Guru falls

[Maur]

Damn, i'm angry. Enough to dig up my long-lost login and password...

From what Eve said, that isn't abuse. Taking her money and preventing her access to funds is financial abuse. Your partner cajoling you into spending an inordinate amount of money to sustain the relationship is not.

It's worse. Quoting Rickert:

"You’re probably already giving him money. If you aren’t now, you will be soon. You may not be supporting him directly, but you’ll be paying to go see him, and paying to bring him to you, and paying for your adventures together. You’ll probably feel sorry for him, that his poverty is someone else’s fault, the cause of something another woman did to him (is that woman me? He told me the same story too, about another one)"

I wonder why people don't seem to see that this is something... ugh:

"Paying to see him, paying to bring him to you, paying for your adventures together"

Does that mean paying for his taxi/uber, paying for a dinner or cinema ticket, or whatever they were doing together? Or holidays or something more expensive?

Because that is something that goes without saying as something completely normal if it's a man paying for a woman. This is something normal even with supposedly progressive, non heteronormative polyamorous circles (and don't get me started on that, i am totally sick of it), the assumption and uncritical acceptance of these double-standarts.

Seriously, how could not anyone notice this and point it to Rickert? These people, signees of the original medium article... i don't know them except Peper Mint, who is basically queer, and i respect him hugely, so how the fuck did that went through?

Reading Light and Shadow i was a bit confused because of the lack of substance, and hugely curious given the people involved. Though the accusations in that posts were already very vague. But after reading Rickert two posts... i am mostly curious what we will be able to read next, because as it stands now i'm inclined to think Rickert is in the wrong here, not Veaux. The whole thing reads as an scorned ex, very one-sided, blaming ex for their own decisions, not a description of abuse.

(or the other thing Rickert wrote about it... where the Veaux fault is that he doesn't accept screaming at him, or wants to be explained why she feels angry at him*)

https://ourbetternatures.wordpress.com/2018/11/08/guest-post-anger-management/

On a last note, i find it somewhat tragicomical that some people react to this by disowning More Than Two. Didn't they hear that the book was mostly written by Rickert, not Veaux? Although, tbh, it's basically the same thing which his website is, so it confuses me somewhat. And it's kind of funny that they managed to write a book that is theoretically very good, but yet managed to apparently not apply it in their life - though it's something that happens often in reality, so there's that. We have a proverb about that in my native language, even.

On a really last note, i am pretty bitter about the whole gender angle of it. Believe women, really? (not even believe victims, not even a thin veil over that sexism?) I thought the whole humans of female persuasion beign morally better went out of fashion in early XX century? Or you folks aren't simply aware that abuse is not a gendered phenomen? How many of you know that, of all things, rape is not gendered phenomen? That women rape men roughly as often as men rape women?


PS: I am really confused by the "friends" issue:

"More questions: Where are his friends? Not just people he knows online, or admirers he may visit from time to time, but his friends?"
So, Veaux doesn't have lasting friendships?
"Because you will be punished. You will be shunned. You will be shamed. By people who had been your friends?—?your “family.”|"
But these transient friends invariably take his side in his conflict with exes (or just Rickert)?
"Who got the friends after his breakups? All of them?"
Or, what? No, i have no idea at this point.

*Oh, i had something similar recently. My now-reconnected old ex, and my soon-to-be ex (apparently). I did scream, not at them, but from pain. And both of them felt horrible with it. No, it wasn't abusive from me, that's true. But it's also true that they are completely understandable in their reaction to the whole meeting (5 hours of very emotional stuff) - one saying that she doesn't want to met us again while we have such precarious relationship, and the other, more resilient, just beign (as the first one) completely exhausted and wanting to escape the situation and not doing it just because of her temperament.

 

[Seinneann]

So have the women. Allegedly, at least one continued to permit him to do this while she was in the abusive relationship. So she stood there, letting him speak about said relationships AND advise other people, yet this only becomes a big deal now they've split up AND he has accused her of abuse. It isn't just FV who is seen as some sort of "guru".

Everything you're saying here indicates a lack of awareness of the dynamics of being in an abusive relationship. Unless your desire is to discredit Eve's claims, I don't see how any of that is useful.

And given the fact that I hardly see Eve Rickert's name come up and be quoted, as compared with the amount FV is quoted (and credited despite their joint authorship) I don't think we're dealing with an equivalency in terms of platform.

I don't think it needed to be private, but the people speaking up needed to speak up if they were going public with it. The people who have not benefited from the involvement of journalists and outsiders in regards to going public are the victims. It has made their story which was always going to be criticised for a range of reasons more doubtful as it seems about vengeance (yes even though you keep repeating that it isn't). I think you have disrupted a normal, but I can't see it working the way you hope. I fully expect FV to come with his own band of supporters (some who have already spoken online about the women being abusive) and embarrassing and personal stories to come out about them. Some of which will reinforce his views that his partner(s) was/were abusive.

Well, bias is bias. And bias frequently favours the abusers in these contexts. If you want to perpetuate and support that, that's totally your prerogative. What's interesting is that far more people have come forward with a very different reaction than yours. It would be interesting to see where that difference of reaction comes from.

You (and the group) continue to speak as if we do not understand victim blaming. For me personally, I DO understand victim blaming and that's why I am saying that any victim is more likely to be blamed due to the presence and continued efforts of the "14" and just about anyone who decides to pose as one of them online because they want to give their opinion on the matter more weight. It's the words of the support group that cause me to doubt the women because I haven't heard anything the women have said. They keep speaking on their behalf.

Again, that's your bias. Others have seen it very differently, and interestingly- many of those being people who have a lot more expertise and experience with abuse dynamics. If you want to criticise the women for not speaking themselves, saying that you have no reason to think their allegations are credible, again, that's your prerogative. The larger reaction we're seeing is a recognition that this is a good process to support abuse victims and prevent further harm. Is it perfect? No. But I hardly think an online battle of "he said/she said" is a better option- for everyone involved and for the community.

Again you also misunderstand. Any talk of the possibility of revenge comes from how the publications are worded (again the fault of the support group) and that the statement by Eve about a previous partner does show someone who has poor boundaries and seeks a particular style of polyamory that not everyone wants. Eve seems to suggest that all poly is *that way* so any poly woman will feel the same as her. That isn't a testimony of abuse - it's venting about a bitter break up. Nothing in that makes me think her ex is inherently harmful. If she came on this site, I'd tell her to focus on herself and her own relationships and less about what her partners are doing elsewhere. Consider if she would be more compatible with someone who agrees with the level of entanglement she obviously requires. I'd also tell her to set a budget and stick to it.

Again, that's a view coloured by bias. The majority of reaction I've seen to how the letter is worded and to Eve's writings on her experience don't see "the appearance of a desire for revenge" or "just writing about a bitter breakup". I think you've made your own narrative and anything you see will support that narrative at this point. And again, your blithe "advice" to her suggests a remarkable lack of knowledge about how abuse dynamics work. Having worked in a shelter for domestic abuse survivors, I can assure you that the advice you're offering isn't very useful to women who are in abusive relationships. If you want to question whether the relationship should qualify as abusive, feel free. But you're speaking as if you've already made your conclusion on that front.

Apparently, it was less than 24 hours between a private letter and a public statement naming him. In between, he spoke of the letter and the ex but did not name anyone. In response to what he did, this "light and dark piece" was released. Obviously written and ready to fly if he responded in ways that were less than satisfactory to the group.

FV had been writing about his "abusive ex" for a while at that point and had already identified his "abusive ex" as the co-author of More than Two. So yes, she had been named already, if not directly in that post. And yes, it would seem reasonable that any support pod that seeks to create an open process of accountability would be prepared for such an eventuality.

From what is released, FV has been openly accused of financially abusing or exploiting partners; exploiting youth/naivete in order to reel in new victims; neglecting partners to the point of abuse; "serious harm"; exploiting people with a mental illness and verbal abuse. You cannot say that they're accusing him of such actions but not attempting to "declare him guilty". Some of those things are crimes. They are absolutely trying to declare him guilty.

If that's how you choose to see it with the information you have, then it's a good thing he has people like you to come to his defense.

I seriously doubt the 6 women would be happy for us to hear his side of things and analyse their actions. One of them at least seems to think KTP with access and even control over other relationships is what polyamory is about. I'd expect someone who wrote a book on the subject to be more adaptable to the range of poly relationships and realise that FV cannot be a nesting partner for her as he does things very differently. Downgrade the relationship and find a model that works for the people involved. Of course if you've already pretended that you're cool with everything and written a book saying as much, you're going to feel stuck.

There are a lot of uninformed assumptions you're making in these statements with very little evidence to back them, except for what you appear to be reading with your own bias. Unless you're privy to the exact personal interactions that happened in the relationship, I highly doubt any of these assessments you're making are worth much. However, I do wonder why you feel the need to make such judgments with so little information. (this is another reason victims of abuse prefer their experiences not be discussed like this- people with very little information drawing a lot of conclusions- it's tiresome)

I'll say again that the support group and their supporters need to stop going.around the Web arguing with people who are discussing it. I think the way it was handled will make it a lot more difficult for any victim to be believed but it's done now. Best thing is that they step back and leave any public accounts to victims now. Stay behind the scenes.

I'm sure your advice has been taken on board and given the appropriate weight it deserves.

 

[FallenAngelina]

The tangible damages to someone falsely accused are easily repaired, once investigated and found to be the case....I know the men falsely accused will recover quickly.

I am thankful for one thing: that you and anyone else who holds this view does not serve in any judicial capacity in this country. If this is the foundational belief of the support team, there's no further discussion worth having.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

The public reaction I've seen has consisted of people either saying he could be mean online (so they believe it), that all concerned sound like a hot mess (and they never thought much of the books/site anyway) or openly doubting that there was any abuse or victims. I can't see how that's positive in any respect.


What I believe as an individual is irrelevant. I just know that anyone with their name in this will be dealing with the consequences of this poor approach for years to come. Bias is bias and bias does benefit abusers. That's why limiting the potential of bias was so vital yet terribly neglected for unknown reasons in this case.

Lastly, I've seen various posts online reminding everyone that Eve wrote at least half if not more their joint works. I think coming forward to say that her words and beliefs were constructed at a time where she felt she was being abused is very important.

 

[Leetah]

If anyone cares I think the contentious tone of this thread is partially due to a lack of shared context. You know the end of Blazing Saddles when the Western bar fight breaks through to the sets of completely different movies being filmed at the same studio? It feels to me as though something similar has happened here.

This forum was going along on its neighborhood cafe set when Redpepper runs in, yells "A Guru Falls!", some people jump to their feet and strangers start to tumble in announcing "for God's sake! Stop gossipping about them and give those women some room!" and "We know you've all been Taking sides in this ongoing battle! Stop it! It's not a battle! i can tell you're on the other side!" All spoken using unfamiliar jargon which annoys the regular cast and crew who start throwing verbal punches back.

This forum has paid no attention to anything going on in FV's life or his wider circle of friends. Probably few here know anything about "transformative justice" or "support pods" etc. We have almost no connection to these people, events, or theory of conflict resolution.

This has not been the friendliest introduction.

If people want to have a more productive discussion everyone needs to notice that they are coming at this with different perspectives, or even from different subcultures.

Leetah

 

[Al99]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chelseydoeslove
The tangible damages to someone falsely accused are easily repaired, once investigated and found to be the case....I know the men falsely accused will recover quickly.

Fallenangelina's response:
I am thankful for one thing: that you and anyone else who holds this view does not serve in any judicial capacity in this country. If this is the foundational belief of the support team, there's no further discussion worth having.

__________________

Indeed.

Let me share the very true story of a situation that happened to an acquaintance of mine. "Tom' is in an open/non-monogamous marriage. A year or so ago, a woman he was dating demanded he leave his wife. When he refused, she informed him that she was going to destroy his life since he would not leave his wife for her. And she did.

She filed baseless sexual assault charges against him (he passed two polygraph tests and she refused to take one). She called his job to inform them that she had done so. He was fired from a long term reasonably lucrative job in which he had significant tenure, options, benefits, etc. It made the local news and he was ostracized by his family, friends, and neighbors. He eventually found another job, but when the grand jury ultimately decided to indict him, he lost that job as well.

Since there is no corroborating evidence, and since the woman is not cooperating with prosecutors, there is a good chance the charges will be dropped or perhaps plea bargained to a class c misdemeanor contact. But it has cost him his career, reputation, and about twenty grand in legal fees.

In the current social environment, we struggle to find that delicate balance between listening to the accuser and protecting the rights of the accused. Great care is needed - whether as serious as a criminal matter, or otherwise.

 

[vinsanity0]

I am thankful for one thing: that you and anyone else who holds this view does not serve in any judicial capacity in this country. If this is the foundational belief of the support team, there's no further discussion worth having.

I agree, at least in the case of the person you quoted. As I was contemplating a response I saw myself going down a rabbit hole frought with strawmen and innuendo.

To be fair though not everyone associated with this (here and in a couple other forums I checked out) have been this politically charged. In public anyway.

 

[vinsanity0]

Is it skepticism or bias?

Skepticism. The fact is I have no facts. I am supposed to take what this group states at face value. I can't accept it or dismiss it because I have no facts.

I have examined what biases I may have. Yes, I am a man who has been abused. Yes, I am a man who has been falsely accused of abuse. Yes, I am not a Veaux fanboy. I think the first two just give me a different perspective. The third? It might be I am overcompensating for any bias against Veaux I might have. Mostly I am looking at this from the viewpoint of a nuetral bystander. I don't have a horse in this race.

Because everything I've seen and read on this indicates that the process *was* initiated privately and was intended to remain so. FV is the one who went public about it with his scathing narrative (which was shown to be factually incorrect with receipts) and the Medium article was published in response to FV's public commentary on the process.

FV has since deleted the criticising posts with which he went public and posted that he'd engage the process (a post that also throws a narrative spin of a series of events that leaves out the fact that he went public with it first).

I am only aware of a Quora post and a Facebook post. I am not aware of a scathing narrative. I don't believe the Quora post was meant to be a response to the support group. I do think he didn't think through his response to "How is your day going".

Those are pretty key points that seem to keep getting missed here.

Admittedly, I am not privy to all the insider information you are. Again, I haven't made up my mind about anything because I don't have all the facts.

And it still seems that you're passing this assessment of transformative justice already deciding FV is "guilty" without much knowledge of what the process is about. Because it's not that into declaring people "guilty".

And I freely admit I am not an expert on the philosophy of Transformative Justice. Besides the articles posted in this thread, I have read at least six other articles. Every single one of them mentions victims and perpetrators. They also mention crimes or breaking of rules. Are you really expecting me to believe the support pod hasn't determined Veaux is guilty of abuse?

And as a point of information, the process does also examine the victim's role in perpetuating abuse and holding them accountable because the goal isn't "retribution" or "revenge". The goal is to stop the conditions which create harm in communities. There's a massive difference between being held accountable and being declared "guilty".

A massive difference? How is a person being held accountable for being an abuser not assumed to be guilty of abuse?

And if examining the victim's role is an actual part of the process why are you criticizing SEASONEDpolyAgain for saying the victim's role should be examined? How is examining the role of victims different from victim-blaming, which you have charged is going on here?

And why aren't we saying "alleged victim's" and "alleged abuse" if guilt has not been determined?

Are these unreasonable questions?

 

[MeeraReed]

I am thankful for one thing: that you and anyone else who holds this view does not serve in any judicial capacity in this country. If this is the foundational belief of the support team, there's no further discussion worth having.

Yes, it's a good thing the American judicial system is totally fair and impartial, and that no one with unreasonable anger or entitled views could ever be appointed to the highest court in the land...

 

[Leetah]

LOL

 

[ref2018]

This has given me 21 new people to strike off my dating list.

You have a list? They were on it?

 

[Louisa]

Update on TJ Process

I see this discussion, as with many discussions going on right now across the web might benefit from this update (although several of the links have been mentioned in this thread) Light Shadow & Movement

CW: Abuse etc.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Is it true that one of the people involved in the 14 was recently a subject of one of these "processes" as they had been accused of some sort of abuse or other violation(s)?

 

[Louisa]

Pod Response

Yes, it is true that someone involved in the Franklin Veaux intervention recently had an accountability process.

We in the Survivor Support Pod called on Reid Mihalko to serve as a liaison between the Survivor Support Pod and Franklin (as well as the people Franklin calls on to be part of his Accountability Pod when he eventually convenes one).

As Chelsey Blair, a member of the Survivor Support Pod, wrote on a public statement a few weeks ago, we chose Reid for this role precisely because he recently went through an accountability process himself. We believe him to be well-positioned to help answer questions Franklin may have and refer him to relevant resources. You may read the full post here

Reid has written his own statement about the extent of his role publicly as well, and you may read that here

You can familiarize yourself with Reid's process here

It is also entirely possible that you are not referring to Reid but to some other person involved in this effort. At least one member of the Survivor Support Pod has engaged in repair and reparations to someone they harmed within the last year and it is not beyond realm of possibility that any one of us could be invited by others we've harmed to examine our patterns, witness the impact of our actions, and engage in repair or accountability.

Everyone is capable of harm. This means that at any time any one of us in the pod or any signatory of the letter may be called upon to do accountability. We view accountability as an invitation to better embody our values and create safer communities and welcome the tendency of transformative justice processes to invite entire communities to clean house.

I hope this helps answer your question.

 

[chelseydoeslove]

If the criticisms I receive for my views are "she's too radical", I am achieving my own goals. I'll let the survivors I am advocating for decide whether that is supportive of them, as they would know best.

As for election to judicial service, y'all would be better off with me than you are with Kavanaugh, I PROMISE. Radical > misogyny, 10/10 of the time.

 

[vinsanity0]

LOL... I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Kavanaugh supporter in this forum

 

[WhatHappened]

….the rate at which they would falsely accuse is so incredibly minuscule, we are much safer to assume they are telling the truth and repair the mistake, later, should it happen to be such. ….. I know the men falsely accused will recover quickly. I know the women who are silenced and ignored will surely not.

Sorry, no, we live in a world where plenty of people are willing to lie about others. And no, the men do not always recover quickly. To say so is as callous and wrong as to flippantly say women who are sexually harassed or women who are raped will recover quickly.

Just one instance: https://atlantablackstar.com/2013/1...ently-freed-after-spending-decades-in-prison/

But you don't need 27 or 35 years in prison to severely derail your life.

I find it appalling to flippantly shrug off the effects of false accusations and basically say, tough, get over it.

Skepticism. The fact is I have no facts. I am supposed to take what this group states at face value. I can't accept it or dismiss it because I have no facts.

Exactly. This is the basis of our legal system and it should be the basis for our thoughts on judging others, too. Let's not jump to conclusions without knowing the facts.

I am thankful for one thing: that you and anyone else who holds this view does not serve in any judicial capacity in this country. If this is the foundational belief of the support team, there's no further discussion worth having.

I'm in full agreement with Angelina. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

 

[ref2018]

On reddit, the moderator of /r/polyamory will delete your comment for "victim blaming and attacking" if you have anything to say that doesn't side with "the women" categorically and unconditionally, or if you ask a question about other sides of the story.

 

[Louisa]

Pod Response

Many of us in the Survivor Support Pod appreciate concerns about the criminal justice system and agree with you wholeheartedly that confronting harm is not possible through its systemic violence. I would like to clarify that accountability processes are not in any way connected with the legal system.

We do not seek to punish Franklin or other people who have harmed in our community through the criminal justice system or in some other way. Transformative justice is about acknowledging harm, witnessing those who were harmed and helping those who harmed stop harming.

We appreciate that alternatives to criminal justice are new for many people in our community, especially those from countries where deterrence through punishment and exile are the only ways to deal with harm.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Many of us in the Survivor Support Pod appreciate concerns about the criminal justice system and agree with you wholeheartedly that confronting harm is not possible through its systemic violence. I would like to clarify that accountability processes are not in any way connected with the legal system.

We do not seek to punish Franklin or other people who have harmed in our community through the criminal justice system or in some other way. Transformative justice is about acknowledging harm, witnessing those who were harmed and helping those who harmed stop harming.

We appreciate that alternatives to criminal justice are new for many people in our community, especially those from countries where deterrence through punishment and exile are the only ways to deal with harm.

I think you're being extremely condescending in this last paragraph. There is no valid alternative to legal repercussions *if* there is no law broken.

What I would ask is whether "there were no abusive individuals, only a turbulent relationship between incompatible people" is something the group acknowledge as a possible outcome from all this. Or is it just accepted that FV was oppressive and abusive to partners who in no way contributed to what was a unhealthy relationship?

Elsewhere: someone says that they were affected by an ex partner of FV who displayed possessive and hierarchical attitudes which were not in line with their expectations. Other person says that is to be expected when your partner isn't following your rules/protecting your primary role from others. Said other person is avid supporter of the group from the nature of their posts. This is what I mean about incompatibility. Some people think it is really abusive when someone doesn't want the same as you or won't appease your mononormative demands. Another point this person made is that when you live with a partner, there are automatically rules you have to follow in terms of how much time you spend together and how.