Bringing it up?

[Matia]

Hello all,

New to the forum! I'm hoping that you can advise me on how to bring up the possibility of opening my relationship.

Some background: My husband and I are in our late 20s. We've been married for two years and together for 11. We started dating in high school and never separated, so we are each other's only serious relationship and only sexual partners. Over the years, we discussed opening our relationship *very* casually and in a kind of "rather share you than not be with you" kind of way-not the best outlook, I know. We've never had an in depth discussion around the topic, though.

It's been on my mind a lot lately for a lot of reasons. First, I have a friend who is poly and who discusses his relationship with me, so I've talked about it a bunch. It came up because he commented that my husband and I seem to have a very independent marriage and was wondering what our arrangement was. We're monogamous, but close friendships have always been extremely important to my happiness, and I've had emotionally intimate friendships with men and women for years. My husband has a lot of trust in me and he doesn't object to my friendships, even with situations that I've had mutual married friends describe as "weird," such as going drinking one on one or to a guy friend's apartment alone and staying late, etc. Poly friend commented that he thinks I'm at the least emotionally poly, which...I guess? I'm definitely happiest when I can be really open and connected to multiple people who I love. (Not that that has happened all that often)

Secondly, our sex life has never really been great, aside from the first couple years when we were teenagers. A lot of that was on me for a long time, I had to deal with my hang ups surrounding sex that I'm finally--finally, finally!--over. But the last couple years, its been on him. He swears he's still attracted to me, but he has no real interest in any sexual activity. He suffers from depression so I'm sure that's affecting it, and though we've talked about him seeing a doctor or therapist, he hasn't and probably won't any time soon. Me? I'm really interested in sex. I've shed my hang ups and I'm much more comfortable with my sexuality. I'm curious about women. I'm curious about other men. I would like to experience sex with more partners and I'd like to have it about 20x as often as it currently happens for me now.

Finally, romantic feelings have developed for me in one of my close friendships. He and I have admitted our feelings to each other and we're trying to maintain our friendship, having agreed that we won't act on anything. So far, so good there...although it isn't terribly easy. I've had crushes on friends and I've had friends that I'm really emotionally intimate with, but they've never been the same person before...this is new for me. (To be perfectly honest, I don't really know for sure if I would want to act on them even if my relationship opened up because he is one of my closest friends and I don't think I would want to risk losing that, but that's a topic for another day.)

I've tip-toed around the topic with my husband more lately. I've talked about our poly friend and discussed his relationships a bit. He doesn't think it's weird, so thats miles ahead of a lot of people. We both commented on a scene in a tv show with a triad waking up together as "sweet." He's told me that he wouldn't mind me kissing other women if that was something I wanted to actually pursue now, I have his ok. I've mentioned to him how I really like seeing him flirt and get attention from other women....

I don't know how to bite the bullet and say "HEY. This is something I think I would like to pursue now." I'm not entirely sure that I should. Since its at least partially motivated by an active interest I have in another person, I'm not sure how fair it is to broach the subject with him, or if I mention my friend at all as a motivating factor.

I haven't told my husband about my feelings for my friend, essentially because my therapist advised me not to. She seems to think that its akin to cheating already. She thinks that it would only serve to hurt him and not help his depression, which might be a fair point. (She also thinks poly is weird and multiple intimate emotional connections are weird, so we disagree there.) My husband knows that I think the idea of emotional affairs are kinda bullshit, so I don't think he would be 100% blindsided if I did tell him that I have feelings for someone else, but I'm still not sure if I should...I hate feeling dishonest.

I know that regardless of anything else, our sex life is something that we need to work on because I'm missing that intimacy from him. Our relationship is very affectionate and respectful and loving and kind, but it's not perfect and there are things that I'd like to work on, sex and communication being the big ones.

My fear here is that if I do bring it up, my husband will probably agree to whatever I want to do. He doesn't like being at odds with me and if he doesn't like it or it does bother him, I might not find out about that for months or possibly years down the line. I don't want to talk him into something that hurts him or makes him uncomfortable or feel unloved or abandoned. Obviously, I *can* be monogamous, though I don't think it's something I value too highly. If I think back on it, I've probably always been kind of curious about having multiple partners, but its only been the last few years where I've realized, woah, people actually do that. That's actually an option.

Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[sexyserb]

Matia,

You are about to make a decision that is going to alter your relationship one way or the other so I would suggest you answer some tough questions FIRST for yourself.
(1) Is you want or desire to enter into poly truly a want or a need???
(2) Have you exhausted therapy to try to enhance your sexual relationship with your husband?
(3) If you were not married, would the poly lifestyle still interest you, or are you looking for a way to get your needs met and not cheat?
(4) Do you understand fully how this can affect your relationship and accept that fully??
Once you answer all those for yourself, you need to also understand a few other things, some of which you may already know. When you have this conversation with your husband you needed to not sugar coat it and make him think you are looking for some emotional dating and flirting situations. He MUST understand and be on board with you having sexual relations of any type with your partners. Too many times, agreements and boundaries that have no chance of being kept are agreed upon in an effort to “sell it” to the reluctant spouse. When you buy a house, rent an apartment, or buy a car, you DO NOT and CANNOT “ move the goalposts” and tell the landlord or bank that you want to change the rules a few weeks or months down the road, but for some reason some of us think that that is just fine and necessary to do that with all the emotions involved in entering into a poly or swinging lifestyle from a committed monogamous relationship.
You have already indicated you have a potential partner already picked out, which is already jumping the gun. And as a female, your husband needs to fully understand what he is agreeing to in that you are going to find it much easier as a general rule to find partners than he is. Most men will not give a dam if you have five wedding rings on and if they find you attractive will have no qualms about entering into a sexual relationship with you knowing you are married. The exact opposite is what your husband will encounter.
If you read here, you will see what happens when a husband or wife reluctantly is pressured into or sold into trying it without understanding the true implications of what they are agreeing to. You will see “acting out” in bad behaviors as a means of getting some power back. If your husband is not all in, and two weeks after you get him to say yes because you know he will not say no to you, you are in a torrid NRE with another man, you better be prepared for the consequences.
Now, there are some who will advise you to tell him what you need, and that it is his choice to either accept it or leave. And for some, that makes them feel like their conscience can be clear because they did not position it as “Im doing this and I don’t give a shit if you llike it or not”. You have every right to even say that if you want to as long as you are totally prepared to accept what happens after that.
I am sure you will get different opinions. You have a lot of thinking to do. Good luck.

 

[WhatToDo]

Those are great questions SexySerb, especially #4. The vast majority of the problems that get posted here come from people not understanding how this alters your relationship at a base level and every other way imaginable. You have to ask yourself if trying to "fix" on aspect of your relationship is worth changing everything else about that relationship.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you are struggling to open a dialogue with spouse.

You seem to want more sex, more emotional intimacy, better communication. You are not sounding like you are thriving in your present relationship model. If sex and communication magically were fixed to where you could thrive rather than merely survive... would you still want to explore polyshipping?

I could be wrong, but here is what I would do in those shoes. Because for me it bumps on some deal breakers.

1) You could seek a poly-friendly counselor. It's hard to map out how to talk to him with one that is not esp helpful.

http://www.polychromatic.com/pfp/main.php

If you are sticking with the one you have for a bit more, consider giving her this:

http://instituteforsexuality.com/wp...-therapists-should-know-about-Polyamory-1.pdf

If she cannot set aside her personal feelings about polyamory, and you have to talk about polyamory problems, I think she has an ethical responsibility to recuse herself.

2) You could shelve the crush friend.

Might be a possible right person, but not a right person at the right time. So could just let that go.

Could attend to the problems at hand first and become more fit yourself.

You do not present as a poly single picture. You are a poly married picture. And you are not (a healthy married person picture) right now. Don't offer yourself to others in poly-dating when you are a wonky picture. That's not healthy for them to tap into, or for you to offer.

3) You could expect your spouse to take personal responsibility and attend to his depression rather than ignore it.

Your spouse would be a part of your poly picture. He is not a healthy husband for you at this time. Much less a healthy poly partner for you at this time. I don't mean that to sound harsh -- it just it what it is. He is not well. Why would anyone want to saddle themselves with a metamour who is not well? If he is not willing to care for himself appropriately and will not bother? Why are you investing in his well-being when he himself does not bother? Habit? How long has this been going on? What's your upper limit on his going untreated?

IME, when I encounter people like that I experience it as very draining. Like they want me to prop them up. That is not healthy relating to me.

For me in my 20s that lack of taking personal responsibility would have been a deal breaker. It still is. Nobody can help getting ill. They CAN help how they deal with it. I can't respect a partner who cannot respect themselves by caring for themselves properly.

My expectation is partners care for themselves first, then as willing and able help care for their partner. I would wonder how they would help support or nurture me in an healthy interdependent model (my fav) when they cannot cover their own selves first. Depression is no shaming thing to me -- could get counseling, meds, whatever that case needs. Save up money if need be first. But ATTEND to it. That would be the main thing for me.

4) You could expect your spouse could take personal responsibility for handling his feelings and making his own his decisions.

I am going to lift up your last paragraph and repeat it back to you in my own words, ok? I could guess totally wrong, but I want to be sure I get what you mean.

My fear here is that if I do bring it up, my husband will probably agree to whatever I want to do. He doesn't like being at odds with me. If he doesn't like it or it does bother him, I might not find out about that for months or possibly years down the line.

• I am afraid if I bring it up, he will just lie to me about his willingness and his ability to participate at first.
  • In order for him to not have to state his own wants, needs, and limits up front.
  • In order for him to avoid conflict resolution talks.
  • In order for him to be a people pleaser.

• I am afraid that he won't tell me the truth until months or years later after he's become resentful/angry toward me.
  • Even though he would have been the one who lied about his willingness in the first place.

Is that what you meant? Is this a normal pattern in this relationship? And you think it is going to happen again on this subject too?

I don't want to talk him into something that hurts him or makes him uncomfortable or feel unloved or abandoned.

Then don't talk him into anything:

A) Tell him plain what you would like. Maybe something like...

I would like to talk about things on my mind. Could you be willing to talk to me for an hour uninterrupted? How about on Friday at 8 PM?​

B) Then when the date comes...

I have a crush. I could be interested in pursuing him one day or someone like him one day. But not right now. We've been kinda hinting. I realized I would like us to have real polyshipping conversations about what that might look like for us one day. I think those conversations could take a long while. I don't want to cover it all now.

I just want to ID mini conversations that have to happen before we even get to those. I identify these areas that could be improved first before even having a poly convo:

• You have unmanaged depression. I want you attend to that. I want us both healthy.
• We do not always communicate well. I don't want to make changes until we get stronger in that skill.
• We do not share sex as often as I would like. I would like to talk about that.

I think addressing those things would benefit us even if we never get to poly convo.

What do you think? Could you be willing to address those things with me at in near future? What are you not willing to do? ​

That's not being manipulative. That is giving your clear communication and asking him for his. It helps meet your want for better communication -- you trying to be honest and up front.

He will feel however he feels. He is responsible for his experiencing his feelings, exercising self control and doing his emotional management so he can respond appropriately in his behavior. Are you not confident he can do that?

If you have fallen into a "caretaker" role here, where you do his jobs for him and you try to arrange the world for his comfort, you could examine how that happened and why. What stops him from doing his jobs?

Is not taking personal responsibility a character trait here?

I would not attempt polyshipping with a partner who does not take personal responsibility for themselves, their choices, their behaviors. rather than focus outward, I would focus in. I would be examining why I am with this partner, what it takes to improve it, obtain his willingness to participate in repairs.

If partner is not willing and not interested in improvements? I would move on to consider why I am willing stay in a marriage like this -- surviving but not thriving.

I hope your problems are solvable. I truly do. Sounds like some soul searching is in order so you can gather your thoughts together.

GL!

Galagirl

 

[icesong]

Over the years, we discussed opening our relationship *very* casually and in a kind of "rather share you than not be with you" kind of way-not the best outlook, I know.

Y'know, I will say that that's actually how TheKnight and I started to get to where we are now, and I don't know that it's the worst outlook ever. It was only a few years into our relationship - met at 16, got married at 21, and I'm *pretty* sure we had our first experience with someone else before then (I didn't mark it on a calendar back then, LOL!).

We're 33 now and it's still working, at least reasonably well...

I haven't told my husband about my feelings for my friend, essentially because my therapist advised me not to. She seems to think that its akin to cheating already. She thinks that it would only serve to hurt him and not help his depression, which might be a fair point. (She also thinks poly is weird and multiple intimate emotional connections are weird, so we disagree there.)

I agree with GalaGirl that you need to talk to a more poly-friendly therapist if you're going to pursue this. She may be right on the depression thing, but it would be really useful for you to have someone who didn't think a possible life choice of yours is "weird".

Our relationship is very affectionate and respectful and loving and kind, but it's not perfect and there are things that I'd like to work on, sex and communication being the big ones. My fear here is that if I do bring it up, my husband will probably agree to whatever I want to do. He doesn't like being at odds with me and if he doesn't like it or it does bother him, if he doesn't like it or it does bother him, I might not find out about that for months or possibly years down the line.

I tell you from experience - this is a poly deal breaker. It's pretty much impossible to juggle multiple relationships if you can't trust someone to tell you when they have a problem with something. I've tried to squash things to make a partner happy and I've had them to do that to me, and both blew up in everyone's faces. If this isn't a communication pattern you can work on to at least some degree, I really really really recommend not walking down this road.

 

[sexyserb]

Matia,

You got more good advice. The only thing I would be careful on is that you already have a crush so he is going to probably feel like he is being pushed right from the start. And I agree with Gala Girl that your MC needs to recluse herself if she openly expresses negative feelings about poly, but i also do not think you should be seeking out a therapist who your husband on top of the head start you have may also feel is predisposed to agree with you. i would seek out someone you feel can be neutral.
Gala Girl also i think advised you that you need to make sure you make every attempt to communicate what he and you need and what he needs to do for you in order to meet your needs. he owns 50%.
Lastly, I think you need to shelve your crush and cut it off. if you are really poly you will find another partner AFTER you two talk this out and reach some sort of agreement.
If you went to a responsible swingers group or poly group, the first thing you are going to hear is the truth. Entering into this new lifestyle is NOT going to solve problems in a marriage but it IS going to bring out problems. non monogamy thrives in a healthy way when both partners are on the same page or close to it.
I would still do some real soul searching on this before you bring this up and if you do and he just agrees I think the worst thing you can do is a week or two later tell him you are going to have sex with another man.

 

[IndieSolo]

Check out the Golden Nuggets forum for a thread called Links to Threads Worth Reading, or something like that. In it, on or about the last page, is a post with some links to other threads on bringing up polyamory/opening up with a partner. Or do a search. You will find many threads with good advice and personal experiences to read on the same subject, since this kind of thing gets posted here frequently.

 

[Matia]

I read all of your responses, questions, and advice. I really appreciate them. I'm hoping to respond to some of your questions but right now I wanted to post an update as this week has kind of pushed this issue to the forefront.

My husband and I have problems in our relationship and after seeing what was said here made me even more committed to working on them. The issues we're facing are issues that I've accepted for too long and am really making it known to him now how unhappy I am with them unchanged and unresolved. My plan was to put the poly discussion on the back burner and focus on attending to the problems in my marriage. My husband and I started seeing a couples therapist (who does happen work with poly relationships) a few weeks ago. My husband recognized that his depression has been unmanaged and I admitted to my resentment towards him due to that. He opened up a bit in therapy even though he was terrified to be there. I felt pretty good with these developments and going into the holidays made me feel a lot more connected to him.

As I mentioned, I decided to shelve the poly discussion for the time being, but circumstances kind of pushed it to the forefront in a way that I really was not expecting?

(Cutting the friend that I'm interested in out of my life is not an option. For one thing, he's really integrated into my group of friends and company so its not really possible even if I was willing to do so.)

I met him and his coworkers and his girlfriend at a bar recently. He disappeared for a while and she and I chatted most of the night. It was a really nice time, but I was not expecting him to text me almost immediately after leaving saying that his girlfriend had a wonderful time talking and is very interested in me as she doesn't normally connect that quickly to people. Since he knows my husband is ok with my involvement with other women, to some extent, he wanted to know if the interest was mutual and if it was something I would be wanting to pursue.

Which...again. Not in any way how I saw any of this playing out...

I get home and immediately give my husband an account of the texts. He's calm when he asks me what I want to do and if I'm interested in her as well. I tell him that I've hung out with her 3-4 times and I'm not sure as it generally takes me a long time and strong connection to someone to see if I have romantic interest in them, but I like her and I'm not opposed to the idea. He seems somewhat intrigued and "pretty sure" that he would be comfortable with my involvement with a woman.

We talked about it more over the next couple days. I told him that I could be interested in her, but even if it is something I would want to pursue, my priority is him and us. I told him that there are issues in our marriage that we need to resolve and that I know that it's not the time to be bringing more people into our relationship. But he and I acknowledged that we've hypothetically discussed the idea of polyamory over the years and that now might be the time to consider it as an actual option.

We talked about fears and issues that we would have with it, such as the fear of wanting to simply leave the marriage for a monogamous relationship with another partner. He brought up my friend, asking if I thought he was trying to set me up with his girlfriend so that I could eventually have a threesome/be involved with the two of them. I assured him that it wasn't. [and truly, it was not his angle: we've talked many times about my boundaries and he understood that my husband was possibly open to the idea of other women, only, when he brought this up, and he knows that i'm not willing to cheat.]

I asked my husband what he felt the difference was between the possibility of me being with other men vs other women. He said that he knows that it's the same thing and that he shouldn't feel any different, and that his mentioning my friend specifically as a source of possible discomfort was probably more due to the fact that he knows that friend and I are very close to each other, and bringing a romantic relationship on top of that closeness brings him back to the main fear mentioned above. I told him that's understandable because I share that fear as well, but that to me, without a strong emotional connection or love, there isn't much point in having sexual relationships with others. And that is why its important that our relationship be in a good place if we decide to pursue any outside relationships. I tell him that friend and I have had discussions about my physical boundaries and that friend knows and respects them and doesn't want to cause any issues to us. [I didn't mention the feelings that friend and I have for each other. I want to, probably if we decide to go down the poly route, but it felt like it would be too much right now. ]

On my friend's side, he and his girlfriend discussed their interest in me and he told her about his feelings for me developing before they started dating, but it was important to him to not invade my marriage so he didn't push anything. They both agreed that they didn't want to cause any problems for my husband and I. I spent time with him over the weekend and we discussed everything very openly and I reiterated what my boundaries are and it was weirdly encouraging? Discussing everything so honestly with him and having his girlfriend involved in that discussion took a lot of the feeling of danger out of the situation. I told friend that my husband and I are considering the possibility of polyamory but that we want to work on our marriage as our #1 priority right now. I mentioned my husband's tendency to agree to what I want to make me happy even if its not really what he wants, which is why its important that we really take the time to think about this decision. [also stressed that to husband.]

So! Summary: Husband and I are going to therapy to address our issues. Polyamory subject broached and is currently being researched by the both of us. We'll decide down the line (no timeline) whether it's something that we want to actually pursue if the issues in our marriage are resolving. Friend and his gf are on board with all this and I will be continuing my friendship with him and likely? developing one with her as well? Husband supports that...it feels like everyone is more or less on the same page right now. I'm not being fully honest with my husband, but a hell of a lot more than I was a few weeks ago. It feels like it's headed in the right direction in terms of being able to communicate openly with him. (Also, could be totally unrelated, but my after 2 months of no sexual contact, we've been intimate 3 times in the last week since this conversation was initiated....)

I'm still a little stunned. I did not expect this discussion to happen this way.
Any additional thoughts are welcome.

 

[IndieSolo]

Oh, I think you're doing great and handled everything that happened with compassion, honesty, and grace. Could be that the feeling of freedom that was created from discussing and taking actions on difficult subjects helped bring you both closer and sparked more sexual desire between you (it's always much more than just physical, and I think feeling more solidarity with each other translates into wanting deeper connection in more ways). Also, kudos to your hubs for finally agreeing to go to therapy and address his depression. You are obviously both brave and willing to face issues.

Remember that there is no reason to rush into having multiple relationships. When established couples embrace polyamory, they will have a much better chance of surviving and thriving if their relationship is as stable, strong, and happy as possible. Someone here recently posted an update after being away a long time and said that they and their partner had jumped into trying poly too soon and in their words, "failed miserably." They wound up taking six months to recover from that and then another two years discussing opening up their relationship before they felt really ready and stable enough to proceed with actually pursuing other people for relationships. I was so glad that member had posted the reality of what happened. Not to say that you nor anyone else will need the same time frame, but we see here all too often what kind of disasters can happen when people do not give enough forethought to opening their marriage or relationship.

I hope you keep us updated. All the best to you!

 

[Magdlyn]

Having more sex because of opening up and speaking honestly is quite common! And sex is an anti depressant. So, good chance all this new openness and therapy will continue to improve and mature your marriage.

Just one thing I want to caution you about. As a formerly mono person who has only had sex with one person in her life, beware of the pitfalls of trying to take on TWO new sexual partners at once here. That would mean you'd be going from one to three. Very complicated even for more seasoned polyamorists. There is no reason to rush into taking on your crush's gf, in a full on sexual threesome thing right away. Maybe

work on marriage
open marriage
date your crush

let some time pass.... and then revisit dating the woman as well. Go slow. Your husband might have trouble enough dealing with your NRE for one person, much less two. Jumping into dating 2 new people at once could double the amount of mistakes you could make out of naivete, and could double the amount of harm and pain you could cause, to 4 people total.

 

[IndieSolo]

Oh, yes, Mags has a great point. While reading her post, it occurred to me that as a way to avoid your crush for your male friend, you might be tempted to try a relationship with his girlfriend only because it is a second best to what you really want - a relationship with him! Don't try to subsume your crush on him inside of any less-than-genuine gestures toward being with her. Unless you truly feel a full-on attraction and desire to be emotionally/intellectually/physically intimate with her for her own sake and not as a way to get closer to her boyfriend, don't go there. It wouldn't be fair to anyone in that situation if it was any other way.

But it sounds like any involvement with other people will be a ways off. Go slowly.

This is all stuff to consider after you and your husband strengthen your connection to each other, his depression is better managed, and you both truly feel ready for poly. Glad you got a more understanding therapist, too.

 

[Matia]

Maybe

work on marriage
open marriage
date your crush

let some time pass.... and then revisit dating the woman as well. Go slow. Your husband might have trouble enough dealing with your NRE for one person, much less two.

This is how I would ideally like to go about it when/if husband and I decide to open up. I hope it works out this way but the possibility feels a little too good to be true right now! We'll see.

Don't try to subsume your crush on him inside of any less-than-genuine gestures toward being with her. Unless you truly feel a full-on attraction and desire to be emotionally/intellectually/physically intimate with her for her own sake and not as a way to get closer to her boyfriend, don't go there. It wouldn't be fair to anyone in that situation if it was any other way.

I totally agree. My friend actually brought that up, [and immediately apologized when he saw my reaction!] saying that he thought I might be able to kind of "transfer" my feelings for him onto her. I said that I don't work that way, and he knows better than anyone that I have to know someone really well and it takes a long time for me to feel comfortable enough with someone to develop a romantic interest in them...so while I genuinely like his gf as a person...who knows? at this point. I'm really happy that she likes me and I'm really looking forward to getting to know her better, but it will be a while before I know if I feel anything other than a purely physical attraction to her.

They are still looking for potential partners for his gf right now anyway, after I let them know where my husband and I stood and any opening of our relationship could be a while down the line. So even if nothing happens with her, I'm grateful that her interest made me brave enough to finally bring this up with my husband. I'm looking forward to continued honesty with him about this, and hopefully I will be able to mention the feelings friend and I have for each other. I've seen over the last few days the immense amount of trust he has in me [even after mentioning that friend and I have had to have discussions about physical boundaries, he has no qualms with me hanging out with him] and I don't want to do anything to jeopardize that.

 

[Magdlyn]

Can we get nicknames for your crush and his gf?

So, "they" are looking for a partner for her? A woman only? And for them to share? Can't she look for a gf for herself? I never get when people's primaries go looking for a partner for their partner. I think that is the responsiblity of the person wanting a new SO!

Just a note of caution. I hope they aren't "unicorn hunters" looking to "add a third" to "join their relationship." That puts pressure on you to see if you could be attracted to them both. And there's a whole lotta ways that can go wrong. Do a tag search here for "unicorn hunter" if you don't believe me.