Dave's Story

Time for vacation. First stop, seeing S on Sunday. She's thinking pretty seriously about being exclusive, so made it clear the benefits have been revoked. That doesn't really change much for us anyway.

Then a week later, my date with T. I'm getting lots of mixed messages from her now. Who knows what will happen? I walk a really fine line (which I shared with her last night) that I want her to know how desirable I find her, while not adding any pressure. It's her decision at this point. We'll see each other, of course. Hang out and chat. Beyond that, who knows? I'm very excited, though.
 
Back home after the trip. In almost every way it surpassed my expectations. Longer post tomorrow.

I love both these women in my life. They have made me a very happy man.
 
Okay, now I have some time.

I really don't think it could have gone much better. Wife was comfortable. She did take a low dose Valium just in case (left over from pre-LASIK surgery), but being with T has not seemed to impact either our emotional or sexual relationship. I didn't expect it would, or I wouldn't have pressed on, but what we think is going to happen and what actually happens isn't always the same.

T was wonderful. Due to some messed-up traffic, I let her know I was going to be 30 minutes late. Turned out I was able to make up time and she was ready for me anyway. When I got there, I was a little nervous. Keep in mind, I haven't so much as kissed a woman other than my wife in 20 years.

We hugged and had a few little kisses. She showed me around her place. Her cats didn't run from me, which highly impressed her. They are normally fearful, but I have a way with animals.

We had previously decided to go for a drink and snacks. That turned out to be a very good idea. I'm not sure if the nervousness was due to being with her the first time, or low blood sugar. I felt much better after having some food. It almost got derailed though, as before we left, I got thoroughly kissed. We stopped, or we wouldn't have made it to dinner.

The restaurant was within walking distance. I really wasn't sure where the night was going or how much physical contact with which she'd be comfortable, so we didn't hold hands on the way there. By the time the meal was done, I'm not sure I let her go for more than a few seconds.

There isn't much to talk about, but we haven't had much of an opportunity to discuss the night. She's been incredibly busy and stressed with work. I've been on vacation with little privacy. We had planned another meeting for towards the end of the year. We confirmed those plans, so I must have done something right. ;)
 
I am happy that your trip went wonderfully well. I love happy news! I hope things continue going well! :D

Ry
 
There aren't too many of my friends who know that I have a girlfriend. Of those, only two asked me for details of the meeting. S was one and the other was a friend from a message board. Those are completely unsurprising, but it made me smile nonetheless. On the downside, both my current best friend and my brother and his wife want nothing to do with the situation. They pretend like T doesn't exist. That's really aggravating because I've been super supportive of them over the years. And that's included some stuff I would have been outraged over 20 years ago. Now I find it a little self destructive, but if that's the path they choose, so be it.

K didn't want to know details, though, I've noticed when T and I have scheduled some time, she's much more likely to ask if we had a good time. K also inquires on how T is doing, especially when she's had something important going on in a relationship or work. That makes me feel good.

Yesterday was the first time T and I have gotten to have an extended conversation since our live meeting. We talked in the afternoon and she asked if she could spend some time with me in the evening too. I planned on going to bed early, but I hardly ever turn down time with T, so I was happy to see her. I especially wanted to make sure moving our relationship real world (especially the sex part) hadn't affected our relationship. I was kind of surprised we hadn't talked about it at all.

She called me a girl. That made me laugh. I have a lot of "girl" tendencies in relationships. I want to talk. I ask, "What are you thinking?" I don't like sitting in silence that much. I'm romantic.

My wife and I are reversed in that way too. I get mad when the house is dirty. I need the affection and attention. I cry at movies. etc.

But anyway, T just said she doesn't feel the need to talk about good experiences, but she was willing if I wanted. I didn't need to talk about it; I just wanted to make sure it didn't add complication.

Something else humorous. While on the trip, there was a couple doing brewery tours at the same time I was, and we got to talking. They mentioned they went to [random California city]. My first thought was, "Hey! My girlfriend's boyfriend has a house there!" I didn't say it at the time, but I did text T and K about it.
 
Almost a month since I posted last. Everything is pretty much the same for now.

T is going through a really tough time personally. It could put our November plans on hiatus, but it's entirely justified. I wish I could do more to help her, but there's nothing I can do but offer support and be a friend. I enjoy that part of our relationship, but it makes me worry how I'll feel in a few months if she's always physically and emotionally exhausted when we talk. However, we had a really nice time on a cam chat last night, so I may be anticipating something that won't happen. It wouldn't be the first time.

K is doing well. She is going back to school. Our daughter starts kindergarten, so K wants to go back to work. However, we figured it would make more sense for her to finish her degree first.

Other than that, no news is good news. K and I are taking a vacation in a couple weeks. Kids are staying behind with Grandma. We'll get to put that SCUBA certification to use.
 
I can feel it happening. We have had very little playtime the last 6 weeks, and it's turning much more into a long-distance relationship. One solution may be to talk on the phone more. For whatever reason, we haven't done a lot of that. It's always either cam or text. I know when T feels stressed, she doesn't feel sexy, and doesn't want to be looked at. But we'll see. I'm not sure that's much of a help really. It's the playtime that makes it more than just a friendship.

I don't love her any less, but I can see it becoming a bit of a death spiral. I love to see her face light up when she sees me, but I don't get to see her, so I'm less inclined to do something romantic.

I feel guilty, though. I can't even imagine the stress she's going through, and it's on multiple fronts. It's a wonder she has any emotional time left for me at all. She's always so appreciative of all my affection. That is a lot of what I need, but it's not everything. I feel I have to look elsewhere, meaning I can't give her as much affection, right as she needs it most.

These are just thoughts. Nothing is changing soon. I value all of my time with her. It's just the downtime. Should I pursue another relationship, or should I write her a love note?
 
Hi Dave,

I've been rooting for you on your journey and thought I'd check your blog to see how you were doing. And then you posted today! Thanks for the update, though sorry it's not same ol' no news is good news. :(

T seems to have always been a very independent spirit which I would imagine is why you're attracted to her. Sorry to hear it may be "fading away. Or it may well just be a phase; her focus is needed elsewhere, so attentions are less on you.

Not everyone may agree, but in this case I'm going with the "put your mask on before your loved one's" thinking: do what's best for you then for T. If you are healthy, happy, strong you have more love/attention to give to others. T doesn't need as much from you now so give her a love note, send her some encouragement, talk on the phone, whatever AND pursue a relationship that will fulfill more of the attention you prefer.

It's not wrong or unfair to T to pursue another relationship, even if she's going through a rough time. If/when she needs more than a reminder you love her, then she seems plenty confident enough to let you know, and/or keep asking her what she wants, what works for her now. She's also had multiple people vying for her attention, and you've both dealt with that, setting relationship parameters and asking for what you want. You like/crave attention, seems T has always been very independent and doesn't associate love & attention the same way you do, so getting attention elsewhere is win/win. 'Tis part of the beauty of poly.

Also, give my best to K! She sounds so remarkable and generous and truly coming from love. I think there'd be a lot more harmonious marriages out there if people could be more like her. :) And kudos to you getting through the SCUBA thing. I would've suggested you find something else you two can enjoy together and let her do the SCUBA on her own or with another friend. That's brave, intense; AWESOME, Dude!
 
I am rooting for you, and I hope it works out with T.
 
Thanks for the feedback, you guys.

T got the news we were hoping against. Her bf (8 years+) has metastasized cancer. It's already in three places. This is in addition to other real-life stuff going on.

We hung out a little last night, and I'm pretty sure it will be fine. She's very understanding, and even with the above going on, she apologized for interrupting when she called. Her bf's life is in danger, and she's worried about pulling me out of a different conversation. So, she will be understanding if I feel I need to pursue other relationships. That's still not a given, but I do feel less guilty about it. I often need to remind myself, she's a strong independent woman. It will bother her more if I try to hang around her like a lap dog.

I also talked to K, made sure I wasn't neglecting her and made it clear that she's under no moral (or any other) obligation to suppress her needs/desires on account of T's issues. She said she was fine, but she looked visibly relieved when I said it. Of course, getting her to vocalize her needs is a different story.

We're going on a 10-day vacation without the kids next week, so we should be good for a while, regardless. :)
 
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!

So, we get to introduce a new player and NRE to our happy group. I think I'm also going to change to a nickname situation, so T will be Susan, K will be Kay. Our new player will be Daley.

Daley and Susan started getting very friendly online about a year ago. Then there was trauma. Daley was in a fairly severe car accident. As they were getting back to normal, a 3rd party caused some grief between them. They were resolving that, and Daley's wife passed away. This has all happened in a year. Daley is also the jealous type. He has always had issues with Susan's poly nature. For whatever reason, Susan would rather protect his feelings/keep his interest than telling him to deal with it or go scratch.

Rewind to Friday. Susan and I are in a public chat room, and for the first time I can remember, she publicly announces that she's running off to private with me... just as Daley enters the room. Nice timing. Of course, he throws a temper tantrum and rage quits. (Some exaggeration involved, both because I'm bothered, and for dramatic story purposes.) Susan and I talk, and I suggest she go talk to him, because she's just going to be a mess if she doesn't. So Friday, it's Daley 1, Dave 0.

I don't talk to her Saturday until very, very late, when we exchange texts. It's very odd when we don't spend a few hours talking. What's going through my primitive lizard brain is that she's talking to Daley on Yahoo, instead of being on our group chat. I have no way to be sure, and it's none of my business anyway.

Sunday. Our normal time together comes and goes. No sign of her. I give her a "good night" text, and get a reply. I explain if she's around I'd come talk, but otherwise it was time to sleep. I get a reply, "I just logged on and Daley invited me." Daley 2, Dave 0.

Susan swears that it's doesn't change anything, but it does. At least for now. She is at least self aware to know if the situations were reversed she'd be a mess. But that feeds into it. She's always going to be able, when picking whom to spend time with, that Dave will understand, while Daley's going to act petulant.

I can only hope she gets tired of it and this is just NRE related.
 
Hi. I just finished reading your blog from start to finish. (I'm new here as of earlier this month.) I'm rooting for you.

I am sorry you're having to keep a "score card" now, with Susan and her new relationship. Don't get me wrong, this is just my opinion, but if you are feeling you need to keep score of the time she spends online with you and her new boyfriend, then something just doesn't sit right with me. I didn't know love was a competition, but your writing shows that it is for you. I have no experience myself with NRE, but it sounds like that is what Susan is experiencing with Daley.

During this time that she's with her new guy (online) maybe spend some time with your wife, kids (but with the 1500m distance you must be up later) or just find a new chat room to make new online friends.

Keeping a score card is a way to keep track of your jealousy, and at some point, I worry, you may confront her about Daley has 10 and Dave has 0. From how you've described Susan, this won't bode too well for her, and she might pull away from you. Also, you could just let her know that you're feeling jealous. You understand the NRE with Daley, but for your need to have time with her, if she could give it to you first, X times a week would be great.

Good luck. I look forward to reading more of your blog.
 
Smiling. It's funny how perception is different. It's one of the reasons I enjoy writing. Someone will pick up on a nuance and I'll have to re-evaluate if that's what I really mean, or if it was unintentional meaning.

There isn't really a score card. It was just some literary license. It was just done to highlight the change. There is a thread in the relationship advice forum, which said it's not so much about how much time you spend with someone, but whether or not it gets reduced. Susan and I spend so much time together that it's a big shock to my system when it's interrupted by a new party.

By yesterday afternoon the whole thing seemed silly, but it's one of my insecurities. So I wrote it up because it makes me feel better. I think this is my first breakdown since December.

Re: "spend time with your wife," don't I wish? But that's a whole other issue. We are about to take a 10-day vacation though, so good times ahead there. Good observation on the kids. They are normally asleep before I see Susan.
 
Back from vacation with some new drama.

The Daley stuff never materialized. He went back to ignoring her, for whatever his reasons are. I never understood why she puts up with it, or why he does what he does. But whatever. I'm through caring it about it one way or the other. I reached my breaking point with that post 3 weeks ago.

Our vacation was fantastic. I had a great time with Kay. I enjoyed meeting the people I've conversed with on Facebook/message boards. Scuba-diving was amazing. Without the kids, Kay had plenty of mental energy for both me and being social. She really opened up and had a good time. I enjoyed watching it.

Those 10 days were hard on Susan, though. We missed each other, and were able to talk to her a few times, but our normal 4 hours a day were reduced to a few minutes.

We got back, and things were good until Friday.

Here's how the weekend went:
Friday: Saw Susan online for a couple hours. Sent two messages. Neither returned.
Saturday early: sexted (hot).
Saturday afternoon: I was online again. I invited S. She declined, saying, give her a few minutes. 45 minutes later I said I had to run errands. She apologized for time getting away from her.
Saturday later: briefly talked on phone.
Saturday night: I saw her online. She was busy. I could see she was in a room and with whom. I didn't invite her, and she didn't come find me. I went back to bed. (I hadn't been feeling well since noon.)
Just past midnight: She texts "Are you awake?" but didn't want anything at all.
4am: She sends a message, "I'm sorry I'm not who you want me to be."

I'm flabbergasted. I said I went to bed because I wasn't feeling well; it had nothing to do with her. I was a little hurt by being ignored, but no biggie. We can talk about it tomorrow, as it's 4am, and I'm not coherent.

I sent her an email in the morning which contained the following [paraphrased]:
I was a little hurt this weekend just from the lack of communication. I would like to know if you think you're going to be busy so I can make other plans. We tend to default to seeing each other. I don't begrudge you when we don't. If I'm missing you more than normal, I'll make a date with you.

She was "crushed." She said I wanted to control her, that I wanted her to report. I had a trusted, honest friend read the original, and didn't get any of that.

She's under a ton of stress. Wineguy's cancer is going to kill him. It's just a matter of when and how soon. We are 95% likely talking months, not years. In the meantime, she's having to take care of him, which is really hard for her to do in general, let alone sickness-related. Work isn't much better. She's putting in tons of hours, and it's the nature of the job, not just her workplace.

Susan does claim I'm putting her in a "Catch-22," that I want her to tell me when she's with someone, but then I get cold when she does. The first one is nuanced. I like her to tell me, because I like to know what's going on in her life. But I really only want to know when she's busy so I don't have to wait for her.

I don't know about being cold at all. I've been extremely supportive of Wineguy and Brigham. I've been supportive with Daley, though there have been times when I told her she was better off moving on. We did have that incident, but that was because Susan and I were hanging out and she left me to go hang out with him. I understood and encouraged, but I wasn't happy about it. I will tease her a little when a new guy comes around, because it tweaks my insecurity, but I wouldn't categorize it as "cold." It's about perspective, though. I'll have to be better.

She said we'll get through it, and I tend to agree. I don't feel any differently, but I'm caught between giving her space and needing to reach out. She says she wants me not to wait on her, but I have such a hard time reconciling that with her having anxiety when I'm gone.

I guess I just have to trust. I'll give her space. She already reached out to me today, but it was weird. She said she was feeling better about us, but pushed me away when I asked if I should talk to her tonight.

I get the feeling she needs an escape right now, and I'm too much like real life.
 
I really don't know where Susan and I are at.

Monday we met up on g-chat and had a really hot time and a nice talk. I had mailed her a love letter on Friday and she went to sleep with the card.

Yesterday we chatted during the day, and made plans for me to visit for a few days. I know she wasn't placating me, as she both asked me to stay over "at least" one day, and mentioned there's a nice hotel really close to her house for the others. Then she ignored me for 4 hours when we were on our social chat, despite a couple messages from me. At 2am, we had the biggest fight we've ever had. On our social chat, we have profile pictures. For the last several months, mine has been a picture of the two of us. I'm going to take it down. I wanted to let her know and let her know why. One of my reasons is that it wouldn't be fair to any "women I might be seeing." She flipped out because I vaguely referenced other women. Not that I'm seeing them. She's ok with that, but she can't deal with knowing about it. I can try not letting her know, but I'm not sure it makes any difference. She's too curious. She's going to see me in public chat rooms with the same persons.

It feels like we are now broken up publicly. Privately, not, and we did part on ok terms last night. We both had trouble sleeping and she texted me early this morning. We both apologized again, and admitted we are scared. Our relationship is reverting to a year ago. Back when I had to pretend I wasn't in love with her.

I asked Susan to go to an evening with me on Friday. I want to hang out with our friends and see how it goes. I need to be able to be with her in public. If she can't do that anymore, it's just a matter of time before it's dead.

On the other hand, I'm not waiting around, either. I have meetings scheduled: tomorrow with Sassanach, and Thursday with Stakes. If I'm reverting to life pre-Susan, I'm jumping in whole hog. I don't half-ass things.

I'm really excited about Sassanach. I've wanted a deeper relationship with her for a year or more. I hadn't been able to devote to it because I was spending my time on Susan. Sass and I are very similar. Same tastes in music. Same books. Same life situation (married, in love LDR online, not limited). Same sexual outlook. I was so thrilled when she accepted my offer for a "date" tonight.
 
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evad said:
Then she ignored me for 4 hours when we were on our social chat, despite a couple messages from me.
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Seriously? This sounds like teenage-girl drama for the sake of drama. Sheesh. I don't always answer people right away either, because it distracts me from what I'm in the middle of. Neither will I ignore someone else that I'm currently chatting with just because someone else needs their ego stroked. I've also been know to leave FB open and walk away, do other things, etc. If it was that urgent, pick up the phone and make a voice call.

To me, this would be a screaming red flag that this is someone I need to back far away from. Why was this such a big deal?
 
SNeacail said:
This sounds like teenage-girl drama for the sake of drama. I don't always answer people right away either, because it distracts me from what I'm in the middle of, neither will I ignore someone else that I'm currently chatting with just because someone else needs their ego stroked. I've also been know to leave fb open and walk away, do other things, etc. If it was that urgent, pick up the phone an make a voice call. To me, this would be a screaming red flag that this is someone I need to back far away from. Why was this such a big deal?
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In the absolute base sense you are correct. We do go some time without responding to messages, via email, text, or IM.

However, this (meaning social chat) is so far out of the realm of normal. We have been doing this for damn near every day for two years. It has never happened. Add in all the other stuff and I'm scared.

It was not a big deal. It was a detail.

I totally get that it could be nothing. Well, that's not true. It's something. We haven't figured out what yet. But our relationship has changed.

I do need to make clear these are my thoughts. I made no actions. I didn't complain. I didn't say, mention, or imply that I didn't hear from her. I'm confused, and changes don't make me any less confused.

The fight was solely about me saying there could be other women in the future. She is adamant about a DADT. If I mention another woman (my wife excluded) she will not be able to deal with it and we are done.

I do appreciate your candor, though. A good slap in the face would do me good right about now.
 
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evad said:
A good slap in the face would do me good right about now.
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Really didn't mean it that way, it just seemed like an overreaction to online messaging responses. I see it far too often, that people read all sorts of hidden messages in what picture is posted or who they are talking to, etc. Believe me, it's easy to get sucked into the thinking, "OMG, they haven't responded to my messages in ___ hours". I do it too, but I realize it's a knee-jerk reaction, and I must be reasonable.

If she is already uncomfortable with you seeing new women, and you are removing pictures of her from your FB (or such), for the benefit of these other "possible" women, I can see where she would now feel like she's becoming your dirty little secret, and/or that she no longer matters, even if that's not the reality. She is obviously not comfortable with the situation and the path you want to go on.

Are you steaming ahead and expecting her to catch up, or have you been trying to slow down to her speed? Sorry, I didn't read your whole blog here.
 
SNeacail said:
... It just seemed like an overreaction to online messaging responses. ...People read all sorts of hidden messages in what picture is posted, or who they are talking to, etc. Believe me, it's easy to get sucked into, "OMG, she/he hasn't responded to my messages in ___ hours". I do it too, but I realize it's a knee-jerk reaction and I must be reasonable.

If she is already uncomfortable with you seeing new women, and you are removing pictures of her from your FB (or such), for the benefit of these other "possible" women, I can see where she would now feel like she's becoming your dirty little secret and/or that she no longer matters, even if that's not the reality. She is obviously not comfortable with the situation and the path you want to go on. Are you steaming ahead and expecting her to catch up, or have you been trying to slow down to her speed?
Click to expand...

No worries. I really do love candor, especially in a forum like this.

Just the opposite. She's steaming ahead. She's had three bfs, including me, for over a year, and one she's been hot and cold with, plus some FWBs. She has been encouraging me to do the same, except she doesn't want to have any hint that I'm doing it. I previously thought she didn't want any specifics, but she made clear, "women I might be seeing" will set her off.
 
Well, I think I have some clarity.

Sassanach had to cancel, but we rescheduled for Monday. Susan had invited me to join her with some of our mutual friends while I was waiting for Sass, so once I had that ironed out, I joined her.

Everything was good. We were flirting heavily. Some strong innuendo, some explicit. It was enough to get me physically excited. I asked if she wanted to leave with me. Before she could answer, Daley logged in (not in our room, just online) and another one of her suitors (for lack of a better word) joined us in the room. She was barely communicative after that. I told her I was ready to leave, and asked again if she wanted to join me. She said she was ready to leave, but was it ok if she didn't join me.

Ha. What can I say to that? If I tell her no, it's not ok, it's controlling. If I say yes, I can't complain about it later. I say "of course" as controlling is not something I'm going to do. She leaves so fast I can't even give her a hug goodbye.

But I get it now. She doesn't want to be my girlfriend publicly any more. Privately, I don't know. She doesn't want to give me up, but I'm going to have a bitch of a time going from seeing her every night, to seeing her once a week and hoping she's not going to run off if she sees someone better. There's definitely some NRE going on, but that doesn't make it any easier for me.

I do feel better this morning. Much less confused. I have a terrible time dealing with uncertainty.
 
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