Do new relationship affect old ones? or do old one affect new ones?-Couple Privilege

[kdt26417]

Re (from Murasaki):

"Yes you can view my questions this way. However if I remember right you are one arm of a V with a married?"

Precisely. I am the "unmarried fellow" in the equation; my two companions are legally wed.

Re:

"So consider the questions from that perspective. Do you live with them? Do you have shared monetary responsibilities? What expectation do you and your current partner(s) have with you?"

Well, let's just start by saying I have a *really* easy life. I'm essentially retired. My companions go to work and pay the bills. I think the only expectations they have of me is the sharing of companionship; that is, that I'll spend time in the evenings with them, share my thoughts and feelings, and watch some favorite TV shows with them. Did I mention that I have an easy life?

I do live with them. I had my own flat for a year or two awhile back, when the three of us were trying to get our "poly sea legs" with each other, but I can't even remember when's the last time I stayed at that separate flat. (We're currently in the process of selling it.)

I get a modest payment each month for disability and the like. (I've been diagnosed with bipolar and depression and a few other things.) Whatever funds I do bring in, automatically join the pool of whatever the two of them make. The three of us have a very much "shared finances" type of arrangement.

Might be worth mentioning that we're a "childless family." Both of the men (the arms of the V) are snipped. So this helps us all to not have nearly as many jobs/responsibilities as a family with kids.

Interesting question: If I started dating someone new and they wanted kids with me, what would I do? Heh, well to say the least, a family discussion would definitely ensue. To say nothing of the physical hurdles. Would I get my snipping reversed? More likely, I'd just have my sperm extracted and implanted in my new partner. But wow, we are venturing into the realms of extreme unlikelihood here.

I agree that a single (poly) person living without kids or other strings attached, would probably not be as strongly affected by a new relationship with, say, a married couple, than that couple would be. But I always want to hear the details of each situation before drawing conclusions about it.

If I were dating, I suppose I'd be really conservative about what I asked of my companions to facilitate that date. I'd mostly feel like I should date the new person without affecting my long-term existing companions. Ahem, I might actually be driven to get a paying job so I could pay for my own dates.

I think I relate to you in the sense that I'm really reluctant to ask for financial help, but not so reluctant to refuse if help is offered.

Re (from Murasaki):

"Actually you might consider the sharing of emails with your V as a form of couple privilege. (Or triad privilege? )."

Agreed. It is a type of couple/V privelage.

Re:

"It’s a decision made without the input of the new person, and from your wording it sounds like they may not get to negotiate for changing this requirement."

Yeah, ya got me. That's one aspect of the "new relationship" that I can't imagine being "re-negotiated" from the established V side. Hmmm. I guess all established dyads/trios or what have you have at least a handful of non-negotiables.

Is it self-defensive of me to say that this "rule" is mainly the idea of my "hinge lady," and that I mostly just agreed to it? On a deeper personal level, I'm probably capable of being a considerably more "liberal" person, a relationship anarchist or something along those lines. But I'm also easy enough to go along with "what the others want," as far as my established companions are concerned.

Re:

"Say I was willing to consider dating someone in your V. I’d be asking a lot of questions in an attempt to find out why this particular requirement is there, and if the ability to have a private chat online exists (sms, or IM/PM)."

FWIW, I think private chatting would be "allowed," however the content of such chat would also be "open game" for discussion at the dinner table and such.

You have to keep in mind that all three of us were raised to be conservative. So we we're all challenging our comfort zones by living as a three-person poly unit. Thus, we tend to have more "rules" than perhaps your average V or triad would have. Guess it's an outgrowth of conditioned insecurity.

 

[LovingRadiance]

We don't share each others emails per se.

But-I have access to both the guys emails and they have access to mine. It's not an often used access (in any direction). But-sometimes for financial email stuff or if one of us isn't at a computer and needs info from our email and another is at a computer we will get into each others emails.

That said-
Anything said to any one of us-is fair game conversationally over the dinner table.

We're very tight.

I should also note-that anything said to any one of us is fair game to be shared conversationally with my sister and best friend as well as Maca's dad (who we all four trust with our lives).

The nature of our family (not just household but extended family too) is very open.
I don't see that changing.

So people who are REALLY private people wouldn't likely be comfortable in our family dynamic.

 

[WhatHappened]

Yes, relationships affect one another.

In my case, I sometimes wonder if my relationship with BF affects his marriage more than his marriage affects our relationship.

I believe that in the beginning, there has to be some weight given to the established relationship. The problem I see is as a second relationship becomes longer lasting. How long do you expect that other person to be subordinate, the person who follows the rules set by others, the person who will likely not have the benefits of marriage, who will be expected to continue to care for themselves while the married couple has one another for mutual support.

For some, the living together works. It would never work for me, BF, his wife.

I would take exception to the e-mails. He had mentioned months ago that his wife has the passwords to all his accounts. I had been sending him personal e-mails totally unaware she had access to all of them.

Perhaps it's that no one bothered to tell me that I really take exception to, along with the double standard--I suspect she would object to me being shown her personal conversations with people. Sorry, but I'm not a toy. I'm a person, and I consider a modicum of privacy fundamental to the dignity and worth of being a person. I don't do one way streets, and I don't do double standards. Either she and I both get privacy in our personal communication, or we both have full access to each other's private conversations. That she and he have an open marriage does not entitle her to MY personal thoughts and feelings.

My solution was simple. I stopped sending e-mails. This wasn't a threat or ultimatum or anything like that. I just quit. He wanted to hear my thoughts, he wants those conversations, so he came up with a solution.

To me, this is fundamental, the ability to have personal conversations without them being shared with people who are not my personal friends, people with whom I did not choose to share my deepest thoughts and feelings.

 

[LovingRadiance]

How long do you expect that other person to be subordinate, the person who follows the rules set by others, the person who will likely not have the benefits of marriage, who will be expected to continue to care for themselves while the married couple has one another for mutual support.

I don't do one way streets, and I don't do double standards. Either she and I both get privacy in our personal communication, or we both have full access to each other's private conversations. That she and he have an open marriage does not entitle her to MY personal thoughts and feelings.


To me, this is fundamental, the ability to have personal conversations without them being shared with people who are not my personal friends, people with whom I did not choose to share my deepest thoughts and feelings.

This all makes perfect sense to me.

For the first one, I would only keep someone in that "outside" role as long as I would if they were a new relationship and I was single before starting it.
Which is somewhere around 6-12 months. It has little to do with my current partner, and everything to do with my family dynamic (which existed before I was married, because I already had a child).
When I dated before marriage-I had the same type of lifestyle, same level of openness and the same expectations for becoming a functional part of my life with my child-not just wanting "me". I am not available as an individual package.
So effectively-any new partner has to jump the same hoops that Maca had to jump. GG actually jumped those hoops BEFORE Maca did-which is confusing for some people, but true none-the-less.

Also-as noted, we've all called and asked one or another to access something from email on our behalf and the passwords are known. But we aren't digging around in each others emails randomly. So there is privacy. But-if one of them died, I'm the one designated to deal with their stuff-so I would be the one going through all of that. If I were psycho interested I could go digging-but really? I don't have that kind of time or interest in life.

It's also true that we completely share finances. We each have our own bank accounts but on every account, the other two are listed as signers. So if anything came up-any of us could access any of the accounts. But-all of the payroll checks are direct deposited to my account-because that is the account where the bills come from. Generally I handle divvy'ing the extra money out to the personal accounts on a weekly basis. I ensure all of the bills are covered and groceries and gasoline etc.

We did live apart a few different ways. GG lived in an apartment for a year after Sour Pea was born. Maca lived apart for 6 months on two different occasions and for a year the last time. All four of those times, things in my life continued to operate the same. The person who chose to live elsewhere spent more time away and often took kids for sleepovers. But I remained here and lived my life always inviting them for dinners and hangout times.
Shrug.

It's also clear for me. I could never date someone who wasn't going to be friendly with my so's. It doesn't matter how perfect a match. I'm not a "keep it separated" kind of person.
My closest friends are welcome to wander through at any time, no invitation needed.
Thinking communal living in a lot of ways.

It's been interesting reading the social psych textbook and doing the various tests. My personality and lifestyle preferences test made it clear I was an anomaly in the class (and according the professor in Western Culture altogether). I'm not "individualistic". I'm collectivistic. The way the book defines this is, identifying ones self by their role in a group usually extended family or work. There's *obviously* a lot more details.
But I found it VERY enlightening in consideration to the conversations here. Because everyone keeps saying I'm so unusual and different in my very integrated social attitudes.

 

[Inyourendo]

I have no interest in living with other partners. I'm friends with J but that's because she was living with my bff. My mil lives with her, we've worked together so it was kind of unavoidable. I don't have anything to do with N's other ladies and I prefer not to. I don't even like people in my home, my friends included. I usually go hang out or meet elsewhere. My home has always been open to those in need. We've taken in a couple people who would have otherwise been homeless but that was a temporary situation.

 

[kdt26417]

It has occurred to me to check and see if my prior posts would be tweaked at all by my particular situation, as you intimated, Murasaki.

I guess the biggest question here is, how would my established V (with its "V privelage") affect a dating situation with someone new (especially a single person) on the outside. It's worth noting that if the "new person" had kids, they might actually get the weight of the privelage, because in my V there are no kids.

Oh and for the record, I don't mind if the new person has a partner or partners of their own. We'd just all need time to get to know each other and figure out how we were going to structure our new poly network (if my relationship with that new person panned out). So there it's not so much "couple privelage," as it is "shared privelage" on both sides of the new-relationship equation.

Re: no sex outside our existing V ... I'm afraid that's a pretty solid rule and would not be negotiable. Once we all "joined together" (on the level of handfasting), then of course sex with the new people would be okay.

Also non-negotiable, I'm pretty sure, is the idea that everyone (all new partners and their partners) would need to get along well together before we could consider forming a "joint network." Guess we're exercising "V privelage" again in that sense. We feel strongly about it. We're not a "loosely-connected clan" type of family.

In case it's not yet obvious, I'm unmarried while my two poly companions are married, yet they have no "couple privelage" over me, yet the three of us are poised to exercise "V privelage" over any new people we should happen to date.

In all of this, it's important to emphasize how, to the three of us, we really need to get to know a new person (and their companions) well, before we start forming any kind of intimate (e.g. sexual) bonds with them. We are very sensitive about trust. As the lady of our V (the hinge) would put it, "Trust has to be earned."

Now, in a generic married-couple-dating-a-single-person scenario, it is simple and easy to say that the married couple probably gets *some* couple privelage (especially if the said couple has kids and the single person doesn't), but it is more complicated to ask what rights a V has to privelage, especially if the new person they're dating has in turn partners (and kids?) of their own. Sometimes I think you have to "forget about privelage" and just sit down to talk as adults and negotiate who has the most needs in which areas.

Having said that, I'll re-iterate that Polyamory.com gets quite an influx of "archtypical unicorn hunters." Typically this means a financially established couple dating a not-so-financially-established single lady. The single lady depends on the couple for her room and keep, so she kind of ends up feeling like she is beholden to their rules. If someone in a V is dating someone new, that can throw a monkey wrench into the "unicorn hunters" stereotype.

Coming out, by the way, is a huge subject even before you add any new partners. My V is 99% closeted; just a few very select friends/family know about our poly status. So I guess anyone new that we dated would probably have to "help us out" with keeping the whole poly milieu under wraps. We are of course out to poly forums and the poly social group to which we belong, but that's as far as the information would be allowed to spread. Yet another "V privelage" rule we probably wouldn't re-negotiate.

Consistent with my prior posts is the idea that you really have to judge each situation on a case-by-case basis. Stereotypically speaking, a single/childless "hot bi babe" certainly deserves a say in the rules/procedures and the "established couple" doesn't get to dictate everything even if they have kids. But not everyone is a "new-to-poly bi/hetero couple," and not everyone is a "no-strings-attached unicorn." So you definitely have to analyze each individual situation to figure out who should get "privelage" about which things -- if any. Sometimes everyone needs to work together to agree on a composite set of rules.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Also non-negotiable, I'm pretty sure, is the idea that everyone (all new partners and their partners) would need to get along well together before we could consider forming a "joint network." Guess we're exercising "V privelage" again in that sense. We feel strongly about it. We're not a "loosely-connected clan" type of family.

In all of this, it's important to emphasize how, to the three, of us, we really need to get to know a new person (and their companions) well, before we start forming any kind of intimate (e.g. sexual) bonds with them. We are very sensitive about trust. As the lady of our V (the hinge) would put it, "Trust has to be earned."

Sometimes I think you have to "forget about privelage" and just sit down to talk as adults and negotiate who has the most needs in which areas.

But not everyone is a "new-to-poly bi/hetero couple," and not everyone is a "no-strings-attached unicorn." So you definitely have to analyze each individual situation to figure out who should get "privelage" about which things -- if any. Sometimes everyone needs to work together to agree on a composite set of rules.

LOVED these points!

I am always amazed by the attitude that trust should be inherent just because someone wants sex.
I didn't do that when I was considering who to date, WHY would I do that in poly?
I wouldn't.

And the reality is that different people have different needs. There really is a point where you can, as adults, say, "hmmm, sexy, amazing connection, but different life needs and it won't work."
If someone isn't ok with the limitations that come with my life-they are not required to join it.

And-there has been and will be no effort to find a "HBB" because none of us is interested in sharing a lover. So that is arbitrary too.

Any individual who was a potential for one of us-is going to be held to precisely the expectations that were held for us to become a V.

Maca had to earn my trust and I his.
GG had to earn my trust and I his.
Maca and GG had to earn each others trust.

In all cases, because I had a child before I even became FRIENDLY with either of them-they both had to accept the responsibilities of dating someone with a child, a child whose needs do and will always come before their wants.

This was a reality of my "single dating" life. It's true of my poly dating life. (not that there is much of one but whatever).
It's also true of anyone who wants to date either of the guys. THEY ARE PARENTS. They have full time obligations, to their children and their jobs and their current partner.
It's unreasonable to expect that obligations get dropped in order to increase relationships.
New relationships being an option is only available if current obligations are managed.
Period.

 

[kdt26417]

Thanks, LR.

I suppose one of the most important things is just that everyone knows ahead of time "what the rules are going to be." Then everyone can decide if they can live with the non-negotiables and if not, part in a friendly fashion before everyone gets all involved and entangled and subject to a break-up with broken hearts.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Absolutely!
If people aren't upfront and honest-that breeds SO MANY other issues later!

I have always been point blank with potential partners (and friends and employers etc) that my kids are my top priority and that means that if they need me, ever-I'm gone. Period. If they call-I answer. If they interrupt, I deal with it and they WILL interrupt.

Some people are shocked when they get the "and what that means" part-because their idea of kids being first priority are much less significant than mine. That's ok-but they need to know what it is to me, because it WILL impact them.

The same is true with poly. I know you guys aren't out. But we are. Primarily because I won't be in the closet. I won't pretend. It goes against the grain of the me I decided I needed to be when I stopped lying and cheating.
It's ok for people to not be out-but it wouldn't be ok for them to date me. So people need to KNOW that upfront. Before feelings get involved. Before dating. Before anything. Cause simply by associating with me, they will be involving themselves at least superficially with someone who is OUT about being bi and poly and whatever else.

There are so many things I find surprising about how people navigating "going to meet a potential" (which I don't do and never have-I build friendships and sometimes they turn into more. I don't ever do dating sights or blind dates etc). I can't imagine even considering going on a date with someone who hadn't already gotten the down low on what reality is to be in my circle. Why waste their time?

 

[kdt26417]

Sigh. I'd like to be out. My two companions are like no, no way, impossible, so I have agreed to honor their wishes (even though I occasionally mention the benefits of outing ourselves). Much of our families would freak, freak, freak. Some would be supportive. I think my companions are more vulnerable to their families' opinions of them than I am. Yeah, I already left the Mormon church, so I've already done the "worst possible thing" I could do to my family. They already know that if I do something that seems freaky to them, they might as well just deal with with it, because their only other option is falling out of contact with me. I've already been down that route and it no longer bothers me. Heck I'd like to come out and find out who my fast friends are.

I've tried the internet dating site scene, but it never led to anything, and never left me feeling particularly better to boot. Actually one particular scandal grew out of OKCupid, but that's a long sordid tale for another place and time.

Both of the great romances in my life started with platonic friendships. Things of a certain quality don't just form overnight.

As for dating, I guess it's possible for everyone to "lay it all on the line" at the start and say, "Okay, I can live with that," only to find out later (when the rubber meets the road) that their emotions have a mind of their own and they can't handle this or that rule after all. So I mean I'm saying, I know you can't always prevent broken hearts or unhappy relationships. But you can certainly improve the odds of things running smoothly by telling each other, right from the start, exactly what you can and can't expect from one another.

 

[london]

It's not a case of kids being less of a priority for some people, is just that some people, like me, acknowledge that their child has more than one adult who can take care of them so I don't have to cancel everything anytime my son sneezes. Nor does he need all his family gathered around him when he scrapes his knee. Of course, in an emergency, I'd drop everything but nine out of ten things that could come up aren't emergencies and can be sorted by the adult responsible for him at that time. I don't have to be with my family all the time for me (or them) to feel as if I am an active part of the unit. We can have time away from our family without it meaning that we are absent or neglectful of our responsibilities. Of course, if you are unable to fulfil your obligations then you certainly shouldn't be looking for new ones but I'll reiterate, fulfilling your obligations as a partner, parent or other family member does not mean you have to dedicate every spare second to them and if you believe that it does mean that to you, I can't understand a) why you'd consider starting relationships with anyone new or b) why you'd think you have a chance of success at building other relationships. But from my experience, you usually find that the poly people who live by this type of ethos don't have successful relationships outside of the primary union.

 

[Murasaki]

LOVED these points!

I am always amazed by the attitude that trust should be inherent just because someone wants sex.
I didn't do that when I was considering who to date, WHY would I do that in poly?
I wouldn't.

I agree wholeheartedly. I am also not quick to “trust” especially when sex is involved, or anticipated. I need a solid friendship before I find myself feeling comfortable getting sexually intimate with another person. Sometimes this takes years. Well Kuroi took more than a year for our friendship to build, trust to be established, and sex to be on the menu.

I made the mistake of following my ex’s que on PDA, intimacy, and sex. A mistake I knew better than to make, and intend not to make again. I suppose 20 years is long enough to forget (or dismiss) what worked originally? Most likely it was the NRE talking. >.>

And-there has been and will be no effort to find a "HBB" because none of us is interested in sharing a lover. So that is arbitrary too.

I would be more interested in being the “HBB” sadly I don’t meet the job requirements.

Any individual who was a potential for one of us-is going to be held to precisely the expectations that were held for us to become a V.

Maca had to earn my trust and I his.
GG had to earn my trust and I his.
Maca and GG had to earn each others trust.

. . .

This was a reality of my "single dating" life. It's true of my poly dating life. (not that there is much of one but whatever).

THIS is my point. Each person has a different comfort level. Dating as a Poly person should not be looked at as being so different that dating as a single. Other than the increased responsibilities, expectations, and family agreements.

In my world, I recognize that I can easily go out and date, and meet the “needs” of my current partner without a new discussion taking place. However these 15+ years of living together, have created some expectations between us. These expectation are not “needs” and aren’t really “wants” per say. They are the loving, I am thinking of you things we do for each other.

There was a thread here about a live in partner having serious stress and anxiety. After a couple days of working out what the cause was, why it was occurring the couple figured out that it was over a missing toothbrush. That was the live in partners expectation, easy to take care of the mental health in that situation. Would be nice if I can avoid that amount of stress for Momoiroi, or Kuroi by discussing what things would cause that kind of stress, before assuming everything will be fine. That they will adjust. These are the things that my partners and I actually discuss before I embark on things that can lead to dating.

It's also true of anyone who wants to date either of the guys. THEY ARE PARENTS. They have full time obligations, to their children and their jobs and their current partner.
It's unreasonable to expect that obligations get dropped in order to increase relationships.
New relationships being an option is only available if current obligations are managed.
Period.

Yes and this is why I talk about my time constraints in the beginning. Before there are any romantic emotions truly involved. (email, and IM crushing is not the say as having strong NRE or ORE emotions involved) I am fine with become friends, and not having the ability to grow into more than that due to difference in the amount of time we are each looking for from an SO. My heavy time constraints make my preference to date a married simplier. I see another married person as having heavy time constraints of their own (not the same kinds of time restraints, just more time needed for family things then what my single friends need). I also feel that a married won’t be expecting me to be their hierarchical “primary”. This important to me, and I’m open about this right away. I do not have the time, or energy to be someone’s primary relationship. I am also not looking to become entangled in the fashion that would create another primary relationship for myself, but then “not looking” for something has never stopped it from finding me.

Over this past week Kuroi and I have been talking about my being more social. I'm currently dealing with a lot of negative emotions. It can be like a roller coaster sometimes. Kuroi is also dealing with a lot of negative emotions. We handle these differently, but Kuroi has suggested that I follow the example Kuroi puts out there. Get out, be social meet people.

Kuroi told me specifically that getting out, meeting people helps reduce Kuroi's feelings of anxiety. Even if I talk to no one, and no one starts up a conversation with me I can at least enjoy the view. I am current in a more "withdraw" from everyone, and everything place, but this conversation has me considering where I'd want to go and enjoy the view.

 

[Murasaki]

It has occurred to me to check and see if my prior posts would be tweaked at all by my particular situation, as you intimated, Murasaki.

For the record I made that suggestion because reading your remarks gave me the impression that they were geared towards a married couple seeking a single. Which on the surface does seem to fit in your situation. I also felt that your wording was more looking at things as the Married couple being of the unicorn hunting variety, and I didn't believe you were anyone's Unicorn.

Perhaps my word choices were taken more aggressively then I intended. If offense was taken, none was intended.

 

[Murasaki]

No, I saw what you said, but other stuff you have said, including the passive aggressive tone of the OP suggests otherwise.

I was willing to once again give the benefit of the doubt until I read this part.

Passive-aggressive? hahahaha You cracked me up with that one. I shared this with Kuroi, who also laughed and said, “No I’d call you aggressive-aggressive. Nothing passive about you. Well outside of the bedroom anyway.”

What is passive-aggressive behavior? What are some of the signs?
Answer from Daniel K. Hall-Flavin, M.D

Passive-aggressive behavior is a pattern of indirectly expressing negative feelings instead of openly addressing them. There's a disconnect between what a passive-aggressive person says and what he or she does.

For example, a passive-aggressive person might appear to agree — perhaps even enthusiastically — with another person's request. Rather than complying with the request, however, he or she might express anger or resentment by failing to follow through or missing deadlines.

Specific signs of passive-aggressive behavior include:
*Resentment and opposition to the demands of others
*Procrastination and intentional mistakes in response to others' demands
*Cynical, sullen or hostile attitude
*Frequent complaints about feeling underappreciated or cheated

Although passive-aggressive behavior can be a feature of various mental health conditions, it isn't considered a distinct mental illness. However, passive-aggressive behavior can interfere with relationships and cause difficulties on the job. If you're struggling with passive-aggressive behavior — or you think a loved one is — consider consulting a therapist.

Confronting Passive Aggressive Behavior
Published on May 4, 2013 by Signe Whitson, L.S.W. in Passive Aggressive Diaries

1. Recognize the Warning Signs of Passive Aggression Behavior

Passive aggression is a deliberate and masked way of expressing covert feelings of anger (Long, Long & Whitson, 2009). This “sugarcoated hostility” involves a variety of behaviors designed to get back at another person without the other recognizing the underlying anger. When a person is able to quickly identify hallmark passive aggressive behaviors for what they are—hidden expressions of anger—they take the first critical step in disengaging from the destructive dynamic. Some of the most common passive aggressive behaviors to be aware of include:

*Procrastination
*Behaving beneath customary standards
*Pretending not to see, hear, remember, or understand requests
*The silent treatment
*Sulking & withdrawal
*Gossiping

2. Refuse to Engage

Passive aggressive adults are experts at getting others to act out their hidden anger. The skill of recognizing passive aggressive behaviors at face value allows you to be forewarned and to make a choice not to become entangled in a no-win power struggle. When you sense these destructive dynamics coming into play, manage your own emotions through such self-talk statements as:

“He is being passive aggressive and I will not participate in this routine.”

“I will not yell or become sarcastic because this behavior will only escalate the conflict.”

3. Point Out the Elephant in the Room

Passive aggressive persons spend their lives avoiding direct emotional expression and guarding against open acknowledgment of their anger. One of the most powerful ways to confront passive aggressive dynamics and change the behavior in the long-term, then, is to be willing to point out anger directly, when it is present in a situation. Anger should be affirmed in a factual, non-judgmental way, such as, “It seems to me that you are angry at me for making this request.” The impact of this seemingly simple exposure can be quite profound.

4. Expect & Accept Denial

Your goal is to make overt the anger that has been covert, stuffed inside, and kept secret for so long. Expect that once this has been done, the passive aggressive person will very likely deny the existence of anger.

When he does, you should verbally accept the defenses for the time being, with a response such as, “Okay! It was just a thought I wanted to share with you.” Don’t argue or correct the person’s denial at this time, but rather quietly back away from further discussion, leaving your spouse with the thought that you are aware there are some feelings of anger behind his behavior.

The advantage of this approach is the comfort of not having to justify or defend your acknowledgement of the anger. By simply sharing your awareness of his covert anger, you have sent a bold and powerful message that the passive aggressive behavior cannot continue and the relationship needs to change.

I can follow the suggestions on how to handle passive aggressive behavior if need be.

 

[london]

The whole tone of your original OP was basically "I believe x but I am going to pretend that I am objectively looking for differing perspectives but really I just want to rant about the people who I know think differently to me".

 

[Murasaki]

Sigh. I'd like to be out. My two companions are like no, no way, impossible, so I have agreed to honor their wishes (even though I occasionally mention the benefits of outing ourselves). Much of our families would freak, freak, freak. Some would be supportive. I think my companions are more vulnerable to their families' opinions of them than I am. Yeah, I already left the Mormon church, so I've already done the "worst possible thing" I could do to my family. They already know that if I do something that seems freaky to them, they might as well just deal with with it, because their only other option is falling out of contact with me. I've already been down that route and it no longer bothers me. Heck I'd like to come out and find out who my fast friends are.

Kuroi and I currently have no issue with being out. My work environment isn’t such that “office parties” happen, and Kuroi has only meet a couple of the people I have worked with over the last 10 years. Each of those people we were out to.
Family is another matter. The family who visit us regularly we are out to. There are a lot of religious people in my family, so they don’t know yet, but we aren't so much “hiding” it from them. It’s discussed on a need to know bases. My family does not live close, they are much more spread out than Kuroi’s. When the need arise they will know.

As far as any SO wanting to be out, or hidden. That will be for them to consider, and decide. I will respect their wishes.

I've tried the internet dating site scene, but it never led to anything, and never left me feeling particularly better to boot. Actually one particular scandal grew out of OKCupid, but that's a long sordid tale for another place and time.

Both of the great romances in my life started with platonic friendships. Things of a certain quality don't just form overnight.

I have meet several good friends via online dating sites. Making it clear that what I am actually looking for is friendship, with the possibility of growing into more than that later has helped (I think). My greatest relationship have all started as friendships. Kuroi and I were friends first, there was desire from early on, but intimacy and sex were not on the radar from me for a long while.

Another long time friend and I have had a very platonic situation until this past year. Now we have both awaked to an interest in intimacy with each other. Unfortunately it is not something we can act on right now. It is what it is, there is a possibility that intimacy can be established at a later time. Neither of us is pushing for that due to the circumstance that make intimacy not a viable option right now.

As for dating, I guess it's possible for everyone to "lay it all on the line" at the start and say, "Okay, I can live with that," only to find out later (when the rubber meets the road) that their emotions have a mind of their own and they can't handle this or that rule after all. So I mean I'm saying, I know you can't always prevent broken hearts or unhappy relationships. But you can certainly improve the odds of things running smoothly by telling each other, right from the start, exactly what you can and can't expect from one another.

I feel like you are describing my most recent Poly experience. Laying it all out there from the beginning doesn’t prevent hurt, and broken hearts when one of the person in a relationship find that something within that relationship isn’t working for them. My ex and I were looking for similar things when we got involved, or so we thought. In the end it turned out not to be the case, once I figured out what wasn’t working I could no longer continue in relationship with my ex.

I am still hurt and heart broken over it. It’s a struggle. Made more difficult by the emotions shared by my ex and Kuroi. My ex and I breaking up definitely strained the relationship between them. I was no longer willing to be a participate in the relationship. I wanted out completely. Needed space to lick my wounds and heal. I didn’t want my ex inviting me out and walking around looking like a couple. My ex is much more into PDA then I am, so a break up that includes PDA with my ex does not work for me. I was willing to be friends, but I needed distance. My ex was not ok with that, friction ensued.

My ex could not understand why I was uncomfortable going out with just my ex, or with the two of them.

 

[Murasaki]

I do not claim to know or understand the life of a solo poly person. To me “solo poly” refers to a person who does not live with any of their partners, and keeps their relationships as segregated as possible. I make guesses about how life from the perspective of a solo poly person works, but they are just my guesses.

If/when I am not living with my SO then I will gain some knowledge of how that works. To my minds eye a solo poly person, and their SO’s have very different expectations on each other, and those expectation (to me) are easier to work with than the expectations on live-in partners. The responsibilities, the time, and financial concerns would/could be similar, and make for a basic topic of conversation that I can relate to and understand.

I need to meet the person alone so we can have time together to assess our compatibility. I need for our relationship to be able to progress how we want it to, free from the influence and control of anyone else. That means if we meet up and decide to have sex that day, we can, without having to ask permission from a spouse. Let me give you an example, say I meet a guy online, Steve, and Steve has a wife, Daisy. Daisy, to feel comfortable, needs Steve to start his dates at home where she can meet them first. This is out of my comfort zone, I am happy to adapt my usual way of doing things by agreeing to spend time with his wife and perhaps family once we know we want to see more of one another but meeting them before I have even met Steve properly is just not going to happen. Steve encourages people to meet Daisy as she requests because he wants to "accommodate her needs" but at the same time, Steve and I have hit it off and he wants to see if we have any future. Would accommodating my needs when on a date with him be totally unreasonable? Should he pass up what we could have because his wife has needs that affect the way he can interact with other people he is considering having relations with? Should she, simply because she is his wife, get to say how we date? I mean, yes, Steve has a responsibility to maintain his existing relationships whilst he develops new ones, but does that mean he has to dismiss the perfectly reasonable wishes the person he is considering as a partner has when they date? Does that mean that I should go out of my comfort zone because of what his wife requires? No, I say.

This seems like you are angry about a situation you have been in and I have become the target of that anger. I am sorry you found yourself in such a situation, I and my family did not create the situation which caused you such distress, and is the source of your current anger.

 

[LovingRadiance]

As for dating, I guess it's possible for everyone to "lay it all on the line" at the start and say, "Okay, I can live with that," only to find out later (when the rubber meets the road) that their emotions have a mind of their own and they can't handle this or that rule after all. So I mean I'm saying, I know you can't always prevent broken hearts or unhappy relationships. But you can certainly improve the odds of things running smoothly by telling each other, right from the start, exactly what you can and can't expect from one another.

Very true. Things change over time.
But-if you start with a clear understanding of where things are, it's much easier to avoid the "omg how could you" issues of people thinking you lied-when it was lack of a topic coming up.
OR
As seems to be the case with Maca, people assume that you want/will offer one thing, which you never intended to, and they get pissed off and create drama because "everyone knows" that's what was meant by xyz behavior.

Too many people make the assumption that their ideas are everyone's ideas. Dangerous path!

I've had a number of relationships and I'm friends with all of them now.
But I can honestly say that the ones with the least drama and issues were the ones I took time to befriend before jumping in the sack. People who REALLY knew me. Knew the "bad" me before they decided yay or nay regarding getting in bed with me.

The ones I cruised into sexual relationships with before really getting to know each other well-were like atom bombs. Just ticking.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Murasaki-

Random-what to the names you use on here mean? They read so cool.

On topic:

Nycindie has posted some GREAT information about how solopoly works for her. I LOVE to read her posts. She's so agreeably understanding that people are different and have different needs. She's a polar opposite of me in her poly. But she's so respectful that I love discussing topics we disagree on with her. You might check out some of her writing.

I read (and commented) on the toothbrush post. Which is what I think of it as now.

I TOTALLY get it and it's one of the key factors in how we do things. WHY distress someone for no reason? These people I share a life with, I love. I care for them and they care for me. I am a caretaker for them and they for me. If something as silly as being sure my shoes aren't borrowed or the toothbrush doesn't leave makes things run smoothly-who could argue with agreeing to it?
That's not a "rule" much less a "rule that negatively impacts a new partner". What the hell does a new partner care if you leave a toothbrush at home (as long as you HAVE one at their place or on you so your teeth get cleaned?).

In all honesty, before I was married I was in open relationships for a long time. Sometimes as a solo, for four years with a live in partner. Combining that to the 4 years we've been poly gives me roughly 10-12 years of living an open relationship style. Always done in the same basic way I do it now. Everyone knows everyone else. Everyone gets along.
In all of that time, I never have encountered a person who felt there was a conflict over making allowances for comfort for EACH PERSON.

If my new partner was uncomfortable with eating meat, we wouldn't expect them to eat meat (yes been there done that). If they were uncomfortable with nudity in front of others, we wouldn't be getting nude in front of them or asking them to.
I mean really... it's about EVERYONE has comfort. I won't create discomfort for my live-ins to benefit the personal desires of a new person (or vice versa). I won't drop my current responsibilities either.

It's like a job. If I have a job and I want a second job. I can't just go get a second job that has the same hours as the first and expect the first job not to terminate my employment. That's irresponsible and stupid. I can seek a second job that is not going to disrupt my ability to do my first job. If there is a small amount of overlap, I can see if my first job is willing to make some allowances so I can manage both.
But I have a responsibility to uphold my current agreements with my first job OR terminate the contract if I can't. It's not reasonable to expect my first job to wait for me to reappear while I go run off to check out a new job.

Or God forbid, can you imagine. You have a second child and tell the first that they will just have to go live with someone else because you are too busy to deal with them?
My friend had a preemie by emergency c section when she was 6 months pregnant. She and baby nearly died. They had a 2 year old at home. It was iffy for almost 4 months as to whether baby was going to make it.
It traumatized the 2 year old. They busted their butts, had someone come stay with them so she was always at home, took turns going to the hospital so that one of them could always be with her and not "abandon" her. But it was still traumatizing having so much stress and attention on this new little being she never met (she was too young and they wouldn't allow her in the NICU). The girls are 12 and soon to be 10 now. The oldest still has abandonment issues and resentment issues. This was an unplanned crisis.

But to knowingly put your loved ones into unnecessary crisis? Asinine.

Ok-time for me to shut up go drink my morning chai and hush my mouth. Sorry!

 

[Murasaki]

Murasaki-

Random-what to the names you use on here mean? They read so cool.

It's a secret. >.> J/k They are colors in Japanese.
Murasaki - Purple
Kuroi -Black
Momoiroi - Pink

Not sure which others I have used, but I put a color to each person before writing about them here. I chose that as my theme in this forum, but I use other themes else where. Doesn't have to make sense, sometimes it’s just that the sound in Japanese feels right for the person I gave that color too. Other times it's the color that person was wearing when we met. Either on their body, or in their hair.
Akai -means red and was the "flash" of color in that persons hair when we meet face to face.
Kuroi -wears black pants all the time.
Murasaki -One of my favorite Gogole Bordello songs is "start wearing Purple"
Momoiroi -One of Momoiroi's fav songs is by Pink


I enjoy looking for interesting connections and picking a "theme" and pulling the words from another language to connect to a person.

My preferred languages to look up are Russian, and Japanese. Momoiroi offered to tell me colors in Chinese if/when I run out of Japanese ones.
What do Russian and Japanese have in common to me? Nothing really. Just that I like the way words are spelled, or sound in those languages.

On topic:

Nycindie has posted some GREAT information about how solopoly works for her. I LOVE to read her posts. She's so agreeably understanding that people are different and have different needs. She's a polar opposite of me in her poly. But she's so respectful that I love discussing topics we disagree on with her. You might check out some of her writing.

Momoiroi: *reading over my shoulder comments on this part* That reminds me of you! Discussing topics with people you disagree with.

I’ll go look for some of Nycindie’s threads, when I have time to sit and read (the weekends aren’t great for that).

I TOTALLY get it and it's one of the key factors in how we do things. WHY distress someone for no reason? These people I share a life with, I love. I care for them and they care for me. I am a caretaker for them and they for me. If something as silly as being sure my shoes aren't borrowed or the toothbrush doesn't leave makes things run smoothly-who could argue with agreeing to it?
That's not a "rule" much less a "rule that negatively impacts a new partner". What the hell does a new partner care if you leave a toothbrush at home (as long as you HAVE one at their place or on you so your teeth get cleaned?).

yes exactly. I’m sure there are thing of this nature that could negatively impact on another relationship. However I believe that most of the time this kind of thing can be easily remedied if taken care of early, before the problem become too large to for an easy solution to be found.

It's like a job. If I have a job and I want a second job. I can't just go get a second job that has the same hours as the first and expect the first job not to terminate my employment. That's irresponsible and stupid. I can seek a second job that is not going to disrupt my ability to do my first job. If there is a small amount of overlap, I can see if my first job is willing to make some allowances so I can manage both.
But I have a responsibility to uphold my current agreements with my first job OR terminate the contract if I can't. It's not reasonable to expect my first job to wait for me to reappear while I go run off to check out a new job.

I think this is probably the best example/explanation of my thoughts here I have read yet. I’m glad you found the right words to express this sentiment. I apparently have not been able to convey it properly myself.

Or God forbid, can you imagine. You have a second child and tell the first that they will just have to go live with someone else because you are too busy to deal with them?

That would be extreme, but isn’t far from the mark when couples talk about the “poly hell” things they go through.

Ok-time for me to shut up go drink my morning chai and hush my mouth. Sorry!

enjoy your Chai. Hmm, maybe I’ll join you (from a distance) and have a cup of hot tea myself.