent visits and sleepovers - has his own bedroom . As our individual and separate lives continue to evolve, the children have a great deal of continuity and are not schlepped from house to house. This arrangement requires a good dose of generosity and good will on the part of the parents, since both will be dating or romancing others, but it allows the separating spouses to have other romantic partners without turning those partners into quasi step parents prematurely. And it gives the kids access to both parents and stability and they don't feel literally split, as is the case in most custody arrangements. All divorces need not be an emotional battlefield. Yes, we have feelings to process but I find there is plenty of privacy for that. With this transitional set-up, divorce feels more like an expanding family rather than a broken home.

Your experience is very comforting - thanks for sharing

 

[polygone]

If OP hasn't discussed his custody plans with the woman who would prefer not to get a divorce in the first place, they are fantasies. They may be practical and useful plans for someone, they may even be working great those other people. But in OPs case, where his wife doesn't seem to be entirely clear yet that YES, he really wants a divorce? OP needs a plan B that doesn't rely so heavily on his ex's goodwill.

Before I came to this forum 2 months ago, separation, not to mention divorce, were absolutely not something I was ready for.

I am not planning to rely on my wife's goodwill, I am just explaining the kind of arrangement that I think would minimize friction, as FallenAngelina highlighted. As for plan B I am not too concerned, if there's something I know I can trust my wife for, it's to place the kids welfare about everything else (which is part of why our marriage suffered so much, our relationship was subordinated to all that). So the custody arrangement would be that she'd be with the kids during the week, and I would get them during the week-end. Of course in that case I will need to rethink the plan of moving with the gf.

 

[BlueShoes]

Having you in her living space all weekend doesn't sound to me like it minimizes friction. Rather the opposite. It's a good arrangement for couples who divorce with minimal anger - which does happen, but which is very rare. You say she wants to stay married, and she's attached to presenting a certain image of family, in a way that involves marriage. This is astronomically unlikely to be a low anger situation.

 

[opalescent]

... Overall, I am not trying to change her philosophy, but there is a massive lag between her words (saying she wants to be independent, unattached, focus on having fun more than commitment, radically poly) and how she acts (i.e. she wants to hang out with me all the time, will give up some parties with friends to spend more time w me, will text all day long when we're not together, when we're together she's very loving, she's up for anything, and she even criticizes my hookups as if she were jealous of them). So, as much as I respect her, and respect her wishes, I think her actions speak louder than her words, and there's no need to formalize things verbally, as it might ruin the magic that we have.

I have to chime in with the folks pointing out that you are currently living in fantasy land. I do think you will be lucky to have an amicable divorce. People who are forced to give up status they highly value, like your wife's view of marriage and raising children, rarely act well when being forced to give that up. A divorce would lower her status. People at risk of losing their entire self-worth in one blow do not generally react well, positively, or lovingly to that situation. I hope this is the exception but nothing you have said indicates to me that you are not in for some very rocky times.

Also I quoted the above because 1) nothing you state as her actions conflicts with her stated desire to remain primary-free. Those are all actions of someone who enjoys spending time with you, who values you, but none of those things indicate she wants to move in with you and be a primary type partner.

2) Not wanting to talk about it, 'ruin the magic', really means "I'm in fantasy land and do not want to ruin it by bringing up reality.' Living with a partner who doesn't want to be a primary, who is operating on assumptions never discussed, where you are operating on assumptions never discussed - that will kill any magic right there.

4) Writing that you respect her, doesn't actually mean you respect her. None of her actions means she necessarily wants a primary relationship, or a primary relationship with you. You are interpreting her actions via your own prism of how relationships 'work'. You are refusing to truly listen to and understand what she has put out there very plainly. You are behaving like you know her better than she knows herself. This will harm you and your relationship with her. You are not able to see her as she actually is. This will kill your relationship sooner rather than later.

 

[breathemusic]

Regardless of whether or not she wants to live with you, I don't think you should live with her. If nothing else, it's not healthy for you to go from splitting up with your wife after a year of cheating to just immediately living with a partner who claims they are a relationship anarchist. What if you start dating other people and she DOES get jealous? (You indicated that she does make those sorts of comments already with people you hook up with) Is she going to have a problem with the women you have over? How are you going to feel if she get into huge NRE with someone else and wants them over very often in the shared apartment? How are your kids going to react to all of this?

There's all sorts of good reasons for you just get your own place. It's not like that would mean you couldn't have her over frequently if that's what you both want. But at least then it also leaves you with the OPTION to make changes if need be rather than being stuck sharing a lease if things don't go well.

 

[Tinwen]

Polygone, I read that a lot of your thoughts and opinions are fluid now and changing with everyday, as you're decision for divorce is so new. I think that's understandable and I you're making progress.

I think we are now jumping ahead of things by speculating if you and gf are compatible to live together.
You haven't talked to wife about divorce yet. You probably didn't talk to gf either. A lot of new understanding will arise in the process of doing so.

It seems like everything is in a rush. It's not. Take your time.

 

[polygone]

Update... again...

So... even though I had set my objective to separate sometimes around Oct/Now, things happened.

I admitted my affair to my wife, mostly because she had been going through some texts on my phone (that were very well hidden) and were giving many clues.

Interestingly enough, my wife then said she suspected I had been sleeping around lately, and she 'kind of understood', but she was upset that I've seen someone steadily for over a year, as well as all the lying that went with it.

I would have expected her to go ballistic, but in fact, since I explained very clearly that I am done asking her for permissions to do things + I expressed I wanted to separate, she understood that there's little she can do to stop me and the atmosphere at home is really not that bad. This is remarkable given how often, in the past, she would give me the silent treatment for days in a row or other passive aggressive behaviors when we would have some minor arguments.

So for the last couple of weeks, I have been openly telling her when I am meeting my gf, which feels like a massive relief. I have even been coming back home later than previously, where I was coming at a time that still made it credible that I was working late.

My wife suggests we go to a therapy but nothing has been setup so far. Sex-wise I would have expected her to completely shut down given the betrayal, but, aside from maybe a week or so, she's now initiating things on that front more than ever, saying that I 'lit up something in her recently'. I really don't think she is doing that as an act out of fear of losing me. It really looks like she's discovered how sex can be fun and is just keen to explore that.

Where I am is that I feel that my wife has really taken me seriously. She's stopped being a control-freak. She has shown a huge amount of open-mindedness as well, in spite of her religious upbringing. We still have some issues to figure out, and we need to work out if she is ready for an open relationship in the long run. But overall I feel more than a relief, I feel a connection with her about being able to honestly share with her what I crave for, instead of living my fantasies behind her back. She is the love of my life and the mother of my kids, and I don't think that my desire to explore connections with others should push us to break up. I also feel that accepting my affair (albeit with moderate reluctance) is setting a very important precedent in recognizing that an affair should not be considered automatically as a threat to our marriage.

My relationship with my gf is doing great, she is really much more than a sex buddy, we enjoy doing many things together, some of which I could not do with my wife. So at the moment it's very hard to consider a break up with her, but at the same time, it's not clear how she could remain such an important part of my life (and of my time!) without weakening my marriage.

My wife has met her, they got along reasonably well, but she is absolutely against the idea that my gf would ever come under our roof. Add to that the big distances between my place, her place and our workplaces, it makes it that such a relationship is taking me away from home a lot.

So I guess what's going to determine the future is mostly going to be a function of the deeper discussions I will have with my wife (incl maybe a therapy), but at the very moment there is no real decision I feel compelled to take, as things are going reasonably smoothly on most front.

Will keep you posted. Thanks for letting me air my story.

 

[SNeacail]

Based on my own experiences - which sound very similar to your story. Your wife has known/suspected about your cheating for a LONG time. She has likely done some work on her own to prepare herself on how to deal with the situation as it stands. Take her up on the therapy with a poly friendly counselor.

Do NOT look to move the GF in or even bring it up to your wife again. If she changes her mind, she will likely bring it up, but don't count on it. It's not a bad thing to keep things fairly separate - this way they have their own safe place when they need it.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I'm wondering where all of these poly friendly counselors are (other than on this forum.) They get recommended here as if there's one on every street corner. Am I just so behind the times or....

 

[Spork]

I'm wondering where all of these poly friendly counselors are (other than on this forum.) They get recommended here as if there's one on every street corner. Am I just so behind the times or....

That has occurred to me, too. The only things I can think of with my town are:

1. We have at least one counselor who advertises herself as being very alternative, energy medicine, LGBTQ+ friendly, woo woo, won't judge you for pretty much anything, sort of person. She's the kind of lady who says "Namaste" to people. I think her website is purple, with rainbows. I'm thinking she'd be poly friendly as all get-out.

I imagine that if one were to find counselors that were reasonably progressive in attitude and open minded, while they won't have "poly friendly" in their bio, they might in fact BE poly friendly enough if given a chance.

2. The main thing here in Colorado Springs, would be the sort of therapist to NOT go to, which is one of the fundie right Christian ones. We've got several who advertise that perspective, that they're going to help you overcome your issues in the light of God and Jesus, and if you do a Google for "relationship counselors" or "marriage counselors" here in this area, you're going to find a whole bunch of faith based outfits. People for whom the idea and institution is a lot more important than the individuals participating in it.

I'm guessing they probably are not very poly friendly. Just a hunch.

 

[SNeacail]

Yeah - stay away from most of the faith based ones. Other than that, there is a list on this board someplace, but you interview the counselor first. If they don't know what poly is, they aren't likely to be poly friendly. Have an actual conversation with the therapist before committing to bringing up personal shit.