New and Scared

[River]

Maybe what I've written here makes my point more clear?

Sure! But you weren't really unclear to begin with. I merely wanted to point out that while we can bring all kinds of particular meanings to sex, sex itself has its own meanings independently of what we bring to it.

Oftentimes, we bring meanings to sex which we've not considered carefully at all -- such as the one where sex = loving (of a particular kind) which must be exclusive in order for it to be "real love" -- or expression thereof. That can be shown to be false, if we're willing to examine it carefully -- since "romantic" love of the most satisfying kind can be sexually and emotionally non-monogamous (which is a fact, not a speculation). That is, it is a fact if we can accept the testimony of the MILLIONS of people who experience it as such.

 

[Bangel]

Rough Day

Yesterday was a great day for Brynn and me. We went to the beach to help her parents with the cottage. A day filled with laughter and love.

Today I woke alone in bed and knew where she was, upstairs with Brody. All my emotions came running back. Why can I not remove these feelings? Why do I feel so alone in this? She is going away on vacation this week. I am sure it is to decompress from all that is going on in our lives right now. I tried to get her to talk the other night, but she just shut down on me. I needed her to talk about her fears in this, but she just does not want to talk about these things. Maybe I think it would help me if I knew she had the same fears as I do, or if she had any fears about this. I find myself sitting alone in our apartment like a benched player waiting to be called into the game.

Do any other monos feel this way?

 

[opalescent]

Sports and poly

There are all sorts of potential reasons why Brynn shut down recently. It might be she is overwhelmed with feelings and can't process any more, even if you need her to. She may not want to hurt you by openly discussing what's going on with her, your relationship, the relationship Brody. (Green Gecko has a recent thread that touches on this.) She might be so anxious and fearful of losing you, losing Brody, losing the life she knew, that she shuts down.

I know I shut down when I can't process something any more, because of pain, or exhaustion, or just too much-ness. I wish I had something more immediately helpful to suggest than being as patient as you can manage. And, yes, she needs patience with you too.

Also I was struck by the analogy of being the benched player waiting on the bench to be called in. You were the star player, let's say in basketball, and you're good, so there was no competition. Now, you are still a star but not the only one. To extend the analogy, Brynn is asking you to be a team player more than you ever have been before. This is very, very hard.

Also, there is the point at which the analogy breaks down. If you and Brynn are working towards ethical non-monogamy, you are NOT actually in competition with Brody for her. I have no doubt that it feels that way. But you are not replaceable; you can't be swapped out with a new model. You contribute something unique and irreplaceable to your relationship with her. Perhaps once Brynn can process and talk things out with you, that will become clearer.

 

[transitapparent]

Personally, as well as talking to my wife, I've found that talking with her BF calms my nerves sometimes. It's one thing to hear from her that everything is ok. It's something completely different to hear it from him. He and I have become fairly decent friends. I think we'll be better friends once I'm back in the country.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bangel]

I seem to be having issues with wanting to remain friends with Brody, I have such anger towards him. I know that Brynn gets frustrated with me because, no matter how many time she tells me that she loves me and will not leave me, she feels I do not listen. I hear her, but the words are hard to swallow. I guess that is the mono inside me, telling me that if she truly loved me, she would want to be with me and only me.

But then I guess the same argument can be made at me, that if I truly loved her, I would want her happy and to get everything she wants out of life! I really question if I can do this or not. I see a lot of success stories but also some pretty bad disasters. I think that sometimes I am the lone man here, 2 for, 1 against. Majority rules.

Having another hard day, if you haven't noticed. Sometimes it is nice to vent when I know the other two don't want to talk about it. Sorry I rant like I do, but I have to get this out, otherwise it festers and turns into another emotional outburst. Thank you all for listening to me.

 

[River]

"A Bun Dance" -- Rather than "Scare City."

if she truly loved me, she would want to be with me and only me

This is our present culture's default-setting assumption, to use computer talk. So, it is understandable that you might have difficulty imagining any other approach as valid, virtuous and real.

I can't help wondering if the myth of God creating Adam and Eve (rather than Adam, Eve, Steve, Robert, Anne, Jenny, Larry, and Joni ...) in the mythical original Garden isn't the basis of this fantastic notion about love. What could have caused us to cling to this dyadic image of the one and only "true love"?

Love is not like pie or cake or cookies. Unlike these, giving some away doesn't cause one to end up with less. One more often has more love when giving it to several than less. Why does Brynn's love of another seem to suggest she loves you less? These two facts are not necessarily related at all. I can appreciate huevos rancheros AND spaghetti marinara equally, and I do.

The source of love is a lackless awareness, really. It overflows with itself in abundance.

Which is why, I think, we should hold more bun dances. Dancing our buns we can learn to eradicate illusory scare-city.

 

[opalescent]

bun???

Which is why, I think, we should hold more bun dances. Dancing our buns we can learn to eradicate illusory scare-city.

River,

What the hell is "a bun dance"? Is it shaking one's booty? I love doing that, but have yet to achieve greater comprehension of the universe, or myself.

Bangel,

You do not need to be best buds with Brody. It's not required. In fact, you do not need to like him. But you will have to deal with him respectfully and honestly if you want to build a healthy non-monogamous relationship with Brynn.

I feel sometimes that when I tell my spouse that I love her and will not leave her, my words go into a black hole where they disappear and have no effect. She does not believe me. It's frustrating when a loved one seems not to believe in one's love, even when openly and often stated and shown through deeds, not just words.

There are some things I cannot 'fix' for my spouse. Difficulty with accepting love is rooted in her internal mental, emotional and spiritual landscape. I can't make her feel secure by words, and not immediately at least, by deeds. Ultimately, you are the only one who can provide security for yourself. This does not mean Brynn has no impact on you or does not have to do anything to help you feel more secure. Also Brody has a part to play in this, as well. Not talking to you does not help at all.

However, Brynn may be experiencing frustration similar to what I've felt over the years. Reassuring you may feel pointless if there seems to be no outward effect. Perhaps you can ask her what would be something you can say or do to indicate that you heard her - truly - tell you she loves you and will not leave. And, of course, she should not expect full acceptance or understanding overnight, or even anytime soon. But perhaps some token that you heard her, even as poly/non-monogamy is very undecided for you.

 

[IndieSolo]

You do not need to be best buds with Brody. It's not required. In fact, you do not need to like him. But you will have to deal with him respectfully and honestly if you want to build a healthy non-monogamous relationship with Brynn.

Just for clarification purposes, Brody already was Bangel's best friend:

My wife of 4 years, Brynn, has recently told me that she is in love with my best friend Brody... I have not spoken to my best friend in a week because I feel that if he were my friend he would have stepped away.

 

[SNeacail]

You do not need to be best buds with Brody. It's not required. In fact, you do not need to like him..

I think this may be part of the problem. If I read it correctly, Brody was Bangel's friend first. I imagine it might feel like Brynn stole the friend and the friend stole her, so two losses at once. Logically, we know that's not really how it is, but gut reaction and emotions are not always ruled by logic and fact.

Sorry I don't have any advice to offer.

 

[River]

a bun dance

What the hell is "a bun dance"? Is it shaking one's booty? I love doing that but have yet to achieve greater comprehension of the universe, or myself.

"A bun dance" is a dance we do to celebrate or create abundance.

The way to create abundance is to realize it. That's seeing with your real eyes (which are discovered in part, in the center of your chest).

To realize abundance, we merely have to realize that it is already here with us, as a more-than-infinite supply of love -- more love than any of us could imagine; more love than we know how to open to. More love, for sure, than we'll ever understand or grasp.

We do "a bun dance" because when we begin to see with our real eyes the true nature of love, it makes us giddy and want to shake our stuff right off, all that stuff that keeps us from realizing the abundance. Or because the notion of a "Scare City" (scarcity of love) is hospitalization-funny, so funny that you'll rip your stomach muscles realizing it. And it's that sad, too. So we laugh because it's both that sad and that funny.

The true nature of love? It is abundant. All one has to do is open up to it, give it, appreciate it, and it expands without limit.

Also true about love is that it is the prime value in existence. More so, it is the very heart and core of existence. Think of it. It's absolutely free; it expands when given away, or even appreciated; it never runs out; it is more than infinite in supply; it is valuable beyond any measure or comprehension. How good is that?

When we clutch at it and want to control it, or offer it out in dribs and drabs, teaspoonfuls; when we make laws and rules and concepts like prison bars around it, we have "Scare City," which is hospitalization-sad and hospitalization-funny.

Our world is sick with "Scare City," which calls for "a Bun Dance"!

 

[transitapparent]

I seem to be having issues with wanting to remain friends with Brody. I have such anger towards him. I know that Brynn gets frustrated with me because she feels no matter how many time she tells me that she loves me and will not leave me she seems to think I do not listen. I hear her but the words are hard to swallow. I really question if I can do this or not. I see a lot of success stories but also some pretty bad disasters. I think that sometimes I am the lone man here, 2 for 1 against. Majority rules. Sometime it is nice to vent when I know the other two don't want to talk about it. Sorry I rant like I do, but I have to get this out, otherwise it festers and turns into another emotional outburst.

I've been there. My wife was friends with her BF in high school. They lost contact for a long time then reconnected on Facebook. When I first met him, I wasn't sure whether to punch him or shake his hand. I took the road less travelled and shook his hand. We are slowly becoming friends and I find that we can talk about most anything.

She has told me countless times how much she loves me, how she won't ever leave me, and even how much her BF respects me. It took a while for me to start believing it.

 

[Bangel]

Thank you all for your support and insight.

I have started to read the book "The Secret of Letting Go" to see if this will help me to release my fears and become more comfortable with this. I love Brynn more than anyone I have ever loved. I want her to get everything out of this life she can. I know that this will be difficult and especially not easy for me, but I need to do this for her, and hopefully I will be reciprocated for my efforts. I know I cannot count on this and should not be thinking of myself, but I need to be aware, as do they, of my needs, as well. My needs and wants should be met as well, right? I pray that this does not blow up in our faces. (Wrong way to think, I know.) She still has not made the final decision, but I am sure she will decide to do this.

 

[River]

My needs and wants should be met as well, right?

I think what works best is for us to look upon all of our relationships as opportunities to share and expand our loving, and this includes the receiving and giving of love. Though, ultimately, we realize that love transcends even giving and receiving, since it is part of our essential nature. It's not just about giving and giving all the time. Part of the practice of opening to love is learning how to receive it, allow it in.

But if you want to experience a vast improvement really fast in your love life, examine closely, by feeling into it, what the source of love is. We make a mistake when we see our partners as our source for love and ourselves as one in need of that substance, out there, over there. And this image of love can be dreadfully difficult to give up (especially for a guy like me, who wasn't loved properly as a child). We will cling to an image of love when we're not growing in the experience of love, because we're too hungry and desperate to let go of the surrogate. Any image of love is a surrogate for love, which is why I'm practicing releasing all such images.

This doesn't mean that we alone must be the source of love. That's not it, either. The problem with this notion is that we ourselves are not we alone. We're always with-together. We're together with all of life, all of Earth, every plant, animal and person, the whole universe in all of its unfathomable dimensions.

This ultimate and universal togetherness of all things is itself love. The source of love is quite literally everything! This is a radically different notion of love than the one we were raised up with, which imagined love as scarce, limited, small. And we are this. Scarcity is just a sad illusion.

 

[Bangel]

I have a question. Is it not a choice to put yourself in a position to fall in love with someone? It's not like it happens overnight. You feel yourself connecting to someone, becoming attracted to someone. It seems that you have a choice to put yourself in that position. Is it that monos are more sensitive to this happening and polys don't until it is too late and they are in love? Or is it that polys get a rush from this feeling and choose to allow the feeling to overcome them? I know from my personal experiences that I will remove myself from a situation if I start to have these feelings, not that I cut all ties with someone, but I will pull back and look at the situation and decide that this is not what I want, and I do not want to hurt my partner. Don't get me wrong, I have friends that are girls, that I care for, but I keep myself under control as to not fall in love with them. The love I have for them is not romantic in nature.

 

[Carma]

You gave me something to think about today, Bangel. Looking back, I sometimes wish I had responded in the mono way you describe, rather than the poly way. Once I fell in love, it was too late. We're making the best of it now. But in the future, I think I would choose the route of distance/resistance.

Wow, does this make me "mono," caught in a poly life?

I have embraced polyamory because it was the best option when I found myself in love with two people at the same time. I couldn't rewind the clock, go back and "unlove" or will myself to fall out of love.

But, would I seek this out, intentionally? Well, no -- because both my husband and my boyfriend are mono! It would be totally different if they wanted to embrace a tribal lifestyle, because I believe I would love that. But my husband is tolerating this, and my boyfriend sees it as a temporary arrangement.

It's very carpe diem, which is okay, but it can be hard to grasp. It is also very private, which is a challenge for me. If they wanted to stand on a mountain, all three of us, and proclaim their love for me and let me proclaim mine for them, that would be utopia for me! But since this is such a secretive way to live and love, due to their reservations, fears, beliefs, male pride, whatever, frankly, I will be relieved to someday have it be over. When my boyfriend moves on, into a traditional relationship, all I hope is that he will be happy. Then I can move on, as well. My husband and I will move forward as a couple. We will have learned and grown from this experience.

I do have sadness, because "I have a dream...." of us all together with our kids, playing and picnicking and sharing the duties of raising a family and running a household, pooling our resources, going camping and going dancing, meeting each other's families and challenging them to open their hearts and minds... But I have to accept the reality that this is my fantasy, not theirs.

Notice the nicknames for my men. I am in love with two macho cowboys! The mere fact that they have even agreed to this V arrangement, even temporarily, is a fucking miracle in itself!

 

[SNeacail]

I have a question, is it not a choice to put yourself in a position to fall in love with someone? It is not like it happens overnight. You feel your self connecting to someone, becoming attracted to someone. It seems that you have a choice to put yourself in that position. Is it that monos are more sensitive to this happening and polys don't until it is to late and they are in love? Or is it that polys get a rush from this feeling and choose to allow the feeling to overcome them? I know from my personal experiences that I will remove myself from a situation if I start to have these feelings,. Not that I cut all ties with someone, but I will pull back and look at the situation and decide that this is not what I want and I do not want to hurt my partner. Don't get me wrong, I have friends that are girls that I care for, but I keep myself under control as to not fall in love with them, or the love I have for them is not romantic in any nature.

I have spent my life pulling back from people to avoid feelings. Now 20 years into my marriage, I only have one close friend (and not really anyone I would want to sit by my side if I was in the hospital, other than family). It's not that I even wanted a "romantic" relationship with others, I just felt that I wasn't supposed to be that attached to these others, so I kept everyone at arm's length, After all, I was only "supposed" to have these feelings for my husband. It's a very lonely, empty way to live and feeds unhappiness and resentment.

My husband has a strong emotional attachment with a lady (non-sexual). He did not go out looking for this; it just evolved over the years. I had the feeling of being replaced and no longer necessary in his life. This was not true, of course, and now I can see where we both have very different things to offer. I am no longer under preassure to participate in things I really don't enjoy doing, and at the same time I know there is someone there to look after him in my absence.

We are not in a place where sex with others is even an issue yet. I'm sure that will bring to the forefront a whole new set of issues for both of us.

 

[Bangel]

I have no problem with a non-sexual relationship, and would actually encourage this, due to the fact that people offer different things to different people. The source of most of my anguish is over the fact that they wish to have the same type of relationship that my wife has with me, including physical. Her words, not mine. Why do I have such an issue with this? Why does this bother me more than the emotional relationship? Maybe I do put too much on the physical. Maybe I lack in the emotional, and that was what she was looking for, and now they feel it needs to go to the next level because that is the natural course of things.

 

[IndieSolo]

I had the feeling of being replaced and no longer necessary in his life. This was not true, of course, and now I can see where we both have very different things to offer. I am no longer under the pressure to participate in things I really don't enjoy doing, and at the same time, I know there is someone there to look after him in my absence.

We are not in a place where sex with others is even an issue yet. I'm sure that will bring to the forefront a whole new set of issues for both of us.

I'm curious, do you feel you are closer to that? Is that even what your husband's friend would want? Maybe she's happy with things the way they are, and doesn't want it to go further, but do you think you will ever embrace having additional relationships?

 

[SNeacail]

Do you feel you are closer to that? Is that even what your husband's friend would want? Maybe she's happy with things the way they are and doesn't want it to go further, but do you think you will ever embrace having additional relationships?

Oh, they are completely happy with things as they are, and knowing her, I NEVER see it going any further physically. I am completely open to either or both of us having additional physical relationships, but we haven't really discussed it yet. (We have been working on solving some other issues we had.) I just don't see myself going out of my way to set up "dates." I am actively trying to expand my circle of friends and activities to stuff I enjoy, with the freedom that I don't have to censor and control my feelings. (Actions, yes.) I had a list of things I needed to do for myself. I think I'm only on number 2 or 3, and we are about 9 months into trying to fix things.

 

[ClosetPoly]

Fears...

Bangel, I have just recently entered a poly-mono relationship where my wife has started a relationship with one of my best friends. She has felt poly for years, but has just recently admitted to herself and to me that she does in fact love someone else with the same intensity as she does me. I had very many of the same reactions you are having. And I still struggle, oh believe me, but I have already learned a few things:

- Why am I not enough for her? You ARE. Or rather, YOU are. You can be everything she needs from YOU, but not everything she needs in life. No one can. And some people have the amazing gift to not only feel "like" and "appreciate", but also intense love for another person. This does NOT mean you share her. I still get that feeling over and over, and the only thing I can do to cope is to tell myself the truth. I do not SHARE her. She has two very distinct and separate compartments in her heart. I am in one, here OSO is in the other.

- Can you not choose to not love someone? Ask a parent of two or more kids, "Whom do you love the most? Pick one, give the other one away. You can only pick one." I think most people would consider that inhumane and cruel. At some point along the way, we lose the ability to feel this. We are programmed into monogamy.

Now, it seems you have had an extremely rough start, but I would highly recommend trying the following:
Tell your wife in a calm and positive manner that you don't understand her point of view, the concept of sharing her scares you, and you have flailed at her. Ask for her patience and tell her you love her.
Then, go get yourself a book. Not a computer, but a notebook and a pen, and start writing. If you are adept at writing on a computer, it won't help you. Start writing down how you feel, what scares you, and if you use the word "jealous", stop right there, and spend time examining what the word means. I bet you a cold beer you can replace it with "afraid" most of the time.

There are some VERY wise people on this forum, listen to them. It has already helped me immensely.

Make peace with your friend. You'll need him. And he needs you. Your wife needs you too. But for every time you flail and confuse and scare her, you push her a little bit further away. If she is truthful about choosing you as her primary, if she IS really poly, this is terrifying for her too.

I have used rivers as an analogy to explain to my partner what I feel. I see her in front of me, and a river flows between us. It's deep and wide, warm and calm, yet can still be frothy and steaming. Between her and her OSO, in another direction, the river is churning, frothing, overflowing and intense....and narrow...and shallow... I know it's difficult to pull yourself away from that river, cause it looks more exciting, and yes, right now it IS.

It's like the new car smell. Live in the knowledge that it fades.

That river will calm down too. It may, if you're lucky, merge partly with yours, or it might not. But trust in your own river. Pour yourself into YOUR river. Don't try to swim their river. You are not a part of it. Just remember to be a part of yours. And love yourself. You are not defined by her love for you, but by YOUR love for yourself!

When you have written all of this down, tidy your fears into wants and needs. What can you live with? Do you trust yourself enough to trust your wife? What is the bigger picture? What does she want in the long run? Asking her what she wants in the long run, in a CALM setting, non-confrontational, non-sulking, can give you surprising answers.

*hugs*