How to invite your wife into polyamory ?

[ref2018]

Hey ref2018, the single question that powerpuffgrl1969 did was answered and I didn't mean to make any case against her. Just hoping I could help her find the source of that anger.


I don't quite understand why. That request reminds me more of an "court of justice" than a support board. Anyway, she wouldn't agree in talking about herself in open boards like this, even in our native language. She is too sensible to criticism.



This made me laugh. The post from the link has a few silly statements, indeed, such as "I'm not a Machista, I don't even work out"... I noticed though that thread had been created 4 years before your account, which might indicate that you have closed your original account, and if that is the case then I'd understand why would you think I could have a previous account too. I don't have that intention though, as I only have one story to tell.

Yeah i didn't think you actually are that guy. Obviously English sarcasm doesn't translate into your language or else you are being deliberately obtuse. Probably both.

 

[Seinneann]

Seinneann,



Could you explain precisely what do you think I did, or may do, that disrespects her boundaries?
Few days ago she congratulated me for the exact opposite, for having respected what she is willing or not to accept between me and Cam, during the water park. Does that change the way you see things, or is it about something else?

When you posted what your wife said, your response to what she said was this:

The only thing I learn from this message is that she is afraid of any pain and she hasn't acknowledged the potential benefits of changing her beliefs. In short, she lacks on motivation, currently.

That is not a response that respects her boundaries. You are saying that she should be changing her boundaries because she doesn't know what's good for her. She doesn't have to change any beliefs because there is nothing wrong with what she believes now. And your response clearly shows no respect for that.

In this case, everything you have typed in this entire thread shows that you believe that you know better than your wife does about what's good for her. Sorry. You don't.

 

[LoveQuest]

Making things cool...

Seinneann,

Thanks for explaining why did you present such critics, but that's not what's going on.

The only thing I learn from this message is that she is afraid of any pain and she hasn't acknowledged the potential benefits of changing her beliefs. In short, she lacks on motivation, currently.

You are saying that she should be changing her boundaries because she doesn't know what's good for her. She doesn't have to change any beliefs because there is nothing wrong with what she believes now.

No... What I said had a totally different meaning. I never said polyamory is good for her, that I know better, nor that believing in monogamy is wrong. When I said potential benefits, I meant that she is totally uninstructed on the subject and she hasn't even tried to learn about the topic or understand, for example, what are the benefits found by some people (not necessarily her). I should have used "understood" instead of "acknowledged".

Anyway, due to her disorder plus the fact that she has been "reactive" to the topic, I'm unable to talk to her about the topic directly, thus we hardly had any conversation about it. And when I say "reactive" I don't mean she is having a nervous breakdown or anything like that, she just shifts to a hostile tone of voice so I immediately quit talking to avoid any argument, which would be totally fruitless.

Let me explain through an analogy. She is very religious and I'm not at all, but I'm not afraid of her religion either. So I have tried to understand her beliefs, and I agree with many or most of them. I followed her into churches many times, even though that felt super boring for me most of the time. Sometimes she suddenly dismisses our schedule to go to the church and I try not to complain, because I have learned how important it is for her and that she feels good doing it. So I didn't feel threatened by the church and I didn't try to change her beliefs. And when I followed her I saw she was so happy that it motivated me to try to change my own beliefs. Unfortunately I couldn't change my beliefs or didn't find any purpose in continuing with that, but we are ok with it. We don't have any problem with our different views about religion.

However, if by any reason I felt threatened by her religion, then she would have at least to wait for an opportunity to talk about it without making me feel threatened.

So... Maybe another day Cam may talk to my wife privately about her experience with open relationships. My wife is likely to get interested then, as she will probably not feel threatened. If Cam is not too shy to talk.

 

[Seinneann]

Nope. I understood perfectly well. I'm not talking about conversations you may or may not have had with your wife. I'm talking about the attitude you have displayed very clearly towards your wife's boundaries throughout this thread. No amount of clarifying/re-explaining/rewriting the narrative has changed how clearly your attitude towards your wife's boundaries is unhealthy.

If a friend of mine described to me that her husband was acting towards her in exactly the way you have described your own actions here, I would tell her to get out as fast as possible. Especially with mental health problems, because all of the attitudes you're describing would only exacerbate such issues and not help them.

You need to either accept a monogamous relationship with your wife or you need accept that you cannot have what you wish whilst still being married to her. Stop trying to get her interested.

 

[ref2018]

Be careful what you wish for because you might get it

Hey LoveQuest, how about this:

Let's say your wife comes around to your way of thinking and agrees to give nonmonogamy a try. Does that apply to her, or just you? What if she and/or Cam want to date/see/sleep with/cuddle with/have sex with another man/men with and/or without you? Would you be ok with that, or is this all about people being a means for you to achieve your own agenda, providing *you* with the "extra" love that *you* "need" while you are supposed to provide "enough" to go 'round for all? Because i'll bet it would be fine with you if Cam and/or your wife wanted to sleep/cuddle/fuck/love each other, or for one or both of them to bring another woman around to join your slumber party.

I eagerly await a reply to this. I am sure you have it all figured out by now.

 

[powerpuffgrl1969]

Please, please, please do NOT enlist Cam to help you change your wife's mind! When will you realize enough is enough? This is not what she (your wife) wants?

And I am not angry as a reaction to a previous "enmeshed" relationship. I am angry because a mentally fragile person is being subjected to this. It's a crime. Don't think you know me or my situation; I would hazard a guess you haven't even read my previous posts (and I have been on this board for five years.) You just assumed that, since I was showing my frustration, I must be "projecting" onto you from a previous horrible relationship.

Nope. It's just you. I'm frustrated with you.

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't hear that as defensive or argumentative. It's just what it is: Things will either improve or not

Let me clarify this. Here is the argument and counter-argument:

Me: we'll either remain unfulfilled or it will get even worse
Her: it will either improve or it will end, so we won't remain unhappy

I said she was wrong because this is just simple logic, and this logic isn't based on the facts of our relationship. It actually contradicts them.

I do not see the contradiction. You both seem to agree that things are poor right now. The only difference is you are not willing to part ways at this time. Where she sounds willing to part ways in time if things do not get better.

You seem to guard against that idea -- the idea that parting ways is a possibility. Rather than say YOU do not want to part ways, you use the baby as excuse:

The facts are:
We have gone through the most terrible things, survived it and grew a stronger love. Never had sex problems or lacked on mutual attraction. She now feels better and behaves better. Plus even if things changed, we both would be willing to sacrifice ourselves further so that the baby didn't suffer from the financial and emotional distress of a separation. Hence, there isn't any indication that we will separate in any near future.

She seems happier now than in previous years, or at least more satisfied, but not me. I'm just getting worn out further and feel imprisoned.

The baby is baby. Baby doesn't know any different in life. Baby is not going to care if the parents are married or divorced at this point in time. Baby doesn't know what "monday" is much less what "marriage" or "divorce" are. If you both make decent coparenting arrangements, the baby isn't going to suffer much of anything. It will be financially and emotionally taken care of. The stress of a divorce falls on the adults getting the divorce, not an infant.

Sacrificing yourself to stay in a relationship that is "worn out" and not especially happy is you keeping your own self imprisoned.

What is divorce? For me it is only about property, money and kids custody, yet it doesn't say anything in terms of emotions.

Why not move on then? Split up the property, money, and kids custody. And then you are free to express your emotions and love how you want to love.

If you feel imprisoned in this relationship, it is worn out, and you are unfulfilled and not happy in it? Rather than pester wife into her doing poly, you could move on to do poly on your own.

You already have Cam who IS up for Open relationships. Could let wife go and seek another partner instead.

I can understand that you don't want to do that right now. But... it IS among the many possibilities.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

I just read this entire thread. As the mother of a daughter born with BPD, I thought I'd comment.

I see you understand BPD rather well. You've been dealing with your wife a long time.

People with BPD think in black and white terms. Grey areas just don't exist for them. For example: in a rage, your wife pushes you away, and then immediately takes you back when you fuck someone else.

BPD sufferers act out in rages. They are often very passionate lovers. They are hot hot hot or cold cold cold. UP or DOWN, never in between and just content. When they cry, they throw tantrums and SCREAM. (My daughter got fired from work for drinking on the job, went to her bf's place and threw herself on the concrete floor, banging her head on the concrete in shame.) They tend to abuse substances to a large degree. They also steal, lie, use their friends and families to a point of pushing them away. They may be violent towards their loved ones, punching, kicking, spitting in their face, biting. etc.

Then they feel guilty for their binging or harming of others. They might apologise very sincerely, and then punish themselves by self harming, such as punching themselves or cutting their flesh. This gives them a little peace, until the obsessions and compulsions begin again.

BPD sufferers can heal, to a certain extent. My daughter went from selling her body on the street to buy drugs, immediately into a supportive born again Christian church. Much to all her family's surprise, being in this church (which specialises in helping former drug addicts, with the help of "God") it helped my daughter very much. She met a man who was also a former drug user, while she was a prostitute. He got her off the streets, they started going to this church, (on the recommendations of a good therapist, mind you). Not only did she quit illicit drugs, alcohol and cigarettes cold turkey, she also got off her pharma meds. She and her husband now have 2 little children and another on the way. They are over 3 years clean and sober!

Of course, being BPD, she loves intensity. Her children are 2 1/2, 1 1/2, and she is 3 months pregnant again! She's a good mom though, and has always been good with children. She does best when she is nurturing someone else. She was always helping other women in the mental institutions and halfway houses. Until she stole their drugs, any drugs, heart meds, hormone replacement meds, you name it, just because she was compelled to take some drug!

But. Back to you. It's good you see your wife gets support from her church. This stood out to me since it happened for my kid. I hope it continues to help her. It might take some of the burden off of you and give you a rest.

However, just the same, it is very obvious you are suffering deeply from caretaker burnout. (Not to mention your own childhood abandonment issues.) White knighting isn't easy. And now you have an infant too, which is highly demanding. Plus other kids.

You have been abused by your wife. You wish for a calmer more stable partner. You feel you have found it in Cam. You find her to be a good support for you, nurturing your own needs when you have given so much to Wife.

And now I get you saying that your wife thinks in black and white. That is her "default" response. So you discount the message of hers you posted as being her "kneejerk" response, and think it does not accurately represent how she might eventually feel, given enough time, to (you hope) accept the "grey area" of polyamory.

 

[ref2018]

she might eventually feel, given enough time, to (you hope) accept the "grey area" of polyamory.

I wonder (as indicated in my previous comment) if *LQ* could accept the "grey area" of them (wife and Cam) having relationships with other people, particularly other men, inclusive *or* peripheral to this not-necessarily-sexual-healing he is pushing for.

By "I wonder", i mean "I'm not sure, but i could probably guess the answer."

It's obvious to me that OP has their mind made up and is going to keep elaborating until someone, *anyone*, gives him any sort of validation or approval so that he can create an "example" to present to his wife as "evidence" that this "works".

Magdlyn, you left out the part where your daughter and her husband are poly in order to heal each other's emotional scars and lack of love they received during childhood. That's key.

 

[rosephase]

As someone who was partnered with someone who showed a lot of BPD traits (she was never diagnosed) for seven years and was non-monogamous for the entire relationship, I've been watching this thread and trying to sort out what I think might be useful information.

My ex -wanted- poly. She was non-monogamous when we met, so was I. And while having more partners did help support her (and support me because supporting her all the time burned me out badly) what it did was allow the relationship to limp along instead of end when the abuse had become destructive to me and our shared partner.

My ex handled poly the way she handled all things. BPD traits didn't lessen because she had more support. She used my outside relationships as weapons against me. She would not have any "rules" put on her about who/where/when she started sleeping with other people. We found that the easiest way to move forward was to ask nothing of her and accept her rules and demands on our other relationships. She would rather jump out of a moving car (this happened) then talk about how her actions (sleeping with a complicated ex) might affect me emotionally.

When I was on dates I would get streams of mean texts telling me I didn't love her. When she was on dates she would disappear for days without letting us know where she would be or when/if she was coming home.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that poly can make things more complicated. Not less. And if what you need is more support and less taking care of her... that doesn't necessarily show up by having another partner. I had other partners the whole of our relationship. They would hold me when I was worn out. They would listen when I was upset. They would help me get away and leave the stress of her behind for awhile. But that didn't fix the issues. It only made them temporally more bearable. And I think in the long run I stayed longer than I would have otherwise. What I needed was to get out of that relationship.

A bit over a year after we finally broke up I'm still recovering. I still have fear reactions about disappointing my partners. I will be in a sudden panic when I need to cancel a date with a partner who has never been mad at me in our entire relationship. When you've been deep in it for years it can be hard to see that it can be different. That there are options that end the abuse for good. That you can stop being a saint, a parent, a caregiver to someone who lashes out wildly and with the purpose to injure. Leaving her seemed impossible. But then I did it. And now there are so many more possibilities. This year of recovery I've been shocked over and over again to find how much damage and pain I was shoving down in order to keep going. In order to keep loving her and keep -trying- with her. I took everything she had to give. I thought I was the strong one. I thought I could love her the right way and she would see it and be kind to me.

Well, anyway, that's what happened to me with someone with BPD traits who actively wanted to be poly.

I feel for your situation. But I can only recommend getting out of it. The pain you have been is clear and if you are anything like me it runs deeper and is more involved then you suspect.

 

[ref2018]

As someone who was partnered with someone who showed a lot of BPD traits (she was never diagnosed) for seven years and was non-monogamous for the entire relationship, I've been watching this thread and trying to sort out what I think might be useful information.

My ex -wanted- poly. She was non-monogamous when we met, so was I. And while having more partners did help support her (and support me because supporting her all the time burned me out badly) what it did was allow the relationship to limp along instead of end when the abuse had become destructive to me and our shared partner.

My ex handled poly the way she handled all things. BPD traits didn't lessen because she had more support. She used my outside relationships as weapons against me. She would not have any "rules" put on her about who/where/when she started sleeping with other people. We found that the easiest way to move forward was to ask nothing of her and accept her rules and demands on our other relationships. She would rather jump out of a moving car (this happened) then talk about how her actions (sleeping with a complicated ex) might affect me emotionally.

When I was on dates I would get streams of mean texts telling me I didn't love her. When she was on dates she would disappear for days without letting us know where she would be or when/if she was coming home.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that poly can make things more complicated. Not less. And if what you need is more support and less taking care of her... that doesn't necessarily show up by having another partner. I had other partners the whole of our relationship. They would hold me when I was worn out. They would listen when I was upset. They would help me get away and leave the stress of her behind for awhile. But that didn't fix the issues. It only made them temporally more bearable. And I think in the long run I stayed longer than I would have otherwise. What I needed was to get out of that relationship.

A bit over a year after we finally broke up I'm still recovering. I still have fear reactions about disappointing my partners. I will be in a sudden panic when I need to cancel a date with a partner who has never been mad at me in our entire relationship. When you've been deep in it for years it can be hard to see that it can be different. That there are options that end the abuse for good. That you can stop being a saint, a parent, a caregiver to someone who lashes out wildly and with the purpose to injure. Leaving her seemed impossible. But then I did it. And now there are so many more possibilities. This year of recovery I've been shocked over and over again to find how much damage and pain I was shoving down in order to keep going. In order to keep loving her and keep -trying- with her. I took everything she had to give. I thought I was the strong one. I thought I could love her the right way and she would see it and be kind to me.

Well, anyway, that's what happened to me with someone with BPD traits who actively wanted to be poly.

I feel for your situation. But I can only recommend getting out of it. The pain you have been is clear and if you are anything like me it runs deeper and is more involved then you suspect.

Rosephase, you are projecting your previously entrenched experience onto the OP. Tsk tsk!

 

[LoveQuest]

The family engine..

Seinneann,
With all the respect, you are a feminist, right? I believe your interpretation of my situation is being highly influenced by related preconceptions, which I can't change. Hence I'll refrain from any discussion with you about boundaries and abuse.

By the way my wife is against modern feminist movement. She gave me an surprising intellectual explanation on why this has collaborated to destroy traditional families, particularly in our country, defeating democracy. She believes men and woman have different roles and it is important to preserve men's strong figure, and that the feminist movement actually promotes the opposite in terms of conflict resolution. And she is disgusted about how this movement has affected my previous kids and even our own relationship, while she was "out of her mind". I don't have such strong opinions but I think this shows how much she trusts me.

I agree with her that men and women are two different but essential pieces in the family engine. Though she believes in the nuclear family while I think it should work better as a network. I see great similarity between the large family house and polyamory arrangements.

 

[LoveQuest]

ref2018, your posts have been unhelpful and unfriendly, so I'm not replying to them any more.

 

[LoveQuest]

My little chamber...

GalaGirl,

There is a large gap between what she says and what she does. For instance, she is as far as possible from the idea of leaving the relationship. She is actually looking forward about making the great wedding party we never had and having more kids with me whenever possible. I'm the kind of guy that hardly breaks any relationship, but I have no problem in accepting it's end and never argue against a woman's decision.

I actually don't think I have have any fear of abandonment. My void that comes from emotional neglect is quite different.

The baby is not an excuse to be in a relationship but it is, for me, a good reason to hold on and endure unpleasant situations. In other words, I could, if I wished, just separate emotionally without going through the entire process of divorce. That means to sleep in a separate room and quit having any intimacy or even casual conversation with her. I know this is possible because I have done that in the past while living with my ex-wife, who I didn't love anymore, for a relatively long period. With my current wife, however, we are so passionate for each other that it is impossible not to bond, share intimacy and take care of each other. As a general rule, remaining close may be necessary when one of the parents suffers from a "disability" in terms of emotional regulation and gets easily overwhelmed by single parenting, eventually becoming toxic with the kids (as my ex-wife does). I must be hard, however, for someone without such adverse experiences to understand what I mean.

Also, it's actually very fulfilling for me to notice how happy the baby becomes when taking a nap between mom and dad, taking turns in hugging each other, and laughs out loud in happiness when mom and dad kiss each other. This is so tender and nice to see... I strongly disagree if you think that the baby is ignorant about our bond, or that this is not important for the baby's emotional development (which is the most important aspect of development). But anyway we are not together just for the baby.

If you though that we fight all day long, believe it or not, this did part of the past. Now we actually get along very well because her disorder is "sleeping" most of the time. She remains perfectly fine for about 90% of the time and her unstable moments usually don't last more than 5 minutes. No physical harm or uncontrollable behavior.

If you feel imprisoned in this relationship, it is worn out, and you are unfulfilled and not happy in it? Rather than pester wife into her doing poly, you could move on to do poly on your own.

My goal in this quest is to increase and spread my ability to love, so it would be counter-productive to destroy or replace existing love. Wouldn't make much sense to be divorced and still love each other either. I'm worn out, not the relationship. I'm unfulfilled but it is not her duty to fulfill all of my needs. She already fulfills many of them.

My imprisonment is not her fault. She does contribute both negatively or positively to that, depending on the occasion, but in essence it is something I bring from childhood. When young, I had a recurrent and almost obsessive dream of living in a tiny little chamber that I had built which was sound proof and made me invisible. There I had everything I needed including food and the best entertainment. I wasn't able to realize though that I needed more than that, which I do realize now. And when I see the baby's happiness, it becomes much easier for me to imagine my inner child experiencing warmth from his caregivers and enjoying life out of his little chamber (see post #27).

You already have Cam who IS up for Open relationships. Could let wife go and seek another partner instead.

This statements seem to describe a monogamous mindset were people "own" each other. Me and Cam are not meant to be primary partners, I guess. Remember, we are boring.

And my wife is free to seek for another partner whenever she wishes. I'm very relaxed about that because she is very honest with me, which is my core requirement and the example I give. She has said minor lies in the past to avoid judgment, but we have talked a lot about it. Now she feels safe enough to confess anything and values the truth as much as I do.

 

[Seinneann]

Seinneann,
With all the respect, you are a feminist, right? I believe your interpretation of my situation is being highly influenced by related preconceptions, which I can't change. Hence I'll refrain from any discussion with you about boundaries and abuse.

If you want to use the irrelevant fact that I'm a feminist to create a reason not to listen to me (probably because you are only wish to hear things that agree with and validate your actions and not to critically reflect on your own behaviour and how to do better) then by all means, carry on as you are then.

Best of luck to you. You're going to need it.

 

[FallenAngelina]

That request reminds me more of an "court of justice" than a support board.

Perhaps it's helpful to keep in mind that this is a discussion board, not a support board. We never rush to support any and all members here or poly situations, but we do discuss things in detail. This is no place to find blanket support of everyone who is exploring polyamory. This is a great place (IMO, the best place) to interact with experienced and intelligent people who know the poly landscape pretty well.

The sad thing is that she is unable to realize that she is wrong.....As you see, it is hard to talk to her...

You've gotten repeated feedback here that the same is true of you. What will you do with this information?

 

[ref2018]

ref2018, your posts have been unhelpful and unfriendly, so I'm not replying to them any more.

You're welcome.

 

[GalaGirl]

Sounds like at this time you choose to stay then.

Galagirl

 

[LoveQuest]

FallenAngelina,

You are right, discussion board is the correct word, and I've had plenty of helpful discussions here. Because my thoughts go so deep it may seem as if I already had the responses in forehand, but I have actually come to plenty of insight through this thread. It's only unproductive if it gets "quarrelsome" or is taken too personally.

What will you do with this information?

My wife has never been so well. She smiles, laughs and finds motivation all day long. So it makes no sense to tell me that I'm doing something wrong when the facts point towards the opposite.

 

[LoveQuest]

We survive before we thrive...

Magdlyn,

Thanks for going through the entire thread. So much text now. And your input is highly appreciated.

It's nice and so interesting to know how has your daughter's life shifted after she found herself accepted and included, by the church and her partner. Seems like that was the kind of context she needed to feel included and not beneath everyone else. At the same time, I see that this change, alone, can't eliminate her propensity for drug addiction. I'll send you some links through PM with information about how to help her with that in a healthy way, in case you want to know more about what has worked for us.

You have been abused by your wife. You wish for a calmer more stable partner. You feel you have found it in Cam. You find her to be a good support for you, nurturing your own needs when you have given so much to Wife.

It is true that I was searching for a calmer and more stable partner when I met Cam, because I needed, but wasn't planning on anything too serious. And I don't actually feel abused by my wife, because I have not been forced to make any of the choices I did. I chose what I thought was best for me, including the choice of making her pregnant. We both have been a victim of her disorder, but I don't feel like I am her victim.

So you discount the message of hers you posted as being her "kneejerk" response, and think it does not accurately represent how she might eventually feel, given enough time, to (you hope) accept the "grey area" of polyamory.

Correct, it was her "kneejerk" response without giving it any thought. It is very hard to get a chance of being listened and share my feelings and in that specific dialog it wasn't lucky with that, which is understandable since I have only send an audio message. There have been rare moments however that she did listen to me and acknowledged my request for help. That's how she begun surprising me by inviting Cam to hang out with us.