Miserable, Doing it wrong. No idea what to do next

Shaya's post is beautiful indeed. I also feel you do take feedback on board.
Remnant said:
I don't know what's........ reasonable. ... But there's a..... large gap between a week and 15y :/
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I remember reading somewhere on this forum, though I don't know how reliable it is, that smart couples take about a year to educate themselves and talk about their expectations for non-monogamy before even attempting to open up. And that is provided that both do want to open up.
There's also a saying going round this forum, that a poly relationship is "first year forming, second year storming, third year norming". Meaning there's a lot of hangups to be solved in the first two years. So that's about your timeline.
If your wife was not willing, it could of course be "never".

Miscommunication here. It wasn't giving up the girlfriend that was "giving over control". Initially We specifically gave control to my wife in an attempt to proceed at a pace that would make her most comfortable. It was not a success. The rules that were instigated were arbitrary, inconsistent, and changed.... frequently
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I can see how this is not working.
 
Ok, let me summarize and hopefully change to a different layer.
  • You've been told a number of times that starting an affair and throwing the poly bomb upon your wife like this was not kind or responsible. Let me move past this point.
  • The decision to choose GF over wife has been already made. While dismissed as NRE, to me it is an understandable decision, as what you are choosing is not just your gf, but also a lifestyle. Let me move past this point, as it is a given.
  • You're wife chose to stay over a (hopefully respectful) divorce. You do not feel you should be making this decision 'for her'.
  • You're GF has left supposedly to give you time to 'work it out'.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems your problems at hand are twofold.
1) Your GF, whom you have chosen, is now not happy about the relationship.
I would like some more input here, and maybe you need more input from the gf. What is her desired outcome with this break? What is it she is missing, and how would she like to see it solved? This seems to be the you <--> gf layer of communication.​

2) Your life is entwined with your wife who is less then happy about your choices.
I hear you want your wife around, but I assume there are conditions under which you want her around. If she is unkind towards GF? Well, you will have to address that by either not letting them interact at all or setting up some agreements. If her unhappiness is flowing over to you and bringing you down? Well, as terrible as this sounds, you could choose to divorce not for her, but for yourself, to be free to pursue the lifestyle you want.​
Am I getting it right? If not, could you please clarify your questions?
 
Remnant said:
I did in fact make the (for me) very difficult decision to choose my GF over my wife. I told my wife. I indicated our relationship was over, admitted full blame for it. And she chose to stay. She chose to remain with me, to begin a new non-monogamous relationship with me, while I was developing a relationship with this other woman.

She was distressed by it. It made her unhappy, but she chose to stay, to "adjust", to "make it work". I'm unconvinced I have the obligation, responsibility or indeed right to decide FOR her that that's unhealthy.
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I don't see where anyone is telling you to make decisions for your wife. If it's her choice to stay with you and, given time, come to terms with your desire to have another lover beside her, why are you throwing that back in her face?

She wants to make it work. I think you want it to work NOW, like magic; for her to somehow fully embrace polyamory after 3 months. What we are all telling you here is, that is not realistic. And I'm sure morethantwo.com also has that information, but you've chosen to not take that information in.

Your NRE is making you desperate for your "girlfriend." But polyamory takes work, dude. Especially if you're coming from a long term monogamous relationship. You've had 10 years to ruminate on polyamory, reading fiction (fantasy, maybe not helpful), and non-fiction, and probably having masturbatory thoughts, or thinking of fucking someone else as you fuck your wife.

Your wife, otoh, has had a mere 3 months. And you're so impatient to fuck your "girlfriend," you've told your wife you're done with her. Lo and behold, as a married woman who has invested 10 years in a relationship with you, as a mother of 3 young children, who apparently works inside the home for no pay, decluttering your home, vacuuming, dusting, decorating, perhaps gardening (weeding, trimming, fertilizing, pest control, deadheading, harvesting), planning meals 7 days a week, shopping for groceries, looking for sales, cooking the meals, then doing those dishes, doing home repairs, doing laundry for 5 people (I had 3 kids, that is a daily job), taking care of the children when they are injured or sick, feeding them around the clock when they are nursing infants, planning holidays (shopping for gifts and holiday clothes, hiding gifts, wrapping gifts, doing extra cooking and cleanup for guests, decorating and then un-decorating the house), taking the kids to school and picking them up, helping with homework, dealing with teachers and school administrators, taking the the children to after-school and weekend activities, shopping for clothing and supplies for the kids (and maybe for or with you), and taking the children to doctor and dentist and orthodontist appointments, etc., (all that work women do that many men take for granted), she is not ready to just let you, her trusted partner and breadwinner, go. She's made an INVESTMENT in a life with you, she is in a relationship that is the tempo of her life. But you're willing to dump her, and all she does, and all you two have been through together, for the new and shiny. Your wife. Who has no income of her own. Who is the mother of your young children. Whom you profess to love.

The new idea of polyamory can seem to put a hip, fresh gloss on the fact that, you had an affair and now you're willing to drop your wife and mightily shake up your childrens' lives for the sake of this affair.

That is cad-like behavior. Polyamory requires the consent of all parties. And as our member GalaGirl would say, that means a "joyful yes" from your wife, not just an "OK, I'll deal with this because I don't want my kids to lose the presence of their father on a daily basis, and/or because I don't currently have a full time job to support myself and my kids."

You might get a joyful yes from her if you can be more patient. Think with your brain, your heart, not just your genitals. Are you being fair to your wife and children? Or selfish, because of your NRE? Can you step up and give her a full year or even 18 months to grieve the former shape of your shared relationship, and learn to create a new one?

I know she tried to "make it work" so far, by saying things like, "Yes, you can see gf, as long as you don't have sex, as long as your hugs don't last more than 30 seconds," etc. I agree these terms aren't realistic. Micro-managing what you are "allowed" to do with an OSO is not the correct way to go. But give her a break, she hadn't spent years researching how to do polyamory.

Now is the time to focus on her, to read More Than Two, and Opening Up together, to read here and learn from others' mistakes.

You've been told it's rare for formerly mono couples to make the transition from an affair to polyamory. You only have a chance of making it work if you give it time. It sounds like you'd rather just ditch your wife. But that is cad-like behavior, and even your "girlfriend" can see that. She found that idea reprehensible and chose to go no contact with you over it.

Miscommunication here. It wasn't giving up the girlfriend that was "giving over control." Initially we specifically gave control to my wife in an attempt to proceed at a pace that would make her most comfortable. It was not a success. The rules that were instigated were arbitrary, inconsistent, and changed frequently."
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Remnant said:
Miscommunication here. It wasn't giving up the girlfriend that was "giving over control". Initially We specifically gave control to my wife in an attempt to proceed at a pace that would make her most comfortable. It was not a success. The rules that were instigated were arbitrary, inconsistent, and changed.... frequently"
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I do think time is part of the issue. Two months is not sufficient time to adjust to a poly relationship after years of monogamy...let alone time to regain your wife's trust or time for her to reconcile herself to the sudden changes that were thrust upon her by your actions. I don't say that to criticize you. I mention it again because it is just a FACT. If the goal is to stay with her in a poly marriage, then it's not a matter of giving her control over your relationships...it's a matter of taking your time and opening slowly, all while showing to her that you value your relationship with her (which she probably isn't feeling right now.) And, the truth is, even doing everything right, there is no guarantee that opening the relationship will work. Even when both parties are happily committed to opening, it doesn't mean it will work. Some people aren't wired for it, some relationships aren't right for it, and sometimes it's just the timing (which is probably a major part of the issue now - trying to open from an affair is difficult at best, impossible at worst.)

Tinwen's discussion of greatest perceived need based on current unfulfilled needs not being the true greatest need, is excellent and worth repeating. Right now, it feels to you that opening and furthering your relationship with your gf is your greatest need because it's unfulfilled. But is it really your greatest need? Visualizing what you would ideally like your life to look like and visualizing what it would likely look like if you divorce, is a great idea. Just be realistic about it. Consider how it would look living off 50-60% of your income (assuming the remainder would go to child support, alimony, etc.) How it would feel coming home to an empty house on the nights your children would be with their mother/your gf with her family. And, how it would feel being responsible for all of the parenting duties when the kids are with you...assuming 50/50 on physical custody. As a divorced parent, I can tell you that it was both better and harder than I imagined pre-divorce.

You are right that you don't get to choose for your wife...but you do get to choose for yourself. If staying and doing the work that's required to rebuild the relationship and possibly open (no guarantee it will work) does not appeal to you...if you really are unwilling to possibly lose your gf to fix your marriage, then you can and should choose to leave. Staying or leaving is your choice. Sometimes the choice that is best for us hurts the people we love. That doesn't mean it's the wrong choice. My only caveat is the same as others have said: While in the throes of NRE, we often make choices that feel right in the moment but in hindsight we regret. Taking time to really consider the choices and possible consequences, maybe working through them with a therapist, before making the decision, is a good idea.

Last thing I want to say is this: Trying to avoid or minimize suffering is not a valid reason for making a choice. Suffering is inevitable. We will have suffering in life. Potential pain is not a reason to avoid something. Growth is painful. Life is suffering. But, life is also joy. They coexist. You cannot have one without the other.
 
Actually, Mags, I was the one who suggested he divorce his wife. It is obvious that she is suffering, and maybe it would be kinder for her to be free to find the type of relationship she THOUGHT she had.

By him telling his wife that he will pick his girlfriend of a few months over her, his partner of 16 years, that is telling her EXACTLY how much he values their relationship. By her attempting to micromanage the relationship between her husband and his girlfriend, I can't see how that would indicate she is on board with this.
 
Remnant said:
No. I don't see the point. You've told me you don't see any reason to continue this discussion, yet you continue coming back to it. You've made your opinion of me and the situation perfectly clear so You're not really adding anything of value. I'm quite happy to take criticism, and I feel have I have from several other posters, But you've ceased to be.... helpful, constructive or even polite. Your "facts of life", are not facts, they're opinions. You have absolutely no obligation to engage with me in any way, but while other members are still engaging can you just give it a rest?????

I mean how is this helpful in any way beyond expressing your contempt (and yeah, I GOT it already).
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This thread is like a road accident. Can't bear to see, can't stop seeing.

You seem to think I am exceptional in my disrespect for your actions. I see this whole thread full of the exact same advice for you from different perspectives, in different styles. I am blunt, that is all. I also come with a truckload of experience in interpersonal relationships that is a lifelong subject of research and learning. I don't respect you. That is correct. I am not able to respect what I am coming across on this thread and I don't buy your claims of learning from here, because there doesn't seem to even be the foggiest comprehension of consent even now. You are on a forum for polyamory essentially seeking an ideological coverup for an affair. There is no polyamory without consent. Whether you are told politely or rudely, there is no getting around this one.

You may give the wife an ultimatum and she may stay for her own reasons, that still is an in-your-face affair you are aiming for, unless the wife is actually consenting - which you are not in the mood to wait for. What is to respect here? Your marriage was vows of monogamy that you broke. You're claiming polyamory without any respect for the "amory" in polyamory standing for love. What you have/want is an affair that you are seeking the quickest way to make sound ethical.

You want to be respectable? Divorce and seek a woman as a single man if you're mono/poly. Seek a woman with consent of existing partner/s if your polyamorous. Or accept that your wife may take a long time to come to terms with polyamory if ever and work on making your marriage one of love. CHOOSE and act on it sincerely instead of cherrypicking what works best for you from each. That is tougher, but yep, I'll respect that.

I am giving you feedback that can help. If you need politeness more than ideas and want me to legitimize with my respect what is inherently dishonest as a condition to reading, feel free to ignore. I'm sure what I think of you is more important than whether you sort your life out.

Edit: Just saw Magdalyn's post. Feel free to ignore mine and "learn" from hers if you find that polite. It is the same thing.
 
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Magdlyn said:
Lo and behold, as a married woman who has invested 10 years in a relationship with you, as a mother of 3 young children, who apparently works inside the home for no pay, decluttering your home, vacuuming, dusting, decorating, perhaps gardening (weeding, trimming, fertilizing, pest control, deadheading, harvesting), planning meals 7 days a week, shopping for groceries, looking for sales, cooking the meals, then doing those dishes, doing home repairs, doing laundry for 5 people (I had 3 kids, that is a daily job), taking care of the children when they are injured or sick, feeding them around the clock when they are nursing infants, planning holidays (shopping for gifts and holiday clothes, hiding gifts, wrapping gifts, doing extra cooking and cleanup for guests, decorating and then un-decorating the house), taking the kids to school and picking them up, helping with homework, dealing with teachers and school administrators, taking the the children to after-school and weekend activities, shopping for clothing and supplies for the kids (and maybe for or with you), and taking the children to doctor and dentist and orthodontist appointments, etc., (all that work women do that many men take for granted), she is not ready to just let you, her trusted partner and breadwinner, go. She's made an INVESTMENT in a life with you, she is in a relationship that is the tempo of her life. But you're willing to dump her, and all she does, and all you two have been through together, for the new and shiny. Your wife. Who has no income of her own. Who is the mother of your young children. Whom you profess to love.
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Magdalyn, 16 years investment, not 10. Counts like investing an entire generation setting up a home and wow. Mood change. Leave if you like. Or stay and watch, while I chase others. Get used to it fast. WOW.

I wonder whether OP even knows what he is up to for himself and whether he has any idea of what being single again would feel like if his wife called his bluff - which, if she has any decent friend/family support, she could once she gets over the shock and accepts that it is over.

Or whether he has given any thought to how interested a poly woman would be in a man who has a first experience of poly and dumps a long term marriage in order to be with her.

There just doesn't seem to be any amount of thinking gone into this at all beyond how to make the new relationship happen and how to handle the wife for least inconvenience.
 
OP, if you had learned a single thing from here as you claim, you'd be seeking suggestions for:

How to fix a massive fuck up in introducing your wife to polyamory and reassuring her that you still love her and value the relationship and earn her trust again.

OR

Ignore all the warnings about NRE and figure out how to end things with your wife and get started in a poly life.
 
anamikanon said:
OP, if you had learned a single thing from here as you claim, you'd be seeking suggestions for:

How to fix a massive fuck up in introducing your wife to polyamory and reassuring her that you still love her and value the relationship and earn her trust again.

OR

Ignore all the warnings about NRE and figure out how to end things with your wife and get started in a poly life.
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Anamikanon, I think you're also expecting him turn around his own world of thinking too much too fast. He's been here for two days.
 
I agree with Tinwen. Two days of reading opinions written by strangers. And, we also don't know the state of the marriage prior to the affair. My gut says that while affairs can/do happen in happier marriages...it's unusual for someone in a healthy/happy marriage to suddenly be willing to leave a partner they love for someone brand new (especially when the new partner is a married poly partner.) My guess is that there was at least complacency in the marriage...which is usually a joint issue, not solely the responsibility of one partner. No, that does not excuse the affair.
 
Tinwen said:
Anamikanon, I think you're also expecting him turn around his own world of thinking too much too fast. He's been here for two days.
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I am simply pointing out that he hasn't learned as the popular myth is going. False feedback will only give him a false reassurance that he's going to be able to PR his way into what he wants being acceptable. He hasn't got the basics. He hasn't learned - as he is claiming and others are agreeing. He's still thinking things through and is not yet ready to give up his preferred solution and is cherry picking feedback that could fit into his preferred solution or at least not contradict it.

That is all I am saying. He may need time to realise that what he is doing is wrong. I am not saying it has to happen right now. All I am saying is that it has NOT happened so far - which is why he isn't on track to go in any direction instead of talking in circles. If he claims he has learned and we agree that he has learned, then he'll waste more time talking in circles thinking there is going to be a time when it is okay to have a non-consenting wife at home and have an affair while he waits for her to consent. It isn't going to happen, but our false feedback will only enable his faulty assumption.
 
OK, well I will offer the unpopular view that I do think your wife's behavior sounds somewhat controlling. And that's about all the validating sentiment ya get. Because practically everyone I have ever known, who has behaved in controlling ways, has done so because of insecurity.

I was controlling of my ex husband's sanity because I was insecure of his ability to control himself. (Keep from violence, for instance, unless on a short leash.)

I know men who are controlling to their wives and girlfriends because they are insecure about being replaced, or about her wanting things they can't provide.

People often turn to controlling actions, when their very lives, the things that form the foundations they need to live, are shaking, in their perception.

And that, man, was all you.

If your wife "left" because she could not accept your terms, may I ask you, where would you expect her to go? Is she supposed to leave the kids for you (and gf?) to raise, or is she supposed to take them with? How will she afford FOOD, let alone everything else you need, to LIVE, for herself and three other humans?

I'm serious. Can you answer this? Tell me a story, where she and your children get a happily ever after, here. And she deserves the punishment of poverty and watching her kids suffer and be without a father, because...YOU cheated. You do wrong, she gets punished.

Can you see how it looks that way?

And how even polyamory doesn't fix that?

If you even once mentioned in this thread how you feel about your children, I could not find it. But I found several descriptions of how you feel about your girlfriend. Do you even care about the kids you helped to make?

Also, in addition to giving your wife time to adjust or whatever, let me say that YOU need time before you attempt polyamory. The health of your marriage, is not her work alone. Have you yet encountered the saying, "relationship broken; add more people"? Your marriage is a MESS and you have at least equal, if not greater, responsibility to work it out to a satisfactory conclusion, BEFORE you try to get involved with anybody else.

You owe that to your wife, kids, self, and future partners.

Also, YOU the man, you're not ready to do poly and succeed at it. Sorry. The long span of not speaking your truth, you cannot heal that in a few months' time like flipping a switch. You have a ton of stuff buried in you (I promise, and speak from personal experience) that you will need to dig up and work out.

So what does resolving the marriages issues look like?

It most definitely is NOT just waiting to give the wife a breather to accept your terms before plowing forward. OK, so you cannot wait until the kids are grown to do this. Fine. That's where you are in this negotiation. She needs a kill switch that is REASONABLE. And "ok then, leave" isn't. That one makes you look like a jackass, seriously rethink the matter of "what will she do? Where will she go? How does she support herself and kids?"

You have an obligation at the LEAST to make those things concrete realities with real answers, before you proceed to skip off into the meadow with your new love interest. You are a man, not a child. You have responsibilities. You're dismissing them, near as anyone here can tell, in some really uncool ways.

Are you personally wealthy enough to support your wife and kids AND yourself if you are living separately? Leave her the house or pay enough for her to get by? Will she be forced to quickly find a new partner to provide? Is that your plan? That could be difficult with your children in tow, suppose the only man who would be with her abused your kids, how would you feel? Women who are cut adrift like this face hardships like that, and it's like you don't even care about that. All you care about is not losing your girlfriend.

That's the picture you've painted here.

Please tell me you've given thought to these other matters.

I'm willing to accept that maybe you are not as bad (or blind) as all that, but you haven't given the forum that impression.
 
Thing is, what's in it for the wife to stay? Financial security for her children, a place to stay? A husband who's checked out of the marriage? Is that the type of marriage that we want to model for children? Maybe because I stayed longer than I should have for my children (not financial, my income has always been higher than my ex's, even when I worked part time.) In hindsight, I can see how that was more detrimental to my children than leaving would have been. Sometimes it's just better to rip the band-aid off, in my opinion. Pay child support and alimony, share physical custody. Yes it will hurt, yes it will mean major adjustments for all. But, sometimes we choose the least worst option....or we choose short-term pain for long-term well being. JMHO
 
I am struggling not to project, as both my parents' divorce and what happened afterwards, AND the situation with my marriage and its end, shape how I feel about all of this.

But Pinkpig, the problem is you are NOT trading short term pain for long term well-being. You're trading "right now sucks" for "but tomorrow we could all starve and die." When you have all of your security invested in a situation, breaking it is a roll of the dice. Things could end up better, but it's also completely possible that they will take a turn into DISASTER.

Poverty is a possibility. Poverty sucks. It damages people. This woman has not only no job, but no skills to get a decent job, and three kids to manage. When I had my kids in daycare last, was about 2009 or so, and I was paying $300 a week for the two of them, and that was a BARGAIN. I hired a transient woman from Craigslist who needed work. Centers were closer to $500-600.

And getting state help is not easy. People often think it is, but it's not.

She would, in most places, have to actively be seeking work, which means putting the kids in daycare, which is costly, and she can get help with that during her job hunt, but if she gets a full time minimum wage job, there's a good chance she'll lose her benefits.

I remember this rigamarole from when I was a very young adult. My ex had had surgery and couldn't work for a while, but the state was having none of it. We were POOR. I literally did not have enough to eat, and was living off of free "day old" donated bread, given away by the urban Mission center.

I would not wish poverty on anyone, and I most goddamn sure would stay in a less than optimal relationship to avoid it. Anything short of ABUSE.

Or...she could roll the dice seeking a new partner. It will be, as I said, challenging with three kids in tow. She might wind up with an alcoholic, a gambler, a cheater, an abuser, someone who will molest her kids. My mother found a younger Hispanic gentleman to marry after the divorce. One of his friends sexually assaulted me when I was 14, but hey, price of doing business, we had to have the bills paid. Neither that friend, nor any of his friends who were constantly trying to get with me, were ever barred from our home, because he had to be kept happy, y'know?

I just do not think that some people comprehend the possibilities of hardship that exist, for someone who invests so much in a marriage and family, and has it yanked out from under her.
 
Hey Remnant,

I don't have any new thoughts or advice for your relationship. Apart from marriage counselling and affair recovery material. Your old relationship is dead, but you probably need to devote time and effort into making a new one. Fix one relationship, then add a new one. One relationship is hard enough. Who on earth can do two at once? ;) Incidentally, impossible as it is to imagine, people from affair recovery often say that their new relationship with their original partner is better than they could ever have imagined possible. I'll second that sentiment with a personal Amen.

I wanted to copy/paste one of our senior member's advice that he gives on the introductions board to every person who comes to this forum:

kdt26417 said:
Note: You needn't read every reply to your posts, especially if someone posts in a disagreeable way. Given the size and scope of the site it's hard not to run into the occasional disagreeable person. Please contact the mods if you do (or if you see any spam), and you can block the person if you want.
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You would initiate a block by clicking the red ! in the top right corner of their post, Remnant. Not saying you should, but just giving you the option. I'm hoping that when you're healed and better from all this hurt, that you'll join the forums to help out others as they go through similar painful life experiences. I hope we haven't scared you off. I feel that many of our forum members may actually have that harsh tone with you because your story reminds us of an equal pain we felt in the past. Your story reminds us of us in our worst moments.

Good luck,
Shaya.
 
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Spork's first post is incredibly on spot, as a whole, and this especially.
Spork said:
It most definitely is NOT just waiting to give the wife a breather to accept your terms before plowing forward. OK, so you cannot wait until the kids are grown to do this. Fine. That's where you are in this negotiation. She needs a kill switch that is REASONABLE. And "ok then, leave" isn't. That one makes you look like a jackass, seriously rethink the matter of "what will she do? Where will she go? How does she support herself and kids?"

You have an obligation at the LEAST to make those things concrete realities with real answers, before you proceed to skip off into the meadow with your new love interest. You are a man, not a child. You have responsibilities. You're dismissing them, near as anyone here can tell, in some really uncool ways.
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This is what is epically wrong with this whole story, right? Not the affair, not NRE and choosing the gf, not really the lack of communication or swinging the pendulum of control totally from one side to the other. It is presenting the wife with a false choice, building a life as a couple and then discarding it on a whim, taking on responsibility for family and then not giving wife and children a second thought, expecting a supposedly beloved human being to disentangle her live from his in an instant, pulling the rug right from under her feet.

I agree. If people are living the traditional marriage model with the husband bringing in money and the wife doing childcare, the very least responsibility of the husband in case he wants to leave the relationship - which is, what has emotionally already happened - is to provide for the kids, and part ways with his wife in a way which preserves her dignity and gives her opportunity to adjust to a new life. That means, even if there is no love any more in the marriage, providing a solid material offer, enough time to process, and refraining from the affair until partners are living apart. Anything less than is abuse of power.
 
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Reading Spork's second post, there may be too much assumptions. We know nothing about the ages of the kids and we know nothing about her qualification. Only, that she's not self-sufficient right now.

That doesn't change much. Even if she's a skilled professional who will find a job within weeks if needed and won't get into any abuser relationships, she still needs a solid offer of how material and interpersonal relationships could look like if the relationship ends, she still needs time to process, she still needs housing sorted out and she still needs to be able to keep her dignity in the process.
 
Obviously, this post has hit a nerve for many of us, myself included. Thing is, we really don't have sufficient information. We do not know how financially solvent they are, how long the wife has been a stay at home mother, or what her skill or education level is. It may or may not be financially feasible to end the marriage. And the thing is, we will all have a different take on what defines financial stability anyway. My suggestions were made based on the fact that the OP has made it very clear that his first priority is the relationship with the gf, not his wife. It's hard for me to see a clear way forward in the marriage if the wife is starting out in second place.
 
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