"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policies: Merged threads/General discussion

LoveBunny said:
He doesn't know about the two men I dated after the woman, each for a couple of months, neither of whom panned out into long-term relationships. With both these men, I was able to keep a lid on my emotions and not let them affect my marriage.
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I am curious about how it was for the two men you dated. Were they uncomfortable, or perfectly okay with the DADT policy? Do you think that DADT had anything to do with those relationships being short-lived? (Not that there's anything wrong with short-term relationships.)
 
Hi, NYCindie. Definitely not a factor with the first guy. I just wasn't that into him sexually, so I ended it. The second guy... hard to say. He was recently divorced, and insisted he "wasn't looking for a relationship." He was also quite ok with the idea of an open marriage, said he always wanted to try one. He just sort of stopped calling/texting/Facebooking, which I know is guy-speak for "we're done now." He was kind of a player anyway, so I don't know if things would have been different between us if I had been able to introduce him to my husband, or even if I were utterly unattached.

That being said, I can see how eventually DADT could become a problem if I ever find a person I want a long-term relationship with. My husband is also aware that this is an issue we may need to discuss at some future point. Hopefully, by then I will have proved that I won't let relationships outside my marriage destroy me or my marriage.
 
Insights on DADT

I posted a thread earlier asking about successful DADT relationships, and I observed the following major issue: supporters of DADT generally focus on SEX, while opponents focus on SECRECY.

In other words, couples who say they practice it, generally talk about how they don't want to hear "blow-by-blows" or "all the gory details." They say it's none of their business, and a violation of privacy, which sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

But it DOES make me curious, are there individuals out there who really DO want to know every single detail? I'm probably in the opposition camp, but while I have no issues with knowing my partner is married/dating someone else, I really don't care to have sex positions described to me (though I love it when he and I talk dirty about what we might do with his partner, or with other women). I also don't need to know about what his plans are with other women, other than basics, such as whom he's having sex with, what nights he won't be available, etc.

It's more that I'm against the idea that his partner couldn't "handle" knowing that I'm a part of his life; that he has feelings for me; that he would have to pretend to his partner that she was the only woman in his life; that he would tell her that he's "with a friend" when he's with me. Even proponents appear to agree that you should be able to tell your partner whom you're dating/committing to, when you're going out on a date, etc. No one seems to think it's okay to have to lie to your partner about "working late at the office," when the truth is you're on a date.

I'd like to know, is ANYONE truly okay with having a partner who says, "Honey, I don't care if you date other people. But I don't ever want to find out"? Do they feel that counts as polyamory? Do you think that's in any way unfair to the other men/women involved? As a "secondary," would you ever put up with that? It's possible that if you love someone enough, you would find this acceptable. Or am I wrong? Thoughts?
 
Is it still polyamory? Yes, if there is the potential of multiple loving relationships.
Is it fair? It's fair as long as all people involved consent to the arrangement.

The problem is, like the guy I'm seeing, for example, his girlfriend wanted this type of arrangement, but very quickly it didn't work out. Supposing she said that she wanted to see him on Saturday, and he had a date, he'd say so, simply because he wasn't prepared to lie. Or he'd say that he was busy, and she would ask, doing what? and he'd tell her. Now, his other option would be to cancel the date to maintain the DADT, but nobody would put up with that, so the DADT would forcibly limit his relationships. This type of thing doesn't bother some people though, but those people are usually looking for something ultra-casual with absolutely no expectations or commitments, not even sort of a friend with benefits. Not even a friend would put up with being regularly ditched.
 
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As a secondary, no, I wouldn't find that level of "don't ask don't tell" comfortable or acceptable. I want his wife to know what I mean to him. But that's me.

I can answer you more on your first question. Yep, I like the details. I know intimate details of the lady areas of the women my husband has been with. I know what bf's wife does and doesn't like, and what they do together. More with hubs than with bf. Hubs and I outright goof around about it in vast detail. It doesn't bother me. Sometimes it's funny, and sometimes it turns me on. To each their own.
 
My insight about DADT policies, after reading the threads here, is that people tend to have very different understandings about what it actually is. I thought originally that DADT means that the partner does not know anything about the other partner's OSO, not even that they exist (definition #1). I have now learned that some people consider not sharing intimate details about their lives with one partner to OSOs being DADT (definition #2).

IMO, there is a huge difference between these two. I would say that Type #1 is almost impossible to be healthy, whereas Type #2 can easily work. Some people just are not that keen on knowing details of other people's lives.
 
Nadya said:
I thought that DADT meant that the partner does not know anything about the other partner's OSO, not even that they exist (definition #1). I have now learned that some people consider not sharing intimate details about their lives with one partner to OSO's being DADT (definition #2). There is a huge difference between these two.
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I've never actually thought of #2 as being DADT. I've always thought of it as you do: where a DADT policy is that you don't want to know about your partner's other relationship(s), period. With a DADT policy, there's no way in hell, for instance, that your partner's OSOs would attend family functions, get to know the kids, etc. They're pretty much kept as the dirty little secret the person with the DADT policy would rather not see.

On the other hand, #2 seems like more of a privacy or TMI type of thing. I'm happy to go to family functions with my partner and his OSO. I'm not cool with hearing details about how freaky they get in bed (and luckily, they're not keen on sharing). ;)

To answer Flowerchild's question, I do know someone who's interested in knowing all about what his wife and her BF do in bed. Not my cup of tea, but to each his own, as long as they're all on the same page.
 
I would have to agree with the posters above. I am not someone who wants details on what a partner is doing with other people. I do not need sexual details. However, I do want to know if my partner starts seeing someone else, I like to know a little about them (name, how they met, if they have other partners - stuff like that), and eventually I would want to meet them. I also like to know when they are getting together just so I can figure out my schedule. And we always ask if we had fun when we go out with others. I like to know if he had fun (answer is usually yes!).

That's not a Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. I know my partner sees other people. He knows I do. We've each met most of our other involvements. Whip and I have talked about this boundary (he would tell me details if I wanted so this boundary is definitely my request).

This might be ancient history for some, but the term comes from the now overturned US policy of 'allowing' gay people to serve in the US military as long as they never admitted or indicated in any way that they were gay. In return, the US military was not supposed to ask or otherwise track down gay servicemembers. (In reality, they did ask and investigate.) So gay soldiers could not talk about, show photos of, or indicate anything about their same-sex preference/orientation/partners.

When I think of a DADT relationship, it is this no discussion, no indication, no snooping that I think of. And that is horribly dysfunctional.

I consider my personal boundary to be one more about privacy, and staving off the comparison gremlins in my head. Whip is not responsible for those gremlins or for my handling them. But not hearing sexual details helps me to not compare myself to his other partners. It's not something I do often, and I am not particurarly envious or jealous in general. But if I get started down that path in my head, well, it can be hard to stop. I also suspect that as I get more comfortable, this boundary will ease and change.
 
opalescent said:
I consider my personal boundary to be one more about privacy, and staving off the comparison gremlins in my head. Whip is not responsible for those gremlins or for my handling them. But not hearing sexual details helps me to not compare myself to his other partners. It's not something I do often, and I am not particurarly envious or jealous in general. But if I get started down that path in my head, well, it can be hard to stop. I also suspect that as I get more comfortable, this boundary will ease and change.
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My wanting to know is for a similar reason. I actually have an easier time not playing the comparison game if I DO know what they are doing. Granted, we've had minor backfires. Like when I asked Spouse to do something, and then he wanted to know where I got the idea. It got a little awkward, but it turned out ok. :)
 
LoveBunny said:
I can see how eventually DADT could become a problem if I ever find a person I want a long-term relationship with. My husband is also aware that this is an issue we may need to discuss at some future point. Hopefully, by then I will have proved that I won't let relationships outside my marriage destroy me or my marriage.
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Hmm, your statement which I bolded makes me wonder: don't you feel rather policed by that kind of approach? I mean, it clearly sounds like you are just plain not trusted. Not trusted to be rational, not trusted to respect your commitments, and not trusted to make choices about how to live your own life. I would resent being treated like a child if my husband expected me to prove anything to him and didn't trust me to be a mature, rational adult.

That is why I could never be with someone who has a DADT policy in place with their partner. It speaks volumes about their dynamic and I just would not go there, no matter how attracted I might be to that person.

I would say that a lot of inner work needs to be done, individually and between the two of you, to dig deeper at fears, trust issues, and communication, before you ever embark on any relationships outside your marriage. It would be worth taking the time to do that, I believe, so that you can reach a more harmonious level of partnership, and not have to prove anything for your partner to know you have his back, no matter what.
 
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I wouldn't ever want to know the bedroom details of my partner and other folks she's with (what Nadya called #2). I'd certainly want to know if and when other partners of hers enter the picture, though (what Nadya called #1).

So, part of DADT is definitely my preferred model. I'd find it both oversharing and a breech of the other's privacy not to keep bedroom details to yourself. In that way, DADT is just a part of what I'd call loving respect. For myself, I couldn't really see a healthy relationship work without it. And another part of it is something I don't want at all. I don't see poly/open arrangements work out running on secrets and a lack of honesty.
 
nycindie said:
Don't you feel rather policed by that kind of approach? It sounds like you are just plain not trusted, to be rational, to respect your commitments, to make choices about how to live your own life.
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It's annoying, for sure, but you've got to take it in context: He watched me shatter into pieces over the first person I dated outside our marriage. (She was a really bad trip.) Her appearance in my life wasn't planned. It surprised and hurt him to see me fall for someone else. Then, watching me suffer over her was no picnic. He's not generally an overbearing, overprotective man, or he would NOT be my life partner.

But, since he IS my life partner, I don't expect him to do all the compromising. He thought he was getting monogamy in his marriage. I thought I could handle it, and did for 15 years. Now I've changed the rules. It's unrealistic to expect him to suddenly overcome a lifetime of thinking a certain way. He's already stepped far out of his comfort zone to accommodate MY needs, as he himself has no desire for other partners.

If the question is "Does DADT work?" we have to admit that this way of having multiple relationships has a long, distinguished history. I mean, ever since there's been marriage, there have been secret love affairs, plenty, I'm sure, which are fulfilling for all parties involved. At least in my situation, everyone knows they're in a DADT relationship. That being said, I personally hope hubby and I come to a more open place over time. But for now, his insistence on DADT is not a deal-breaker for me.

nycindie said:
I would say that a lot of inner work needs to be done, individually and between the two of you, to dig deeper at fears, trust issues, and communication, before you ever embark on any relationships outside your marriage.
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Well, that's a nice idea, but I don't think my sexuality is a genie that I'm willing to shove back in her bottle just now. I've already been repressing her for 15 years. My husband and I work very hard on our marriage, we stay mindful, we talk a lot, we support each other in our careers, we laugh, we argue, we cuddle, we make love. I accept that he might never be the guy capable of the sort of open relationship many have on this forum. He's just plain more traditional. So, we either wiggle around in our comfort zones and try to find a place where we can BOTH live comfortably, or we go our separate ways. So far, every day, we make the choice to stay together.
 
Oh, good for you two. That is a much clearer picture, and entirely different from how it sounded at first. You actually sound like you're in much better shape than most folks I've encountered who have a DADT policy.

It sounds like he does trust you, but he just doesn't want to hear or see what you're up to, in order to avoid the possibility of seeing you suffer or get yanked around emotionally. He wants you to be happy, but has no frame of reference for how to be there for you if things seem rough or like a rollercoaster. I guess at some point, you could say, "Look, babe. I've been having relationships with other people for X years now and everything's been going well. I think it's time that I not be expected to keep it all a secret."

I didn't mean to sound judgmental, but it just seemed like an area of concern when you said you had to prove to him that you could handle other relationships and not let them fuck up your marriage. The proving part triggered my reaction. I hate feeling like I have to pass a test for people I love, but I totally projected my own shit onto your situation. Sorry about that!
 
Hi there,

As a person who has dated one half of a couple (and later got involved with the other), I wouldn't get involved in a DADT situation again. My married man didn't tell his wife about me for some 3 years, I think. The last 2 years of our relationship she knew some things, and the last year itself the 3 of us were more involved together.

From what I know, it wasn't so much that he lied to her for 3 years or actively kept me a secret... she didn't want to know who, just that he'd be out for the night with another. She didn't realize that I was the only other for 3 years running and that we were developing something more than polyfuckery.

Learned my lesson... no more of that ever. When she did find out, she wasn't too happy at first. But then I wondered, if she didn't want to find out things like this well after the fact, then why not inquire during? And then there was the entire walking on eggshells bit about what she could know.
 
What does "don't ask, don't tell" (DADT) mean to you?

I think what distinguishes DADT from other non-monogamous relationship styles is the importance of keeping other partners hidden. Consent is/can be involved, but it is a generic consent, rather than the specifically informed consent I believe is an important part of polyamorous relationships.

Yesterday, I heard another possibility described, where if one considers disclosure as a sliding scale from extreme secrecy to sharing everything, then DADT falls somewhere on that scale. Do others see it this way?

I tried to image what the steps along this sliding scale of disclosure would look like.

  1. You know nothing about your partners' partners, never want to meet them and never want to hear about them.
  2. You've met each OSO once, but insist upon never seeing them again, nor discussing them.
  3. You don't mind bumping into OSOs and know who they are, but don't make plans including them and prefer not to discuss them.
  4. You know OSOs well, consider them at least good acquaintances, and sometimes include them in plans, but don't share details about sex and intimacy with them.
  5. You are good friends with OSOs (when friendship is reciprocated), they are a regular part of your life, you share details about sex and intimacy... are perhaps even *expected* to share details.
I would call only #1 is DADT. I think #2-5 are not DADT, hopefully obviously, in some cases. Until yesterday, I didn't think there was much difference of opinion about what is and is not DADT. I got the impression some people think that if you're not extremely open (as with #5) that meant you had a kind of DADT relationship.

I'm very curious what this group thinks.
 
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drtalon said:
I'm very curious what this group thinks.
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This group doesn't agree on a single solitary thing, I assure you. lol

To me, for an agreement to qualify as DADT, it includes a degree of denial. It is a retreat from the necessity of coming to terms with the reality of someone's life. It is refusing to take part in growing intimacy when it comes to that aspect of their lives. It is allowing insecurity and fear to dictate the nature of a relationship, instead of desire and personal preference.

It would be the first entry on your list, though the second entry is dangerously close.

The last entries on your list are about a sense of propriety and interest in hearing the details of other people's lives. While Ivy and I will discuss her sex life with her partners in the abstract, I don't want for her to describe the wet smacking noises of her lovemaking. It's just more information than I'm interested in. This is not a denial of the reality of her life, or excluding myself from intimate details, it is just personal preference.

I also don't want to hear the details of her bowel movements, to put things in perspective.
 
Of course there are a lot of other possibilities on the scale. For example, you may not be interested in being social with the OSO, but want to hear all the details of the relationship, emotional and sexual; or want to know about the emotional part, but not the sexual part; or want to know about the sexual part, but not the emotional part; or you may want to spend social time with the OSO, but not want to hear about the relationship.

The other issue is that each person in the relationship will be different regarding how they want to experience these aspects. And not only that, but that could actually change from one relationship to the other.

I personally would prefer to be social with everyone and know everything. That is just how I am. But each person in the configuration has their own personal boundaries, so I'd have to honor that.

Also, I may not particularly like one of the OSOs, and I may decide not to pursue social interactions with them (even if they want it) just because I don't feel a compatibility.

I like scales, and it would be fun to develop yours more! But I'm thinking that the possibilities are so endless, that it would be hard to put it on one page! It might be fun to try, though. I wonder if anyone has already put one together?
 
I think the 5 scales are too few. For Woodsmith and Seven, 5 is pretty much where the relationships are, only without the details of sex (intimacy yes, because they both want to know that the relationship with the other is going all right for me emotionally).
 
Marcus said:
This group doesn't agree on a single solitary thing, I assure you. lol
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LOL :D

Marcus said:
To me, for an agreement to qualify as DADT, it includes a degree of denial.
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I was in AA for 20 years and the topic of denial was talked about a lot. One day I realized that some denial is necessary for our survival. If all denial were immediately removed from the planet, everything would fall apart within hours, like a house of cards.

That said, I am fortunate to have a relationship with my SO where we can share about our other relationships. I'm a little different from Marcus, in that I like to hear the details of his sexual experiences with his girlfriend, and I even like to watch, if given the opportunity!
 
Well, with my ex, I did what I wanted. I didn't tell him and he didn't ask. I was not "allowed" (yes, I said allowed) to smoke, drink, go to bars, or date others (unless he was "in on it"). But I went to bars, where I stayed out until 4-5 am with my girlfriend. And I smoked. I assumed he knew what was going on, but as long as it wasn't discussed or in the open, it was fine.

I didn't like the situation, but wasn't willing to go to war, so I left. When Nate and I got together, we entered into it as poly.
 
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