Change in all the areas of my life...

madgrey

New member
we ended up setting up the medieval pavilion in the front yard and having pizza and cupcakes and nerf gun battles with MM’s best friend, friend’s brother, and then Knight and Artist and another friend of ours who lives around the corner

FWIW, this sounds amazing, covid or no. Happy birthday to the smol person! 🥳
 

icesong

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Life continues, in much the same timewarp (my computer really wants to change that to timeworn, which is somehow also suitable) pattern of this endless year. MiniMe continues to be... well. This year is hardest on him of any of us, really, not having "pixel people" to consistently interact with the way the adults around him do. So he's understandably depressed, and for a kid who was already ADHD / emotionally volatile... that's a lot.

Other than dealing with that though, Knight and I are doing reasonably well. Not fighting when we have disagreements or I get hurt feelings, which is something (actually we haven't fought REALLY badly, since I went on antidepressants, so that's kind of big.)

And Joan and I still are doing reasonably well with living together, plus or minus some level of me still getting used to not being as much of a priority as I once was. Though to be honest I had somewhat let myself be *too* accommodating. I made a comment somewhere else here that I spent more quality time with Artist than I do Knight, and realized that not only was that true but it also worked out (somewhat obviously) that Knight spent more actual time with Joan than me, though I doubt she'd think that. But once I really pointed that out (I had said it here before I said it to Knight) he agreed that we need to fix that, specifically. And we very specifically watched a movie together last night after kiddo went to bed, which we hadn't done in a while. So that's something.

There's only the nagging worry of what happens if the corona numbers keep going the direction they are... I can't do another lockdown like the first one away from Artist.
 

Vicki82

Active member
I so often get a sense of deja vu when I read your blog, because it feels like we have a lot of experiences that are close enough. I definitely have very different sexual relationships with both Henry and Charles, and your really well expressed post got me thinking that I wanted to talk to Henry about that. I still love our sex life but it definitely has far more of the playful energy than the intense passion I have with Charles. And maybe that's just how they are. I enjoy sex with both of them, it's just different. I would like sometimes though to shake it up a bit and have that intensity with Henry, but I think we both find that much easier to accomplish in kink than in sex.

I dunno. I don't have that sense of frustration that I hear that you have, and kinda using your post as an opportunity to have that conversation with Henry and see how he's feeling so if we are having issues, we can talk about it. Yay for uncomfortable conversations! lol.

Kiddo is having major meltdowns, too. Isolation sucks donkey balls. Does MiniMe play Minecraft at all? Maybe we could hook them up lol.

I think winter is going to get bad. I'm expecting further lockdown restrictions here soon. I couldn't go through that again either if Charles hadn't moved in at least temporarily.
 

icesong

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It’s interesting to me that the frustration comes in waves, somehow, and right now it’s actually at an ebb. Somehow I’ve hit a point that despite all the frustration I was writing about last month - and still occasionally feel, yes, but less so - I... am somehow more confident about Knight’s feelings toward me? Or somehow I’ve finally managed to cut that last link that made me believe that sex and love HAD to be the same thing.

I’m not sure why the change. Maybe it was just a few times where he at least tried to make moves on me and I _wasn’t_ necessarily all over it that made me realize that whatever gap there was between us wasn’t one sided.

I love him. Madly. But right that feels better as a ... “I want to be with him” not a “I want to jump him” feeling.

I think part of it is just that with covid I’ve spent more... domestic? for lack of a better word... time with Artist and that’s not killing the heat between us. Like even if we start out just watching a random TV drama together, well... if I didn’t cut it off after the last scene I think we might be fucking before the credits finished rolling. And it’s... utterly glorious, of course, but more importantly I’m somehow ok with it just being _different_.

Not a thing I expected. But the peace is kind of nice.

(All bets are still off if I’ve been drinking, I get emotional about this... but the amazing thing right now is that even if I’m a little bit volatile we’ve still been able to talk about things in a pretty reasonable way. So that’s... actually amazing progress.)
 

icesong

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And yes, things are going to get bad this winter, and I’m trying not to think about that. I half wonder whether it’ll lead to Artist living with me part time as we discussed before.

At least you and Henry have kink for the intensity - the funny thing is that Knight and I have played around with kink for ages, but even in that we tend to want different things. 🤷🏻‍♀️ He doesn’t read me the same way as Artist so his flavor of sadism ends up pushing the wrong directions, so we don’t really play with that much. Actually we haven’t played in that way since I’ve been collared, and that’s... not something I want to change at the moment. I don’t know how to begin to be submissive or masochistic with someone who doesn’t know my reactions better than I do, anymore.

The good thing about this is that I’m not expecting him to do so, though.
 

icesong

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Amazing, or at least someone that I could do the particular flavor of D/s I like most with - while both of my partners are quite good Tops in a physical sense, I'm not sure either of them have the desire to get into my head in the way that HipsterBoy once did. C'est la vie, I'm sure I'll find it again one day, it's not urgent.
I was reading through old entries trying to find a description for someone on another board, and this stuck out at me. I’m so amused at writing this when what I wanted, and even more, was right there in front of me. And now Artist is so much further into my head than Hipster ever was - maybe it’s just because I trust him so very much.

Haven’t been posting much because there’s not a lot new to say - working more, which is good, having fewer fights with Knight, even better. Being on antidepressants has very much helped my temper / sensitivity to rejection which means we can talk about things rather than fight about them.

The only problem left - at least not counting world problems and not being able to see friends - is MiniMe... he’s so defiant and wild so much of the time, and we clash so badly. I don’t think he does it on purpose, exactly, but I still don’t really understand why he does... and my improved temper only helps so much with this.
 

Vicki82

Active member
I think it's pandemic stuff, icesong... Kiddo is having similar issues :(
 

icesong

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Oh I totally know it is. I mean, MiniMe is very much not the easiest child, but he’s... unhappier than I ever was as a kid and that’s saying an astonishing amount. About the only saving grace is that at least Knight and I (and Artist and Joan) take his feeling seriously, which is more than my parents were ever capable of.

At the same time, he’s still stir crazy and misses people his age he can be silly with, and I’m just not that person. 🤷🏻‍♀️So there’s only so much I can help and some of the things he says scare me and break my heart all at the same time. (And yet I still freak out at him too often when he’s loud and repetitive... ::sigh:: not good at this. )

But the pandemic... the worse the numbers get the more scared I am about Artist. Technically they’re far worse than they were back in the spring, but we haven’t talked anymore about any change in our schedule. I already told him I couldn’t do what we did before again, it’s just not something I’m capable of again. In reality, it would be worse now than the first time because the last six months have brought us so much closer.

I am still weird about the part where part of me almost wishes he did have to move in for a bit - leftover mono normative programming, I suppose , that says if you love someone THIS much you should want to merge lives. And I don’t want to weigh us down with mundanity like that, but I do want to feel like I do with him far more of the time... so what does that even mean when you put it all together?

And what would living together even look like, especially in relationship to MiniMe, who loves Artist but is also kind of jealous of attention I pay to him. It almost feels Oedipal in a disturbing way, especially since there’s been at least one and possibly two more times that he’s snuck downstairs long after he was supposed to be asleep - like 11:30, 12:00pm - and overheard things he wasn’t supposed to. And no, I’m not ignoring him whenever Artist is around - if anything, I think the opposite just because the dynamic is different and MiniMe and I don’t butt heads as much then. Still, I’m kind of afraid of the overall effect of kid overhearing sex - yes it happens all the time for people’s parents, sure, but the poly thing feels like a different dimension to it 😬
 

Vicki82

Active member
I don't usually have sex when Kiddo is awake, but I won't say it hasn't happened :p I just lock the door and turn on music. We don't do any kind of BDSM when he's awake though. I don't want to worry about those kind of sounds. But he never leaves his room once he is in bed either so I haven't had to worry about that.

I couldn't do that kind of separation again, either. I would end the relationship first because it was too painful. Charles occasionally struggles with being here because he's still straddling that mental line between is this just pandemic or does he want to move in, and Kiddo's acting up is most of that problem. But he knows if he leaves I can't let him come back while covid cases are spiking and I just can't go through it. So I really appreciate that he's trying to learn to deal with that stress to be with me.

Kiddo has been pretty depressed with the isolation and he already had behaviour issues so he's been acting out. He has a tougher time handling his frustrations and I get that, I really do. But I keep reminding him we're all struggling and that we need to support each other and not make things tougher. Then it's kind of bouncing back and forth between him saying the really angry stuff and the really sad stuff. It's hard. But there isn't much we can do other than offer love and try to tough it out. One day this will be over and we can go back to our normal lives... it's the getting there that's so hard.

Hugs. Just wanted to offer some solidarity.
 

icesong

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Kiddo is a bit happier right now, mostly because I'm a very very indulgent parent and got him the PS5 he wanted for Christmas early. Yes, I managed to get one. Took, like, 24 hours of hovering over my computer racing scalper bots. Worth it though.

And I have an utterly ridiculous amount of freelance work right now - lovely but STRESSFUL and makes me a bit quiet on text because I do actually concentrate once in a while (Probably that surprises anyone who reads this)... Funny thing is that apparently, me being quiet results in extra attentive lover when he *does* get to see me. There is, ah, something to be said for a guy with the refractory time of a 16 year old AND the endurance of someone much older. Whew. 4x in 12 hours, with no particularly special occasion? I'd not believe it if someone else was talking about it. (Though does it count as 2x if you never quite quit making out between the 2x? I mean that really doesn't matter but it was a relevant question this morning.)
 
D

Deleted member 410660

Guest
Crazy jealous of you right now, icesong.

Though it might be a tossup between finding a PS5 and having 12 hours of high-performance sex and making out.

😝

Green with envy,
Anna Xx
 

icesong

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Staff member
PS... what was your strategy for finding the PS5?
So at midnight of launch day, I hit up a photo gear and electronics site that was supposed to be selling them, figuring that was gonna be a little more obscure. (It wasn’t. ) Also haunted GameStop, and Best Buy. None of those worked so I went to bed, but then got insomnia and got back up to try Target (they were releasing a batch at like 1:30am my time) Since I was up, I sat in the Sony direct queue, and started following Twitter for other leads. None of this was successful, but I found out Walmart was doing drops at 12,3,6,9 and 12 pm on launch day, so I haunted those. The 12, 3, 6 drops they were all gone in seconds, though I got to the point of getting one in my cart a few times. And then the 9pm one I was just barely fast enough.

anyway it looks like some of the dedicated Twitter people are still actively posting times, so I’d follow some of those to see when the drops are and literally be on the page ready to hit order at, for instance, 3:01:01 pm ...
 

PinkPig

Active member
So at midnight of launch day, I hit up a photo gear and electronics site that was supposed to be selling them, figuring that was gonna be a little more obscure. (It wasn’t. ) Also haunted GameStop, and Best Buy. None of those worked so I went to bed, but then got insomnia and got back up to try Target (they were releasing a batch at like 1:30am my time) Since I was up, I sat in the Sony direct queue, and started following Twitter for other leads. None of this was successful, but I found out Walmart was doing drops at 12,3,6,9 and 12 pm on launch day, so I haunted those. The 12, 3, 6 drops they were all gone in seconds, though I got to the point of getting one in my cart a few times. And then the 9pm one I was just barely fast enough.

anyway it looks like some of the dedicated Twitter people are still actively posting times, so I’d follow some of those to see when the drops are and literally be on the page ready to hit order at, for instance, 3:01:01 pm ...
My middle kid has been doing this but is so far, unsuccessful. Congrats on getting one!
 

icesong

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Staff member
Had an interesting conversation with Knight yesterday. Well, conversation isn’t exactly the right word, but it did lead to a bit of a communication breakthrough.

So unlike what usually happens, he was hitting on me yesterday morning - yay! Problem was I was just having a hard time getting into it - and the more I tried the more disconnected I got, to the point of eventually just calling a stop to the whole thing. But! In talking about it I realized two things:

#1. I’m being hypervigilant about whether or not Knight is into me, to the point it’s making me believe he’s not on very little evidence. That... doesn’t lead to particularly good sex if I can’t quit thinking about it, as I’m a person that needs to be out of my head in order to let go.

#2. One of the other reasons for our disconnect in bed is ... well, this is oversimplified. But basically it boiled down to us being in different and not quite compatible spots on the wheel of consent.

1606663758253.jpegI experience my strongest levels of sexuality in the “allow” quadrant, with a bit of serve. Knight was _also_ trying to be in the “serve” side of things, rather than the “take”, and it was making me uncomfortable in that I felt like I had to have certain reactions, etc. “Accept”, in fact, is probably the quadrant I’m least comfortable in as it’s the one where I feel least connected to my partner’s desire.

Once we talked about THAT, we started over a bit with previous activities but with him being a bit more “take” and things were much better. Not perfect of course - we also talked about how we’ve connected so little for the past few years, sexually, that we almost don’t know what makes each other tick that way anymore. But at least there’s a better starting place?
 

icesong

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From the context of your post or posts it sounded to me like you said you didn’t understand the mindset where you would “ want “ to love one person more than another ...ie hierarchy based poly. It seemed like you were trying to illustrate the difference in thinking in general terms of a poly person vs mono person thinking .

My thought or point is dumps those 2 labels ( mono / poly ) and looks at this from a purely human behavior side. If we remove all the outside factor / entanglement/ commitments / marriage contracts and go strictly off desire and chemistry and overall compatibility probably lots of polycues or tribes would be realigned In a nesting sense. Dont you think? I know of many that have done that just because ...and the because is never super specific but rather “ fell out of love “ . And if youre being a good hinge and or being a good participanting partner in a marriage how’s that happen ? BUT it does. Is it something to fear or place in a risk assessment matrix I don’t know. Is it something to consider ...yes I think so.
Dragging this off of @Arc's blog because if we're not careful @dingedheart and I may end up monopolizing it and I don't want that (though I don't mind debate here, if @dingedheart or anyone else wants to chime back in).

So yeah. I can definitely understand *being* in a relationship that looks, from the outside, like hierarchical poly - more life entanglement with one partner, nesting, kids, finances, whatever. I live that! And there are may people who would say that there is an intrinsic hierarchy no matter how much I might want there not to be. I can understand why they would think that.

And, too, I can understand having feelings that are, in fact, stronger for one partner than another, as a description of your personal truth right now. I'm not going to pretend that if I met someone (in nonPlagueWorld) tomorrow and we started dating, no matter how instantly in NRE I felt, that those feelings or relationship is stronger or "more" than the relationships I have with my current partners. Potential? sure. But not more, nor even equal yet.

But the part I *don't* understand, cannot understand right now, is the desire to ensure that hierarchy remains the same, if people would in fact be happier elsewhere. I don't think it's possible to predict one's life to that degree, for one, so I don't entirely understand *fearing* change because I assume it will happen. Five years ago I would never have predicted Joan would ever live with us (or anyone would, though the idea got tossed around a bit with HipsterBoy as a long term plan). Ten years ago I would have never predicted that I'd love someone who wasn't Knight as intensely as I do - I honestly didn't feel myself capable of it. (So yeah, my flirtations and liaisons at that point were very much in the hierarchical vein back then).

So it is *possible* that I may fall in love more deeply with Artist than Knight, though I do not believe that will happen. It is even *possible* that I may wish to live with him (although I think it is far more likely that I would want to live on my own and just date, if ever I do not live with Knight). But I can't say I *want* that to happen OR not to happen - I want to live my life as it comes to me, as I feel it at the time, not as my past self thought I should.

I'm more than a bit of a relationship anarchist. As I mentioned on Arc's blog, I love my partners equally but I'm *pretty* sure I'm more compatible in a nesting sense with Knight. I think that would still be true even if we decided that our romance had come to an end - we're still best friends, still good life partners, and there's no reason that life partner and romance partner absolutely need to be the same person. Maybe for some people that rearrangement would happen, in the absence of practical concerns - but isn't more happiness for more people a good thing? (Probably there would be a few people unhappy, the world is not so perfect as to make everyone end up with the perfect partner(s) for them, but still.)

I know outside of what I may choose, if Knight ever decides that he would be happier without me.... well. There are a lot of practical entanglements to dissolve, but as for general romance? ee cummings said it far better than I (although as with much love poetry it doesn't entirely work in a poly context):

it may not always be so; and i say
that if your lips,which i have loved,should touch
another’s,and your dear strong fingers clutch
his heart,as mine in time not far away;
if on another’s face your sweet hair lay
in such silence as i know,or such
great writhing words as,uttering overmuch,
stand helplessly before the spirit at bay;

if this should be,i say if this should be—
you of my heart,send me a little word;
that i may go unto him,and take his hands,
saying,Accept all happiness from me.
Then shall i turn my face,and hear one bird
sing terribly afar in the lost lands
 

dingedheart

Well-known member
Dragging this off of @Arc's blog because if we're not careful @dingedheart and I may end up monopolizing it and I don't want that (though I don't mind debate here, if @dingedheart or anyone else wants to chime back in).
yes I’ve been known to grab onto a tangent 🥴. But I don’t think there is much of a debate here. It looks to me about degrees and semantic.
So yeah. I can definitely understand *being* in a relationship that looks, from the outside, like hierarchical poly - more life entanglement with one partner, nesting, kids, finances, whatever. I live that! And there are may people who would say that there is an intrinsic hierarchy no matter how much I might want there not to be. I can understand why they would think that.
and how much poly mileage do you have under your belt ?? And was this dynamic ( poly / open /enm) set up prior to marriage or do you and your husband convert yrs in. AND who was the driving force on that.
And, too, I can understand having feelings that are, in fact, stronger for one partner than another, as a description of your personal truth right now. I'm not going to pretend that if I met someone (in nonPlagueWorld) tomorrow and we started dating, no matter how instantly in NRE I felt, that those feelings or relationship is stronger or "more" than the relationships I have with my current partners. Potential? sure. But not more, nor even equal yet.
Do you think that this opinion might have to do with yrs of experience ? From what Arc as posted in various threads it seems pretty clear he’s been knocked for a really big loop and is trying desperately to get his feet back underneath him. None of the dozens/ ( ?) unknown quantity of relationship configurations have ever crossed his mind before. The old path was straight and clear in his head and provided stability and comfort. I think age and stage of life in all this play a huge factor. It doesn’t seem odd that he has lots of fears how each input is going to change his marriage.
Particularly if he’s wired against change.

But the part I *don't* understand, cannot understand right now, is the desire to ensure that hierarchy remains the same, if people would in fact be happier elsewhere. I don't think it's possible to predict one's life to that degree, for one, so I don't entirely understand *fearing* change because I assume it will happen. Five years ago I would never have predicted Joan would ever live with us (or anyone would, though the idea got tossed around a bit with HipsterBoy as a long term plan). Ten years ago I would have never predicted that I'd love someone who wasn't Knight as intensely as I do - I honestly didn't feel myself capable of it. (So yeah, my flirtations and liaisons at that point were very much in the hierarchical vein back then).
So 10 yrs ago you wouldn’t have predicted you’d love someone as intensely as Knight. Couldn’t that be a function of your limited foresight ? Arc can see or imagine himself finding someone more the Checks more boxes or can image her going crazy during NRE and neglecting him and the family thus making it easy to find someone more attractive and thus starts the death spiral.
So it is *possible* that I may fall in love more deeply with Artist than Knight, though I do not believe that will happen. It is even *possible* that I may wish to live with him (although I think it is far more likely that I would want to live on my own and just date, if ever I do not live with Knight). But I can't say I *want* that to happen OR not to happen - I want to live my life as it comes to me, as I feel it at the time, not as my past self thought I should.
again is this your yrs of experience and specifically the 2 guys you are partnered with? And entanglements?

I know outside of what I may choose, if Knight ever decides that he would be happier without me.... well. There are a lot of practical entanglements to dissolve, but as for general romance? ee cummings said it far better than I (although as with much love poetry it doesn't entirely work in a poly context):
and would he ever express a similar feeling ? Or a fear such as Arcs ? like did he ever feel he was falling too hard for Joan etc ? I haven’t specifically asked any poly couples if this was ever a concern but it doesn’t seem like it would be a one off situation with a guy who was just poly bombed.
 

icesong

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Particularly if he’s wired against change.
Really I think this may be the biggest differentiating factor here. I mean, the blog title tells you that, right? I'm very much a person who thinks you can either be the oak or be the willow, the wind is gonna blow either way and *I* don't want to be the tree that falls over. And I think that that's going to happen whether or not you *try* and create a stable life, though I think a lot of people try and build extra stability to counter that. Aesop's ants and grasshoppers, I guess - I am definitely the latter.

and how much poly mileage do you have under your belt ?? And was this dynamic ( poly / open /enm) set up prior to marriage or do you and your husband convert yrs in. AND who was the driving force on that.
I'm not sure whether you're just being rhetorical to point out my perspective, but in case you aren't...I mean I've told this story here a lot, but the base version is: met/started dating at 16, married at 23, at *some* point before we got married but after we were living together, so I'm gonna guess 20-21 or so, we had the conversation of "Love you but also don't really want to never ever ever explore sex with other people". I *probably* started that conversation as I was realizing I was bi, but it was very much a "oooh, this could be fun" rather than a "poly bomb" sort of discussion. Stayed in a swingers/casual FWB dynamic (or in one case close friends with casual benefits, LOL) through our 20's, took a couple year break to have MiniMe (we weren't in any serious entanglements at the time) then decided to experiment with dating as separate people when we were... 32, I suppose? Anyway there were a couple fairly crappy years in there, as detailed in the early stages of the blog, and we've had our ups and downs, though really I think we're very much in an "up" right now.

None of the dozens/ ( ?) unknown quantity of relationship configurations have ever crossed his mind before. The old path was straight and clear in his head and provided stability and comfort. I think age and stage of life in all this play a huge factor.
I mean, I'm not telling Arc what he *should* feel, I just am trying to show that... there are other ways TO feel about everything going on. And the other huge difference here is that not only was my slide into Relationship Autonomy Level 4 fairly slow, as described above but I have had a concept of multiple-partner relationships since my early teens - I joke often that I was warped by early exposure to Heinlein but I suppose in some ways it's not entirely a joke.
Couldn’t that be a function of your limited foresight ? Arc can see or imagine himself finding someone more the Checks more boxes or can image her going crazy during NRE and neglecting him and the family thus making it easy to find someone more attractive and thus starts the death spiral.
I mean everyone has limited foresight, that's my point. But if you can imagine the bad outcomes you can also imagine good ones.
again is this your yrs of experience and specifically the 2 guys you are partnered with? And entanglements?
and would {Knight} ever express a similar feeling ? Or a fear such as Arcs ? like did he ever feel he was falling too hard for Joan etc ? I haven’t specifically asked any poly couples if this was ever a concern but it doesn’t seem like it would be a one off situation with a guy who was just poly bombed.
I mean the only perspective I can give is the one I have now after years of experience, and from my current set of life entanglements. Everything else is a road untraveled.

The "our relationship could morph in the future" feelings? I'm summarizing and paraphrasing actual conversations I've had with Knight - he probably wouldn't quote e.e. cummings at me; I'm the only person in this set of relationships that is a bit too fond of freeform poetry. But the overall sentiment of "we should be life partners forever no matter what happens romantically sexually, but if that changes we will let each other go with as much good will and least drama possible?" That is definitely shared.

As for the "am I falling too hard/fast" fears... those all got worked out during the HipsterBoy/Pink!Girl debacle. So yes, I'm not saying those fears don't exist ever. I think mine were more based on "is this betrayal" than "I don't want to do this", though, if the difference between those makes sense.
 

dingedheart

Well-known member
Really I think this may be the biggest differentiating factor here. I mean, the blog title tells you that, right?
It could. Or it could have been his attempt to be semi humorous and quick to fill in the required fields to get started.

I'm very much a person who thinks you can either be the oak or be the willow, the wind is gonna blow either way and *I* don't want to be the tree that falls over. And I think that that's going to happen whether or not you *try* and create a stable life, though I think a lot of people try and build extra stability to counter that. Aesop's ants and grasshoppers, I guess - I am definitely the latter.
aside from the title of his blog it seems he’s trying more seriously than his wife to find a solution to their marital dynamic / situation disconnect than she is.

Im Not willing to speculate on which factors would be the biggest but I think we all see and handle all the different elements with in our lives differently. People with very structured and regimented professional careers might enjoy some variety/ drama / unpredictability leaning towards chaos in their personal lives. ON the other hand someone in a high stress, chaos driven work environment/ career might really enjoy his or her personal live to be relatively low stress, stable, certain. Also I think stage of live could play into this here too.

I'm not sure whether you're just being rhetorical to point out my perspective, but in case you aren't...I mean I've told this story here a lot, but the base version is: met/started dating at 16, married at 23, at *some* point before we got married but after we were living together, so I'm gonna guess 20-21 or so, we had the conversation of "Love you but also don't really want to never ever ever explore sex with other people". I *probably* started that conversation as I was realizing I was bi, but it was very much a "oooh, this could be fun" rather than a "poly bomb" sort of discussion. Stayed in a swingers/casual FWB dynamic (or in one case close friends with casual benefits, LOL) through our 20's, took a couple year break to have MiniMe (we weren't in any serious entanglements at the time) then decided to experiment with dating as separate people when we were... 32, I suppose? Anyway there were a couple fairly crappy years in there, as detailed in the early stages of the blog, and we've had our ups and downs, though really I think we're very much in an "up" right now.
I asked because I thought 1) it would be better than assuming my memory of your back story was correct ...and 2) it would provide a contextual picture of how and why there differences on how the situation is being viewed.

Thank you for re-summarizing your story and I think there are some huge glaring differences that might want to be considered. One you more or less grew up together / into the marriage ...and prior to marriage open was already being discussed. I’d say that would wildly different from people dating various people through school and beyond and finding “ the one “ in their mid to late 20s marry with the notion of being mono...live that illusion for 10-12 yrs...have a couple of kids along the way and then be informed that’s NOT who we are. All the learning and adapting he did or they did as a couple IMO is very similar to what you guys did but from a different angle. Dont you think ?

I mean, I'm not telling Arc what he *should* feel, I just am trying to show that... there are other ways TO feel about everything going on. And the other huge difference here is that not only was my slide into Relationship Autonomy Level 4 fairly slow, as described above but I have had a concept of multiple-partner relationships since my early teens - I joke often that I was warped by early exposure to Heinlein but I suppose in some ways it's not entirely a joke.
YES. And I’m sure he appreciates the input and prospective. It really appears he’s open to hearing all view points.
So with the acknowledgment your slide to relationship autonomy being fairly slow what’s the hope for him. More specifically how should he weigh the thoughts or beliefs on the boundaries or input drivers that would give him comfort sorting out the “ new” marriage Moving Foward ? This conversation is centered on his idea that he fears falling “ more “ in love with a new gf..which then translates in to wanting of role swap. And let’s just stipulation from the hypothetical side that this would happened or this was acknowledged after the NRE phase so as a clear headed assessment was made.

I think from you willow example and other things you said is he needs to abandon the concept of protecting the marriage ....if it survives great. At the very least it’s going to change significantly.


I mean everyone has limited foresight, that's my point. But if you can imagine the bad outcomes you can also imagine good ones.
I would agree with that in a limited way IF they had arrived on this path mutually. However the landscape is heavily tilled toward women and females. For his his wife ( aside for the fact she already has a fish on the line ) IT TAKES NO SKILL to date ( specifically men not sure about bi and lesbian women I’ll let them speak for themselves). Throw the profile up and it’s a parade of dicks in minutes. For her the biggest problem is weeding out the creeps and serial killers. AND because of these lopsided numbers if he does want to compete in this sport he’s got to thick skin and sharpen his dating skills. If he decided he doesn’t want to compete and just remain mono to her he’s suppose to imagine good outcomes from the transfer of time, energy, attention, money to a new partner.
Trust me deciding to stay mono has very very or NO real “ good “/ beneficial outcome to the mono spouse other than keeping the status quo intact.
I mean the only perspective I can give is the one I have now after years of experience, and from my current set of life entanglements. Everything else is a road untraveled.
again ....I think that’s really helpful 😝👍
The "our relationship could morph in the future" feelings? I'm summarizing and paraphrasing actual conversations I've had with Knight - he probably wouldn't quote e.e. cummings at me; I'm the only person in this set of relationships that is a bit too fond of freeform poetry. But the overall sentiment of "we should be life partners forever no matter what happens romantically sexually, but if that changes we will let each other go with as much good will and least drama possible?" That is definitely shared.
This is sort of interesting in that the basic sentiment is the same at least form Arc’s point of view ..except for the disclaimer of if that changes honor our best intentions and part clean. AND this too has probably grown over yrs and NOT stated back when you were 22 right ?


As for the "am I falling too hard/fast" fears... those all got worked out during the HipsterBoy/Pink!Girl debacle. So yes, I'm not saying those fears don't exist ever. I think mine were more based on "is this betrayal" than "I don't want to do this", though, if the difference between those makes sense.
so one fear is OK and another is unground and stupid ??
 

icesong

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It could. Or it could have been his attempt to be semi humorous and quick to fill in the required fields to get started.
Err, I meant the title of _my_ blog. “Change in all the area of my life...”
he needs to abandon the concept of protecting the marriage ....if it survives great. At the very least it’s going to change significantly.
I mean actually, yeah, I would agree with that. More in the “if you love it let it go, if it comes back it’s forever” sort of sense than I think what you meant?
For his his wife ( aside for the fact she already has a fish on the line ) IT TAKES NO SKILL to date ( specifically men not sure about bi and lesbian women I’ll let them speak for themselves). Throw the profile up and it’s a parade of dicks in minutes. For her the biggest problem is weeding out the creeps and serial killers
If you consider successful dating to be “go out on first dates or for casual hookups”, that may be true. Actual relationships? I’d argue equally difficult on both sides, it’s just the difficulty is less obvious. But then I don’t consider a parade of dicks to be necessarily desirable, despite what the dudes sending me messages on FetLife seem to think. (It’s not even a dating site! My profile pic is literally my collar!
AND this too has probably grown over yrs and NOT stated back when you were 22 right ?
true, this was something that came up more at 33-34.
So one fear is OK and another is unground and stupid ??
Not what I’m saying at all. I never said stupid, don’t put words in my mouth - I said I didn’t understand the fear. Not the same thing. I mean, I don’t necessarily ask other people to understand my phobias, just occasionally to accommodate them (I’m an emetophobe, which is mostly only a problem with movies or drunk people.)

Like, one thing I like to do with my own fears is say “ok, if _x_ happens, what happens next? Is _y_ guaranteed to happen? Why do I think that? If _y_ does or doesn’t happen what is _z_? And so forth ” Do that enough and you eventually find a way to defang most fears... or if you don’t, you acknowledge that it may be an irrational phobia and live your life from there, though I at least try to minimize the irrational ones.

I _get_ being afraid of things - I mean, even with two very stable relationships, I still have to talk myself out of feeling abandoned on a ridiculously regular basis. Like... the other day, I was planning to see Artist in the evening and sent him a fairly sexy text message. He responded enthusiastically, but kind of briefly and because of that I spent half the day worrying there was something wrong and that somehow I was going to have something bad happen that night. {narrator voice} the night was in fact lovely, Artist had just been too busy for extended flirtation. {end narrator voice} But not putting that fear on him to deal with was something I’ve had to practice, a lot.
 
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