How can I be "less"?

I

islandgy9

Member
Okay, I'm stuck.

I have gone back and forth, round and round. I could really use a different perspective on how to accomplish getting past a seemingly obvious impasse in a relationship. I need help achieving fluidity (in the dynamics of the relationship, not as in fluid bonding, just to make sure we are all on the same page here).

I've posted before and several of you have been wonderfully compassionate and empathetic. Others inspired a deeper exploration of core beliefs that stripped me naked, forcing me to decide how I want to live my life, and how I want to love in my life. I now believe there are choices of how one wants to love, yes, choices, that is, if one chooses to love at all. It is an individual's choice as to what love is, be it unconditional, or refined, or something in between. The "success" of your love depends on the compatibility of the individuals involved in relation to their ideals of love.

The irony is, I truly believe this, but I can't seem to apply it with my girlfriend.

The confusing part is that I have the capacity of being a friend and more. My gf and I both have them active in our lives presently. Be that as it may, agree or disagree, here is my question: Why can't I be "less" for my girlfriend?

My question started getting long, so the following is more of the same, with relevant quotes from my girlfriend.

My gf and I have incompatible ideals for what we want in a relationship, simple as that. She does not want what I do. I want much more involvement with her than she does with me. I know this, she knows this, yet I can't manage to simply be an occasional lover.

She feels this way: "I can be SOME of your life, and someone you can lean on and talk to, but not ALL of anything." Straightforward and honest.
The issues have been identified; we have been completely honest; we have come a long way in communicating our wants; everything is known and understood. I suppose you could say we have irreconcilable differences.

After almost two years of struggle, I have to get past this, for both our sakes. I know she can't give me what I want, and she is too kind to tell me to f-off.

I have stopped kidding myself that she might change her feelings, but I can't seem to move on from mine. I can't seem to downsize my feelings and simply enjoy what she can offer. There seems to be a specter-like presence that is awkward, to say the least. She said recently: "My lower back, and my hands (where I carry tension) hurt over the past couple days, when I thought about seeing you." I don't want her to feel this way.
 
I think your first step might be not to think of it as downgrading the amount you love her, or loving her less. What she is asking for is for the relationship to function differently. That means changing actions, not the intensity of your love.

Loving someone completely and fully, includes the parts that mean your relationship is going to be shaped differently than you feel like you want. Right now, I say, "feel like you want," because it doesn't sound like you've been able to give what she is asking for a fair shot just yet, and that might take time.

Remember it's okay to ask her for help. Make sure you are clear and detailed about what she is asking for. I understand that what she is asking for might seem like "love me less," but really, it is about the actions you are taking that make her feel smothered. Try to find out how she would like you to act. Give it a shot. See how it feels. See if some things work at lessening your stress; see what makes it worse. Pay close attention to your feelings and keep her informed about how it is working for you.
 
Loving someone completely and fully, means your relationship is going to be shaped differently than you feel like you want. I say "feel like you want," because it doesn't sound like you've been able to give what she is asking for a fair shot just yet, and that might take time.
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My girlfriend Maya is extremely independent. She relishes time on her own, by herself, doing her own thing most of the time. When I asked her the following question: "Ideally, how much time per week would you like to spend together?" her reply was three days/nights a week, with texts/phone calls in between.

Most guys I know would give their right arm for a part-time relationship like that. I imagine most poly folk would like that too, because it allows time for other loves. I have tried for about a year to adjust from my desire for a full-time relationship, i.e., a live-in situation, to basically finding other things to do alone, when I would much rather be sharing experiences together.

I'm the kind of guy that truly enjoys the combined energy two like-minded people share. I know there are some folks, both poly and mono, that place autonomy in the highest regard. Well, after soul-searching this, I have decided to hold my ground on my beliefs through experience that there is, FOR ME (not yelling, just emphasizing) a beautiful third energy created by establishing a soul-based intimacy that has only happened in relationships where a significant portion of each day and night are spent literally together.

I fully understand this must be wanted by both partners. But I have lived it, and for me and my partners at the time, it was the most wonderful thing I have ever experienced. It's not chemicals/NRE, it's real, an ever-present sense of energy shared by two (possibly more, I suppose), that only happens with time. If confronted about this wonderful soul-based shared energy, third-entity state of being that I know exists, I'll explain further.

I want to experience that feeling again on a full-time basis. I suppose it's not for everybody. Maya does not want it. I understand she can't offer any more than she is. I just don't know how to love her fully when she prefers to be elsewhere, or how to feel fulfilled with three days a week, when any more than that makes her feel like she needs to get away.

I'm not denouncing autonomy and independence, if that's what works for the relationship, I want more involvement, that's all. I'm trying to find a way to be more fluid.
 
Islandgy9,

You are quite clear on what you want-- a relationship where you and the loved one (or more than one, perhaps) would live together, spend most of your free time together, and develop mutual interests. This seems to be your preferred style of developing deep connection and intimacy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. There is nothing wrong with you for wanting this style of relationship.

But you can't have this with Maya. She is also very clear that she does not want this style of relationship, and there is nothing wrong with that either. You and she are fundamentally incompatible, despite your mutual love and best efforts.

It's time to break up, move on, and let each other find others who fit better. I'm so sorry, but this is a deal breaker. One should never make oneself 'less' for another person, even out of love.
 
opalescent said:
Islandgy9,

It's time to break up, move on, and let each other find others who fit better. I'm so sorry but this is a deal breaker. One should never make oneself 'less' for another person, even out of love.
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Or you can continue to date her as a part time relationship and look for someone to fill the need that you have of spending the majority of your time with someone. There really isn't a need to throw away a relationship that is working in other areas.
 
multiples

IG,

This is a good expression of what is on your mind. Be that as it may, you have multiple caring relationships of varying degrees of intimacy and intensity, both physical and emotional. Narrowing your focus to what is "traditionally" and generationally accepted in our American society, i.e., marriage, or a committed, monogamous relationship between a man and a woman, with the occasional dish on the side that no one talks about, is powerfully ingrained in the tail-end of the Baby Boomer era we hail from.

You opened my mind to sooo much and it has been a wondrous time to see that life and loves, like fireflies on a still summer night, are all around. Sometimes one firefly lights on a hand, and stays, another lands, then flits away.

This forum feels like a home for people who think like me. I always felt so out of place NOT following "the route" almost every woman of my age I know, has tried and succeeded at, or tried and failed at, multiple times.
 
islandgy9 said:
When I asked her the following question: "Ideally, *how much time per week would you like to spend together?" her reply was three days/nights a week, with texts/phone calls in between. Most guys I know would give their right arm for a part-time relationship like that.
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I'm not saying this because of being poly or mono or anything, but, how can seeing each other three times a week with calls and texts in between be even remotely considered "part-time?" That seems quite involved to me. It seems you want to be joined at the hip or something. I can see how that would come across to her as being needy and smothering.

I think the important thing for you is to explore why you see frequency of a relationship as the thing that indicates satisfaction and fulfillment in it. I think you might want to find ways to enjoy your alone time. It's not always necessary to be in someone's presence physically to feel a meaningful connection to them or that you share an energy.
 
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NYC wrote:
I'm not saying this because of being poly or mono or anything, but how can seeing each other three times a week, with calls and texts in between be even remotely considered part-time? That seems quite involved to me. It seems you want to be joined at the hip or something. I can see how that would come across to her as being needy and smothering.
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Well, NYCindie, I know many people would consider 3 days very part time. I fully realize all relationships are different, and some people require/need their alone time more than others, perhaps to keep their sanity, because they simply can't be around one person for extended periods.

But please, some of us actually enjoy sharing the company of another, a lot of time. We enjoy interacting, simply feel good being around a kindred spirit. (thank you, M, for that great term.) I don't know why some people have such a hard time believing, or rather simply accepting, that some of us feel joy, closeness and great intimacy all the time when we are with someone we care about, day in, day out, every day.

Some of us don't consider that smothering, we call it companionship. Some of us don't consider it needy, we call it generous, and we welcome it with open arms. Just sayin.'
 
I would much rather do things with Karma than do them alone. Even our day-to-day, he's playing video games and I'm on the computer, but we are still sharing space, sharing energy, and available should interest in another activity arise.

Karma needs his space. It is a concept completely foreign to me. I do enjoy some alone time, but I don't even realise I need it until he's gone.

I don't think it makes either of us any more or less needy. It's just who and how we are. We've both adjusted and adapted over the years. And it's not like I ever told him he couldn't have a guys' night, or couldn't go do something he wanted. I don't 'need' to have him with me 24/7. It's just something I enjoy.

I think if you are wanting to keep this going, you are going to need to adapt, or make this a part-time relationship and find someone who can meet those needs for you.

While some goals the two of you have may be the same, or similar, some obviously are not, and if it affecting her physically from carrying the tension, it's time to reevaluate things.

It shouldn't be about making yourself less. You should never desire to be less than you in order to please someone else.
 
islandgy9 said:
Some of us actually enjoy sharing the company of another, a lot of time. We enjoy interacting, simply feel good being around a kindred spirit.
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Met too! But I think of part-time as someone I would only see maybe once every other week, once a month, or something like that. I would think that regularly seeing someone three times a week, with contact every day, would appear to most people to be a full-time serious relationship. I'm not saying it's weird to want more than that, but I just think it is odd to call it part-time, especially with contact via email or text in between... and when it's a bf/gf situation, two people living on their own. Obviously, a spouse, or someone you lived with, would be different, and it'd make sense to want more.

islandgy9 said:
I don't know why some people have such a hard time believing, or rather simply accepting, that some of us feel joy, closeness and great intimacy all the time when we are with someone we care about, day in, day out, every day.
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Wouldn't being in contact with her on the days you're not physically together take care of that?

I don't have a hard time believing you want to be in close proximity to feel closeness and intimacy, but I also think it's possible to feel those things with less contact, if one is secure in oneself and in the relationship. I totally get your point, but was just saying that it's possible to feel that connected with less contact, and that I also totally understand your gf's stance that every day is too much. I only mentioned that she might feel smothered because someone else had brought that up before I did -- but it could be that the pain she's feeling is not really about the frequency of being with you, but about the fact that you're feeling unsatisfied with what she wants. Maybe the feeling that she will always disappoint you is what is draining on her.

BTW, is this a poly or a mono/poly situation?
 
NYC wrote:
Wouldn't being in contact with her on the days you're not physically together take care of that?
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Nope, not for me. I understand what you are saying, I think. I understand the concept. But I am most happy with everyday, physical, live-in contact.

You brought up a good point about bf and gf vs. being married, or at least living together. You're right, we aren't married, not do we live together.

None of this is a surprise to me. Maya has stayed her course consistently. She has never led me to believe she wanted a live-in situation, and has always maintained more or less utter bafflement as to why anyone would want to get married.

I, on the other hand, love the idea of being married. I was married twice, once perhaps too young, and the other marriage I ruined by cheating. I learned from both of them, unfortunately at a great cost, about what I want and need. Now I am being open and honest about it.

Well, that's not quite accurate. Maya cannot picture herself getting married. She's said that even as a child it didn't make sense to her. I know all this. However, Maya is the only person I have ever known who truly accepts me as I am. I feel foolish for not being able to let go.

But it could be that the pain she's feeling is not really about the frequency of being with you but about the fact that you're feeling unsatisfied with what she wants. Maybe the feeling that she will always disappoint you is what is draining on her.
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I believe this to be true.

Is this a polyamorous, or a mono/poly situation?
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Neither, really. Maya said she was "done" talking about an ongoing but improving double-standard issue I have (which is a great source of frustration for me-- I have trouble dealing with her "others," when I have my own others). Although I have significantly downgraded that to the point of acceptance, with some joy felt, that she is enjoying the company of another, I like to, need to talk about it. She is tired of it. I have tried to honor that.

So basically, we are taking a break. I haven't seen her for over two weeks. We've had some texts and an email.

Maya has a "favorite bud" that lives about two hours away that she communicates with almost daily (I think), texts mostly. He's a good guy. They get together every month or so. She communicates with a couple of guys fairly regularly that she's met online but hasn't met in person. She has recently started communicating with an old friend, too. They went out to dinner recently. Also, I think she has a dinner date this weekend with one of her online friends.

Maya has two significant others to whom she wouldn't disclose that she and I were physical, so I stopped the sexual aspect, and have been encouraging her to be truthful with them. No more deceit for me.

I have an old friend that was "more," that I see every other week or so for a beer. I also have two MF couples that I get together with every few weeks for threesomes. I recently started meeting with the wife of one of the couple's alone, at her husband's request, with her consent, for an hour or so before her husband joins us. I was apprehensive about this, but he really seems to like thinking of her and me being together alone, then joining in.

A big part of my couples thing is I really like helping the couple enjoy each other even more. Knowing I helped give them pleasure together as a couple is a large part of it for me.

I honestly don't know if this is polyamory. I know it's not monogamy!
 
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IG, for a moment when reading this I thought you must have been someone I know. Much of your story sounds just like his, but he is 4 or 5 years down the road from where you are now. Naturally, everyone's life is unique, but here's how things turned out for my friend and his girlfriend.

For 4 or 5 years, they were in a relationship (not open). He wanted her to move in with him. She wanted to keep her own home an hour or so away. She would come stay with him 3 nights a week. He always wanted more. Sometimes she said she would eventually want more too, and sometimes she said she just couldn't. A few times they broke up over it, and got back together.

Several months ago they finally called it quits, after years of struggle, and it has been terrible for both of them. They love each other dearly, but the constant push-pull made it too stressful all the time. I think if they had ended it much sooner they would have saved themselves a lot of heartache and grief.

Can you love your girlfriend as a friend (with or without the extras) and seek someone else for your full-time partner?
 
IG, if you want a "kindred-spirit" romantic relationship, then you need to pursue it with someone who wants the same thing, because anything less is not going to satisfy you in the way you want it to, and you will always wonder what a relationship like that would be like.

I was once in a relationship like you are, and I knew deep down that it was not what I really wanted. I think you know this, too. Maya will not satisfy your relationship needs in the way you want it. It is upsetting to come to this realisation, but it's the truth, and it's better to face up to the truth than to be in denial. You should not sell yourself short, because being in that kind of relationship is as awesome as you dream of. I'm forever grateful that my previous relationship ended, because the guy I'm with now is beyond my dreams of my perfect beloved.

What you do with your current relationship is up to you. If you're into polyamory, then you can continue it, but you might want to gently end it and have some single time to yourself to clear your head and refocus.
 
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There are probably some married couples out there that spend less time together than people who see each other a few times a week. Some men may actually see their administrative assistants more than they see their wives. I guess you can't categorize a "full-time" relationship as seeing someone every day.

I typically spend two nights a week with my gf, heading to her place straight from work. This means, at most, I am with my wife for only five nights, unless I have another date, or she has a date herself, in which case it is even less. Then there are all the other activities she may want to do, which take her out of the house. None of this makes my wife a part-time relationship. Seeing less of each other has not diminished our relationship.

I do understand the desire to be in Maya's life every day. After all, that is why I left my country to be with my wife. It's that comforting feeling of knowing there is somebody at home, waiting for you. Personally, I don't like being alone. Whenever my wife is out on the date, and I am alone for the night (and the kids are in bed), I feel a little lonely. Yet, even if my wife were at home with me, it is possible that we'd both be busy doing our own stuff.

Human wants are weird. It's like wanting a new toy, and then never playing it when we finally have it.
 
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Just my two cents

I love spending all my time with my partner. Even if we are set to separate tasks (say, he's working in the yard and I'm cooking dinner) the energy of his presence is comforting to me. Some call it co-dependent. Maybe it is. We both feel the same way, so it works for us. Because we are also polyamorous, and want to date other people, it is hard. Dating requires making a conscious choice to take time apart to foster new relationships that obviously aren't going to immediately meld into our day-to-day lives.

I have learned to accept people that I am dating as part-time. They don't need to fill the full-time role that my live-in partner fills. I enjoy each relationship for what it is and what it brings me.

I would suggest, and this is only my opinion, that you carry on with Maya. You obviously care a great deal about her. Take it for what it is. Enjoy the time you spend together. Also leave yourself open to finding someone who can meet your needs for something live-in. I would agree that there is nothing wrong with wanting this. I just wouldn't want to give up on the great connection you have with Maya to get it.

My two cents...
 
Thank you

Wow... I don't have time right now to be specific, but thank you all for trying to help me. I am truly touched that you have taken the time to offer your thoughts.

Maya can simply let her conundrums go with a smile, it seems. Mine drive me nuts, but I usually figure them out and come to terms with them. This one has a good grip.

You all are helping me see different options. Thank you. Keep 'em coming! More later...
 
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