I'm a "swinger," but I LOVE my multiple partners

[AlwaysGrowing]

Hubby and I used to swing. The folks we met were great fun. Friendly, open to all body types, encouraging people. There was definitely a stigma against m-m interaction, though. Like fucking the same woman with incidental contact was fine but touching another man on purpose with no woman involved would have been a huge ick for most of them. It was also very couple centric, welcoming of single women (unicorns/HBBs - hot bi babes - especially), and limited single men to ones who had an established group member vouching for them.

We were weird in that we found another couple and would become "exclusive " for periods of time so that we could fluid bond after testing. When either couple (or me since I was the slutty one of our exclusive little group) decided to play with someone else, we'd give a heads up and everyone could decide if they were comfy with the risk level or wanted to go back to barriers. I developed love for another woman which was the catalyst for me discovering the term polyamory and exiting the swinging scene.

During the crossover, she and I were not judged at all for our feelings. People that it was "cute" but considered it a phase that we would eventually outgrow.

After moving states, the swinging crowd was much more anonymous encounter driven and not as friendly/hangout focused. I couldn't do it and gave it up for good.

So swinging varies much like poly varies, in my experience. And there are just as many arguments about semantics and definitions on forums for swingers as there are here.

 

[icesong]

Vicki, I'd love to hear more if you would share. I am concerned about the objectification, and "grossness."

I haven't been to a swing club in well over a decade and a half, but my experience *definitely* matches with that objectification. Of course, I was <22 when I was doing this thing and the majority of the people in the club were 35+ so you do the math. I'm not wildly attractive, not unattractive but no model, but even then I was still a "hot young thing" as these things go, and was reacted to accordingly. But then that was an intriguing change from being a geek and was a fun persona to try on for a while.

Compared to the kink scene, consent was... sketchier. No meant no, of course, but that doesn't mean someone wouldn't try to talk you into something or touch first and ask questions later, or flirt in very physical manners - especially women. (Knight once got, hmm, for lack of a better term ambushed sexually by a woman he had made it clear to he wasn't interested in.) And it can be a pretty alcohol / drug fueled scene - or was where I was playing. The kink parties I've been going to lately are run by an ex-swinger and a mutual female friend of ours showed up at one, drunk, and tried to drag me by dress to go fuck... totally out of bounds in kink world and "maybe a little sloppy" in swinger world, at least in my experience.

 

[PinkPig]

I went to a swingers club in another city with Blue once. Everyone seemed friendly and they had a big presentation on consent during the mandatory tour for all visitors that reminded me a lot of the discussions on consent in various poly groups I've attended. We didn't stay long because it didn't appeal to us, but it was different than I expected.

I've never attended the local group since swinging doesn't appeal to me. Someone I know is involved in the group. It's a close knit group... many members take vacations together, some are in each other's wedding parties, and many consider each other chosen family. Most males are straight but there are some bi males who participate. Her description really sounded more poly to me. But then, the average age skews younger, less than 35 so that could be why.

 

[vinsanity0]

It's not very sex positive to come down on swingers as shallow, broken, objectified, etc. They do what they like to do. Same for people who enjoy casual sex in general. Just because it's not right for you doesn't mean it's not right at all.

There are feminists who are horrified at the thought of what I like to do with a willing partner. It's the patriarchy and no woman would do that unless they are under the thumb of the patriarchy blah blah blah. No, women have the power to enjoy sex any way they want. It's not up to us to judge other than to say that's not for me. Just like BDSM is not for everyone, neither is swinging or hedonism. There are people who can just enjoy sex for the sake of sex. Been there, done that myself.

All of this only gets wonky if everybody isn't playing by the same rules. People walk into a swing club basically knowing what is going on. If they don't, then that's on them. It's not like if a guy meets a girl and sweet talks her into having sex with him by claiming to be relationship material. It's more like "you wanna fuck and I wanna fuck so let's fuck. Maybe we'll see each other again, or maybe not."

With all that being said, nobody is perfect. Sometimes swingers catch feelings. Maybe they want more than swinging. Sometimes poly people decide they would rather be mono. Nothing is set in stone.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

This idea that swinging is unethical because you are not available for full partnership is ridiculous. Nobody owes you a relationship. If you can love someone without holding them to the expectations of a full partner, then you'll be able to swing regardless of whether you develop romantic attachments. If how you feel is intrinsically linked to what you feel someone owes you, then you're going to be the swinger that gets dumped for falling in love.

Swinging isn't healthy for lonely people who need love. It is for people who like to mix socialising and sex to some degree.

 

[Magdlyn]

Always Growing, icesong, PinkPig, thanks for sharing your experiences! It's very interesting to read about the variety of ways things can go.

 

[Magdlyn]

It's not very sex positive to come down on swingers as shallow, broken, objectified, etc. They do what they like to do. Same for people who enjoy casual sex in general. Just because it's not right for you doesn't mean it's not right at all.

"Sex positive...!" Ha! You know what a horndog I am. I am way more willing to talk about sex than most people, even people on this board. I'm no Puritan. I'm just polyamorous. I don't enjoy casual sex with mere bodies.

I didn't say swingers were shallow. I said I found Karen's first response shallow just because it, um, lacked depth. It lacked the depth of introspection I asked for and later got.

I didn't say swingers were broken. I asked if they were broken somehow, since they could seem to have sex but not have feelings develop, despite the bonding hormones that are released during sex. There is a huge difference between asserting something and just asking a question.

I do think there is objectification going on in swinging or casual sex. That almost seems to be a given. "We're here for sex, not a full romantic long term relationship. You're cute enough, let's go fuck."

There are feminists who are horrified at the thought of what I like to do with a willing partner. It's the patriarchy and no woman would do that unless they are under the thumb of the patriarchy blah blah blah.

No, women have the power to enjoy sex any way they want. It's not up to us to judge other than to say that's not for me. Just like BDSM is not for everyone, neither is swinging or hedonism.

There are people who can just enjoy sex for the sake of sex. Been there, done that myself.

I am allowed to have an opinion. I can judge without being judgmental (there is a difference, look it up).

And yes, as a kinky person, I can and do say, "Your kink is not my kink, and that's OK."

All of this only gets wonky if everybody isn't playing by the same rules. People walk into a swing club basically knowing what is going on. If they don't, then that's on them. It's not like if a guy meets a girl and sweet talks her into having sex with him by claiming to be relationship material. It's more like "you wanna fuck and I wanna fuck so let's fuck. Maybe we'll see each other again, or maybe not."

With all that being said, nobody is perfect. Sometimes swingers catch feelings. Maybe they want more than swinging.

This idea that swinging is unethical because you are not available for full partnership is ridiculous. Nobody owes you a relationship.

Are you addressing me? Or just sharing your opinion in general? I didn't say swinging was unethical. In fact, I said it shares the ethical non-monogamy umbrella with polyamory.

Also, I don't think anyone here is saying a person owes them a relationship. I don't know where that idea came from.

If you can love someone without holding them to the expectations of a full partner, then you'll be able to swing regardless of whether you develop romantic attachments. If how you feel is intrinsically linked to what you feel someone owes you, then you're going to be the swinger that gets dumped for falling in love.

This is a new and important idea I am learning here. Love can happen between 2 swing partners, but their "partnership" stops at one place on the relationship escalator. Of course, this can and does happen in polyamory too!

I think swinging and hierarchical polyamory are quite similar!

Swinging isn't healthy for lonely people who need love. It is for people who like to mix socialising and sex to some degree.

But that seems contradictory, since I thought you said it's OK to love a sex partner you swing with, as long as the "relationship" does not progress beyond a certain (arbitrary) point.

Also, if a swinger is single, and they meet another single swinger, I don't see an obstacle to the two of them falling in love and entering a "full relationship," going on to living together, sharing finances, house, marriage, kids, and the whole kit and kaboodle.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

In most areas in life, you can feel however you want about a person, what you cant do is show your feelings in ways that are problematic for that person or the people around them. On this site, we are welcome to hate each other. What we can't do is show that hate in very many ways.

The "bonding feelings" during sex, or the positive feelings period, do not always equate to "and therefore I will focus some of my life around you and us". This is something that is a natural occurrence for people and this is what swingers are often trying to avoid. Sometimes they might put things in place to avoid this chain of events.

I spoke to a regular swing friend about it today and exactly how they avoid people who will want more than they can give and he said that you just learn to sniff them out and it becomes obvious (to him) what women will become an issue in that way. He's fairly sure a regular partner feels very strongly about him but she's never created problems in either of their marriages by acting in ways that would be unwelcome or inappropriate. That's why they can still enjoy each other.

Swinging can look very much like a polyamorous relationship but it isn't one. Why? Because the people involved said so. Just like I can think a relationship appears to be a same sex relationship because of my interpretation of the people involved when in fact, the relationship is heterosexual because of how the people involved identify.

 

[Magdlyn]

In most areas in life, you can feel however you want about a person. What you can't do, is show your feelings in ways that are problematic for that person, or the people around them. On this site, we are welcome to hate each other. What we can't do is show that hate in very many ways.

The "bonding feelings" during sex, or the positive feelings period, do not always equate to, "And therefore I will focus some of my life around you and us." This is something that is a natural occurrence for people, and this is what swingers are often trying to avoid. Sometimes they might put things in place to avoid this chain of events.

Right. Understood. And that is what I mentioned in my first post. I listed some ways to avoid a deeper connection. Thanks for confirming that.

I spoke to a regular swing friend about it today, and asked exactly how they avoid people who will want more than they can give. He said that you just learn to "sniff them out." It becomes obvious (to him) which women will become an issue in that way.

He's fairly sure that a regular partner feels very strongly about him, but she's never created problems in either of their marriages by acting in ways that would be unwelcome or inappropriate. That's why they can still enjoy each other.

Thanks for asking him and reporting that!

Swinging can look very much like a polyamorous relationship, but it isn't one. Why? Because the people involved said so.

True. But it helps me to understand, as a polyamorous person, how certain kinds of swinging seem to be almost identical to hierarchical polyamory. That's interesting. And it can help me to relate better to swingers, which I think is a good thing.

Just like I can think a relationship appears to be a same sex relationship, because of my interpretation of the (gender of the) people involved, when in fact, the relationship is heterosexual because of how the people involved identify.

People keep bringing up sexual identity, but as I said above, sexual identity is not a choice ("I'm a woman, I'm a man, I'm a transwoman, I'm a non-binary transguy..."), but to swing or not to swing definitely is a choice. It's a form of relationship; it's not a personal identity.

I think there are cool things about the swingers I have met and had sex with. One was my ex bf Punk. He was in his 40s when we dated, but had done swinging for several years in his 20s. He respected the boundaries Pixi had about dating my bfs. She doesn't want to have sex with my bfs. Unlike other mono-minded guys I have dated, Punk understood this and kept his distance.

Another woman, an ex of Pixi's, was a practicing swinger. We had FFF sex with her when she came to visit us one time. And we also did a MFFF thing with her. (The M was one of my bfs. This was before Pixi and I decided she shouldn't have sex with my bfs, or vice versa.) She was very good at sex, I must say. But on the other hand, the next day, she shared pix of our sex that we'd taken, with a local male swinger friend of hers, and gave him my contact info, and didn't check with me if that would be OK! He messaged me and propositioned me, and I was shocked and embarrassed.

And finally, a guy that Punk and I had a MFM threeway with, was a current swinger. He was very good at doing me with Punk. He was more of a Dom than Punk, so kind of directed both of us as far as positions and activities, in a nice gentle fun way. Also, he was bi, but Punk wasn't, so he left Punk alone as far as intentional touching.

But he did lie to me about his future plans for us. He said he wasn't looking to get married to anyone, but he was actually dating a woman at the time who was seeking a husband, and he was considering her as well (they were Indian, it was an arranged dating situation). I didn't want to be dating him if I was going to get dumped as soon as he got engaged, or worse, if he planned to keep seeing me. and not tell her, thereby cheating. I was quite clear about this on our first date, but he lied to me.

So, that's my limited experience with swingers.

 

[vinsanity0]

"Sex positive...!" Ha! You know what a horndog I am. I am way more willing to talk about sex than most people, even people on this board. I'm no Puritan. I'm just polyamorous. I don't enjoy casual sex with mere bodies.

I didn't say swingers were shallow. I said I found Karen's first response shallow just because it, um, lacked depth. It lacked the depth of introspection I asked for and later got.

I didn't say swingers were broken. I asked if they were broken somehow, since they could seem to have sex but not have feelings develop, despite the bonding hormones that are released during sex. There is a huge difference between asserting something and just asking a question.

I do think there is objectification going on in swinging or casual sex. That almost seems to be a given. "We're here for sex, not a full romantic long term relationship. You're cute enough, let's go fuck."



I am allowed to have an opinion. I can judge without being judgmental (there is a difference, look it up).

And yes, as a kinky person, I can and do say, "Your kink is not my kink, and that's OK.".

Yes, I do know what a horndog you are...lol. That's why I was a little taken aback by your questions. They came off as passive-aggressive to me, like when a mono person says *what's wrong with those poly people." You know they aren't just asking. My apologies if that wasn't your intent.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is discipline. It takes discipline to be a swinger, just like it does to be mono. SPA hit that nail right on the head. One can have feelings for someone. It's only a problem if they act on them inappropriately. That's something we don't have to worry about as much in poly because it's fine to fall in love. Not that poly people don't need to have some discipline as well, like not letting NRE take over and hurt another relationship.

Do you think the objectification is harmful? I mean in general. I realize it's a turnoff for you.

 

[Magdlyn]

Yes, I do know what a horndog you are...lol. That's why I was a little taken aback by your questions. They came off as passive-aggressive to me, like when a mono person says, "What's wrong with those poly people?" You know they aren't just asking. My apologies if that wasn't your intent.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is discipline. It takes discipline to be a swinger, just like it does to be mono. SPA hit that nail right on the head. One can have feelings for someone. It's only a problem if they act on them inappropriately. That's something we don't have to worry about as much in poly because it's fine to fall in love. Not that poly people don't need to have some discipline as well, like not letting NRE take over and hurt another relationship.

Do you think the objectification is harmful? I mean in general. I realize it's a turnoff for you.

The funny thing is, I don't mind objectification in other ways. I like being called a slut, I like looking at porn.

Just, for me, there's something so... meat market-ish about the idea of the dancing part at (some) swinging clubs. The men are in street clothes, is my understanding, but the women are in lingerie type garb. I even read how, at one club, the women dance with men or with each other, and then at a certain time, a bell rings or something, and all the women take their tops off to expose their breasts.

I mean, that's perfectly fine, if that's what they want to do. It just turns me off so much! I can't help my negative visceral reaction. It just sounds so patriarchal. Demeaning. Male gaze oriented.

 

[ref2018]

The funny thing is, I don't mind objectification in other ways. I like being called a slut, I like looking at porn.

Just, for me, there's something so... meat market-ish about the idea of the dancing part at (some) swinging clubs. The men are in street clothes, is my understanding, but the women are in lingerie type garb. I even read how, at one club, the women dance with men or with each other, and then at a certain time, a bell rings or something, and all the women take their tops off to expose their breasts.

I mean, that's perfectly fine, if that's what they want to do. It just turns me off so much! I can't help my negative visceral reaction. It just sounds so patriarchal. Demeaning. Male gaze oriented.

You know what really grosses me out about SOME swingers (not all of them do this, but I have seen this discussed on reddit and elsewhere)?


The fact that they will fuck people whom they would never even want to be NEAR in some other context. Counter-culture types fucking law-enforcement, Christians fucking Atheists, Liberals fucking Conservatives, etc. Like, they don't even *want* to know what the other couple does or thinks as long as they have "chemistry". Blech.

This was a very judgmental post, and if anyone doesn't like it, I calmly and cordially invite them to go fly a kite.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Actually, there is a element of choice in how you present. That's why lots of trans people feel an extraordinary pressure to meet gender stereotypes in ways that aren't really relevant for cis people any more. Sometimes not meeting this stereotypes can mean that their gender dysphoria is dismissed which is particularly pertinent when trying to access gender confirmation surgery or other formal approaches to transitioning.

The rules swingers put in place both as individuals and at parties aren't normally (IME) to stop themselves getting too attached; it's to stop other people getting too attached to THEM. Plenty of poly identifying people avoid monogamous identifying people for the same reason, even though they know many people have happy and healthy mono-poly relationships. Or some avoid those who aren't in primary/nesting/entangled relationships because it reduces the chances of them seeking that with them.

You keep wanting to make it this thing where the swinger is trying to numb their naturally evolving feelings when it is often about trying to stop the chain of events on the other side. You can be sure that you are able to keep these distinctions but it is hard to be certain about other people.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

"That's something we don't have to worry about as much in poly because it's fine to fall in love. Not that poly people don't need to have some discipline as well, like not letting NRE take over and hurt another relationship."

Or balancing your existing commitments and limitations with the needs and desires of a new partner. I have a friend who has broken up with their "secondary" partner because they desire more entanglement (kids and the shared finances that come with them) with them (even if they also have them with someone else at some point). The "secondary" partner is more than aware that they could find someone else to have this with but sometimes, that isn't enough and you want that connection with someone specific. It's like someone wanting a very casual FWB type relationship and you'd love to marry them and live together. Sometimes you can't just be happy with what is on offer even if you could at one time.

 

[Vicki82]

Vicki, I'd love to hear more if you would share. I am concerned about the objectification, and "grossness."

icesong hit it pretty well. I'm used to, no until yes, from the kink community. The swing community is very much, yes until no. I didn't like the levels of casual touch without requesting consent, the really shallow negotiations, etc.

And I really didn't like having sex with someone and having the creepy single guys standing all around the bed masturbating. That's beyond gross.

 

[vinsanity0]

The funny thing is, I don't mind objectification in other ways. I like being called a slut, I like looking at porn.

Just, for me, there's something so... meat market-ish about the idea of the dancing part at (some) swinging clubs. The men are in street clothes, is my understanding, but the women are in lingerie type garb. I even read how, at one club, the women dance with men or with each other, and then at a certain time, a bell rings or something, and all the women take their tops off to expose their breasts.

I mean, that's perfectly fine, if that's what they want to do. It just turns me off so much! I can't help my negative visceral reaction. It just sounds so patriarchal. Demeaning. Male gaze oriented.

Well it IS a meat market...lol

One club I went to didn't have any women in lingerie, but they did dress sexy, like one might do if they are looking to attract people. Another didn't even allow sex or nudity. It was more of a place for swingers to meet. We used to go to the latter one just to hang out because it was a bottle club.

The first one did have stripper poles. That is becoming more common though as women become more open to their sexuality. I guess I see how that can be exciting. It wasn't so much to us as Cat and our companion for the evening were both strippers. That made it seem quaint.

I don't really see it as patriarchal. Women have the power to say no. It seems like a way for women to explore their sexuality in a relatively safe environment. The clubs I've been to limit the number of single men. Of course I'm assuming those women actually want to be there and aren't just attending to please their husbands.

 

[vinsanity0]

icesong hit it pretty well. I'm used to, no until yes, from the kink community. The swing community is very much, yes until no. I didn't like the levels of casual touch without requesting consent, the really shallow negotiations, etc.

And I really didn't like having sex with someone and having the creepy single guys standing all around the bed masturbating. That's beyond gross.

I agree with that last part. I wasn't expecting that because it was frowned upon at the kink club Sprite and I went to in Seattle. I am definitely not the exhibitionist type.

 

[PinkPig]

And I really didn't like having sex with someone and having the creepy single guys standing all around the bed masturbating. That's beyond gross.

That is creepy and gross. Idk if we left too early or if there club we went to just has a different vibe but thankfully I didn't witness this. Just lots of sex, exhibitionism, voyeurism, and the women in lingerie.

I had drinks with a man I was really attracted to who was a swinger (not at the club, just a date.) We were hitting it off great until he told me that he sent his wife off for a week with his BF for his business trip. They were swingers, in a quad. But the way he said it was like she was a possession he was loaning out. From his description it wasn't even clear to me whether she wanted to go. That was the end of that date!

 

[AlwaysGrowing]

icesong hit it pretty well. I'm used to, no until yes, from the kink community. The swing community is very much, yes until no. I didn't like the levels of casual touch without requesting consent, the really shallow negotiations, etc.

And I really didn't like having sex with someone and having the creepy single guys standing all around the bed masturbating. That's beyond gross.

Every club I've ever gone to has had strict rules on consent. I had someone grab my boob without asking one time. A volunteer saw my face as it happened and the guy (and his wife) were escorted out and banned for a month immediately. I saw multiple women get kicked out for doing similar to other women - nonconsual touching from women was a bigger problem than from men in my experience. They also all have had plenty of private spaces for sex where no one can see.

 

[Vicki82]

Every club I've ever gone to has had strict rules on consent. I had someone grab my boob without asking one time. A volunteer saw my face as it happened and the guy (and his wife) were escorted out and banned for a month immediately. I saw multiple women get kicked out for doing similar to other women - nonconsual touching from women was a bigger problem than from men in my experience. They also all have had plenty of private spaces for sex where no one can see.

Sure, they have rules. But I don't like people coming up behind me and giving me a hug or putting their hands on my shoulder without asking, etc. Swingers see that as normal and not sexual. Kinksters nearly without exception ask before touching at all.

No one is getting thrown out for touching someone's arm without permission and you'd be frowned at for making a big deal over nothing if you objected to it, but I don't enjoy it, frankly.

Sure, there are private spaces. But if I'm going to a club, I don't plan to be in a private room. I can do that at home But I don't expect to have people literally 6 inches from my face jerking off either.