Broken boundaries and unsure

[LAsoul88]

Hi all,

I posted a month or so ago about some troubles that I was having just starting with Poly. Quick recap, my girlfriend and I set our rules and on her second sexual encounter with a man she broke the no condom rule that she was very adamant about herself. She decided that she wanted to close down her poly side to reevaluate her situation and work on her and myself. She was very strongly in support of me continuing to stay open and experimenting.

I'm much slower to find dates/relationships, but this last weekend, I finally had a date setup. It has been a little while since she closed her side off, and I brought that up to see where she was at. She told me that being with me made her feel particularly happy to be monoamorous, but I sensed she might be trying to convince herself of that. I asked if she was ready to reopen her side (and I sincerely meant it), but she insisted that she wasn't ready. I saw her on Saturday night/Sunday morning and we had a great time. My date was set for Sunday night. She was feeling jealous about my date because of some similarities between the two of them. Still, she seemed alright about the date. I went off to take care of some business for the day before the date and she went home.

It ended up my date canceled and I texted my girlfriend to see what she was up to. She was heading over to hang out with the man that she broke the condom rule with before (they work together and were friends before getting involved). I felt a little strange about it and I know I should have brought it up, but I trusted her so I said nothing about it. I had a performance and called her after like we planned. I didn't hear from her until hours later and she ended up having sex (partially without a condom) with him again.

She has since told me that she feels like she can't control herself when she is with him. She likes that excitement but also feels that it is unhealthy. This led to a big fight but ended yesterday with a great talk about our communication.

My question here is has anyone ever dealt with a partner that doesn't feel like they can control themselves with someone else? It hurts a lot because I have been so trusting and she has consistently broken rules that she creates (though they are important to both of us). She says that she goes into situations with him knowing what she intends to do, but that all falls by the wayside at some point.

She has offered to cut things off with him, and I will admit that would make me feel a bit better. But it really sucks to think our love wasn't enough to keep her honest with regards to our rules and safety.

We had a long talk about it and she has assured me that the sex and relationship as a whole with me a great for her, but that she gets some of that bad boy interest from him (I'm not exactly straight-laced, but I'm entirely respectful with my passion. I don't push her past boundaries that she has been clear about).

This whole relationship is leaving me feeling very insecure and fearful now for her health as well as mine. I feel like she has some agency in this but she claims that he is somehow able to get her to do things that push her boundaries.

I might not be looking for advice so much as a discussion about this incident. I definitely love her, but I'm not sure now where she stands despite what she says. Actions do tend to speak louder than words, and it feels like whatever love we do have isn't enough to keep me in mind. Is that an effective way to think about things? I know the common advice would be that if it is too much trouble, I should just let her go. That doesn't feel right to me though. Any thoughts from the community?

 

[KC43]

Regardless of what this other guy does to her, she is CHOOSING to act on her impulses and desires with him. She CAN control herself; she's choosing not to, and she's choosing not to take responsibility for that.

She's putting her sexual health and yours at risk, potentially, by continuing to have unprotected sex with this guy.

She's continuing to damage your trust by acting sexually with him when she's told you she won't, and by not using a condom with him when the two of you have agreed that condoms will always be used.

She's offered to stop spending time with him--didn't she do that already? Wasn't that what happened when she said she was closing her side of the relationship? And yet she saw him again anyway.

She is being dishonest with you, and possibly with herself. You need to decide whether you're okay with that. This isn't something she's likely to stop doing, given that you've already had this situation involving this guy and she's already gone back on what she told you the first time.

 

[LAsoul88]

She did commit to not sleeping with anyone else, but we made no stipulation on her not spending time with him. He was a friend before all of this and they had hung out in groups a couple times since the last incident where nothing happened.

I know I need to figure this out, and I'm not sure how. Despite her actions, it still feels like we have a strong connection. When we do things together, it just feels right. That said, everything you have mentioned is running through my head and I'm very concerned about this sort of behavior repeating. My logical mind knows that there are red flags here and that I should think about protecting myself, but my emotional side really wants to work things out. It brings me back to a Percy Sledge lyric "lovin eyes can never see..."

We have plans to meet up tonight and discuss everything. I have been nothing but honest about what I want, and I'll have to see where she thinks she is actually at.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you struggle. You sound disappointed in her behavior.

She has offered to cut things off with him, and I will admit that would make me feel a bit better. But it really sucks to think our love wasn't enough to keep her honest with regards to our rules and safety.

Actions do tend to speak louder than words, and it feels like whatever love we do have isn't enough to keep me in mind. Is that an effective way to think about things?

I do not think so. Could remove "our love" from it.

Could keep it on "behavior done/not done." That is how I would evaluate. So far?

• She promises she will stick to condoms with other lovers.
• Two strikes so far because she has chosen NOT to use them.
• Missing Skill: Lack of follow through on her word.

• You ask her Saturday/Sunday morning if she's ready to Open her side. She says no. She's made a commitment to not sleeping with anyone else at this time.
• Sunday she goes out with him and shares sex. That's Open to me.
• Missing Skills: Lack of follow through on her word. Lack of up front communication / honesty if she was planning to see him and knows she's tempted by him. To me I would have preferred hearing "I intend to keep it Closed, but I am seeing X later on. So I could change my mind. Giving you the heads up."

This whole relationship is leaving me feeling very insecure and fearful now for her health as well as mine. I feel like she has some agency in this but she claims that he is somehow able to get her to do things that push her boundaries.

Missing Skill: Taking personal responsibility for her behavior choices. NOT passing the buck. (In this case, on him and his magical persuasion powers she just "cannot" resist.)

Again, this is not about "our love." This is about her interpersonal skills and her chosen behaviors.

My logical mind knows that there are red flags here and that I should think about protecting myself, but my emotional side really wants to work things out.

How do YOU work out a problem in HER behavior? You cannot control her behavior. You can only control yours.

If you don't want to break up at this time? And you choose to remain her lover? YOU could step it up on YOUR own sex health practices. Let go of fluid bonding with her. Use condoms and whatever other barriers you need (ex: gloves) for your sex play with her. Get tested regularly knowing and accepting she has unprotected sex with other partners.

You could also form and articulate your hard limits. I have a personal 3 strike limit to keep me from hanging around a person who keeps breaking agreements with me because my love for them might tempt me to let them slide again... to my own detriment. Yours might be 3, 5 or 10 strikes. But certainly not 100 strikes on this same issue, right?

I suggest you figure out your hard limit, and what the natural consequence will be. Then YOU stick with it. Like if you decide you have a 3 strike limit, and the consequence is you stop dating her if she keeps on breaking her word because you want to be in a relationship that has trustworthiness and personal integrity in it? You could make her aware of your boundaries. There. Released from old promises. Nobody is forcing her to promise anything new. But keep them if she does promise new ones. You have a hard limit and a consequence in place she's been made aware of. Then sit back and let her behavior dictate what happens. Natural consequences.

Your boundaries are for YOU to keep to help keep YOU safe. If she does X, you will do Y. Done. Being a bit firmer about it might help you feel more secure in yourself.

She could never again do X behavior and it never is an issue. But if she does, you and she both know what to expect from you.

I get it is painful to think about, but hanging around a person you cannot trust is not the makings of a healthy relationship. She can try to learn those missing skills, but if her effort doesn't make the cut, it simply doesn't make the cut, dude. You deserve to be treated well and with respect. That includes you respecting you enough to get out of the line of fire.

If nothing else, put a time limit on it. Say X months. If it is still less than "joyous yes, excited to be here, hooray!" for you with no improvement in sight? She doesn't make the cut in learning the missing skills? Let it go. Just not a runner at this time. Could be free of it.

HTH!
Galagirl

 

[LAsoul88]

Thanks KC43 and GalaGirl.

As I think about it, I personally don't disagree with any of what you both have written. There is still so much to think about and it seems like it will be an eternity before we actually get to talk about it tonight. However, I do want to care for myself and I now think I know what path to walk regardless of tonight's outcome.

 

[Bluebird]

She is choosing to make these decisions. To have sex with someone, to go without a condom - those are CHOICES - she's making them all throughout the sexual encounter. At any point she can choose to make different ones. She is an adult, and part of being one is taking responsibility for actions taken.

About a year ago I had unprotected sex with a FWB. He had been tested recently and I felt ok with that decision. Things were hot and heavy and I didn't want to go out in the snow to my car to get the condoms. Afterward, I had to talk to both my boyfriend at the time and my husband and explain why I thought that was a good choice. My husband was ok, but that boyfriend was very unhappy, and would not have sex with me again until I had a clear test.

Yeah, I liked the excitement and we were way out of control together - but it was a choice. As much as I wanted it to not have been so intense, it was, and that's what happened. The consequences sucked. (That boyfriend and I ended up splitting a couple of months later.)

So, my opinion: It doesn't sound like she wants to take responsibility. Passing her choices off as something she can't control is garbage.

You need to decide yourself if you can live with her choice to be untrustworthy and unable to own her decisions.

 

[Invi]

A thought from a person who has previously had a partner that I found it very, very difficult to control myself around.
We had some wicked chemistry and he knew how to get me going and gradually get me to a place where I was making poor decisions because I did not want the good feels to stop. Keeping it going felt more important than the potential consequences.
But my decisions put me there to begin with, and the choices I continued to make were of my own free will.


I have not seen my former partner, who I considered one of my friends, in.. 6 years or so. I cut him out of my life and only talk to him online because we consistently made poor choices while in each other's presence.

So I might know how she feels, but she needs to own it. If she can not make good decisions while around him, she should probably choose to not be around him.

 

[MoostacheKitteh]

My previous relationship was exactly the same way, I felt like I was reading my past! My ex and I were not polyamorous, we were committed but decided to have an open relationship where we both went to swinger parties and met people to have fun and sex with. He had a crush on this girl he had known for a while and I was a little uncomfortable about it at first but I eventually warmed up to the idea. When I was away visiting family for a couple weeks he asked me over the phone if he could have sex with her, I told him yes as long as he abided by a couple of rules such as using a condom and not doing it in my car, I didn't care where he did it as long as it wasn't in my car which was the only car we had at the time. I told him specifically that if they were going to be intimate to go all the way or not at all, I didn't want him to think he could just do whatever he wanted with her whenever he wanted to, that wasn't how our relationship was.

Well the next day he called and told me that they didn't have intercourse but they made out and she played with his privates and I got so upset. I yelled at him and told him how upset I was and he was confused, he misunderstood what my rules were. When I asked him where they did it and he said my car I was even more furious, that was 2 out of 3 rules he had broken, and just merely hours after he agreed to them. The kicker here is that while I was gone he continued to do things with her behind my back and that's not even the worst part, the worst part was when he called me and told me that the more his feelings for her grow, the more confused he became about his feelings for me and that is what hurt. He couldn't love us both equally which made me realize he wasn't polyamorous and that he just had commitment issues.

It was his loss in the end when I left him for another guy a couple months later and that other girl who he thought wanted to be with him screwed him over simultaneously. Oh he was sorry that his lover of 3 and a half years was now gone and he was all alone with his regrets.

Your relationship sounds a lot more genuine than that and I feel like you two can work things out, even if your girlfriend is seeing another guy. I am sure she still really loves you and is just confused about the feelings she is feeling for him because it's new to her.Hang in there and keep trying, I know it will work out.

 

[LAsoul88]

It's unfortunate that our start to poly has been so tough and rocky as I really want to make this kind of relationship work for me.

I'm a rather shy person, so finding dates and relationships generally takes me a lot longer than most people. It had been a long time since I had been in a relationship before my current gf. I feel such a strong connection with her and she shared so many similar views on relationships. Opening up our relationship was my idea initially, but she was on board. I've found I enjoy being in a relationship more than being single, but this still gave me a chance to explore on work on things that I needed to. In general, she has been great about supporting my pursuit of other women.

I feel like this particular girl that I was going on a date with was too similar to her and set off some kind of trigger. There's still no excuse as she is a grown woman that makes her own decisions, but it makes me feel like the whole situation wasn't so simple. We probably should have talked a lot more about how insecure she felt.

This whole poly thing is so damned confusing, but the possible seem so much deeper and fulfilling than settling for a "normal relationship" style that I never truly believed in anyway.

 

[Inyourendo]

If you can accept that you just can't trust her then you'll probably be ok having no rules, she can do what she wants without consequense from you and you protect yourself by not engaging in unprotected sex with her.

 

[GalaGirl]

I feel like this particular girl that I was going on a date with was too similar to her and set off some kind of trigger. There's still no excuse as she is a grown woman that makes her own decisions, but it makes me feel like the whole situation wasn't so simple. We probably should have talked a lot more about how insecure she felt.

Could you be willing to clarify that bit? I don't get it.

What does that mean? What is complicated?

• That you and her both expect her to know and articulate what's going on in her head so you can be made aware?
• Or that she prefers you to "drag it out of her" rather than her disclosing up front?
• Or that you and her both expect you to be a mind reader and "just know" what is going on in her head?

I could be wrong, but you seem to put all this rough going into the "new to polyshipping bucket." Have you considered that maybe some of it belongs in the "maybe this is not the healthiest partner for me to be polyshipping with" bucket?

If her knee jerk response to feeling insecure about you having a simple date is to run off to share sex with Mr X to prove to herself that she's still wanted by someone? To one up you? Or some other odd thing? Rather than ask for reassurance and to make a date with you to talk it out later? Then she sounds kinda messed up, dude.

• I'm a rather shy person, so finding dates and relationships generally takes me a lot longer than most people.
• It had been a long time since I had been in a relationship before my current gf.
• Opening up our relationship was my idea initially, but she was on board.
• I enjoy being in a relationship more than being single.
• this still gave me a chance to explore and work on things that I needed to.

I mean this kindly ok? Not judge-y or anything. I could be wrong, but here's my impression....

Are you aware that list could seem like you keep her around because you don't like being alone? That you know she's not great in character, but you are grateful that she at least keeps you from being alone while you seek another?

If what you want her for is to be your stepping stone person -- that's fine so long you and she both are clear on that, you keep on dating, and use protection with her. But if that is what she is to you, guard against you romanticizing the relationship or her character traits. Because if you tell yourself stories and are not honest with yourself, it does indeed get complicated inside your head.

Galagirl

 

[LAsoul88]

Could you be willing to clarify that bit? I don't get it.

What does that mean? What is complicated?

• That you and her both expect her to know and articulate what's going on in her head so you can be made aware?
• Or that she prefers you to "drag it out of her" rather than her disclosing up front?
• Or that you and her both expect you to be a mind reader and "just know" what is going on in her head?

I could be wrong, but you seem to put all this rough going into the "new to polyshipping bucket." Have you considered that maybe some of it belongs in the "maybe this is not the healthiest partner for me to be polyshipping with" bucket?

If her knee jerk response to feeling insecure about you having a simple date is to run off to share sex with Mr X to prove to herself that she's still wanted by someone? To one up you? Or some other odd thing? Rather than ask for reassurance and to make a date with you to talk it out later? Then she sounds kinda messed up, dude.

• I'm a rather shy person, so finding dates and relationships generally takes me a lot longer than most people.
• It had been a long time since I had been in a relationship before my current gf.
• Opening up our relationship was my idea initially, but she was on board.
• I enjoy being in a relationship more than being single.
• this still gave me a chance to explore and work on things that I needed to.

I mean this kindly ok? Not judge-y or anything. I could be wrong, but here's my impression....

Are you aware that list could seem like you keep her around because you don't like being alone? That you know she's not great in character, but you are grateful that she at least keeps you from being alone while you seek another?

If what you want her for is to be your stepping stone person -- that's fine so long you and she both are clear on that, you keep on dating, and use protection with her. But if that is what she is to you, guard against you romanticizing the relationship or her character traits. Because if you tell yourself stories and are not honest with yourself, it does indeed get complicated inside your head.

Galagirl

@Galagirl

I'll clarify. This relationship is interracial as well as poly. I'm a white man and she's a black woman. It is my first time "dating outside my race" but she has done so before and had some unhealthy relationships. My date was with another black woman that shares many of the same interests that my gf and I do in addition to being of similar body type, build, etc. There is a lot of baggage there and she mentioned that it made her feel insecure. I wouldn't say I wrote it off, but I didn't understand how sensitive it was. At the beginning of our relationship, my family was unfortunately (and to my great surprise) not supportive of our relationship due to the difference in race. I made decisions early on to appease my family that nearly compromised our relationship. I lost her trust for a bit there, but she stuck with me to work through it.

The strange thing is I've never had to drag a single thing out of her. Until this guy came around, I really felt like I knew where she was at because we have been very open about our emotions and thoughts with each other from the start. I understand that it seems like she is simply untrustworthy, but there was previously no history of this behavior (before we opened our relationship up).

That all said, I agree that the first reaction should not have been running back to Mr. X to feel wanted. Since we have discussed things last night, not only does she agree, but she has started to own the responsibility. It doesn't make everything okay, but it does incline me to give another chance.

As for the reasons I listed for being in a polyship with her, those are just that. I don't think you're entirely wrong about your evaluation of where I'm coming from. These are not the reasons for the relationship however. Outside of the poly portion of our relationship, we share tastes in things like music (very important to me as we're both musicians), the kind of friends we keep, and how we like to spend our time together. Neither of us want to be married or have kids, and we both have creative pursuits that are wholly supported by each other.

I could go on listing the reasons, but this is why I don't want to drop the relationship despite having my trust broken twice. You certainly can't have a relationship without trust, and I have been back and forth about how to handle this. I continually land on wanting to work through it on the condition that she is willing to put in the work to rebuild this trust. As of last night's discussion, she has made it clear that she will cut Mr. X off (not simply as a lover but a friend as well) and that she wants to rebuild my trust.

I know the possibilities for hurt/betrayal that I'm opening myself up to here. It may never happen, or it may be that in 3 weeks this happens again. If that be the case, I'll know without a doubt how things will continue. Thanks again to everyone here for sharing your stories, thoughts, advice, and support.