A sticky issue of threesomes and consent

[lunabunny]

Okay, so here's the deal with the disastrous threesome I've discussed elsewhere on this board:

As someone who experienced sexual abuse within a relationship when quite young - and ended that relationship after an unplanned threesome went very wrong - I vowed I'd never get involved in anything resembling non-monogamy, a "love triangle", or group sex EVER again. The whole idea of polyamory seemed vaguely sleazy to me.

That was until decades later when I became involved in my current relationship - a closed poly V - last year. Still I remained somewhat uncomfortable; especially when I found myself being gently coerced into expanding our relationship to include intimacy between all three of us in a group setting.

My partners assured me it didn't have to be a big deal, but that communication was key. We all agreed that we should take it slow, have condoms on hand, decide on a "safe word", and that nobody should feel obligated to go along with anything they didn't want to do. Nor should we be drunk or impaired.

I explained to B that because of my social anxiety and past issues with abuse, as well as the fact that I'd be the "new girl" (they used to be casual sex partners), I MAY find it hard to ask for what I need, or to call a halt to the activity if I felt really anxious or ganged-up on/left out in the moment. B said she understood and agreed that we would "check in with each other" every step of the way during proceedings.

So the time came when I finally met and had sex with each of my lovers in person (separately) during a blissful month overseas. So far, so good.

When the day of our joint meeting arrived, I was nervous as hell but still anticipatory to a degree, so I took one of my recently prescribed anti-anxiety pills (they both know I'm on these). Not being a drinker or habitual user of medication, I didn't think about the effects when I consumed a couple of glasses of alcohol before dinner... then another couple afterwards.

J was also clearly nervous and quite drunk by the evening, but unbeknownst to me and B, he also decided he'd use a little speed and a drug that's commonly prescribed for erectile dysfunction (although he doesn't have this problem) just before joining myself and B in the hot tub.

By the time J joined us in the spa, he was already sporting an obvious hard-on and B was starting to kiss and fondle me. Suddenly it hit me that, ready or not, a threesome was about to happen! When J moved closer and began to manually stimulate me (I was unsure whose hand it was till later, as it was dark and underwater) while B was kissing me, my stomach dropped and I began to silently freak out and dissociate from what I felt was happening TO me.

I couldn't relax and enjoy the sensations and didn't want to have BOTH my lovers watching me as I came (guilt, shame, embarrassment?) so I said "no" or "stop" and pushed the hand away (I had to do this twice). Feeling guilty for "ruining" it for them, I redirected their attentions towards each other, even though my heart was crying "no, don't do that!"

My memory is hazy about what transpired after that, but I know J brought B to orgasm via fingering her, and at some point B went down on J which tore my heart out and made her hate her a little. Yet for some reason, I felt compelled to encourage them and I know they thought I was perfectly fine with everything although nobody actually asked me at any point. The whole thing felt sort of like an out of body experience, and I can't recall how it ended and nothing more until I was woken up in the middle of the night by J trying to climb into the bed B and I were sharing.

Physically and emotionally uncomfortable, I left to go sleep on the couch... but I just ended up crying all night, flashing back to "seeing" B's mouth wrapped around J's cock every few minutes, while they slept peacefully cuddled up in the bedroom.

It was a nightmare, and I had a massive meltdown the next morning. I knew I'd allowed it to happen, even encouraged them (if only to draw the attention away from me and my lack of reaction), and that nothing "bad" had actually happened... but for some reason it still felt like I'd been forced into something, "used", and like my requests regarding prior discussion, boundaries, checking in, and consent to certain acts had not been honoured.

Am I crazy for thinking this way? This almost destroyed my relationship with B, though we've since worked it out, and has definitely put the kybosh on any plans we had to live together as a group for the time being.

 

[GalaGirl]

It was a nightmare, and I had a massive meltdown the next morning. I knew I'd allowed it to happen, even encouraged them (if only to draw the attention away from me and my lack of reaction), and that nothing "bad" had actually happened... but for some reason it still felt like I'd been forced into something, "used", and like my requests regarding prior discussion, boundaries, checking in, and consent to certain acts had not been honoured.

Am I crazy for thinking this way?

You are not crazy. "Bad" did happen. The agreements were not honored by anyone.

Here are the agreements:

We all agreed that we should take it slow, have condoms on hand, decide on a "safe word", and that nobody should feel obligated to go along with anything they didn't want to do. Nor should we be drunk or impaired.

You guys did not take it slow. You guys lept into full on sex rather than start with baby steps like a clothed make out session. Maybe some kissing, hands above the waist stuff. Given the sex abuse in your past, going this fast this quick was just a triggering thing to get into.

B was pushing for group sex, rather than letting the group naturally unfold.

You entered into something you really didn't want to be doing despite your past history. Trying to please B.

J entered it not really wanting to but trying to please you and B.

J came to the threesome drunk/on speed. Which broke the agreement to have a threesome unimpaired.

You took anxiety medication with alcohol. If it warrants meds, maybe you just don't do it so the meds are not needed. Or don't have alcohol. But you entered impaired also.

B, J, and you did not check in every step of the way as agreed to. If someone had checked BEFORE going in, these things could have been found -- nervousness, anxiety, having to self medicate with alcohol, anxiety meds, speed, etc. That's not entering unimpaired and one of you could have called the others on that.

You did not use the safe word and end things entirely.

The agreements may not have covered enough.

I began to silently freak out and dissociate from what I felt was happening TO me.

I couldn't relax and enjoy the sensations and didn't want to have BOTH my lovers watching me as I came (guilt, shame, embarrassment?) so I said "no" or "stop" and pushed the hand away (I had to do this twice). Feeling guilty for "ruining" it for them, I redirected their attentions towards each other, even though my heart was crying "no, don't do that!"

My memory is hazy about what transpired after that, but I know J brought B to orgasm via fingering her, and at some point B went down on J which tore my heart out and made her hate her a little. Yet for some reason, I felt compelled to encourage them and I know they thought I was perfectly fine with everything although nobody actually asked me at any point. The whole thing felt sort of like an out of body experience, and I can't recall how it ended and nothing more until I was woken up in the middle of the night by J trying to climb into the bed B and I were sharing.

To me that sounds like bad subdrop and a sleep crash.

I think the agreements were lacking -- perhaps from lack of knowledge or experience.

Sometimes a person CANNOT do a safe word even if they want to. They are unable to speak and/or unable to think clearly in the moment. There was not a "safe gesture" like holding a ball and dropping it or a timer set to stop and check in because sometimes in altered states people don't notice time passing or that others are "drowning" in subdrop. Maybe you didn't know subdrop was a risk to intense sex in a threesome and maybe thought it only happens in kink/BDSM.

But adrenalin/endorphin dump is adrenalin/endorphin dump. Intense experiences of any kind can trigger it. When it cascades down, it can feel FUN... like "Whee! I'm flying!" Or it can feel UGH like "Help! I'm drowning! What's happening to me? All this darkness! ARGH!"

In your other posts and in this one it sounds like you all later agreed it was a poor choice to make. Hopefully you are on the same page now.

Galagirl

 

[lunabunny]

Thanks for your response, GalaGirl, and for reassuring me that I'm not simply overreacting, because this has really affected me quite badly.

You are not crazy. "Bad" did happen. The agreements were not honored by anyone.

Yes, I see what you mean and agree from that perspective. (What I meant though was that nothing overtly forceful or abusive happened.)

You guys did not take it slow. You guys lept into full on sex rather than start with baby steps like a clothed make out session. Maybe some kissing, hands above the waist stuff. Given the sex abuse in your past, going this fast this quick was just a triggering thing to get into.

Yes, true, and starting with a relaxed make-out session or just group hugs or kisses WAS what we'd agreed to do when discussing it in the weeks leading up to our meeting, for that exact reason (avoiding anything heavy that might trigger.) Instead, I felt "ambushed" on both sides while already naked, though I knew or at least strongly suspected it might happen that night.

J came to the threesome drunk/on speed. Which broke the agreement to have a threesome unimpaired.

Yes, and this broke another agreement too, unrelated to anything sexual, which is that J was supposed to be clean and sober. I/we didn't find out about the speed until we were hashing this subject out in the weeks following the event.

You took anxiety medication with alcohol. If it warrants meds, maybe you just don't do it so the meds are not needed. Or don't have alcohol. But you entered impaired also.

I acknowledge that at best this was unwise, at worst stupid and dangerous. In my defence, I was so nervous and I'm so NOT used to taking anything, that it didn't even register that I'd done it at the time, and because of the haziness of the whole event, I didn't even remember I'd taken the pill until a week or more had passed.

B, J, and you did not check in every step of the way as agreed to. If someone had checked BEFORE going in, these things could have been found -- nervousness, anxiety, having to self medicate with alcohol, anxiety meds, speed, etc. That's not entering unimpaired and one of you could have called the others on that.

You are right and I agree we went about this all wrong. In fact, not having a group discussion, in person, that day or directly beforehand, in which consent would have been sought and details agreed upon, is one of my major issues with how this all transpired. And not just about our emotional states or substance use, but even agreeing on whether or everyone was cool with going through with it in the first place, and if so, what acts might be acceptable. (For instance, as it turned out, nobody had brought any condoms to the venue, but nobody knew this. Luckily it didn't progress to penetrative sex.)

You did not use the safe word and end things entirely.

To clarify on this point: we had agreed some weeks beforehand that we must agree on a safeword, however, we had NOT actually agreed on or SET a safeword! Therefore, it was impossible for me to use one even if I'd been able to.

To me that sounds like bad subdrop and a sleep crash.

I think the agreements were lacking -- perhaps from lack of knowledge or experience.

Clearly, I am even more inexperienced than I thought, because I've never even HEARD of "sub-drop" before :/ and have no experience of the kink or bdsm worlds, other than a basic theoretically knowledge and the little I've seen via porn.

Sometimes a person CANNOT do a safe word even if they want to. They are unable to speak and/or unable to think clearly in the moment. There was not a "safe gesture" like holding a ball and dropping it or a timer set to stop and check in because sometimes in altered states people don't notice time passing or that others are "drowning" in subdrop. Maybe you didn't know subdrop was a risk to intense sex in a threesome and maybe thought it only happens in kink/BDSM.

But adrenalin/endorphin dump is adrenalin/endorphin dump. Intense experiences of any kind can trigger it. When it cascades down, it can feel FUN... like "Whee! I'm flying!" Or it can feel UGH like "Help! I'm drowning! What's happening to me? All this darkness! ARGH!"

Hmm... this is all definitely something to consider and read up on. Very, very occasionally, when triggered, I have experienced what I'd describe as going into a state of involuntary mutism or near-catatonia... wherein I simultaneously panic on the inside, but cannot verbalise anything other than an internal scream or silently repeating the same word or phrase over and over, shutting down (with or without accompanying physical gestures to indicate such a state), go blank, or start to shake uncontrollably.

I guess I experienced a milder form of this during the threesome. My mind and body were definitely divorced from each other. I could feel ("see") myself smiling and acting or speaking, but it felt like someone else, and wasn't reflective of what I was feeling or thinking inside.

In your other posts and in this one it sounds like you all later agreed it was a poor choice to make. Hopefully you are on the same page now.

Galagirl

Yes, after many very upsetting arguments we have finally all agreed we won't be going there again in a hurry, if at all. This experience almost broke us, and destroyed much of the trust we'd been trying to rebuild, if not the love. Sexually, it has set me (and hence, my relationships) back to a point where at first I was unable to be intimate with either partner separately, although I've gotten past that now.

I'm just concerned because it took so long to get to a good place, and so little time to (almost) destroy it all again. And now J and B are about to go on a trip together without me in another couple of weeks, I worry I'll freak out and get really upset as I have when they've gone away together in the past - only worse, now that I have THIS image stuck in my head! I told B I'd love to be hypnotised to either block these visions or so that I can more easily accept the idea of group sex/poly. That said, I DO actually trust them to not hurt me in this way. I just need to find a way to get past it.

 

[GalaGirl]

I think you guys took on more than you could actually handle and each contributed to the situation making. I'm not juding or pointing finger or anything. Just saying... could call it lesson learned and don't do that again. And no. That you are not crazy to feel yucky after that happened. It wan't anything FUN to you.

I told B I'd love to be hypnotised to either block these visions or so that I can more easily accept the idea of group sex/poly.

Group sex is not required in poly.

I thought the current agreement was for them not to date or share sex. Be a V with you as the hinge. Stick with that, and let the group sex thing go.

Just because you are up for some kinds of open relationships (ex: a poly V with you as the hinge) doesn't mean you are up for ALL possible open models. Be ok with that.

If you are not into a triad thing where everyone dates and shares sex with everyone else? You just are not into that model.

Very, very occasionally, when triggered, I have experienced what I'd describe as going into a state of involuntary mutism or near-catatonia... wherein I simultaneously panic on the inside, but cannot verbalise anything other than an internal scream or silently repeating the same word or phrase over and over, shutting down (with or without accompanying physical gestures to indicate such a state), go blank, or start to shake uncontrollably.

Panic attacks, emotional flooding, sub drop... all sorts of responses to brain chemistry dump of some kind. In the end I think the "flight or fight" response is going to happen when adrenalin and endorphins and other things kick in. By whatever name? Whether it feels "good" or "bad" will depend on the circumstances. Some people like the "Aaaaaahhh!" feeling that rollercoasters and zip lines can bring on. Others do not.

If you are an anxious person, who has an abusive past? I'd suggest avoiding trigger-y things in future if you experience it as largely unpleasant.

I have anxiety. I don't like drama. I know I cannot avoid all the unpleasant things in Life. Some cannot be helped. They just happen, I get stressed, and I just have to cope. So I do.

But the stuff I CAN help? The stuff I DO get to choose to participate or not participate in? I'm not going to sign up for some extra load of stressy things. I rather respect my personal limitations and not go there.

I'm just concerned because it took so long to get to a good place, and so little time to (almost) destroy it all again. And now J and B are about to go on a trip together without me in another couple of weeks, I worry I'll freak out and get really upset as I have when they've gone away together in the past - only worse, now that I have THIS image stuck in my head! I told B I'd love to be hypnotised to either block these visions or so that I can more easily accept the idea of group sex/poly. That said, I DO actually trust them to not hurt me in this way. I just need to find a way to get past it.

Could stop "pre-worrying" and putting your energy into the blue stuff cranking your own self up. The "what if this, what if that" stuff.

Put your energy into the green stuff instead. Fuel your "coping-ness" not your worries.

• Plan for your "before care" -- what do you need before they leave to be reassured and feel connected?

• Plan for your "during care" -- what do you need to stay connected? Good night texts from them? To stay level headed? A friend to be "on call" to come get you for a movie if you need to air out and not be doing hamster wheel thoughts? Your meds on a schedule? Sensible meals, good sleep, exercise?

• Plan for your "after care" -- what do you need to reconnect once they are back? Dinner out? A couple massage?

If you do want to see a counselor, make an appointment. If you think hypnotism needs to be part of your self care? Ask them about it.

Galagirl

 

[Shaya]

Hi Lunabunny,

To me, your past trauma is impacting your current relationship. I think you see it too. That's fine, you can draw the boundaries and your lovers can choose to respect those boundaries or not. If you feel B and J may be developing something between them that makes you uneasy (which I feel is the main reason you're here on these forums), then I think you have 2 choices:

1. disengage from this relationship, either by dropping one or both of these partners.
2. Work through the trauma of the awful threesome you had in the past. What happened in the past has nothing to do with B and J. Easy for me to say I know, much harder for you to work through it, sorry. Also, I'm not sure if PTSD is the right word, but you can pick what feels right for yourself.
3. (this is one suggested possibility but unlikely to work in my opinion) Drawing tighter boundaries around B and J. Unlikely to work in my opinion because people don't like being told what to do and they seem to be emotionally 'less against' something developing between them than you are - an unstable solution in my eyes.

They're not easy choices, but I get the sense that you're here on the forums, asking many questions and many threads, but it all really boils down to how uncomfortable this situation or possible situation between B and J makes you feel. There may be options other than 1 or 2 that I've listed above, but those are the best solutions I see at the moment.

Good luck. You've had a tough life LunaBunny,
Shaya.

 

[vinsanity0]

Sometimes a person CANNOT do a safe word even if they want to. They are unable to speak and/or unable to think clearly in the moment. There was not a "safe gesture" like holding a ball and dropping it or a timer set to stop and check in because sometimes in altered states people don't notice time passing or that others are "drowning" in subdrop. Maybe you didn't know subdrop was a risk to intense sex in a threesome and maybe thought it only happens in kink/BDSM.

But adrenalin/endorphin dump is adrenalin/endorphin dump. Intense experiences of any kind can trigger it. When it cascades down, it can feel FUN... like "Whee! I'm flying!" Or it can feel UGH like "Help! I'm drowning! What's happening to me? All this darkness! ARGH!"

What you are describing is "subspace". Sub drop is the crash after those intense feelings of euphoria, which is why aftercare is so important.

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't always experience drop after the scene. Sometimes it starts happening during the scene due to mismanagement. I could be wrong but I think something akin to that happened here. She mentioned feeling all depressed and ugh during the threesome and shortly after. That part sounded like a fast drop to me. Like she entered the altered state/sub space. But then it started getting all yucky in there, she started crashing fast, couldn't tell people/they didn't notice, and it just ended up a bad scene. Def stressy sounding.

Galagirl

 

[vinsanity0]

She mentioned feeling all depressed and ugh during and shortly after. That part sounds like a fast drop to me. Like she entered the altered state/sub space. But then it started getting all yucky in there, she started crashing fast, couldn't tell people/they didn't notice, and it just ended up a bad scene.

Galagirl

Oh I agree. I was just clarifying the terms. Either she didn't quite convey those ugh feelings, or the other two didn't recognize them. Probably a little of both. It's a good idea to talk about what happened right after it happens. Sounds like that didn't happen here.

 

[GalaGirl]

It's a good idea to talk about what happened right after it happens.

I think it depends on the person and their personal recovery time. Sometimes trying to talk about it right afterward keeps the person all "keyed up" and stimulated when really they just need to remove all stimulus/source of stress. Like taking the pot off the burner. Take a break and finish calming down before trying process anything. Maybe even wait a few days before trying to process to make sure body and mind are well rested enough.

Galagirl

 

[Emm]

3. (this is one suggested possibility but unlikely to work in my opinion) Drawing tighter boundaries around B and J.

Nitpick: Shaya, you're confusing boundaries with rules. Rules attempt to control the behaviour of others, e.g. "You are not allowed to eat apples". Boundaries are about how you will react to a situation, e.g. "I won't be in a room with someone eating apples, so I'm going home now". You can only set boundaries for yourself.

 

[Shaya]

What if you ask others to set boundaries for themselves? In your example, telling your partner "you are not allowed to eat apples" would be a rule, but requesting of them not to eat apples and have them say, of their own initiative, "I agree with you reasons. No more eating apples for me." Would that be a rule, boundary or some sort of chameleon-hybrid of the two?

Obviously we're not talking about apples.

 

[Emm]

That would be an agreement.

Edit: in any case, be it a rule, agreement, or boundary, there is (short of locking him up for 24 hours a day) absolutely no way for Alice to prevent Bob eating apples if Bob so chooses. If he's breaking a rule or agreement Bob might feel a twinge of guilt as he bites into a juicy Golden Delicious, but he is the only one able to control his apple-eating, and the only thing Alice can control is her own reaction to it.

 

[FallenAngelina]

As someone who experienced sexual abuse within a relationship when quite young...my stomach dropped and I began to silently freak out and dissociate from what I felt was happening TO me.....I couldn't relax and enjoy the sensations....Feeling guilty for "ruining" it for them, I redirected their attentions towards each other, even though my heart was crying "no, don't do that!".... I felt compelled to encourage them and I know they thought I was perfectly fine with everything although nobody actually asked me at any point. The whole thing felt sort of like an out of body experience.....My mind and body were definitely divorced from each other. I could feel ("see") myself smiling and acting or speaking, but it felt like someone else, and wasn't reflective of what I was feeling or thinking inside.

This has nothing to do with sub-anything, but is a completely normal reaction of someone who has a history of severe sexual trauma that has not been worked through. Actually, even people who work on it might experience this in an edgy sexual situation. It has zero to do with the the BDSM terms "sub-drop" and "sub-space."

I have experienced all three of these and each is a distinctively different experience. It's huge that you've recognized these feelings, lunabunny. That you were able to articulate them after the fact is great progress for you. Being able to stay present and verbalize yourself in an edgy sexual experience is a wonderful goal, but this is all about progress, not perfection. It's important for you to know that this is a typical experience of a person with a history of sexual trauma because it's something that needs to be addressed and addressing it will make all aspects of your life much better. It's not the same as a kink situation in which a person consciously puts herself into the complete care of a trusted dominant and allows herself complete vulnerability in an edgy, but safe place.

So again, it's really good that you can now articulate your experience, but it's something that you likely want to work on with a therapist because it's unresolved trauma that is impacting other aspects of your life. It's not the same experience of a submissive in a conscious kink scene and it doesn't pass with hormonal balance or with aftercare and it's not because it was just a bad scene. It's a serious, deep trauma that needs attention, so in a way, this threesome is an opportunity for you. Even though you have lingering yuk feelings right now, this brought much to the surface for you. Now you can begin (or continue) to work on it.

 

[lunabunny]

I thought the current agreement was for them not to date or share sex. Be a V with you as the hinge. Stick with that, and let the group sex thing go.

If you are not into a triad thing where everyone dates and shares sex with everyone else? You just are not into that model.

Yes, GalaGirl, I acknowledge and have stated to the others that we tried to take on WAY too much for a first time. Not just first time threesome, but first time we three had all been in the same place at the same time, in person. I think it's because ours is a major LDR, and we felt we had to make the most of the time we had together because it'll be a long time before we meet as a group again. (Still, BIG mistake.)

Yes, that is the current agreement (quoted above). In fact, I made it clear when I first met these two and -belatedly- discovered they were a casual item after J and I had already fallen for each other, that I would NOT be up for "sharing", group-anything, or a DADT poly relationship. Fast forward two years and I allowed myself to be pressured into trying, which I now regret, and seeing how badly it has affected me - and judging the fallout not to be worth it, since they are not "in" love with each other - my partners have agreed not to pursue it.

Panic attacks, emotional flooding, sub drop... all sorts of responses to brain chemistry dump of some kind. In the end I think the "flight or fight" response is going to happen when adrenalin and endorphins and other things kick in. By whatever name?
If you are an anxious person, who has an abusive past? I'd suggest avoiding trigger-y things in future if you experience it as largely unpleasant.

I have anxiety. I don't like drama. I know I cannot avoid all the unpleasant things in Life. Some cannot be helped. They just happen, I get stressed, and I just have to cope. So I do.

But the stuff I CAN help? The stuff I DO get to choose to participate or not participate in? I'm not going to sign up for some extra load of stressy things. I rather respect my personal limitations and not go there.

Makes perfect sense, and I KNOW you're right. I am sorry you also suffer from anxiety. It sucks big-time (and not in the good way.)

I am very rarely like this under ordinary circumstances, but in my relationship with B, I feel a degree of guilt/responsibility for being the catalyst that ended hers and J's relationship, so have tended to allow myself to be persuaded, or "give in" to her wishes, even when it's not something I'd normally want for myself. Something I need to get over as I was NOT the "guilty party" in that situation.

You're also right that, whatever you want to term it, I experienced that "fight or flight" adrenaline pumping fear response... and as I've noted in MY case, rather than "fight" or "flight/flee", this can sometimes result in a reaction I term "freeze" - the proverbial deer in the headlights - when I am triggered or perceive my safety (physical or emotional) is under severe threat.

Could stop "pre-worrying" and putting your energy into the blue stuff cranking your own self up. The "what if this, what if that" stuff.
Put your energy into the green stuff instead. Fuel your "coping-ness" not your worries.

This is exactly what J tells me all the time, being the optimist he is. I admit I have a tendency to catastrophize anyway, as an outcome of anxiety. However it hasn't helped that my suspicions/fears have proven correct on a notable few occasions during this relationship. I acknowledge I can't KEEP dwelling on past betrayals however, and need to find positive ways to move forward.

• Plan for your "before care" -- what do you need before they leave to be reassured and feel connected?

• Plan for your "during care" -- what do you need to stay connected? Good night texts from them? To stay level headed? A friend to be "on call" to come get you for a movie if you need to air out and not be doing hamster wheel thoughts? Your meds on a schedule? Sensible meals, good sleep, exercise?

• Plan for your "after care" -- what do you need to reconnect once they are back? Dinner out? A couple massage?

Galagirl

This is a great list full of practical tips, thank you. I will definitely be taking your suggestions on board, and will be sure to communicate my needs to my partners well in advance of the trip (I'd better get working on it then!)

Alas, as it's a LDR, couple's massage or other "in person" aftercare will be out of the question.

Related tangent: When we WERE all together in real life during my vacation and that bad scene went down, it didn't even dawn on me to expect "aftercare" - something I've only come to associate with the bdsm/kink world through my readings. Had I received it immediately afterwards, perhaps our relationship/s would have recovered a lot sooner. Lesson learnt.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am glad you see that I'm not talking about kink here.... but rather the stress experience, and then what to do afterward about your stress management.

You're also right that, whatever you want to term it, I experienced that "fight or flight" adrenaline pumping fear response... and as I've noted in MY case, rather than "fight" or "flight/flee", this can sometimes result in a reaction I term "freeze"

Yes. "Freeze" can also be another response due to the stress.

I feel a degree of guilt/responsibility for being the catalyst that ended hers and J's relationship, so have tended to allow myself to be persuaded, or "give in" to her wishes, even when it's not something I'd normally want for myself. Something I need to get over as I was NOT the "guilty party" in that situation.

You are not the cause of their break up. It is not your job to "make up for it."

When we WERE all together in real life during my vacation and that bad scene went down, it didn't even dawn on me to expect "aftercare" - something I've only come to associate with the bdsm/kink world through my readings. Had I received it immediately afterwards, perhaps our relationship/s would have recovered a lot sooner. Lesson learnt.

Before, during and after care matters to me in anxiety / stress management.

I have to have rest before doing a high stress thing if I want my anxiety to stay manageable. I cannot be doing high stress things when HAALT. (Hungry, angry, anxious, lonely, tired.)
If I have a wedding to go to on Sunday? I'm not going theme parking on Saturday! Some people have high energy and bounce back fast. I do not. I need space in between high stimulus things (even if pleasant like theme parking and weddings) to rest and recover.

I also have to pace it out during. If I think I can do 3 things ok? Then I plan to do 2 things, and leave the 3rd option open to deal with the unforseen. Dealing with an accident or the unexpected. Then I have the energy to make it through all the way. And if there is no accident or unexpected? I only had to do 2 things, and I have 1 slot to spare? Hooray! I have extra rest time. Woot. If I use up all my 3 slots, and then some unforseen thing happens? Then it winds up being 4 things, and I risk extra stress because I'm trying to do another thing while already tired.

I can do road trip to get there. I can do the wedding. I can do the reception. But I am NOT doing the after party bar crawl that night also! Too many things piled up.

I have to have rest days/down days after a high stimulus/high stress thing. Even if a pleasant stress like going theme parking, a wedding, rock concert, or similar... it's still "high energy" and lots of stimulus and I need time to come down from that. Some people feel energized from that but I do not. I feel drained. Too many lights, noises, people... just too much stimulus.

If I string too many "high stimulus" or "high stress" events together with little to no breaks in between all I am doing is setting myself up for overload at some point.

Glad some of the ideas were helpful as you figure out what you need to help manage your stress/anxiety better in future.

Def don't be doing things you really don't want to be doing. It's ok to say "No, thanks. Not for me" and let the other people deal with THEIR feelings about it. You have to deal with yours. It's fair they have to deal with theirs. You are not responsible for doing their emotional management.

However it hasn't helped that my suspicions/fears have proven correct on a notable few occasions during this relationship. I acknowledge I can't KEEP dwelling on past betrayals however, and need to find positive ways to move forward.

Could put a number on it. Like 3 strikes on the same issue? You are bowing out of it. Because it isn't going to be 300, 3000, 3 million second chances with you chronically experiencing high stress each time. Too big a price to pay and too much damage to your health.

Sometimes the positive way to move forward is to stop doing something that is a constant source of stress/pain.

Galagirl

 

[lunabunny]

Hi Lunabunny,

To me, your past trauma is impacting your current relationship. I think you see it too.

Yes, I suspected it soon after I became involved with B - which effectively transitioned my lifelong mono identity into poly - but I didn't fully appreciate the potential repercussions of unintentionally "recreating" a relationship dynamic akin to the one that existed when I endured trauma in the past.

you can draw the boundaries and your lovers can choose to respect those boundaries or not. If you feel B and J may be developing something between them that makes you uneasy (which I feel is the main reason you're here on these forums)

I don't suspect that any longer - not since the recent renegotiation of our triad. However I DID suspect that up until about a month ago - although back then my unease was based on the FACT that B (in particular) was trying to renew closeness/intimacy with J via our group dynamic. To be fair she was honest about this desire. It wasn't being done in any underhanded way.

2. Work through the trauma of the awful threesome you had in the past. What happened in the past has nothing to do with B and J. Easy for me to say I know, much harder for you to work through it, sorry. Also, I'm not sure if PTSD is the right word, but you can pick what feels right for yourself.

Yes, more and more I've come to see that I really do need to work through the feelings associated with those past negative relationship experiences. While I don't wish to disrespect anyone with diagnosed PTSD, I have come to believe my reactions are akin to someone with that or similar condition.

To clarify, the distressing threesome in the PAST was only one of the sex-based traumas I underwent during my relationship with my first love/ex-fiancé. This guy also physically forced me to have sex on a number of occasions out of anger, jealousy or while drunk; twice while I was asleep/passed out. He had a lot of issues himself, and while I no longer "blame" him, I never did seek counselling or help with working through any of this.

3. Drawing tighter boundaries around B and J. Unlikely to work in my opinion because people don't like being told what to do and they seem to be emotionally 'less against' something developing between them than you are

Yes, those two are more "open"/less conservative when it comes to non-monogamy and sharing intimacy on any level.

I don't WANT to present them with a list of constrictive rules regarding how they conduct themselves around each other or show physical affection (though B recently asked me to delineate what acts/behaviours I have a problem with, so as to avoid further issues) because I don't want to act like a control freak. However, I need to feel as safe and secure as I can in my relationships, for my own happiness and mental health. After our deep talks in recent weeks, I know my partners respect my feelings enough to curtail some behaviours they personally don't see as problematic (such as sleeping in the same bed), but which I deem an unnecessary adjunct to a platonic friendship.

They're not easy choices, but I get the sense that you're here on the forums, asking many questions and many threads, but it all really boils down to how uncomfortable this situation or possible situation between B and J makes you feel.
Good luck. You've had a tough life LunaBunny,
Shaya.

Yes, you're almost certainly right, Shaya. Thank you for taking the time to seriously consider these issues and present your suggestions.

 

[lunabunny]

What you are describing is "subspace". Sub drop is the crash after those intense feelings of euphoria, which is why aftercare is so important.

Thank you for your response, vinsanity.

As discussed elsewhere in this thread, I was not even aware of the terms/concepts of "subdrop", "subspace" or "sleep crash" until now, nor did I consider I may need "aftercare" in the hours or days post-threesome.

I don't know why, except that being inexperienced, it just didn't occur to me - and I doubt whether it did to the others either, although subsequent events proved that we had all gravely underestimated the impact this would have on my emotions and psyche.

We'd also *thought* we were prepared in other ways for this scene, but our preparations proved to be woefully incomplete (talking about, yet not setting a safeword, for example) and forgetting our agreement not to enter into such a thing in an impaired state.

 

[lunabunny]

I don't always experience drop after the scene. Sometimes it starts happening during the scene due to mismanagement. I could be wrong but I think something akin to that happened here.
Galagirl

Oh I agree. I was just clarifying the terms. Either she didn't quite convey those ugh feelings, or the other two didn't recognize them. Probably a little of both. It's a good idea to talk about what happened right after it happens. Sounds like that didn't happen here.

I think it depends on the person and their personal recovery time. Sometimes trying to talk about it right afterward keeps the person all "keyed up" and stimulated when really they just need to remove all stimulus/source of stress. Like taking the pot off the burner. Take a break and finish calming down before trying process anything. Maybe even wait a few days before trying to process to make sure body and mind are well rested enough.

Galagirl

GalaGirl, vinsanity, and Emm - thank you all for further clarifying these terms and concepts.

Whatever we wish to call the experience of being overrun by panic-induced adrenaline, then crashing and burning emotionally in the aftermath, I definitely DO believe that is what I experienced, and most likely as a result of past traumatic experiences that were similar enough to the recent scenario as to trigger this chain reaction...

...as well as the fact that, partially suppressed or not, I knew I didn't really want to do the threesome ahead of time, yet felt extreme guilt and like I "owed" it to my partner/s due to the convoluted way our relationship had evolved.

I still cannot remember it ending, going to bed etc., however I do know there was no aftercare, cuddling, talking it over or the like - until I had my morning-after meltdown. To their credit, both J and B were incredibly sweet and caring, if somewhat puzzled and hurt, when they discovered how badly I'd taken it. And after I'd burnt myself out with crying and debriefing, they left me to sleep for some hours while they went for a long walk. I backburnered my feelings as best as I could for the rest of our holiday, but as soon as returned home to my own country, everything began to overwhelm me again and I had an emotional breakdown, which I'm still "feeling" and working through, though we've discussed, renegotiated and settled our issues to the best of our joint ability.

Nitpick: Shaya, you're confusing boundaries with rules.

What if you ask others to set boundaries for themselves? In your example, telling your partner "you are not allowed to eat apples" would be a rule, but requesting of them not to eat apples and have them say, of their own initiative, "I agree with you reasons. No more eating apples for me." Would that be a rule, boundary or some sort of chameleon-hybrid of the two?

Obviously we're not talking about apples.

That would be an agreement.

Edit: in any case, be it a rule, agreement, or boundary, there is (short of locking him up for 24 hours a day) absolutely no way for Alice to prevent Bob eating apples if Bob so chooses. If he's breaking a rule or agreement Bob might feel a twinge of guilt as he bites into a juicy Golden Delicious, but he is the only one able to control his apple-eating, and the only thing Alice can control is her own reaction to it.

Haha, it's funny you should use the apple analogy as J actually happens to be unreasonably fond of apples.

All metaphors (and metamours) aside however...

I must clarify that J wasn't the driver behind either the threesome or the attempt to transition our current relationship paradigm (two separate romantic dyads) into a more integrated poly-fi triad. He did however go along with the idea, as did I, although I think I always knew I was terribly uncomfortable about the idea from the get-go.

From all this I've learned that I must be more proactive about setting boundaries, as well as explicitly stating my needs and what I find unacceptable - BEFORE the proverbial shit hits the fan.

I also acknowledge I am the only one for whom I can do this. As much as I may want to, I cannot enforce my will or decisions on my partners, unless they also come to believe that these will best serve their own needs, and those of the group.

 

[lunabunny]

This has nothing to do with sub-anything, but is a completely normal reaction of someone who has a history of severe sexual trauma that has not been worked through.

I have experienced all three of these and each is a distinctively different experience. It's huge that you've recognized these feelings, lunabunny.

Being able to stay present and verbalize yourself in an edgy sexual experience is a wonderful goal, but this is all about progress, not perfection. It's important for you to know that this is a typical experience of a person with a history of sexual trauma because it's something that needs to be addressed and addressing it will make all aspects of your life much better.

threesome is an opportunity for you. Even though you have lingering yuk feelings right now, this brought much to the surface for you. Now you can begin (or continue) to work on it.

Thank you, Angelina - clearly you get it.

While it's not a pleasant subject for me, you, or anyone who has experienced these sensations/emotions in the aftermath of what you term an edgy sexual scene, as you say, it's best that the feelings (and their source!) are acknowledged so that they can be worked on.

After running this past you all on the forum and reading your responses, I feel satisfied that I am not just "crazy", or an overly conservative prude. I have very real reasons I reacted the way I did, and I think it's time I sought therapy to deal with the residual pain and hurt caused long ago, and exacerbated by various breaches and betrayals within my current relationship (I've only skirted the surface of some of them).

 

[lunabunny]

You are not the cause of their break up. It is not your job to "make up for it."

I know that now. In fact, I always knew it in my heart, but that didn't stop me FEELING responsible and like I had to make up for it.

I'd always suspected B still had romantic feelings for J, though she/they denied it. And that bred distrust and a vague feeling of being under threat.

But after I began to love B, I didn't resent her so much for still having feelings for J, because I could *understand* why she did. And because I loved her (both of them) I wanted to "put it right" if I could. The only problem was, it made me feel so threatened, sad, jealous and out of control whenever I envisioned them together. And confused/crazy too, because sometimes the "fantasy" of that was also a huge turn-on. (Which I NOW know is normal and not indicative that a person actually wants to, or has to fulfil those fantasies IRL.)

I have to have rest before doing a high stress thing if I want my anxiety to stay manageable. If I have a wedding to go to on Sunday? I'm not going theme parking on Saturday! Some people have high energy and bounce back fast. I do not.
I also have to pace it out during. I can do road trip to get there. I can do the wedding. I can do the reception. But I am NOT doing the after party bar crawl that night also! Too many things piled up.
If I string too many "high stimulus" or "high stress" events together with little to no breaks in between all I am doing is setting myself up for overload at some point.

I am exactly the same way, Gala, and have been all my life. J is also this way - even more so than me. Which is probably another reason why he and I were and are not as interested in adding another layer to an already energy-consuming, needs-dense relationship scenario.

Could put a number on it. Like 3 strikes on the same issue? You are bowing out of it. Because it isn't going to be 300, 3000, 3 million second chances with you chronically experiencing high stress each time. Too big a price to pay and too much damage to your health.

Sometimes the positive way to move forward is to stop doing something that is a constant source of stress/pain.

Galagirl

You are SO right, I know that now. Or rather, you have confirmed what the sensible, non-doormat version of myself has always known and acted upon in the past (all this allowing myself to be pressured has been a new and confusing result of a convoluted and stressful relationship situation).

You, and maybe another member of this forum, had suggested the "three strikes or I'm out" idea the other day, and I believe that is definitely the way to go.

Both J and B have "strikes" against them already for different things, and frankly J is on his last warning for infractions un-related to this situation we're talking about. I've been strong in the past about ending relationships that were not working after only a few, or even a single strike, so I suppose I can do it again if I must.