Affection in Poly Spaces with Friends

[Orlandobif]

I was affectionate only within the context of a relationship until my late 20s when I learned to be comfortable even with a hug hello or goodbye. Fast forward 20-25 years and I am more affectionate initiating hugs than my friends. I’m comfortable sitting close on a couch at a party where I might sit leg to leg with friends sharing a video or hooking my arms through theirs.

I recently had a couple of experiences with poly people, sometimes at poly events and pool parties where I have snuggled in, hung upon and blurred the lines of affection and sexual energy with people I was or was not specifically dating or interested dating. It was just a comfortable space in the moment where we could share touch and be close.

To my surprise, the older I get the more I want to be affectionate with friends. It seems an artificial barrier to declare affection more intimate than sex or off limits with friends for reasons that are not clear to me. It seems safe, close, sometimes flirty sometimes not. Sometimes we just wrap our hands around each other’s waist and sway a little. I like that a lot. Or getting closer than necessary to show a video or photo.

I am sure this is “allowable” because it is poly space. Any move to do this with anyone outside of poly would be considered off limits, making a pass or letting intent be known. It has this highly charged meaning. The question I have is why can I enjoy this with my poly peeps and not with others. What does it mean beyond “this feels good”?

So I ask, are you affectionate in poly spaces where you are certain you’d have your hand slapped elsewhere? Do men have an exponentially harder time getting more touch in their lives because of sexual advances and unsafe feelings? Can women enjoy this freely or is that also suspicious? Why then doesn’t it apply in poly space where I can hang on and be hung upon by men but not in other places?

I’d rather talk about what is available within poly space rather than sexual assault or unsafe places outside of poly space and I’m more interested in how you enjoy that space as I do. Can you reach out to your friends and just hug, sway and sit together only in poly space or with other friends?

All I really know is that I like it and it’s a public invitation for others to share that space with me. I want to be open to that even with people I don’t know well. I mean, it’s just good stuff, right?

 

[Shaya]

What an interesting topic! Thanks Orlandobif.

When I first started reading about poly, my eyes opened to a whole realm of intimacy that lay on the grey between friends and lover. My take on your question, is that there is a spectrum or horizontal line between friends and lovers that poly allows you to explore but that monogamy shuts off. I'll explain below.

Monogamy allows only 1 sexual and/or emotional partner. There is a sanctity about this that is so strong that any hint of deviance towards an additional partner is taboo. Therefore, even though flirting may not lead to a destruction of your monogamy, it may be the first step on a slippery slope towards a new romantic interest and therefore can be considered taboo, especially in public. Sharing emotional intimacy often leads to physical intimacy so this is often also taboo. Additional sexual intimacy is taboo, for the same reason.

Polyamory allows everything up to and including physical and emotional intimacy with multiple partners. It is the "up to" which is important to the question you ask, I think. Polyamory allows you to customise your relationship with a person. Polyamory allows you to get emotionally close to a person without necessarily offering yourself as their one and only. Polyamory allows you to be sexual with someone without offering yourself as their one and only partner. As an extension, you can even hug and flirt or kiss someone without it progressing further. Polyamory allows everything "up to" and including physical and emotional intimacy with multiple partners.

Monogamy is predicated on scarcity - if you open yourself up to one person, you are closed to others. Polyamory has no such assumption and so you are free to open yourself up to others, even if you're only opening up 'partway' up the relationship escalator.

In summary, I feel that you are describing being comfortable in giving hugs and flirts in a poly environment because of the understanding that whatever relationship you form is under no pressure to go further. There is a spectrum between friendship and lover that the world of monogamy is unable to admit exists. In polyamory, there is the potential to have a friend whom you share kisses with but no other physical intimacy that would be unusual in monogamy. To me, the reasons come down to the monogamous assumption of scarcity and commitment. Anything that threatens the monogamous model is seen as taboo. As such, anything on the spectrum towards a lover threatens the monogamous model. Therefore, monogamy dictates strict lines for friends and lovers and treats everything in-between as a pathway towards a lover. Your discomfort when giving hugs and flirts in a monogamous environment stem from your awareness that you are sending the wrong message.

Does that resonate with you or is it just me?

 

[sunray]

Wow, that sounds kind of amazing. The poly spaces in my area are not nearly so snuggly! I don't know if that's a standoffish New England thing, or just because our community is fairly small and we mostly go in for discussion groups rather than social get-togethers.

FWIW, I have experienced exactly the energy you describe, though--in my four years at a women's college!

 

[lunabunny]

I'll answer this in two parts, from a personal perspective:

1.) In general society, especially "Western" society, with its emphasis on mononormativity, I believe that it is usually much more acceptable for women to show affection to other women with whom they are not engaged in a sexual relationship. This includes straight, bi and lesbian women of all ages, showing affection to other female friends, relatives or children. As women and girls, we are allowed to sit close to our friends, even on their laps, put our heads together while snapping a selfie, kiss them (occasionally even passionately, especially if partying), hold hands and put our arms around each other, without being "accused" of trying to seduce them or having sexual or romantic intentions towards them. However... if a straight or bisexual woman tries this same behaviour with a male, especially if either is already in a relationship, it'd be construed as unacceptably flirty, seductive, even trashy.

From personal experience, I believe straight males have the hardest time engaging in platonic physical affection, unless it's with their own (young) children or with teammates on a sports field. All members of society have been conditioned to suspect the motives of a straight male who appears too "touchy feely". Children are warned about "stranger danger", "funny uncles" and pedophiles in their midst. Women and girls have often had one too many bad experiences with unwanted male attention, advances, touching, etc. Unfortunately, in many areas of society, it is seen as "wussy" for boys over a certain age to cry or need cuddles or hugs for comfort or just pleasure. Therefore ALL males pay the price.

Basically, I believe the above mindsets stem from the fact that the majority of the human race considers non-utilitarian "touch" (entering the personal space of another with the aim of showing affection or giving/receiving pleasure) to be a hallmark of an intimate or familial relationship.

2.) I am currently the hinge in a poly V triad that includes my male partner, J, and my female partner, B. I have pretty different views on this issue in comparison to both of them, and have recently butted heads over this very issue with B in particular.

Firstly let me say that while I acknowledge that all humans need the comfort and pleasure of human touch to some degree, I am probably the more "conservative" one out of our trio when it comes to issues of platonic touch between friends and displays of group intimacy. Possibly our ages play a role in this (they are both in their 50s and grew up in the pre-AIDS era, therefore notions of communal affection and multiple lovers were not foreign concepts to them as they were to me, who came of age in the 80s and 90s). Or possibly a number of borderline non-consensual acts in my past have coloured my view. But whatever the reason, I am not as comfortable with the concepts of polyamory, overt displays of physical intimacy/affection between platonic friends, or having non-intimate acquaintances enter my personal space, as either of my partners.

Unfortunately, this means I often become anxious when my lovers express themselves in non-sexual, physically affectionate ways towards each other. They cannot understand why I react this way on the occasions they've shared a bed, cuddled, or lain their heads in each other's laps, to name some examples. I believe the fact that they're former lovers makes me feel more threatened when they engage in these behaviours than if they'd always been "just good friends", but understanding WHY I find it hard to accept still doesn't make it easy to accept, if you know what I mean.

Conversely, neither of them see anything wrong with such displays, and B in particular has been rather forceful in the past about asserting her "right" to show physical affection toward J, even against my wishes. For example, I explained that when they go away on vacation together, I don't see why it's necessary for them to sleep in the same bed since they're not romantically or sexually involved anymore, yet they've still done it and/or complained about me setting boundaries regarding appropriate levels of affection and touch. This makes me feel like I'm a prude who is out to spoil their "fun", while I feel like I'm being quite tolerant and accommodating by allowing them to go on several trips a year without me. Sorry if this is too personal or straying from the topic.

 

[Marcus]

So I ask, are you affectionate in poly spaces where you are certain you’d have your hand slapped elsewhere?

Nope. I keep my hands to myself unless I have established already that touch is welcome on both sides.

Why then doesn’t it apply in poly space where I can hang on and be hung upon by men but not in other places?

Being poly does not mean that a person wants random people hanging on them and petting them. Those two things, while may be overlap, are mutually exclusive.

Sounds like you're looking for a cuddle party. They have them in poly and "sex positive" circles out here in Portland on the regular. It's not my thing so I've never attended, but apparently people love them and get a lot of their touch needs met in that kind of venue.

 

[vinsanity0]

Being a straight guy, I don't presume that it's okay to hang on someone at a poly meetup. In fact, doing so would probably get me labelled as someone I'm not. Conversely, it does seem okay for women to do that to anybody they wish.

I do have friends with which we do that in a non-poly setting. But those are established friendships.

 

[opalescent]

Interesting thread Orlandobif!

I have a complicated relationship with touch in general. And it's complicated with people in poly/kink/sex positive circles around touch for me.

Many of the poly events or groups I am a part of have a similar dynamic as to what Orlandobif described. People in those environments are often more willing to touch and be touched by others. In fact, so much so this has become the default in those environments.

There is nothing wrong with this. I think it's helpful for many people and is fulfilling for many. Society as a whole is really touch deprived. I've seen people get giddy over the fact that they can touch others or be touched themselves in the ways they want, in a generally safer environment. (No place is truly safe - there is always the risk of consent issues, betrayals of trust and general unpleasantness.) That said, safer environments where touch is explored and welcomed are Good Things, in my opinion.

But I have often felt like an outsider because my default settings around touch are often at odds with the environment created by poly folks and other similar communities. My various communities love Cuddle Parties (tm) and puppy piles and such. I do not get the point of cuddling with strangers at all and puppy piles make me feel trapped. Touch offered by a stranger feels intrusive to me. I rarely want to hug a stranger, much less curl up with one at a party or event. I also don't really understand cuddling as a non-sexual thing. Cuddling is something I do with lovers. Obviously other people have very different ways they experience and want (or not) cuddling. Most people in these environments seem to have no trouble making it into a non-sexual thing. So cuddling friends (without benefits) feels really odd to me. I very rarely am willing to do so. It's happened but only with my closest friends, the people I am most truly intimate with.

I've also thought a lot about what touch means for me. I love touch and want to touch and be touched by others. Much of my ideas around touch come back to love languages. My primary love language is Quality Time, followed by Acts of Service, Physical Touch, Words of Affirmation, and Gifts. Many people whose primary love language is touch build intimacy through touch. Which seems like a 'duh!' thing to say. Of course, touch builds intimacy. Sometimes there is little distinction between the two. After all intimacy and sex are often used interchangeably. For a lot of people they feel the same.

I realized a few years ago, for me, they are not. I don't build intimacy with another person through touch first, like many folks seem to. That feels wrong and intrusive to me. I need to spend time with someone, talk with them, get a sense of their mind and soul before I would want to touch them or have them touch me. Intimacy (in terms of time and sharing ideas, stories, conversation) leads to touch, not the other way around. Don't get me wrong, touch can deepen intimacy in ways that are not replaceable or interchangeable. For a long time, I assumed (and others assumed about me) that I didn't value touch because of my many boundaries around it (no hugging strangers, cuddling weird outside of sexually charged connections, long time to want or accept touch from others). I recently realized that this is not true. I love touch and crave it. I know when I am touch deprived (which is a problem for me if I am short on lovers) and how crappy that is. I greatly value touch. But I don't perceive or experience it similar to how someone who is more Physical Touch oriented seems to.

I've had discussions and attempted to explain my perspective to others in these communities. Sometimes it's been fruitful and sometimes just annoying. The annoying response is too often 'you should get more used to touch and/or widen your boundaries!' I'm always trying to grow and expand but this misses the point.

The point being, for me, that not everyone experiences or wants touch in the same way. Poly communities can normalize 'one way' of being around touch as the default. Then, unthinkingly, stigmatize or push to the edges people who do not fit into that particular way of being. I don't people to not explore touch or get their needs met. What I want is a poly environment that welcomes touch in ways that are open and accessible to people more like me. It's something I continue to bring up locally in my communities.

Also, the whole thing about (usually cis) women touching other people in ways that would be perceived as threatening if done by a man just irks me. Just because you (female person) are generally seen as much less of a threat than a man does not make it ok to grab ass, touch boob, stroke or otherwise fling yourself into another's personal space without permission or consent. Just because it's perceived as cute or flirty does not make it any less of a consent issue. Women, time to check one's privilege on this.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I do not get the point of cuddling with strangers at all...

I do not have a complicated relationship with touch in general and I completely agree. I'll hug and sweetly kiss anyone who seems comfortable with it, but cuddling is for children and lovers in my world. It's way more intimate than sex and doing it with strangers sounds like a fate worse than death.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Orlandobif,

It sounds strange to say, but I haven't joined any of the local poly groups in my area, and I don't have any local poly friends. Except my two poly companions in my V, of course. So it is hard for me to say how I'd respond to a lot of touch. I do have to say, though, that I was raised in a household that didn't do a lot of touching, so I guess my default is to shy away from touching. Outside joking around with friends, that is.

Interesting questions.
Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[vinsanity0]

I do not have a complicated relationship with touch in general and I completely agree. I'll hug and sweetly kiss anyone who seems comfortable with it, but cuddling is for children and lovers in my world. It's way more intimate than sex and doing it with strangers sounds like a fate worse than death.

That made me laugh. For me it sounds like Hell. That group I used to belong to had cuddle parties. I was interested until I figured out it was some sort of non-sexual cuddling. Then I thought there is no way I could put myself through that.

 

[Marcus]

I was interested until I figured out it was some sort of non-sexual cuddling. Then I thought there is no way I could put myself through that.

I think sexual cuddle parties are technically called "orgies"

 

[Shaya]

On the topic of orgies, I have a funny story to share.

I first came across the word "orgy" in an Asterix and Obelix comic book when I was 12 years old. I didn't know what it meant but presumed it to mean "having a great time in a group." I had a friend over at my house with my mum present and we all ended up laughing over some joke. I then said we were having such a good time we should have an orgy.

My mum turned around and walked out. My friend looked at me and said, "Do you have any idea what an orgy is?!?"

And that's how I learnt the meaning of orgy.

 

[lunabunny]

Interesting thread Orlandobif!


But I have often felt like an outsider because my default settings around touch are often at odds with the environment created by poly folks and other similar communities.

Touch offered by a stranger feels intrusive to me. I rarely want to hug a stranger, much less curl up with one at a party or event.

My primary love language is Quality Time
After all intimacy and sex are often used interchangeably. For a lot of people they feel the same. I realized a few years ago, for me, they are not.

I need to spend time with someone, talk with them, get a sense of their mind and soul before I would want to touch them or have them touch me. Intimacy (in terms of time and sharing ideas, stories, conversation) leads to touch, not the other way around. Don't get me wrong, touch can deepen intimacy in ways that are not replaceable or interchangeable. For a long time, I assumed (and others assumed about me) that I didn't value touch because of my many boundaries around it (no hugging strangers, cuddling weird outside of sexually charged connections, long time to want or accept touch from others). I recently realized that this is not true. I love touch and crave it. I know when I am touch deprived (which is a problem for me if I am short on lovers) and how crappy that is. I greatly value touch. But I don't perceive or experience it similar to how someone who is more Physical Touch oriented seems to.

I do not have a complicated relationship with touch in general and I completely agree. I'll hug and sweetly kiss anyone who seems comfortable with it, but cuddling is for children and lovers in my world. It's way more intimate than sex and doing it with strangers sounds like a fate worse than death.

I completely agree with all of the above, for that is the way I also feel about touch, in general (for children and lovers - everyone else keep well clear of my personal space, unless invited, which would be rare.


P.S. Shaya: your "orgy" anecdote made me chuckle.

 

[lunabunny]

Also, on these points:

Interesting thread Orlandobif!

But I have often felt like an outsider because my default settings around touch are often at odds with the environment created by poly folks and other similar communities.

Poly communities can normalize 'one way' of being around touch as the default. Then, unthinkingly, stigmatize or push to the edges people who do not fit into that particular way of being.

I have felt like an "outsider" in my own relationship from time to time, due to a conflict in the way myself and my partners feel about the issue of non-sexual touch.

FTR, I'm the hinge in a V triad, which should mean I'd be fine about any kind of touch going on, however I have a really wide personal space circle and this can vary from day to day due to a number of factors. Always best to ask or otherwise seek a non-verbal go-ahead.

Conversely, one of my partners simply thrives on touch and is really into the idea of the group "puppy-pile" and sleeping in the same bed - which I am not. She also has a tendency to come up behind my male lover (both now and especially when they used to be intimately involved) and grab him in a bear hug or kiss the back of his neck, which he found irritating after a while. He is not touch averse or against non-sexual touching, but he doesn't like to be surprised or have no say in when touching/fondling occurs, which I can totally understand.

Also, the whole thing about (usually cis) women touching other people in ways that would be perceived as threatening if done by a man just irks me. Just because you (female person) are generally seen as much less of a threat than a man does not make it ok to grab ass, touch boob, stroke or otherwise fling yourself into another's personal space without permission or consent. Just because it's perceived as cute or flirty does not make it any less of a consent issue. Women, time to check one's privilege on this.

I also addressed this in my first comment on this thread. While I believe females-touching-females tends to be perceived as more acceptable in general society as well as poly communities, I agree that this is a harmful double standard. Many men would love to get their legitimate touch needs met without being viewed as a lech or a perv, and can't, while it seems to be expected that anyone - whether man, woman or child - should simply submit to the (not necessarily welcome) touch of a woman, simply because she's female so it must be okay.