Losing the battles so I can win the war

NeonKaos said:
I am sorry that you are having this dilemma; however, I am glad you didn't leave the forum like you thought about doing after you posted your first thread.

So I'm not sure if I understand correctly - did the three of you have this discussion face-to-face, or not?
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HA! The three of us talk together about this. Not going to happen. And I know that's not right. I know it's best if the three of us can sit and talk and not have me be the middle man, back and forth. I think J could deal with it now, although the first night when we had a chance, he wanted to talk to me alone, and that pissed B off and started us off on the wrong foot.

Sadly for me, B is not comfortable with this. He is so afraid of losing me. J lives 2 hours away. I can't even get B to talk with him on the phone or via email, even though they have known each other nearly 3 years. They were never close friends, not even friends, just friendly. And now B views him as a rival. B can't see how having J in my life enhances my feelings for him, B.

J probably would be more amenable to being poly and secondary, but there is no sense in my even talking to him about it until I can get B on board. I mean, what's the point in even broaching the subject if B can't deal?

J as a secondary relationship for me suits me so well. In my ideal world, I would have both. In reality, I have to deal with the current stipulations from B:

1. He can't even bear to hear me talk about J as a secondary relationship. I can only call him my friend.

2. He currently states (as of this morning, which is a change from last night), if he knew I was only going to have sex with J once, he could deal with it. He could even deal with my continuing to be friends with J if we only had sex once, and that would include my going up to see J, and not have overnights if B was not going to be away overnight. As of last night, I was not to have sex with J ever.

3. I can talk to J. I can talk about J. I can go and see J. B just can't see me having an ongoing sexual relationship with him.

J and I had already agreed to table sex for around 3 months to try to help B deal with his comfort level. I told B this.

There has been a subtle emotional shift in J since our visit that I'm picking up on. A bit more emotionally open to me and a bit more dependent on me for input and support in things, so not like J, from what I know of him.

B also has shifted to being more attentive and more loving, and crying a lot. It's so hard when a 6'4" 290 pound man cries in my lap like a baby.

B is so scared, and he has no need to be. But only time will heal this for him.

I really really really don't want to give up my friendship with J. I would much rather have a full relationship with him. That was the original intent, NSA sex, but I think B thought it would be a one-shot deal.

Now things are changing.

B is my heart, my soul, my life partner, my love, and my husband.

J is the counterweight to B. J is not a better man than B (what B thinks) but J is a different man from B. So very different in so many ways that the only things these two men have in common are gaming and me. That's it.

I'm hurting. I'm hurting for B, and his fears that I can't assuage. I'm hurting for myself for being torn and not being able to make B feel better because I refuse to lie to him about how I feel about J. And I hurt for J, for not even knowing yet the full extent of what's going on here. And it's not something I can tell him in email, and phone calls are limited now due to time constraints on both sides.

IF B cannot cope with this, I can't even begin to bring it up with J. I can't see that, and I surely can't see J and me presenting this to B. He will take that as an attack and as us ganging up on him.
 
Interesting convo with B this afternoon. He really is trying to process this, and it takes a lot of screaming, yelling, threatening, and roundabout things to get to the truth of the matter.

So, where we stand right now:

1. He does not want to give up "the lifestyle."
2. He likes when we do things together in "the lifestyle."
3. He does not want me to do things without him.
4. He thinks that J wants to, and will take me away from him.
5. He needs to hear from J that he does not want to take me away from him.

I think I can manage this. I told B I have to call J and talk to him about it, since our emails are reserved for silly stuff, and this is an important thing, so talking is the critical part.
 
Well it's been quiet for us.

B and I are both battling some weird virus that started with multiple cold sores. I even had a fever of 102 on Saturday. Then we moved to a cold. NOT FUN!

B has been so kind and cuddly and worried about me. Apparently in the 8 yrs we've been together. I've never been this sick. He is worried.

He is still struggling with my relationship with J, and yet he is letting it play out as best he can. We have had a lot of fights about this. :rolleyes:

This morning he said to me, "I hope you are better by the 8th so you don't have to cancel your date with J," half facetious, half serious. I asked him if he didn't want me better for the 31st, our anniversary. He's like, "I don't matter." UGH... I'm not feeding into his insanity.

B went shopping tonight after work. I took advantage of his being out and called J. It's not that I am hiding my contact and relationship with J. It's just that until his comfort level is higher, I am trying very hard not to impact on his time with me. It's like night and day. I can talk to J about how B is, or is not coping.

We talked about what B said this morning. J laughed.
We talked about the fact that B and I are fighting about him. J was so amazing. He said, "I knew that this was going to be hard on B." I asked him how, and he said, "Anyone who sees him can tell how much he loves you." I was floored. J continued. "I knew we were going to have to take this very slow." He really really amazed me with how aware of B's feelings and needs he is. So NOT what I was expecting from him. Again, this was supposed to be NSA sex, and clearly it's not that.

I told J that currently B is saying, "You two go at your own pace for sexual contact," and he was pleased. I am pleased, and yet nervous too. J and I have a date on January 8th, and now I'm attempting to placate B enough so that he can deal with my spending his racing weekend in February with J. It's like the only time of the year I can have an entire weekend with J without impacting on B's time. Currently that's our deal. My relationship with J cannot impact on B's time. That's not B's rule. That's what J and I decided was best for all of us.

We talked about how B thinks that J is going to steal me away from him. J and I feel bad for B, but there is a twofold reason we find this amusing.

1. J does not view me as a lifetime partner. I'm here for a season, or a reason, or both, but not forever.
and
2. B makes it sound like I have no free will. Apparently he seems to think if J wants me, I have no say in it. None. It's almost comical.

So, currently, things are on an even keel.

Of course, I want to be poly. I would love for B to find someone so he can deal with J, because I get the feeling J would and could deal with being poly.

I just can't see B ever feeling comfortable with the idea. But time will tell.

Sadly, I still think B hides his contact with other women from me. I was even talking to J about this, how B hides it. I think for him part of the thrill is not getting caught. But I always catch him.

Now he asks if when he is off next week can he spend time with his friend C. Yes, the one that gave him the BJ in the truck, and I'm like FINE, because, when I ask to go see J on that February weekend, and B says he doesn't want me to, I will bring up all the times he does what he wants and I never tell him no. And I'm going to go. I fear that it will still be a battle with B for me to go spend time with J that weekend. J and I need to talk about it more and decide how we want to approach this with B.
 
Well, it's been a long time since I've been here, and sadly I'm ranting about the same old stuff.

We have not moved forward much in terms of how B is dealing.

J and I have moved forward in our relationship. Sadly, I fear that my marriage may not survive, that does not bother me as much as it should.

B keeps telling me how insecure he is, how J is a better man etc etc etc... same old same old with B...

What's changing is my relationship with J is we've gone from sporadic emails and no phone calls to emailing almost daily, and several phone calls a week. We've had three visits and plan a weekend for President's day weekend. B is off racing that weekend, and I am free, so I am going.

J always said he would not give up gaming weekends or his one day off a week to see me. J always told me he was heavily scheduled and would need to fit me in. He lied. We've had two "spontaneous" visits, one at his request. We are friends. We are important to each other. There is sex, but it's not the most important part of our relationship.

I keep trying to talk to B and explain it to him, but he's too needy and I'm tired of being his mommy.

Since B knows about my friendship with J, it's not an affair, but it's not polyamory either.

I don't fit in with the affair-having people (thankfully) and yet I don't quite fit here either. :mad:

And I'm being selfish now.

B wants me to give up J, and yet he sits and texts and talks to his female friends, often in front of me, and thinks that's ok since they are not physically intimate. I told him I'd give up the physical part of my relationship with J, but that we like to visit, and that means overnights, since we are two hours apart. But that's not good enough. Of course, giving up his friends is an option, until I say, "OK, give them up and I'll give up J," then he says, "No, it's ok for now."

The one thing I've made him promise is that if he needs me to really end it with J, that I get one final visit with him to do it face to face. Ending a close relationship is not something to be done over the phone.

I'm at the point that I do not think I want to end it with J. So now I have to decide what I want to do. B is being insane and pushing me, and his neediness is sucking me dry.
 
Well, well, well, things have changed for us in the last week or so.

B has met a woman on OKCUPID who is local, married and very poly. He likes her. He likes her husband. He knows her husband's GF from high school. His new friend is willing to wait him out and see what develops, as B is not ready to take it to a physical level.

I think I like this woman. She's also a J. How funny is that? She constantly tells B that he needs to chill, that he needs to trust me and let me go and be with my J and see what happens, but to know that I'm always coming back to him.

B has seen his J a few times. They text and talk daily, a lot, which is more than I can say about my J and me. He is starting to spend more time with her. He was with her on Superbowl Sunday and will see her this Friday night. He's starting to relax about my time with J.

I am going to see J next weekend and I'm relaxing more and more about it. He's gone scarce on me, but I believe it's his pattern to do this before a planned weekend.
 
Ha. Thanks, NYCindie!

I'm getting very excited to go see J next weekend. It's our first time together for more than one night.

We had a small family crisis yesterday and while B's J was there for him emotionally, my J is nowhere to be found. That's hard for me. I have jealousy that even though B does not see his J as a sexual partner (she is waiting for him on this aspect of their relationship) he has total support and adoration from her already. She texts him emails him, IMs him, and talks to him daily. I'm very jealous of that.

I'm also very concerned that my J is not being honest with himself about how he feels about me. I don't know how to deal with this with him. I have asked him how he feels, and he told me, "After three visits up here, you don't have the right to ask me how I feel." *deep sigh* Yeah I do, but you don't have to tell me. But the anger and defensiveness tells me a lot more than you think.

My J is an addict and an alcoholic. I know this. It's not a good situation for him. But for what I want/need him for, it works for me. I just wish we could be there for each other more than we are.
 
How surreal is it that I'm upset about something J did (not) do, and B picks up on it, and asks, and he feels bad for me that J hurt me? Wow.
 
Ah, how things change yet more and more.

Friday night B went to be with his J. When he walked in at 4:30 in the morning he was all aglow, and I knew, and I was so happy for him. I pointed out that he should have just stayed the night with her, but he had not cleared it with me so he felt bad. He has guilt and he does not know why. His J is helping him work through this.

We went away Saturday morning. We had all day Saturday through Sunday afternoon away from everything.

Some fights about my J again, and texts between B and his J. But it was a GREAT time. We needed it.

We got home, and B, who is in total NRE rushed to be with his J because he won't get to see her for the next two weeks. He got home a bit after midnight, all forlorn. He and J had words over something she said that he took offense at. He overreacted because he was stressed about something else she spoke to him about.

It seems J is moving a bit faster than B is ready to do. She'd like a weekend away with him to discuss making their friendship a more formal arrangement. B is still not sure he's ready to be truly poly and is struggling with this. I keep talking to him and letting him know how very ok I am with this for him. We will see how it goes.

Meanwhile, I leave Friday afternoon to spend a weekend with my J. I'm excited about it. The first time we get more than one night together and the first time I'm comfortable enough to NOT have to talk about B and work through my feelings.
 
Thanks, Indie.

Sadly, my excitement was short-lived. B cannot handle this lifestyle, not really. He needs to be a cheater.

He was planning next weekend away with J4 (her name has 4 letters) and he can't go because we have prior plans. He lost it. He's insane, truly. He just can't figure this out. He is so lost, and I can't help him.

He can't deal with my being friends with my J. He can't see that I am not ending my marriage, that J is not a better man or more or anything, just different. He thinks that J is going to steal me away, LIKE I HAVE NO SAY in who I am with. He is insanely jealous of J and my friendship with him. He careens from:

you can be friends, to

you can't be friends, to

you can be friends and lovers, to

you can't be friends, to

okay, I'll try this for a couple of months...

I told him PICK ONE and STICK WITH IT. 🤯

I also told him if he picks "no contact for me with J" then he needs to have no contact with any of his female friends, and if he does, then I am ending the marriage. Not what I want to do, but he really wants to do what he needs to do, and not let me do it!

He is insecure and he has no self-esteem. I have told him he needs therapy. He won't go. I am getting sick and tired of this.

J and I talked about the fact that my marriage may not survive this mess, and that he would not be the cause of the breakup, but that B would blame him. And that our mutual friends (a large international community) would think that J was the cause of the marital break up. We know this is not true and we are prepping to deal with this as needed.

My relationship/friendship with J is not the problem. It's just bringing the problem to a head. Ending my friendship with J will not fix the problem. It will just put a Band-Aid on something that's pouring out blood and needs to be fixed. Sadly, B does not see this.
 
whatamIdoing said:
I told him PICK ONE and STICK WITH IT.
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How about you pick one and stick with it, and let B figure out how to deal with it?

I don't think you need to keep twisting yourself in all directions every time he waffles. You two have talked and talked and talked about it. Do you still feel you need his permission to be with J? I often see that people who waffle, and go back and forth in their insecurities, really just need to be told what to do. They want to know how things are gonna go, and underneath it all appreciate being told directly, firmly, lovingly. If you always make your actions conditional upon what B wants, you guys will never get anywhere.

He might be insecure because he feels there is an unknown element that can come into play. I sense that B needs direction or structure, which can come from you standing your ground and saying, "This is how it is." Not in a harsh way, but with respect, and yet leaving no doubt that this is a new stage in your relationship that he needs to cope with. It could help him to know what he's dealing with, and lead him to find solutions for handling everything, if you just tell B that you and J will continue, and he has to learn to trust that you won't leave him.

Just a thought.
 
I agree with NYCindie. Sometimes, when a partner is continually indecisive about an issue, you just have to say fuck it and do something to really see what will happen. This does however come with the responsibility of accepting what the outcome could be. His way of coping could be to leave you at the extreme end of the spectrum. On the other hand, you won't know unless you push it.
 
Indie and Mono, thanks. GREAT advice. And I think I can do that. I think I have to, really. And while I'm ok with B leaving me if he has to, I doubt he will.

I think I have no choice. B has made an appointment with the therapist. He sees her on the 24th. She is already seeing me about WLS issues and is well aware of what's going on with B, J and me. I told B that he could and should be totally open and honest with her, and he was, "She knows about J??? :eek:" and I'm like, "Yeah, of course. And she's OK with it, not judgmental at all."

I just worry that until B is more secure in himself and his feelings, and really believes I'm not leaving him, that I'm not physically safe when he gets upset.
 
whatamIdoing said:
I just worry that until B is more secure in himself and his feelings and really believes I'm not leaving him that I'm not physically safe when he gets upset.
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WHAT???!!! Are you saying there is potential for physical harm directed at you? That is a serious issue that needs addressing, Sweetie!
 
nycindie said:
WHAT???!!! Are you saying there is potential for physical harm directed at you? That is a serious issue that needs addressing, Sweetie!
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The other night he was in my face. I turned my back to him in bed and he flipped me over on my back by my shoulder. It's the first time he laid his hands on me in anger in 8 years together.
 
So J is an addict and alcoholic, and B is a time-bomb.

Sounds like you picked yourself a couple of real winners.

Maybe you should drop them both and figure out what it is about yourself that makes you pick partners with such... textbook issues.
 
NeonKaos said:
So J is an addict and alcoholic, and B is a time-bomb.

Sounds like you picked yourself a couple of real winners.

Maybe you should drop them both and figure out what it is about yourself that makes you pick partners with such... textbook issues.
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And I'm such a prize myself!
 
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