Does polyamory work for men?

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I'm looking for more than just sex. I would like a friend that I can talk to. Someone I can go out and do things with. Having an emotional connection would be nice. Not someone I would fall in love with but someone that I care about.

Why not someone you would fall in love with?

I can be happy with a good friends-with-benefits set up. But I wouldn't get into one with someone who, for whatever reason, was bothered by the possibility of us falling in love. Because sometimes that happens. Not always. Not even often in my experience. But it does happen and there's no real way to control for it.

Just throwing that out there because if the "no falling in love" attitude is coming through online, it could be part of the problem.

 

[poly518]

Falling in love is against the rules.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Falling in love is against the rules.

Please be joking

 

[poly518]

Nope!

 

[vinsanity0]

Falling in love is against the rules.

Impossible rule to follow.

 

[threesnocrowd]

Hey P518,

Great topic. I think you're definitely not alone. I have a very similar experience. When my wife and I realized we were poly and opened up our relationship, she found a great guy relatively quickly. And she has been in a steady relationship with him since. I feel thrilled for her and like him too.

But I have been having a very hard time meeting a woman who wants to get serious with a married man. And like you, I am smart, attractive, successful, all the rest. I think the best advice is that things come to you when you're not looking for them. At least that is what I tell myself.

 

[Dagferi]

Falling in love is against the rules.

That's going to blow up in someone's face and a swinger mentality that doesn't work in poly.

No wonder why you are having trouble finding partners. No woman in her right mind is going to tolerate being told how far her relationship can go. No one wants to be treated second class and no better than a toy who could be thrown away at any point.

 

[tenK]

What Dagferi said…

Did you request this rule, or your wife? What purpose does it serve? You need to have a long hard think about this and the implications it will have going forward. Because feelings, they happen. And if one of you does fall in love, or someone who is dating one of you falls in love, what happens then? Does the relationship have to be terminated?

I think if that rule cannot be relaxed by the pair of you, then you really aren't able to offer as much in a relationship as you think. Allowing love to blossom does not have to mean that 'anything goes' in terms of life entanglement. You and your wife can both experience falling in love with other people without needing to move that person into your household, or have multiple marriage-like relationships, or needing to split your time and resources differently in any way. But if you have to say to any prospective lover 'By the way, if we fall in love, I have to end this thing', then you are going to find it ridiculously hard to date. And if you decide not to tell them ahead of time? That's even worse. If that is the route you want to take, for whatever reason, then yes, you are better off looking for someone on the swinging scene and keeping your interactions infrequent. As should your wife. You will have to give up your hopes of having any kind of emotional connection or friendship, and possibly have to restrict your sexual interactions to parties or with your sexual partner's other partner present. In short, it is a very different scenario to the one you say you hope to have. So I urge you to consider why you've made that agreement with your wife when it's only going to limit the pair of you.

 

[FallenAngelina]

That's going to blow up in someone's face and a swinger mentality that doesn't work in poly.

No wonder why you are having trouble finding partners. No woman in her right mind is going to tolerate being told how far her relationship can go. No one wants to be treated second class and no better than a toy who could be thrown away at any point.

Spot on.

I'm your target market, poly518, and I would never, ever, ever respond to a man who has that kind of agreement with his spouse. It's fool hearty, ineffectual and not poly-minded at all. You're looking for an NSA sex and activity partner, not a polyamorous relationship and there are extraordinarily few women who would want this kind of cap on an ongoing relationship - a cap you feel only when you've bumped up against it and that is a terribly painful place to be. The "no falling in love" rule is based on fear and nothing else. I would never want to be involved with people who don't come to relationships with the same basic inclusive orientation that I do. Swingers and poly people have a lot less in common than most think. Now, you may just find a woman for whom your "no love" rule works, but she very likely won't be polyamorous in nature.

"Have difficulty finding partners" is all about the searcher's energy and never has a thing to do with "what's out there." TenK wrote an amazing post. We all should read it at least twice.

 

[Magdlyn]

Falling in love is against the rules.

Please be joking

Nope!

Impossible rule to follow.

And since this board is called PolyAMORy, I feel you're asking the wrong people to address your issue of being dateless. Falling in LOVE is part of the deal here. AMOR means love!

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I feel you're asking the wrong people to address your issue of being dateless.

And asking the wrong people out on dates

Others have said it very well - poly women don't want to go into a relationship knowing they may be kicked to the curb someday for the crime of caring too much. We don't want to risk the drama that impossible-to-follow rules create. And most of us who date online have developed finely tuned radar for those things.

You can look for a casual sex buddy on the sites you're already using. I'm sure there are women in the same situation, looking for the same things. Just be honest and upfront about what you can offer.

 

[opalescent]

Feelings can't be ruled

Falling in love is against the rules.

Impossible rule to follow.

That's going to blow up in someone's face and a swinger mentality that doesn't work in poly.

No wonder why you are having trouble finding partners. No woman in her right mind is going to tolerate being told how far her relationship can go. No one wants to be treated second class and no better than a toy who could be thrown away at any point.

What Dagferi said…

Did you request this rule, or your wife? What purpose does it serve? You need to have a long hard think about this and the implications it will have going forward. Because feelings, they happen. And if one of you does fall in love, or someone who is dating one of you falls in love, what happens then? Does the relationship have to be terminated?

I think if that rule cannot be relaxed by the pair of you, then you really aren't able to offer as much in a relationship as you think. Allowing love to blossom does not have to mean that 'anything goes' in terms of life entanglement. You and your wife can both experience falling in love with other people without needing to move that person into your household, or have multiple marriage-like relationships, or needing to split your time and resources differently in any way. But if you have to say to any prospective lover 'By the way, if we fall in love, I have to end this thing', then you are going to find it ridiculously hard to date. And if you decide not to tell them ahead of time? That's even worse. If that is the route you want to take, for whatever reason, then yes, you are better off looking for someone on the swinging scene and keeping your interactions infrequent. As should your wife. You will have to give up your hopes of having any kind of emotional connection or friendship, and possibly have to restrict your sexual interactions to parties or with your sexual partner's other partner present. In short, it is a very different scenario to the one you say you hope to have. So I urge you to consider why you've made that agreement with your wife when it's only going to limit the pair of you.

Spot on.

I'm your target market, poly518, and I would never, ever, ever respond to a man who has that kind of agreement with his spouse. It's fool hearty, ineffectual and not poly-minded at all. You're looking for an NSA sex and activity partner, not a polyamorous relationship and there are extraordinarily few women who would want this kind of cap on an ongoing relationship - a cap you feel only when you've bumped up against it and that is a terribly painful place to be.

"Have difficulty finding partners" is all about the searcher's energy and never has a thing to do with "what's out there." TenK wrote an amazing post. We all should read it at least twice.

poly518,

I pulled together some of the other posters comments to highlight why most of us on this forum would strongly advise against this kind of rule. The underlying reason we had such a strong reaction may not be immediately obvious. Here's why. Feelings cannot be told not to exist. They just are. That is not really under anyone's control. So a rule telling someone not to have a feeling is a rule that will fail. And this rule will usually fail in such a way that people are really hurt. See this recent thread for an example: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77885. The wife in that thread should not have cheated, I'm not saying that's ok at all. But as someone pointed out in that thread, she was set up to fail. If you search for cheating, rules, boundaries and such on the tag search here, you will come across hundreds of similar stories. Read a few. It would also be super helpful if you read some of the discussions about rules, boundaries and the difference between the two.

That rule is incredibly common for people to put into place who are new to poly, or ethical non-monogamy (poly is a subset of ethical non-monogamy which also includes swinging, open relationships, etc.). It seems to offer security to the couple involved and promises to end fear. However, it's a devil's bargain for the reasons folks have pointed out. In the end, it doesn't make the couple truly more secure or reduce their fears. In fact, as people struggle with this rule in their relationships, it can actually amp up the fear and pain. And if someone in the couple does fall in love - which happens so often! - things can explode in horribly painful ways for everyone involved.

Ask yourself and your wife what is the purpose of this rule. Is it to make both of you feel secure? Reduce fears? Something else? What purpose does limiting emotional and romantic intimacy outside the couple serve? If you can get down to the underlying reason for this rule, you and your wife can then craft what is commonly called a boundary that meets that need while not setting you two up for failure and pain. (Quick and dirty definition of the difference between a rule and boundary - a rule is placed on someone else ('You will not fall in love.' 'If we fall in love, this relationship has to end.') while a boundary sets what you personally can tolerate for yourself ('I will not be in a relationship where it must end if we fall in love.' 'I focus most of my time and energy on my current relationship because of work and family obligations so I have limited time and energy to offer someone else.')

I also disagree with some of the posters saying that swinging will never meet your needs. The truth is, while emotional connection is not the focus of swinging, swingers often develop emotional attachments to the people they swing with. I know of swingers who have been swinging with the same people for years and years - they are friends as well as lovers. And as tenK pointed out, there is huge variability in poly relationships. Some are everyone lives together in the same house, raise kids together. Some are long term, stable friends with benefits relationships. Some people have multiple connecting relationships but never live with partners or mingle finances.

The point is 'multiple loving relationships' can take an almost infinite number of variations. As long as it works for your, your wife and your lovers, that's what matters. So it is entirely possible to have a loving connection develop out of swinging. Again, that's not the point of swinging - the point is to get laid and watch others get laid - but feelings can't be ruled out.

Let me use one of my relationships as an example. I am seeing a couple (Bean and Willow) casually. Our connection is probably best described as friends with benefits and play partners. (I'm kinky and so are they.) We get together for dinner, go to events together, chat on the phone, text each other, have fun sexy/kink times. When this ramped up several months ago, I sat them down and explicitly asked if they had limits on how our connection could develop. I told them that I enjoyed our play dates but I also saw them as potential partners and might want to date them, both together and separately. They thought about what I said and came back to me and said there were no limits on how things could go and they also wanted to see what happened. A few months later, I believe that this relationship is best shaping up as FWB/play partners. At this point, I don't think it will evolve into a more serious romantic relationship. And you know what? That's totally fine. I really enjoy them as who and what they are to me (and me to them)! We are seeing the natural level of a relationship play out. But if they had limits on where things could go - no falling in love, no dating - I would have had to walk away as my personal boundary is that I will not be in such a relationship. It is too painful for me and I can't tolerate it.

So I hope you and your wife will take some time to think about your rules (explicit and implicit) and really mull over the reasons behind them and how boundaries - that are placed only on the person who creates them - might serve both of you better in the long run.

 

[FallenAngelina]

...this relationship is best shaping up as FWB/play partners. At this point, I don't think it will evolve into a more serious romantic relationship. And you know what? That's totally fine. I really enjoy them as who and what they are to me (and me to them)! We are seeing the natural level of a relationship play out. But if they had limits on where things could go - no falling in love, no dating - I would have had to walk away as my personal boundary is that I will not be in such a relationship. It is too painful for me and I can't tolerate it.

I have the very same relationship with a couple (minus the kink ) and consider myself very polyamorous. The FWB relationship is successful only because everyone is open to allowing the relationship to be what it is. We have never had a prohibition on feelings. We're naturally friends who do things together, have visits and sleepovers and we also have sex. If the guy had sat me down and informed me of a rule about "no falling in love" I would have bolted before the first date. He and I dated first and I got to be friends with his GF as things moved along. The "no falling in love" rule is an indicator (to me) of the need for control and people who are not emotionally willing to allow relationships to breathe and reveal themselves as they mature. To me, the great joy of a relationship is in the discovery of what it wants to be and that's where the "amour" comes in. I do love my couple and they love me, but in the way that our relationship shows us to love. Nobody was trying to fill a slot or fit into a role and we're free to deeply enjoy the relationship because none of us is encumbered by the fear of "going too far."

 

[poly518]

I think some of you are too caught up in your labels. Just because I'm not looking for love doesn't make me an asshole looking to fuck someone and throw them away. I already commented in an earlier post exactly what I was looking for. The "no love" rule was something we both agreed on. You can still care for someone and not say I love you.

And those assuming my lack of looking for love is my problem, it's not. If you would read through my experience and some of the other men on this post, my issue is not being able to find someone to talk to in the first place. The topic of love is not something that comes up in your greeting to another woman. I'm failing on step #1, starting a conversation. On the dating sites, I'm assuming most woman turn the other way because they are looking for marriage and that is not something I can offer. I believe the initial step is the most difficult one for most men.

 

[GreenAcres]

I think some of you are too caught up in your labels. Just because I'm not looking for love doesn't make me an asshole looking to fuck someone and throw them away. I already commented in an earlier post exactly what I was looking for. The "no love" rule was something we both agreed on. You can still care for someone and not say I love you.

And those assuming my lack of looking for love is my problem, it's not. If you would read through my experience and some of the other men on this post, my issue is not being able to find someone to talk to in the first place. The topic of love is not something that comes up in your greeting to another woman. I'm failing on step #1, starting a conversation. On the dating sites, I'm assuming most woman turn the other way because they are looking for marriage and that is not something I can offer. I believe the initial step is the most difficult one for most men.

While I agree that it's difficult to get past step #1, as you say, I think the major point was missed, which is less about love, specifically, and more about rules placed on another relationship. I, too, am in your target demographic. And, unfortunately, I had so many negative experiences with married/nesting couples that I won't date someone who is in that situation. Almost all of those negative experiences were "rules" laid on my relationship by the couple (which, incidentally, I was never told about until after I was involved with one of them; and, which I'd never agreed to had I known about up front).

For me, it wasn't about "don't fall in love," specifically. It was that I was instantly controlled, from the word go, and that I was seen as ultimately disposable regardless of my actions; and, that it was assumed that it was okay to control another person and relationship. With most of these relationships, I wouldn't have been looking to fall in love; but, even when not in love, I can tell you it's very painful to have someone say "sorry, my partner is insecure, and while we have a great thing, I'm dumping you," which is essentially what all those rules boil down to (yes, that's harsh, but it's accurate--I was never dumped because I'd cowgirled/wanted more resources or time than originally agreed upon/caused drama/etc., it was ALWAYS that the metamour had issues with developing feelings/activities that were "special," or whatever).

It's not about whether or not love is involved. You're right, that likely won't come up for a while. It is about trying to control and define another person, and a relationship. There are probably women out there who would be okay with this, but since you're already looking at a REALLY small dating pool (poly people aren't that common, really), it's worth thinking about. Many women, like me, simply will not date partnered men because these kinds of things are so prevalent, so being able to offer a freedom of relationship dynamic up-front would actually give you an edge with poly ladies who may be willing to do so under the right circumstances. Meaning, at least online or at meetups, it could be something that helps get you to step #1 (if you can put in your profile that you're open to various configurations, with no emotional restrictions on development, you very well get more responses from poly women).

 

[tenK]

I understand what you're saying 518, about falling at the first hurdle. And it's obvious that you have little to offer a mono woman on a dating site. In that environment, when selecting from a bunch of profiles of strangers, you being married is undoubtedly a definite turn-off given the plethora of unattached guys there are. The suggestion people have been making is that you focus on finding poly women. And if you start meeting and hanging out with more of them, then the question of what rules and boundaries you and you wife have WILL come up. Your pool of eligible women becomes ever smaller the more restrictions you place upon them, and as other posters have pointed out in their sharing of anecdotes earlier, it's one thing for a relationship to naturally settle into a caring-but-not-quite-love configuration, and another to know ahead of time that anything more is out the window.

For the record, even if you were just looking for casual sex, that doesn't make you an asshole. If my posts made you think that's what I was saying, then I apologise for not being clear. Unfortunately I'm not sure there's much people can advise you on beyond what's already been said: focus on the kinds of women who would be open to a man in a poly relationship; focus on yourself and your own activities in the meantime while you're at a loose end; and consider carefully why you have the rules you have in case you are asked to explain yourself. It's disappointing, but I guess in the end you just have to exercise patience and understand that you have a stacked set of constraints that you're working with that is going to put a lot of people off right from the outset. However, on the plus side, if you do find someone who matches your criteria, you DO stand a really good chance of being very compatible. And remember, if you meet a woman who is really into you, but hates that you're married, she's not the right woman for you anyway. If you meet a woman who is really into you, but who you're not into in turn, she's not the right woman for you. If you meet a woman who's really into you so much so that she loves you, and you love her, then she's (apparently) not the right woman for you. And so on. You see how it goes. There's no point in compromising on any of the criteria you have, because you need her to be okay with all of it. So yeah, you might get more dates if you pretend to be single, pretend to be into people you're not, or pretend that it's ok to develop strong feelings when it's not, but that's just going to blow up in your face eventually. So all you can do is put yourself and what you're looking for and what you can offer out there, and see if anyone bites.

 

[WhatHappened]

I've been looking for over a year now and still have no one to talk to or hang out with. .... I am attractive, mid 30's, nice body, intelligent, have a professional career, good hygiene, funny, and have lots to talk about.

Falling in love is against the rules.

So, you have all these wonderful qualities, and what you want is someone to fill in those empty spots when your wife isn't there for you? Think about how this might sound to the potential women you want to date. What if a woman on her profile says she's attractive, great body, intelligent, has a professional career, good hygiene, funny, lots to talk about, and would like you to be there as a friend to keep her great company and maybe provide hot sex, when her husband isn't available, but don't go falling in love with her?

, is your desire for someone to be there when your wife isn't? Someone to spend time with when she's busy and out dating others?

You didn't answer this question. Are you looking for someone to fill in that space when your wife is off with someone else? If so, I think you may find that this might leave many women feeling used...you want them to stave off the loneliness when she's away, and...make themselves scarce and not interfere in your life when she feels like being with you instead of someone else? I don't mean to be harsh, and I'm sure you have never thought of it this way, but as a secondary single, I'm telling you how it MAY WELL FEEL to the hypothetical woman in question, and asking you to really think through what you may not have yet...how it ultimately treats the hypothetical women you imagine yourself dating.

Are you going to have time for her when your wife wants to be with you? Are you going to be there for her in her emergencies and crises, or do you only want a fun time girl for when you're lonely?

Just because I'm not looking for love doesn't make me an asshole looking to fuck someone and throw them away. I already commented in an earlier post exactly what I was looking for. The "no love" rule was something we both agreed on. You can still care for someone and not say I love you.

There are two problems here. One is that it's a foolish agreement. As others have said, emotions don't cooperate. When you spend lots of time with someone, having a great time, having deep conversations, and being physically intimate...emotions DO get involved, more often than not.

The second is that, this is YOUR agreement, with YOUR WIFE. But you're expecting a third person to just somehow magically fit into YOUR agreement with YOUR WIFE. This incoming person was not party to this agreement, and even if she was...see above. It's a foolish agreement that pretends human nature is not what it is.

My XBF thought he could somehow not fall in love, and somehow have an intimate relationship in which neither of us fell in love, and we were both happy to forever have a deep relationship without 'love.' It didn't end well. It was, quite frankly, a pretty unrealistic expectation. Maybe a few people out there can do that...but most can't, won't, and don't want to. It seems to me to almost defeat the purpose of an intimate relationship, to expect NOT to fall in love.

...my issue is not being able to find someone to talk to in the first place. The topic of love is not something that comes up in your greeting to another woman. I'm failing on step #1, starting a conversation. On the dating sites, I'm assuming most women turn the other way because they are looking for marriage and that is not something I can offer. I believe the initial step is the most difficult one for most men.

My reaction to this is: yes, you're right. Most women do not want to get involved with a married man, for some pretty obvious reasons. No one here can change human nature for you. No one here can change what most single women are looking for.

You nailed it: you can't offer a single woman what most single women are ultimately looking for. So what is it you expect anyone here to do for you? No one here can change human nature or what they're looking for.

I think someone above said, look for a poly woman. I'd say, look for a married poly woman who, like you, does not want, and has no room in her life for, marriage. This is a very, very small pool. Good luck.

 

[Dagferi]

I will put it bluntly..

There are very very few women who are going to want to play second fiddle to your wife, to fill the the void when you are bored/lonely when your wife is away doing her thing. Your only hope is going to be married poly women with the same agreement you have with your wife.

I am your target audience too but I would NEVER get involved with you because A) I do not want to fill a void in someone's life because their wife is out having fun and they want to also because they are lonely/bored/jealous of their wife's extramarital fun B) I do not like others telling me what shape my relationships can and will take with NO input on my part C) I am not going to be the dirty little secret. I our spending holidays, going on trips with, meeting the family and friends of the men I date.

You're going to find your dating pool is puddle sized at best. Shoot for poly women who want what you want. They are about your only hope.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

There are very very few women who are going to want to play second fiddle to your wife, to fill the the void when you are bored/lonely when your wife is away doing her thing. Your only hope is going to be married poly women with the same agreement you have with your wife.

+1 on this!

I'm failing on step #1, starting a conversation.

It's hard to offer help with that without knowing what's in your online profiles. Throwing out some advice which may or may not apply

I avoided anyone who used the words NSA, nothing serious, etc. Not because there's anything wrong with casual sex. But because I would prefer to have a say in how my relationships work and how close I become with a partner.

Also on the "nope" list were guys whose profiles seemed like a joint husband and wife effort. "We are exploring polyamory." "We are looking for people who..." The "we" stuff is fine if you are trying to date as a couple. If you're just looking for a partner for yourself, one sentence saying you're married and poly, or in an open marriage, or whatever, and keep the rest of it about you as an individual.

And all of the standard single person online dating advice still applies. Good pictures, correct grammar and spelling, show don't tell, be patient, etc.

 

[Magdlyn]

A few more ideas:

I feel for you. I feel your envy at your wife's seeming dating success.

However, even if you do find a woman interested in you, don't expect her to be available on the nights your wife is out, or away for an overnight. I've been trying to make that happen for almost 7 years with my partner. lol It seems whenever she's out, I can't get one of my lovers to come over. It seems when I am out, it's not a night she can see her OSO. So, both of us have to be OK with being alone, or, at best, seeing a platonic friend on the other person's date night.

Sometimes it looks like we will both have a date, but then, one of our partners cancels last minute, or, like last weekend, the trains were messed up and my gf couldn't get to her bf's place. Today, the trains seem to be running, so she should be able to get to Boston. And my bf is expected to come here as well, to be with me. Maybe we will finally both be with our other partners simultaneously!

I wonder if you'd want to put your dating site profile up here so we poly women can see why it is getting you so little response? I have read literally thousands of profiles on OK Cupid, of single and polyamorous men. I know what interests me and what is an immediate turn-off.

Also, have you spent time answering the questions on OKC? Doing that, and especially answering the questions about open relationships, will help you match up with women who are looking for a guy like you.

Also, have you tried messaging older women? Women your age, mid 30s, are often up to their ears in babies and careers and have little time to consider looking for sexy fun times with a man other than their husband. Younger women in their 20s are usually searching for Mr Right. But women in their 40s and up often have more freedom and time and inclination to date. And lots of older women are extremely attractive with very high libidos.