Aborting because of mild disability

See, this is where we disagree, SSDI *is* society's way of providing for people with disabilities. If you want to work, you can't get SSDI. Either you contribute to this society's taxes or you don't. You can't have it both ways. We pay taxes to fund Medicaid, which in turn is available for states to use to pay for services to the disabled. The governor of NY turned down federal medicaid funds in 2013, cutting benefits to people with disabilities. Thousands of people signed petitions to reverse that decision, but programs in my area are now severely underfunded. Now they are merging or closing all together not because of public opinion, but because of one man's opinion.

Public funds are not the answer, at this point. Private funds are. And I for one, am already paying my own paycheck with my taxes and then some.
 
Also, my friends had their baby, she's 6 now and while she is getting some services, is very independent. However, my friend now understand's the risks and while he wants more children, he wants to make sure that they are born safely and that child birth doesn't put either mom or baby at risk.

You saw that case where the state refused to allow the man's wife to be taken off of life support because she was pregnant. Personally, I won't not want to be a child who incubated inside a corpse. Mom's and baby's bond while the child is in the womb, not only afterwards. Now if it were say a week or two, where mom's heart was beating on her own, but she was brain dead, and they were then able to deliver the baby safely, I think I'd be okay with that. But for months of development in a body that was deprived of oxygen for who knows how long. I agreed with the father who just wanted to end it. It's easier to grieve them both, than have to live every day knowing you could have prevented your child from suffering.
 
Ssdi

I don't see where we disagree.

I know SSDI and SSI are the government's way of helping people with disabilities.

However, it takes a hell of a lot of work to get either of those. And then people like Searching complain about "tax burden."

Isn't SSI and SSDI different. I get SSDI. So basically I was employed making $60,000 a year as an inner city teacher. When the prejudice got too much for me (coupled other issues) I went on SSDI, but I think I ME paid for that.

Again, I did a rare thing (you probably haven't met many people like this) I was so dedicated to working that I WENT OFF SSDI to be an adjunct professor. After three years, I went back on SSDI because I had a two hour commute each way and after trans and all that was only making 100 mo, over what I would make with SSDI. Still, I did this for THREE YEARS.

I do believe that is academia valued disability as they do race and gender differences in teaching. If they valued disability studies as they do queer and race studies, I would have a good job closer to home, and I'd take it, even if it was only marginal more money. (I'm an English teacher BTW and scholar, not just disability studies.
 
London- Downs

London,

Honestly, I feel this is trap; but here's my last effort.

There is a wiki on Downs: here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome

Now according to this wiki 40% of kids with Downs have congenital heart problems. This the only PHYSICAL dangerous thing I can see here they have. And it is not fatal, always. My friend's baby had heart surgery this week and if fine.

I AM NOT A MATH PERSON BUT

About 92% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome are terminated.[5] In the United States termination rates are around 67%; however this varies significantly depending upon the population looked at.[4] When non pregnant people are asked if they would have a termination if their fetus tested positive 23–33% said yes, when high risk pregnant women were asked 46–86% said yes, and when women who screen positive are asked 89–97% say yes.[67]

NOW, if (in US) 40% have heart issues- but 67% abort - that must somehow show that they are not all aborted because of heart disease, right?
 
Downs statistics

But this is REAL interesting. According to the stats below people say they would abort BASED ON THEIR CONCEPTION OF DOWNS, not on ACTUAL LIMITS OF THE CHILD. The stats say 89-97% who test positive want to abort. This infers that these women have NO FACTS about the actual fetus, they just "test positive."

There is no way of saying how many just feel they can't care for a disabled child. There are organizations SPEFICALLY FOR DOWNS children, but also adoption is emotional.

About 92% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome are terminated.[5] In the United States termination rates are around 67%; however this varies significantly depending upon the population looked at.[4] When non pregnant people are asked if they would have a termination if their fetus tested positive 23–33% said yes, when high risk pregnant women were asked 46–86% said yes, and when women who screen positive are asked 89–97% say yes.[67]
 
I don't see where we disagree.

I know SSDI and SSI are the government's way of helping people with disabilities.

However, it takes a hell of a lot of work to get either of those. And then people like Searching complain about "tax burden."

Isn't SSI and SSDI different. I get SSDI. So basically I was employed making $60,000 a year as an inner city teacher. When the prejudice got too much for me (coupled other issues) I went on SSDI, but I think I ME paid for that.


SSI VS SSDI

SSDI is an earned benefit that focuses on physical and mental impairments that are severe enough to prevent people from engaging in their normal occupations or any other work. Their impairment must be expected to last for at least 12 months or to end in death. SSDI benefits can be paid to blind or disabled workers, and like Social Security retirement benefits, to their children, to their widows or widowers, and to adults who haven't worked but have been disabled since childhood.

SSI, meanwhile, pays benefits to low-income people who are 65 or older; to adults who are disabled (based on the same definition used by SSDI) or blind; and to children who are disabled and blind. The program is only for people who have very limited income and assets.

Another key difference is how the two programs are financed. SSDI is funded by the Social Security taxes paid by workers, employers and self-employed people. SSI, on the other hand, is financed by general revenues that the Treasury Department collects to run the U.S. government.

Why the differences? The two programs were established at different times and under different circumstances.

SSDI dates to 1960, when Social Security's rules were amended to permit payment of benefits to disabled workers of any age and to their dependents. These benefits were based on the person's work record, as are retirement benefits. Winning approval for SSDI benefits can come quickly if you've got one of the serious medical conditions named on Social Security's Compassionate Allowance list. Otherwise, you should expect a longer process.You have the right to appeal rejections, culminating in a hearing before an administrative law judge, but it can take almost a year to get such a hearing.

SSI began operating 14 years after SSDI, in 1974, with the Social Security Administration placed in charge of it. The program replaced a maze of disparate state programs that offered benefits, financed by federal aid.

Given those program's welfare origins, SSI benefits have never been tied to a person's work record. In 2012, SSI pays an eligible individual $698 a month while an eligible couple receives $1,048 a month. Although these amounts may be lower if the beneficiary has work income, Social Security will count less than half of the earnings in determining the SSI benefit. And in some states, the amounts may be increased by state subsidies.

To determine whether you qualify for SSI, Social Security tallies up what it calls your "resources" — money in the bank, personal property and various other assets. If these exceed $2,000 for an individual or $3,000 for a couple, SSI can't be paid. (Generally, the home in which you live and one car aren't counted.) For information on exactly what things are counted, see Understanding Supplemental Security Income.

Social Security also looks at your income, applying another complex set of rules that counts some kinds of earnings but ignores others. Depending on how much you make, it's possible to earn modest levels of income and still receive SSI. For a full explanation of the income rules, see Understanding Supplemental Security Income.

Most of the people that I represent have SSI. Some have both because they are getting survivor's benefits for SSDI.

SSI is funded through taxes. SSDI is a system we pay into for our retirement. Many people do not like the idea of paying taxes for ANY type of public welfare programs, regardless of who is on the receiving end. This is due to the American ideal that success is earned through hard work. People with disabilities, especially intellectual disabilities often cannot contribute to society in that way. There is confusion between SSI and SSDI - so people often feel that they are paying for other people to be able to not work and this is taking money away from their own retirement funds. This is not the case, directly.

We disagree because you believe that society owes more to people with disabilities, that they should pay for more programs, etc. I believe that society as a whole is contributing enough. That the general public cannot afford to give more, so the answer is private funding and charity.
 
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Re (from bofish):
"Some of this nonsuccess comes from impairment. Most of it comes from prejudice, attitudes and non-accessiblity. BrigidsDaughter maybe you could speak to this. That said (and who know if anyone but Kevin reads this!) 'they are out there.'"

Kevin definitely reads this. :)

FWIW, Snowbunny (my hinge partner) agrees that people shouldn't abort because of a detected disability. She is mostly pro-choice but not in that area. I actually disagree to some extent (Note the thread title, "Aborting because of a *mild* disability," emphasis added), but I wanted to mention it because you should know you have an additional supporter over here.

@ BrigidsDaughter ... thanks for your perspective here. As an "abled" person (or am I -- bipolar disorder etc.) I only know what I am told by others and this thread has become my main source of education for the moment. It makes me sad to know of the hardships that you have endured and continue to endure.

That's all for now. Am following this thread closely.
 
What the tickety boo is a *mild* disability anyway? One persons mild might be another persons intolerable.

Don't judge that for anyone else please.
 
Yeah, "mild" is an awfully squishy word ...
 
BD- thank you for the education of SSDI versus SSI. So, I have had both --SSi (welfare) when I was young and SSDI which i paid for.

Woud you be open to directly speaking to what I wrote before -- about actually giving up SSDI for the pleasure of working? About my difficulty in maintaining that because of prejudice?

I don't see SSI and SSDI as our disagreement. I see it that you haven't acknowledged many people with disabilities inability to work as a societal problem versus a personal problem, and you ignored my list of people who have succeeded.

Thank Kevin :)!
 
Bofish, can you see anywhere where I called you judgemental.

Not everything is about you.

I was saying that mild is not a very well defined word and no one should judge that for anyone else.
 
NYC - I don't want to ignore your comment. I totally know what you mean. For the record, nearly all my friends have had abortions. One, like you describe, had an abortion with no regret or emotional pain. I don't UNDERSTAND but I can ACCEPT and not judge. But I am curious because your response is the usual feminist one... which leads to my orginal question - how does this leave room for any dialog on the prejudice of disability that bolds over into abortion?

I consider myself a feminist, in practice, not name, and I am totally aware of this argument. One of the reasons I don't identify as a feminist is the exclusion of disabled women. Many theorists believe this has to do, in part, with women's wanting to not associate with "bodies" society views as weaker.

London and others follow the thought that fetuses with disabilities are exclusively or largely aborted because the difficulty of raising such a child. This is simply not accurate ; Many many disabled fetuses are aborted because of PUBLIC PRECEPTION.

NYC- I totally understand where you are coming from...but that was exactly why I posted this. If feminists stick to this silence how can a dialog about abortions based on ableism, racism. and sexism take place. There has to be a way to discuss this AND make women be able to have safe, legal abvortions and their own opinions without stress. But don't you see, your opinion silences discussions about these issues as much a the pro-life saying "abortion is always bad" does. Just because your opinion is based on civil rights (and in my mind is CORRECT) it doesn't mean it doesn't silence dialog.

I am flabbergasted at the way in which you have interpreted my last post.

First of all, I am not arguing for or against anything. I am simply sharing my opinion as part of this discussion. Moreover, what has me completely puzzled is your assumption that my opinion is somehow a feminist stance and is "based on civil rights." Wha...??? I'm not even sure what that means, really. Where does that notion come from? I am not being "political" at all when expressing my views on this. I don't know what the feminists have to say about it, actually, as I haven't aligned myself with any political group in many years and don't do any reading about it. I come to my opinion via my own experiences and pondering on the subject, my personal evolution from "spiritual" to agnostic, and how I see humankind's place in the cosmos. That is all.

So, basically, I don't see abortion as this horrible thing that should burden us with guilt for the rest of our days. Making the choice to terminate a pregnancy it is just a part of life on this earth. Some women bring forth life in their wombs, some take it away. I don't think anyone should question or judge a woman's reasons for doing it. What is the point in that? The world keeps turning. What comes next - forcing women to give birth, as if their bodies are not their own, and their life choices are no longer theirs to make? I don't know why people aren't more sickened by and up in arms about the many kinds of abuse and suffering that so many children, elders, etc. endure in this world than by aborting a fetus.
 
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BD- thank you for the education of SSDI versus SSI. So, I have had both --SSi (welfare) when I was young and SSDI which i paid for.

Woud you be open to directly speaking to what I wrote before -- about actually giving up SSDI for the pleasure of working? About my difficulty in maintaining that because of prejudice?

I don't see SSI and SSDI as our disagreement. I see it that you haven't acknowledged many people with disabilities inability to work as a societal problem versus a personal problem, and you ignored my list of people who have succeeded.

Thank Kevin :)!

I work with many people who choose to give up with SSDI or even their SSI for the chance to work. I have never encountered one who had difficult maintaining their job due to prejudice. My job is to provide assistance to these individuals in learning and maintaining their jobs. 99% of the time any difficulties they have are due to reasons other than prejudice; poor fit of the job, lack of understanding of workplace norms or the inability to conform to workplace norms (not ablist norms) such as showing up on time, taking an appropriate break (they either want to take too long a break or not take a break at all), not saying every thing you think (such as asking customer's if you can touch their "baby" if they appear to be pregnant or telling your co-workers that you have your period and showing them your feminine products), swearing at customers, poor hygiene issues, stealing from your employers (We have one woman who cleans at a laundromat and if not supervised, she will steal customer's quarters that they set down on the counter), or choosing to stop taking their medication and behaving inappropriately on the job (one woman went off her meds and took her top off at work and got fired).

Generally employers in our area are for hiring people with disabilities. Occasionally, I get parents concerned about customer's potentially making comments and I remind them of a recent occurrence at our local Wegmans. An autistic cashier was going slower than his customer liked. She was very rude and aggressively so. Not only did his co-workers stand up for him, but the woman was asked not to return. This is generally the attitude in my area regarding the working disabled. Employers that I have personally worked with as a job coach hold all their employees to the same standards; they expect them to be on time, do their job to the best of their ability, respect their co-workers and supervisors and follow company policies.

As an employment counselor, I do feel that there are some people who should not work. You are not one of them, because you obviously have the right work ethic, education, and drive to succeed. I mainly get referrals for people who are in their early to mid 20's. They have IEP Diplomas, which do not count as a real high school diploma according to NYS and they are generally unable to pass the GED test, so are already under-qualified for many jobs that now require high school diplomas. Our society is pushing education requirements up to where I am under-qualified for some jobs by not having and MSW after my name. They come to me with the same sense of entitlement that all 20 somethings come with, that the world owes them a job and that it doesn't take hard work to find it. They get frustrated with me when I can't make it happen as quickly as they want. Some take their ticket to work to other agencies, some give up the job search in frustration, and others get a job only to find that they don't want to work in the field we spent months if not years trying to get them into.

There is one thing that I will agree with you about that does need changing in society as a whole that has come up in my training. Most people don't think about it, but up until the 1980's -1990's, it was thought that society should take care of people with disabilities - that is provide homes, income, and programs to entertain them. Because they were being provided for (SSI), they were not expected to work. And because of this, they weren't raised with the expectation that they would grow up and get a job. So when typical children were playing dress up, attending career day, and generally being socially conditioned to join the work place, disabled children were not. This has slowly been changing, with the introduction of work study programs for high schoolers with disabilities, but the problem is, that usually parents and teachers are the ones making the decisions about where they will work, etc. The programs vary - some schools the students "work" 2 hrs a day 5 days a week, other's they work half the school day, some only work a couple days a week. When a typical teen is getting their first part time job, families of disabled teens are just beginning to have conversations about the possibility of their teen working. So on average, they get 4 years to "prepare" for entering the work force, when typical children get 16. This isn't right, and it is changing - my son's generation has it better with inclusion classrooms, so maybe the girl in his kindergarten class 7 years ago will enter high school with the knowledge that she should be getting a part time job and what employers will expect, but those are not the people that I am working with.
 
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* not all babies with heart defects are aborted
* heart problems are one issue Downs people can have
 
Jobs

BD,

Thank you so much for writing all this. I have learned so much from you.

I understand and can empathize with the situation.

I think there might be two differences I am not keying into. 1. It sounds like your area of the state is particularly non-prejudicial and that is enlightening and wonderful.

2. I am in a high playing field. I have two Masters and a publishing record and am qualified to be a professor or high school teacher -- probably overqualified for the latter. The people you work with seem to have exclusively lower level positions. Maybe there is something to the fact that having a lower level position is 'acceptable" for a person with a disability and being is a position of "power" is not. The former fits with the perception of disabled people.

That said, it is still great progress. 40 years ago people with disabilities were just shoved into institutions. As you probably know, it took people being handcuffed and carted off to jail to insure curb-cuts and the ADA.

People tend to think things like the ADA happened out of the kindness of people's hearts, but they were fought for like all civil rights.
 
NYc

I am truly sorry I made that assumption of you. I was wrong. I made it because that is what feminists standby.

"I don't think anyone should question or judge a woman's reasons for doing it. What is the point in that?"

I am 100% for legal abortion and a women's right to chose.

I do see the point in discussing aborting disabled fetuses tho because I see that abortion as an extension of the many many many other ways prejudice and ableism functions in society.

My main point is this. I want to DISCUSS. I do not understand (on either side) the point of saying a woman can or a woman can't have an abortion and that's IT. Discussion isn't to promote guilt or 'you should feel bad forever." It's to discuss the attitudes toward "the disabled" that the abled have.

KT -I just though of one thing regarding "becoming disabled" I was on the bus today and I saw all the old people. I remembered most people WILL become disabled. They will lose hearing, sight, or may use a wheelchair or a cane. They may end up in diapers. They will lose their sexual attraction and ability to work. I have a line in a poem that says something to the effect of "my body reminds the abled of their own disintergration." I think that's what I meant.
 
I love this quote From Alison Kafer's book Feminist, Queer, Crip

The recent statements by British advice columnist Virginia ironside about the “suf- fering” of disabled children similarly require a challenge from disability and reproduc- tive rights supporters. in arguing for the right to abortion, ironside stated that know- ingly giving birth to a child with disabilities is cruel, and that in such cases abortion is the “moral and unselfish” response. she added that if she had a sick or disabled child, she would not hesitate to “put a pillow over its face,” as would “any loving mother.” Although ironside’s comments about infanticide have been rightly condemned, her assertion that abortion is the only proper response to disability has prompted little controversy, as has her assumption that advocacy for abortion rights requires accepting the construction of disability as unrelenting tragedy. As reproductive rights advocates who are committed to disability rights, we refuse to accept the rhetorical use of disability as an argument for abortion rights. reproductive rights demands not only access to abortion but also the right to have children, including children with disabilities, access to information about parenting, and the social and economic supports to parent all children with dignity.
 
Re (from bofish):
"KT -- I just though of one thing regarding 'becoming disabled.' I was on the bus today and I saw all the old people. I remembered most people *will* become disabled. They will lose hearing, sight, or may use a wheelchair or a cane. They may end up in diapers. They will lose their sexual attraction and ability to work. I have a line in a poem that says something to the effect of 'my body reminds the abled of their own disintergration.' I think that's what I meant."

Old age often brings disability which is something I've been pondering since my last post here. Thing is with that, people generally assume that they'll retire by the time those disabilities kick in. Doesn't always work out quite that way but the general idea is present in the public mindset.

Some people probably dread retirement more than they do the loss of this or that ability. Just about everyone wants to feel like they are doing something useful and somehow contributing to the good of society. Many people end up returning to work (at least part-time) after they retire. Their workplace experience and tried/true dependability tend to be greatly valued and they are usually welcomed back.

All people have their strengths and weaknesses and any smart employer will be mindful of that.
 
What comes next - forcing women to give birth, as if their bodies are not their own, and their life choices are no longer theirs to make?

I don't think this is a "next" issue. ;) It's already happened and continues to happen off and on.

Otherwise-I totally agree with you!
People focus far too much time on the topic of abortion and far little time on the topic of abuse (in all of its forms).
 
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