BoringGuy
Banned
I'm not sure if I "kwym." You mean something that nobody else has mentioned yet, or just anything and everything in general? Tell us what's on your mind.
Don't want to play anymore :(
- Thread starter El186
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I'm not sure if I "kwym." You mean something that nobody else has mentioned yet, or just anything and everything in general? Tell us what's on your mind.
LovingRadiance
Active member
Essentially, yes. I don't say that to be cocky or obnoxious at all, either.
When I realized I that I was poly and in love with two men, I had to tell them, and then I had to decide what it was I needed to do to take care of myself (and my children). I hoped that they would carry their load of responsibility with the kids. But we can only control ourselves, not other people. Therefore, I had to depend on myself.
You write, and it's all about how miserable you are, and how much you don't like the situation.
You don't have the right to insist that anyone else change. You can ask, and they can tell you where to shove it.
But you do have the right to change yourself.
In your case, that may mean saying that you can't live there unless there is an agreement between the three of you that no one enters your room.
My husband (Maca) wouldn't dream of entering my boyfriend's (GG) bedroom without GG's permission, and vice versa. That is personal space. I share both spaces, and both are comfortable with me going in and out, but they do not enter each other's space without knowing it's ok with each other.
Similarly, GG does not have the right to expect me to alter the private relations between Maca and me for his comfort. Maca does not have the right to expect me to alter the private relations between GG and me for his comfort.
We all have the right to ask for changes, or special privileges for temporary situations or circumstances, but we don't have the right to expect them.
Your attitude of wanting them to derail an existing relationship (that you don't respect because it doesn't meet your expectations for a "good marriage") is unreasonable. If I were the person you said that to, I would kick you out of the house with no notice.
In order for a poly dynamic to function, it has to be understood that each couple makes their own rules for their relationship, and that metamours don't get to make those rules. You don't get a say-so in defining what is "good" or not about their marriage.
Furthermore, it's unfortunate that legal rights don't exist for multiple marriages, but this is a fact. It's not appropriate for you to insist that they divorce for your benefit. That is beyond selfish. It's childish.
What would be reasonable is for you to acknowledge that love is not enough to create full compatibility.
This guy is a married man. If you want a husband, he's not the man. It doesn't matter how much you love him. As the laws exist, he's not available. What promises he made are also arbitrary, as it stands he is not available to marry. Period.
Is that "fair"? *shrug* It's the law.
If you want a husband and all of the benefits that go with it, you need to move on.
As Galagirl has said on many occasions, and it has helped me very much to consider, this is the "price of admission." If you want to be with this guy, you don't get marriage and all of the benefits that go with it. That is the "price of admission" for being with him. If you want marriage and those benefits, you need to find another man. That is the "price of admission" for having those benefits.
LovingRadiance, in normal conditions, yes, I say that about accepting the price of admission. But in this case, when it smells like more abuse weirdo? This is TOO great a price to pay for admission.
I urge just leaving, and making the plan to leave safely, not considering any stated options. It is too great of a price of admission -- her soul dying incrementally, just to stick with this less-than-loving-behaviors man (intentional understatement). Abused people hear abuse at home. They don't need to hear more from me.
But OP, you do need to hear this. I do not write this to pain you or add to your burden. All I can offer you for comfort is that I really do read all your posts.
But you are aware you are in a precarious position, right? You sound at risk, to me. Twice abused. Sailing from the crazy man out to kill you into Europe-isolation weirdness? It may have sounded great, leaving the crazy behind, and having your new love help resettle you elsewhere. Kind, even. But it seems like it turned sour.
You could take a risk assessment of your situation. Only you know what other things you're dealing with there. Sigh...
If you read no other links today, maybe read this one.
http://speakoutloud.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Tactics-Murphy-2010.pdf
You went from running away from your crazy ex wanting to kill you, to hoping Prince Charming would rescue you. Now you've come to find, after three years of being isolated and his financial dependent, that the gilded cage you are in is still a cage.
You've taken no language lessons. You haven't gotten a job of your own to get you out of the house. The bf will buy you something that he can enjoy too (a fridge, a car, a trip to Amsterdam), but not things that give you any time away from being in his presence or under control (trips Stateside alone, your own flat) or that gives his wife time away from his presence and control, when a solution like that would lower the argument level and "too close for comfort" stuff that the kids are chronically exposed to. Your home life has a lot of arguing and yelling, it seems. That's not healthy for anyone.
Very fishy.
The only thing I can think of for why he would not entertain a reasonable solution like that is because one or both of you might wake up. The wife already seems to be waking up to whatever soft soap he's been selling her, and is chasing him down in the house to catch him at it. You and she cannot speak easily to each other in each other's language, so he can more easily pit you against each other, so you don't catch on to any triangulation games.
Makes you wonder now too -- if when she's previously been so nice to you... are you helping him to be mean to her by keeping info from her and doing lies of omission? Not comfortable thoughts for you to entertain. You are confused at all the brainwashing. Stage 3 person sounding to me.
However painful it is to open your eyes to see clearly, remove your blinders and see clearly.
When life gives you two choices, and both stink, choose the one that stinks the least.
Leaving him sucks less. You can choose to leave. You will hurt for a time because of the break up, but in time it will stop. That's better than hurting every day of your life. It may be scary to think about living alone and making it on your own when you never have before. But that's not a good reason to stay in a thing that sucks you dry.
Do you have relatives at home that would take you in and fly you back and away from this crazy? Can you call your embassy? Do you even still have access to your own/valid passport, or were those wings clipped too?
Remember you have worth, dignity, and value.
Even if you have to "play along" to get to a place where you can bolt better, make a safety plan.
Remember you are a survivor and have survived before. So do what you have to do to survive again and get yourself out safely.
I urge just leaving, and making the plan to leave safely, not considering any stated options. It is too great of a price of admission -- her soul dying incrementally, just to stick with this less-than-loving-behaviors man (intentional understatement). Abused people hear abuse at home. They don't need to hear more from me.
But OP, you do need to hear this. I do not write this to pain you or add to your burden. All I can offer you for comfort is that I really do read all your posts.
But you are aware you are in a precarious position, right? You sound at risk, to me. Twice abused. Sailing from the crazy man out to kill you into Europe-isolation weirdness? It may have sounded great, leaving the crazy behind, and having your new love help resettle you elsewhere. Kind, even. But it seems like it turned sour.
You could take a risk assessment of your situation. Only you know what other things you're dealing with there. Sigh...
If you read no other links today, maybe read this one.
http://speakoutloud.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Tactics-Murphy-2010.pdf
You went from running away from your crazy ex wanting to kill you, to hoping Prince Charming would rescue you. Now you've come to find, after three years of being isolated and his financial dependent, that the gilded cage you are in is still a cage.
You've taken no language lessons. You haven't gotten a job of your own to get you out of the house. The bf will buy you something that he can enjoy too (a fridge, a car, a trip to Amsterdam), but not things that give you any time away from being in his presence or under control (trips Stateside alone, your own flat) or that gives his wife time away from his presence and control, when a solution like that would lower the argument level and "too close for comfort" stuff that the kids are chronically exposed to. Your home life has a lot of arguing and yelling, it seems. That's not healthy for anyone.
Very fishy.
The only thing I can think of for why he would not entertain a reasonable solution like that is because one or both of you might wake up. The wife already seems to be waking up to whatever soft soap he's been selling her, and is chasing him down in the house to catch him at it. You and she cannot speak easily to each other in each other's language, so he can more easily pit you against each other, so you don't catch on to any triangulation games.
Makes you wonder now too -- if when she's previously been so nice to you... are you helping him to be mean to her by keeping info from her and doing lies of omission? Not comfortable thoughts for you to entertain. You are confused at all the brainwashing. Stage 3 person sounding to me.
However painful it is to open your eyes to see clearly, remove your blinders and see clearly.
When life gives you two choices, and both stink, choose the one that stinks the least.
Leaving him sucks less. You can choose to leave. You will hurt for a time because of the break up, but in time it will stop. That's better than hurting every day of your life. It may be scary to think about living alone and making it on your own when you never have before. But that's not a good reason to stay in a thing that sucks you dry.
Do you have relatives at home that would take you in and fly you back and away from this crazy? Can you call your embassy? Do you even still have access to your own/valid passport, or were those wings clipped too?
Remember you have worth, dignity, and value.
Even if you have to "play along" to get to a place where you can bolt better, make a safety plan.
Remember you are a survivor and have survived before. So do what you have to do to survive again and get yourself out safely.
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pollyanna
New member
I know weird stuff happens, but I find it hard to believe that any 50-year old woman would leave this country to go live with strangers in a country where she can't speak the language, and she has made outrageous demands, and those demands were graciously acquiesced to.
She sounds to me more like a whiney 15-year old princess who finds out Disney isn't really the truth. Imho, the OP sounds like she is kinda out of touch with reality. I honestly don't understand what she truly thought she was getting into and why she thinks it's ok to try to wreck the man's homelife, especially if the wife has been so good to her.
I dunno... It all sounds far-fetched to me. I moved from Texas to Boston to be with my (now) husband. It was frightening beyond belief to leave my life and depend upon someone else. I really don't think I could cross international lines.
pollyanna
New member
And, furthermore, I kinda sorta resent the 'Don't wanna play anymore' title/concept. It indicates a lack of maturity and self-responsibility to call changing others' families and lives to benefit one's own selfish whims and desires 'play.'
I consider our lifestyle, i.e., polyamory, serious. Hearts are involved and lives are changed. It's not a game we are playing.
I consider our lifestyle, i.e., polyamory, serious. Hearts are involved and lives are changed. It's not a game we are playing.
BoringGuy
Banned
I thought the same thing, but considered that the OP might have meant "play" as in "play this game". It does indeed seem to me that she is playing games.
You clearly have specific criteria as to what constitutes "play" and what doesn't. As I explained in the BDSM thread, you have the right to decide that for yourself, but you have no right to speak about what others consider "play" or "not-play." Do not come here and make statements about "our lifestyle, i.e., polyamory" because you do not speak for everyone on this forum just because most of us happen to be in a situation that satisfies the definition of the word.
For the most part, I agree with this. However, I take major issue with you declaring yourself as the spokesperson for people in this lifestyle, that lifestyle, etc. It makes me reluctant to admit when I do agree with you, because I feel as if doing so would reinforce your erroneous assumptions.
That said, Welcome to Massachusetts. I hope you like it here better than Texas. I'm speaking for "those of us in the Massachusetts lifestyle."
LovingRadiance
Active member
GG, I happen to agree that the price of admission is too high. That was sort of my point. There is a price any way you go. She is miserable. That's the price. It's not worth it.
So yes, take responsibility to meet your needs alone. He is not available (for a variety of reasons) to be what is sought.
"We never make the same mistake twice, because the second time, it's not a mistake, it's a choice." My daughter sent me that today, and it fits. If you can't get what you want and need in this scenario, it's time to leave.
So yes, take responsibility to meet your needs alone. He is not available (for a variety of reasons) to be what is sought.
"We never make the same mistake twice, because the second time, it's not a mistake, it's a choice." My daughter sent me that today, and it fits. If you can't get what you want and need in this scenario, it's time to leave.
gaiasrevenge
New member
What I see here is a classic case of agreeing to something you weren't sure of to start with, and finding out that "not too sure" was actually your brain trying to say, "Oh, hell no!!!!"
It's a crap situation, born out of many crap situations you have found yourself in, OP. You needed an escape, and this couple gave you one. Now that you're secure, and not worrying about the ex-husband killing you, you've moved up the Maslow scale and discovered your needs are different.
As others have said, all you can do is decide if this situation is good for you or not; you cannot demand anyone else change one thing about how they conduct their lives.
I feel I must point this out as well. You have lived in a non-English speaking country for three years and haven't bothered to learn the language? That form of isolation you most certainly do have a degree of control over. The fact you have no support network and no friends in this foreign land is pretty much your own fault. I'd start with that, if I were you. I'd learn the language, and make a life for myself that doesn't revolve around him all the time.
It's a crap situation, born out of many crap situations you have found yourself in, OP. You needed an escape, and this couple gave you one. Now that you're secure, and not worrying about the ex-husband killing you, you've moved up the Maslow scale and discovered your needs are different.
As others have said, all you can do is decide if this situation is good for you or not; you cannot demand anyone else change one thing about how they conduct their lives.
I feel I must point this out as well. You have lived in a non-English speaking country for three years and haven't bothered to learn the language? That form of isolation you most certainly do have a degree of control over. The fact you have no support network and no friends in this foreign land is pretty much your own fault. I'd start with that, if I were you. I'd learn the language, and make a life for myself that doesn't revolve around him all the time.
Vixtoria
New member
OP, basically, you've been a victim, a victim of abuse, so your mind, your brain is geared to surviving that.
I was once told, "What we do to survive, to stay sane, is valid, no matter how messed up, until we find a better way."
You did what you had to, but now you don't need to be a victim. Get thyself to therapy! Start reading some self-help books on abuse victims. Your mindset is stuck in victim. That will get annoying for everyone fast, because sooner rather than later, it is you making yourself a victim. I get it's hard, believe me. It's also not fair, that after being made a victim, you have to do the work to not be anymore. But those are your choices. Get yourself help so you can get your brain out of victim mode, and be a stronger person.
Hi guys. I just thought I would take a few moments for an update, and to answer some questions that have been brought up during the course of discussion.
This is the first attempt at poly for all of us. No one in the relationship has ever been poly before, or ever really considered it, although they are much more open-minded about things in general, here in Germany. But when the hinge in the relationship found me, we fell deeply in love and wanted to be together badly, yet he could not give up his kids and wife, so poly became a viable option at that time. We all agreed to enter into it with none of us, especially me, having any idea what it would require or "how" to do it.
We have done it for three years now, and while not all of it has been smooth sailing, most of it has been fine.
I guess over the last year, things have gotten harder. I began to question his relationship with his wife, and as I know now, did not give it a place of value, since it did not meet my standards for a "real" marriage. I am beginning to understand that there are all kinds, and that for whatever reason, some things are really important to the people involved, and just because I do not see it that way, does not negate the importance of it.
I do have duties around the house. I do not do everything. I do mostly the kitchen and ironing, with occasional cooking. I do a significant amount of secretarial work for the hinge, for which I get a small wage. It is to show that I have a job here, and so that I can have some money of my own. It comes out to about $500 a month, not enough to live on independently.
I have tried to learn the language. I have taken several online courses, and one class here where they taught the class in the language. It was very difficult for me to follow. I take many meds that sometimes make me foggy. I have both fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome, and both of them make my head unclear at times. I graduated from my nursing class with a 4.0 GPA. I am not a dumb person. But as I have gotten older, the brain fog makes it so hard to really learn anything. It just seems like things will not stick in my head! It is very frustrating.
As far as getting out and finding a job of my own-- it would be almost impossible. First and foremost is the language barrier. No one is going to hire you unless you are fluent. That could take years, in my case. Aside from that, you will just have to trust me (I don't have time to go into the way the employment system works here), you cannot just go to the classifieds and start looking for work. They have a very definite system that starts with a person in high school, and it goes on for several years before a place will hire you. It is very hard to just go "job hunting" and come back with several prospects.
I hope that answers a few questions that people have had.
Now for new news. Last night, he and I went for a walk and ended up with the same conclusion, that it was just not working. I had decided I was going to leave. So I went inside and told her that I was leaving, that I just could not go on like this, that I was sorry. I thought that I could, but was mistaken. She was upset and so we had a "come to Jesus" meeting. She talked about things she was not happy with, and I shared my concerns, as well. I told her all the "secrets" that I felt had been between us from the beginning. So now she knows it all. We talked and cried and went to bed without resolving anything.
This morning we tried again, and had better results. We agreed that we would divide the house.
She stated that she did not want to have sex with him, so that him having sex with only me could stay that way, and it was fine for her.
We talked about dividing up the suppertime and sleeping time, that he would eat and sleep with me half the time, and the other half with her. That was something that neither of us were really happy with. She wanted him to eat with her every day. I wanted him to sleep with me every night.
So we agreed that he would eat with her every day, with some minor exceptions, and would spend some time with her each evening, just talking to her alone, without me around, so that they could converse in their native tongue.
At the end of their time together, he would come to my side of the house and sleep with me.
We also agreed that I could have and wear a ring. We discussed how, at some point in time, it might become necessary for him to marry me, mainly to keep me in the country. He told us that as far as he was concerned, he was married to us both, and that he would just as soon not be legally married to either one of us. But he is married and so that's ok. But that as far as he was concerned, it made absolutely no difference. She was upset about that for a while, but he went to talk to her and comfort her, and then she was fine with it.
It could take at least a year to make all the arrangements that we will need to "separate" the house, so we agreed until then, to just continue as we have been.
I am happy. I am pleased. I am willing to try this again. It has given me hope. I cannot wait to start decorating the house, and make it a nice little home for the two of us. I am glad that it is right next door so that he can go see the kids at anytime and we can still have group meals together on occasion and be in touch with the family, while still having the privacy that I am craving.
Do I still want him to marry me? Of course. But I know that it cannot be. I love him dearly. I want to spend the rest of my life with him. I cannot fathom living without him. And so I am willing to live with him and his wife and kids, as long as I can have some privacy of my own.
So, here we go. Wish us luck!
To those of you who were nice and kind, offering suggestions and books/articles to read, THANK YOU!! I will still read them. I am going to find a counselor here that can help me, as well.
At least I have hope. That is all I need. That is what I was looking for... hope. It feels so good to have a glimmer of it!!
This is the first attempt at poly for all of us. No one in the relationship has ever been poly before, or ever really considered it, although they are much more open-minded about things in general, here in Germany. But when the hinge in the relationship found me, we fell deeply in love and wanted to be together badly, yet he could not give up his kids and wife, so poly became a viable option at that time. We all agreed to enter into it with none of us, especially me, having any idea what it would require or "how" to do it.
We have done it for three years now, and while not all of it has been smooth sailing, most of it has been fine.
I guess over the last year, things have gotten harder. I began to question his relationship with his wife, and as I know now, did not give it a place of value, since it did not meet my standards for a "real" marriage. I am beginning to understand that there are all kinds, and that for whatever reason, some things are really important to the people involved, and just because I do not see it that way, does not negate the importance of it.
I do have duties around the house. I do not do everything. I do mostly the kitchen and ironing, with occasional cooking. I do a significant amount of secretarial work for the hinge, for which I get a small wage. It is to show that I have a job here, and so that I can have some money of my own. It comes out to about $500 a month, not enough to live on independently.
I have tried to learn the language. I have taken several online courses, and one class here where they taught the class in the language. It was very difficult for me to follow. I take many meds that sometimes make me foggy. I have both fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome, and both of them make my head unclear at times. I graduated from my nursing class with a 4.0 GPA. I am not a dumb person. But as I have gotten older, the brain fog makes it so hard to really learn anything. It just seems like things will not stick in my head! It is very frustrating.
As far as getting out and finding a job of my own-- it would be almost impossible. First and foremost is the language barrier. No one is going to hire you unless you are fluent. That could take years, in my case. Aside from that, you will just have to trust me (I don't have time to go into the way the employment system works here), you cannot just go to the classifieds and start looking for work. They have a very definite system that starts with a person in high school, and it goes on for several years before a place will hire you. It is very hard to just go "job hunting" and come back with several prospects.
I hope that answers a few questions that people have had.
Now for new news. Last night, he and I went for a walk and ended up with the same conclusion, that it was just not working. I had decided I was going to leave. So I went inside and told her that I was leaving, that I just could not go on like this, that I was sorry. I thought that I could, but was mistaken. She was upset and so we had a "come to Jesus" meeting. She talked about things she was not happy with, and I shared my concerns, as well. I told her all the "secrets" that I felt had been between us from the beginning. So now she knows it all. We talked and cried and went to bed without resolving anything.
This morning we tried again, and had better results. We agreed that we would divide the house.
She stated that she did not want to have sex with him, so that him having sex with only me could stay that way, and it was fine for her.
We talked about dividing up the suppertime and sleeping time, that he would eat and sleep with me half the time, and the other half with her. That was something that neither of us were really happy with. She wanted him to eat with her every day. I wanted him to sleep with me every night.
So we agreed that he would eat with her every day, with some minor exceptions, and would spend some time with her each evening, just talking to her alone, without me around, so that they could converse in their native tongue.
At the end of their time together, he would come to my side of the house and sleep with me.
We also agreed that I could have and wear a ring. We discussed how, at some point in time, it might become necessary for him to marry me, mainly to keep me in the country. He told us that as far as he was concerned, he was married to us both, and that he would just as soon not be legally married to either one of us. But he is married and so that's ok. But that as far as he was concerned, it made absolutely no difference. She was upset about that for a while, but he went to talk to her and comfort her, and then she was fine with it.
It could take at least a year to make all the arrangements that we will need to "separate" the house, so we agreed until then, to just continue as we have been.
I am happy. I am pleased. I am willing to try this again. It has given me hope. I cannot wait to start decorating the house, and make it a nice little home for the two of us. I am glad that it is right next door so that he can go see the kids at anytime and we can still have group meals together on occasion and be in touch with the family, while still having the privacy that I am craving.
Do I still want him to marry me? Of course. But I know that it cannot be. I love him dearly. I want to spend the rest of my life with him. I cannot fathom living without him. And so I am willing to live with him and his wife and kids, as long as I can have some privacy of my own.
So, here we go. Wish us luck!
To those of you who were nice and kind, offering suggestions and books/articles to read, THANK YOU!! I will still read them. I am going to find a counselor here that can help me, as well.
At least I have hope. That is all I need. That is what I was looking for... hope. It feels so good to have a glimmer of it!!
LovingRadiance
Active member
Check out Love Without Limits by Deborah Anapol. I found some things in there helpful.
I hope that you gleaned from this last episode that you and she discussing needs is better than using him as a go-between.
I hope that you gleaned from this last episode that you and she discussing needs is better than using him as a go-between.
I am glad to be wrong. I hope things work out for you in your V, with improved communication and expectations to minimize triangulation.
But please consider doing something about the language barrier, and the job thing, so you are financially independent and have some finances only in your name.
Ask for help to remove these hindrances that keep you dependent.
Rings, commitment ceremonies, and celebrations can be lovely, and spiritually fulfilling, but legal standing is another thing. I am ignorant of German law. If he gets run over by a bus, what provisions are in place for his poly family?
You are all responsible for your own emergency preparedness. You could make that plan too, while you are reorganizing within the V.
But please consider doing something about the language barrier, and the job thing, so you are financially independent and have some finances only in your name.
Ask for help to remove these hindrances that keep you dependent.
Rings, commitment ceremonies, and celebrations can be lovely, and spiritually fulfilling, but legal standing is another thing. I am ignorant of German law. If he gets run over by a bus, what provisions are in place for his poly family?
You are all responsible for your own emergency preparedness. You could make that plan too, while you are reorganizing within the V.
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IndieSolo
Active member
Perhaps you can find work at the American Embassy or a school for US expats. There is usually a community of American expats in almost every country, and they sometimes even have their own websites, newspapers, blogs, and meetings where English is spoken. I just did a little googling around and found this: http://www.internations.org/germany-expats/americans. Network with others who have relocated there!
Dagferi
Well-known member
Bigamy is illegal in all European Union countries. My boss is German, so I asked him.
I find it hard to believe that you are having a hard time being immersed in the language after three years. I have been working for my boss since February as his personal assistant. Even though he lives in the US, his band mates are German, and they all do not speak English.
I do not speak the language well yet. I understand more and more every day from having to work. 56% of Germans can speak English. Also, with smart phones, you can have your phone speak for you. For conversations, I speak into my cell phone, and it will repeat what I said in German. They will do the same. The guys drag me around and explain things in German, and I do the same in English.
I find it hard to believe that you are having a hard time being immersed in the language after three years. I have been working for my boss since February as his personal assistant. Even though he lives in the US, his band mates are German, and they all do not speak English.
I do not speak the language well yet. I understand more and more every day from having to work. 56% of Germans can speak English. Also, with smart phones, you can have your phone speak for you. For conversations, I speak into my cell phone, and it will repeat what I said in German. They will do the same. The guys drag me around and explain things in German, and I do the same in English.
Yes, I am upset as to why I am having trouble with the language, as well. I am fluent in Spanish. I thought that it would not be that difficult to learn German. But for some reason, things are just not sticking. Words that I will learn one day are gone the next. It is like I have to start over every day.
But then again, I also am having trouble with English words. Everyday words that I know and use frequently are just gone. I have to think and think before I can remember them. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. Most of the time I can tell you the first letter of the word and what it means, and then together we can figure it out.
As I have said before, I have several illnesses and I take a lot of medication for them. I have seen my regular doc, a pain management doc, a neurologist, a urologist, an endocrinologist, a nutritionist, a rheumatologist and a dermatologist. In the past, I have seen gastroenterologists and internists, as well. I have had physical therapy, acupuncture, chiropractic and many different types of shots into my spine and facial area.
I don't think you are really interested in all of my medical history. It is long and complicated and a constant drain. There are many days, especially when I am under great stress, that I almost literally cannot walk and will have to stay in bed all day. I do not have just ONE major ailment...I have MULTIPLE systemic problems.
Yes, my cell phone helps a lot, although the translation is sketchy at best. And although English is taught in the schools here, I have found that only about 20 percent of the people speak it in any capacity.
I have a really hard time finding docs. Of course, they all say they speak English. It is part of their educational program. But trust me, they don't. I am fortunate that my GP is really good at it, so she can usually direct me where to go. But in an area that had over 100 hits for psychologists I was given a list of about 4 that were willing to treat someone in English. I do not qualify for most of the "spas" or "rehabs," as they like to call them, because they cannot accommodate an English speaker. We did finally find ONE that was willing to take me, and it was several hours away.
I was in the hospital for 10 days last year and it was a nightmare. They do not have private rooms. We had 4 women in our one tiny room, with one bathroom and one TV. No one spoke English until the very end. On day 8 of my stay, a little old woman came in and spoke it well enough that I finally had someone to talk to.
I had one surgeon that spoke it well enough to let me know what was going on. She spoke for all the rest and did her best to keep me informed. Taking x-rays was a nightmare, because I did not know if they were telling me to breath or to let it out. I was never sure.
Ordering food was impossible. They came around and asked you what you wanted from a list of many foods. Of course, not one of them spoke English, and I could not understand what they were saying. Many times, if something is written down I can understand it better, but the menu was not written, it was spoken. Wo I just kinda had to take whatever they gave me, until the little old lady came along and then she would help me. It was a HORRIBLE ordeal.
They brought the wrong meds to me on several occasions, and I had to sit there and argue with them in English, trying to make them understand that my medication was not right. Usually after getting several different people to try to understand me, they would bring me the correct medication. There was one nurse's aid out of everyone on every shift that spoke English. Thank GOD for her, or I would have been screwed.
I am sorry that I have not learned it in what you seem to think is a timely manner. I am happy that you are not having such a difficult time. But I HAVE tried and am STILL trying. I have tried 3 different online courses, and a course at the "folks school" here. I know many words, but have a REALLY hard time putting them together. I did fairly well in the class until we got to "verb klammers," where they put part of the verb at the beginning of the sentence, and then the rest at the end of the sentence, and then I was blown away. I became ill with the flu shortly thereafter and missed the last 3 sessions of the class. It was terrible.
When I learned Spanish is was in highschool, a very traditional way of learning, and I did well. But here it is more the new way of teaching, more by rote, and I just do not do well with that. Factor in that they teach German in German, and I am not even able to ask a question, because all I know is English, and it just does not do well. The Volkhochschule was an hour away, 3 hours a day for 3 days a week. So it was a 5-hour slot of time, 3 days a week. The stress of the setting triggered my migraines. It was not unusual to come home and have to take a shot and go to bed.
My illnesses make it impossible for me to hold down a job. I was fired from the last 3 I had in the States. Brain fog was a lot of the problem.
I was a good nurse prior to all this. I have worked in hospitals, clinics, home health and nursing homes with both pediatric and geriatric patients. I have delivered babies. I have worked in ICU. I have assisted in C-sections.
I used to be a normal productive human being. I was the primary breadwinner in the family for 16 years.
I have managed programs, written grants, kept up with budgets, did public speaking, gave over 5000 immunizations in one year as I managed the program that provided them. I have managed 30 employees at a time, including hiring, firing and scheduling.
But I cannot do those things now. I just can't. And even if I could do them, my degree in the States would not transfer here. They have a totally different way of education.
If I were to go back to the States, I would have to file for disability. I simply cannot hold down a job. I do not know from one day to the next what I will wake up like. If you have never had an illness like that, it is really hard to understand the devastation that it can have in your life. This is why I was seeing a therapist to begin with, to try to deal with the chronic pain issues and the depression that usually accompanies that.
I know that no one is interested in all my history. I only bring it up to say that yeah, I have tried. I am still trying. I hope to be able to speak German someday. I am sorry I cannot pick it up as quickly as you can.
But then again, I also am having trouble with English words. Everyday words that I know and use frequently are just gone. I have to think and think before I can remember them. Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. Most of the time I can tell you the first letter of the word and what it means, and then together we can figure it out.
As I have said before, I have several illnesses and I take a lot of medication for them. I have seen my regular doc, a pain management doc, a neurologist, a urologist, an endocrinologist, a nutritionist, a rheumatologist and a dermatologist. In the past, I have seen gastroenterologists and internists, as well. I have had physical therapy, acupuncture, chiropractic and many different types of shots into my spine and facial area.
I don't think you are really interested in all of my medical history. It is long and complicated and a constant drain. There are many days, especially when I am under great stress, that I almost literally cannot walk and will have to stay in bed all day. I do not have just ONE major ailment...I have MULTIPLE systemic problems.
Yes, my cell phone helps a lot, although the translation is sketchy at best. And although English is taught in the schools here, I have found that only about 20 percent of the people speak it in any capacity.
I have a really hard time finding docs. Of course, they all say they speak English. It is part of their educational program. But trust me, they don't. I am fortunate that my GP is really good at it, so she can usually direct me where to go. But in an area that had over 100 hits for psychologists I was given a list of about 4 that were willing to treat someone in English. I do not qualify for most of the "spas" or "rehabs," as they like to call them, because they cannot accommodate an English speaker. We did finally find ONE that was willing to take me, and it was several hours away.
I was in the hospital for 10 days last year and it was a nightmare. They do not have private rooms. We had 4 women in our one tiny room, with one bathroom and one TV. No one spoke English until the very end. On day 8 of my stay, a little old woman came in and spoke it well enough that I finally had someone to talk to.
I had one surgeon that spoke it well enough to let me know what was going on. She spoke for all the rest and did her best to keep me informed. Taking x-rays was a nightmare, because I did not know if they were telling me to breath or to let it out. I was never sure.
Ordering food was impossible. They came around and asked you what you wanted from a list of many foods. Of course, not one of them spoke English, and I could not understand what they were saying. Many times, if something is written down I can understand it better, but the menu was not written, it was spoken. Wo I just kinda had to take whatever they gave me, until the little old lady came along and then she would help me. It was a HORRIBLE ordeal.
They brought the wrong meds to me on several occasions, and I had to sit there and argue with them in English, trying to make them understand that my medication was not right. Usually after getting several different people to try to understand me, they would bring me the correct medication. There was one nurse's aid out of everyone on every shift that spoke English. Thank GOD for her, or I would have been screwed.
I am sorry that I have not learned it in what you seem to think is a timely manner. I am happy that you are not having such a difficult time. But I HAVE tried and am STILL trying. I have tried 3 different online courses, and a course at the "folks school" here. I know many words, but have a REALLY hard time putting them together. I did fairly well in the class until we got to "verb klammers," where they put part of the verb at the beginning of the sentence, and then the rest at the end of the sentence, and then I was blown away. I became ill with the flu shortly thereafter and missed the last 3 sessions of the class. It was terrible.
When I learned Spanish is was in highschool, a very traditional way of learning, and I did well. But here it is more the new way of teaching, more by rote, and I just do not do well with that. Factor in that they teach German in German, and I am not even able to ask a question, because all I know is English, and it just does not do well. The Volkhochschule was an hour away, 3 hours a day for 3 days a week. So it was a 5-hour slot of time, 3 days a week. The stress of the setting triggered my migraines. It was not unusual to come home and have to take a shot and go to bed.
My illnesses make it impossible for me to hold down a job. I was fired from the last 3 I had in the States. Brain fog was a lot of the problem.
I was a good nurse prior to all this. I have worked in hospitals, clinics, home health and nursing homes with both pediatric and geriatric patients. I have delivered babies. I have worked in ICU. I have assisted in C-sections.
I used to be a normal productive human being. I was the primary breadwinner in the family for 16 years.
I have managed programs, written grants, kept up with budgets, did public speaking, gave over 5000 immunizations in one year as I managed the program that provided them. I have managed 30 employees at a time, including hiring, firing and scheduling.
But I cannot do those things now. I just can't. And even if I could do them, my degree in the States would not transfer here. They have a totally different way of education.
If I were to go back to the States, I would have to file for disability. I simply cannot hold down a job. I do not know from one day to the next what I will wake up like. If you have never had an illness like that, it is really hard to understand the devastation that it can have in your life. This is why I was seeing a therapist to begin with, to try to deal with the chronic pain issues and the depression that usually accompanies that.
I know that no one is interested in all my history. I only bring it up to say that yeah, I have tried. I am still trying. I hope to be able to speak German someday. I am sorry I cannot pick it up as quickly as you can.
And yes, I know that bigamy is illegal in Europe. I am not sure what that has to do with anything, as he is only legally married to his wife. My partner works in the German legal system, so he knows all about it. I was never asking him to marry me too. I wanted him to divorce her and marry me.
I am NO LONGER asking for that. So before I get shredded to pieces for being a cowgirl, please take the time to read the earlier posts and see that we have worked out an arrangement that I am willing to live with.
I am NO LONGER asking for that. So before I get shredded to pieces for being a cowgirl, please take the time to read the earlier posts and see that we have worked out an arrangement that I am willing to live with.
Galagirl, that has been one of my considerations in asking him to marry me. I feel that in the event that he should die, that I will be left out in the cold. He has made a paper that states that I am to be allowed to live in the home as long as I want, or until I die. It has not been notarized or anything like that, but he SAYS that it would be binding in the event that he should die. He says that THAT is the best he can do for me. I worry that it would not be legally binding and that even if it had SOME kind of legal binding, his in-laws would fight tooth and nail to see to it that I will get nothing.
There is no kind of financial provision for me. He says that he cannot do that. So while I would have a place to live, I will not have any way to live. His wife and kids will be taken care of.
Once again, when I asked him to marry me, this was one of the reasons why. His children will get their inheritance. I certainly would not kick anyone to the curb. I too would be happy to have them live out the rest of the years in this house.
But his wife will have the support of her family (who have asked her to move in with them already). She would be taken care of, and if worse came to worse, she is young and healthy and can work.
I would be here, unable to hold down a job, and so would not be able to stay in the country anyway.
According to German law, you have to have a job and not be a burden to the system to stay here if you are not married. On paper, I work as household help for him and his wife. I get "paid" about $500 a month and am allowed to live in their home. If I were married, the issue of a job would not matter. I could stay in the country as a spouse or a widow. If he dies and we are not married, then I will no longer have a "job" and will be unable to get a "real job" and unable to file for social welfare.
So I guess it does not matter. If he dies, I will simply have to leave my life here, go back to the States, live with my kids and file for disability. I cannot make him see anything otherwise. If we were married, I would be able to stay in the country as his widow, and I am assuming would be able to file for social welfare if I could not work. But as his "lover," for lack of a better word, I would have no rights and nothing to fall back on. I would be screwed.
The only bright light in that scenario is that I will probably die before he does and it will be a moot point. Otherwise, I will be unprotected, again making me like I am less of a partner in the relationship. She would naturally be taken care of, as would his children.
I cannot help but feel that my welfare is of less importance to him. We all know that the probability is that he will outlive me. But there is a possibility that he will not. In that event, the only provision that has been made is a piece of paper that says I can live in their house until I die. He says that is the best he can do for me.
There is no kind of financial provision for me. He says that he cannot do that. So while I would have a place to live, I will not have any way to live. His wife and kids will be taken care of.
Once again, when I asked him to marry me, this was one of the reasons why. His children will get their inheritance. I certainly would not kick anyone to the curb. I too would be happy to have them live out the rest of the years in this house.
But his wife will have the support of her family (who have asked her to move in with them already). She would be taken care of, and if worse came to worse, she is young and healthy and can work.
I would be here, unable to hold down a job, and so would not be able to stay in the country anyway.
According to German law, you have to have a job and not be a burden to the system to stay here if you are not married. On paper, I work as household help for him and his wife. I get "paid" about $500 a month and am allowed to live in their home. If I were married, the issue of a job would not matter. I could stay in the country as a spouse or a widow. If he dies and we are not married, then I will no longer have a "job" and will be unable to get a "real job" and unable to file for social welfare.
So I guess it does not matter. If he dies, I will simply have to leave my life here, go back to the States, live with my kids and file for disability. I cannot make him see anything otherwise. If we were married, I would be able to stay in the country as his widow, and I am assuming would be able to file for social welfare if I could not work. But as his "lover," for lack of a better word, I would have no rights and nothing to fall back on. I would be screwed.
The only bright light in that scenario is that I will probably die before he does and it will be a moot point. Otherwise, I will be unprotected, again making me like I am less of a partner in the relationship. She would naturally be taken care of, as would his children.
I cannot help but feel that my welfare is of less importance to him. We all know that the probability is that he will outlive me. But there is a possibility that he will not. In that event, the only provision that has been made is a piece of paper that says I can live in their house until I die. He says that is the best he can do for me.
nancyfore
Member
You say that it does not matter any longer that he won't divorce his wife and marry you; then you say you feel less important to him because he won't divorce his wife and marry you.
Why would you stay in Germany if he died? What would be left there anyway? Your kids and grandkids are in the States. So if he died, why not come home and get a job or disability and see your children?
Speaking from a wife's point of view (with my husband in the background mirroring my thoughts) you seriously sound selfish. Your only thoughts are about yourself, and getting his survivor benefits and his house, while his wife can just go her merry way.
Nancyfore, I was simply replying to GalaGirl's question as to what provisions were in place for his poly family, of which I am a part.
I would want to stay because he would be here. Yes, I know he is not here. But I would want to be near where he was. And he has said that if I should die, that he would want me to be buried here in Germany for the exact same reason.
It is not that I do not want his family to be provided for. I would just like to be provided for, as well. I don't think that is unreasonable or selfish. We all need to prepare for the future as best as possible. Most of the time that happens through spousal support.
It seems like no matter what I say or do here, that there is someone to criticize me and tell me how horrible I am. I came here for help, and I am trying to resolve this. I realize that I am a selfish bitch. But I am trying to do something that no one else that *I* know would even attempt. You may be used to it and it may come naturally to you, but it is not that way for everyone.
So, excuse me if I am having a hard time fitting into your world. It is starting more and more to sound like a place where only you and the ones like you are accepted. You are no different from the very people that you criticize the most.
I am confused. I obviously don't have it all figured out. Instead of telling me how selfish and horrible I am, how about giving me some advice on how I can accept the situation I am in? Others in here have been so kind. I need the advice. I sure as hell am not going to be able to find it in a mono group.
I feel like there is an "us against them" attitude with many here. I obviously am "them," although I have lived this life for 3 years and am still trying to make it work. Poly does not come naturally to me. I am beginning to wonder if it does for some and not for others. IDK. But I am trying to understand it and learn the concepts involved, and yes, that includes being less selfish.
I would want to stay because he would be here. Yes, I know he is not here. But I would want to be near where he was. And he has said that if I should die, that he would want me to be buried here in Germany for the exact same reason.
It is not that I do not want his family to be provided for. I would just like to be provided for, as well. I don't think that is unreasonable or selfish. We all need to prepare for the future as best as possible. Most of the time that happens through spousal support.
It seems like no matter what I say or do here, that there is someone to criticize me and tell me how horrible I am. I came here for help, and I am trying to resolve this. I realize that I am a selfish bitch. But I am trying to do something that no one else that *I* know would even attempt. You may be used to it and it may come naturally to you, but it is not that way for everyone.
So, excuse me if I am having a hard time fitting into your world. It is starting more and more to sound like a place where only you and the ones like you are accepted. You are no different from the very people that you criticize the most.
I am confused. I obviously don't have it all figured out. Instead of telling me how selfish and horrible I am, how about giving me some advice on how I can accept the situation I am in? Others in here have been so kind. I need the advice. I sure as hell am not going to be able to find it in a mono group.
I feel like there is an "us against them" attitude with many here. I obviously am "them," although I have lived this life for 3 years and am still trying to make it work. Poly does not come naturally to me. I am beginning to wonder if it does for some and not for others. IDK. But I am trying to understand it and learn the concepts involved, and yes, that includes being less selfish.
FullofLove1052
New member
I am not judging you. That is not my cup of tea, and my name is not God, Buddha, Allah, or any other religious being people worship.
Your partner has told you what he can offer you. I am not that familiar with German law, but if it is anything like some of the laws where I live, then I have an idea. Does he have a will? If he has no will, it will automatically be given to his wife/children first and go down the line of kin, if that was not the case. A handwritten will that has been signed by him, who would be the deceased party, would have legal standing. The problem with something handwritten and not on public record or notarial is that someone can "accidentally" get rid of it. With a public will, it stays with the notary. It must be written in his handwriting entirely (not typed; language does not matter), signed, dated, and the time must be on it. If he is giving you access to property and he does not have the legal right to do so, it might be thrown out. I would not trust something that is not on public record.
I realise you say that no you no longer want him to marry you, but trusting that in the event of his death, his wife would let you stay in their marital home is a way to get your feelings hurt and get you put out. She might be tolerating you now, but there may no holds barred during a time of grief.
When my neighbour's father died, she put his fiancée out of the house and moved in with her husband and children. He did not have her on the will, and there was nothing to stop her from doing that. She was the beneficiary since her mother had passed.
Speaking as a wife, it would bother me if my husband was poly and had a girlfriend that wanted him to not only divorce me, but change estate papers, make her the beneficiary, and make it so that she could stay in my home and allow me and my children access if we so desired. That would be biting the hand that fed me and a bitch slap in the face. Being granted "permission" to stay in my home if my ex-husband were to die? Wow. I cannot even wrap my head around that. Even if their marriage is loveless, sexless, in name only... that is still asking or wanting too much. They opened their home to you. He has agreed to a handwritten will to enable you to stay in the house. He wants to insure his widow and children would be taken care of financially. That is the honourable thing to do. I have no idea why he has not offered to include you in the will. I have been to will readings where people bequeathed the maid a sum of money for every year of service. I have been to will readings where the dog was left financially secure. He could add you if he wanted to.
Maybe his wife does not want that and would not sign anything like that. Something is keeping them in that marriage. You seem to be forgetting about the children they have when you speak of what you want. You have children, but when you divorced your ex-husband, I would imagine your children were adults. Divorce hurts children and can impact them. They are used to having both parents there, and while he might not be the most affectionate towards them, he is still there and an important part of their lives.
My advice: you need your own place, and you need to learn the language. I know there have to be some English-speaking jobs/careers. If not, tourists would be forced to learn the language in order to visit. I was in Berlin, and I am not fluent in the language. I remember seeing a job posting that specifically sought people whose first language was English or were fluent in it. That would require you to step out of the comfort zone of their home and stop relying upon them so much.
I know you needed to get away from the situation you were in, but it has been three years of the same. It is past time to step it up. I have no doubt the job system is a hard one to crack into. Politics is the way to explain that. That can be anywhere, but people get in some kind of way. I highly doubt that students who relocate from the States and other countries never find employment while they are attending university or study abroad programs. Someone is willing to hire them, and someone is probably willing to hire you. NYCindie gave you a link. Check it out.
God forbid, but something could happen today that would cause him to be on life support. His wife would have the right to take him off life support, and there is nothing you can do. What would you do then? You are too dependent upon him/them. It is not his job to take care of you and make sure that you are taken care of in the event of his demise.
I am proudly independent. If my husband leaves or passes away, I would still be able to run my household, maintain my lifestyle, and my children would have nothing to worry about. I like having that cushion and knowing that if something happens, I can take care of myself and my children. That is not to say that we do not have wills and all estate papers in order. We have life insurance, too. It is there if I were to ever need it, but I like knowing that I can survive without it. That is kind of we chose to do things. Not everyone agrees with my mentality of loving being independent.
We are all offering you different ways to approach this. He is not leaving his wife for you, and if he did, that would not be poly. Polyamorists do not generally take sides and get roped in by the other lovers. If you want a tip, learn the art of compromise and stop saying "I." I want this. I want that." What about what he wants? What about what those children want? What about what his wife wants? Put yourself in her shoes and stop thinking about yourself for a minute. "I opened my home to my husband's other woman, and she is trying to come in and be the queen of the castle, beneficiary to his estate, and step-mum to my children by asking him to divorce me and marry her. She wants to take my place." That is not ethical. It is self-serving, and you are validating the mono spouse's fears when entering a situation like this.
Ry
Your partner has told you what he can offer you. I am not that familiar with German law, but if it is anything like some of the laws where I live, then I have an idea. Does he have a will? If he has no will, it will automatically be given to his wife/children first and go down the line of kin, if that was not the case. A handwritten will that has been signed by him, who would be the deceased party, would have legal standing. The problem with something handwritten and not on public record or notarial is that someone can "accidentally" get rid of it. With a public will, it stays with the notary. It must be written in his handwriting entirely (not typed; language does not matter), signed, dated, and the time must be on it. If he is giving you access to property and he does not have the legal right to do so, it might be thrown out. I would not trust something that is not on public record.
I realise you say that no you no longer want him to marry you, but trusting that in the event of his death, his wife would let you stay in their marital home is a way to get your feelings hurt and get you put out. She might be tolerating you now, but there may no holds barred during a time of grief.
When my neighbour's father died, she put his fiancée out of the house and moved in with her husband and children. He did not have her on the will, and there was nothing to stop her from doing that. She was the beneficiary since her mother had passed.
Speaking as a wife, it would bother me if my husband was poly and had a girlfriend that wanted him to not only divorce me, but change estate papers, make her the beneficiary, and make it so that she could stay in my home and allow me and my children access if we so desired. That would be biting the hand that fed me and a bitch slap in the face. Being granted "permission" to stay in my home if my ex-husband were to die? Wow. I cannot even wrap my head around that. Even if their marriage is loveless, sexless, in name only... that is still asking or wanting too much. They opened their home to you. He has agreed to a handwritten will to enable you to stay in the house. He wants to insure his widow and children would be taken care of financially. That is the honourable thing to do. I have no idea why he has not offered to include you in the will. I have been to will readings where people bequeathed the maid a sum of money for every year of service. I have been to will readings where the dog was left financially secure. He could add you if he wanted to.
Maybe his wife does not want that and would not sign anything like that. Something is keeping them in that marriage. You seem to be forgetting about the children they have when you speak of what you want. You have children, but when you divorced your ex-husband, I would imagine your children were adults. Divorce hurts children and can impact them. They are used to having both parents there, and while he might not be the most affectionate towards them, he is still there and an important part of their lives.
My advice: you need your own place, and you need to learn the language. I know there have to be some English-speaking jobs/careers. If not, tourists would be forced to learn the language in order to visit. I was in Berlin, and I am not fluent in the language. I remember seeing a job posting that specifically sought people whose first language was English or were fluent in it. That would require you to step out of the comfort zone of their home and stop relying upon them so much.
I know you needed to get away from the situation you were in, but it has been three years of the same. It is past time to step it up. I have no doubt the job system is a hard one to crack into. Politics is the way to explain that. That can be anywhere, but people get in some kind of way. I highly doubt that students who relocate from the States and other countries never find employment while they are attending university or study abroad programs. Someone is willing to hire them, and someone is probably willing to hire you. NYCindie gave you a link. Check it out.
God forbid, but something could happen today that would cause him to be on life support. His wife would have the right to take him off life support, and there is nothing you can do. What would you do then? You are too dependent upon him/them. It is not his job to take care of you and make sure that you are taken care of in the event of his demise.
I am proudly independent. If my husband leaves or passes away, I would still be able to run my household, maintain my lifestyle, and my children would have nothing to worry about. I like having that cushion and knowing that if something happens, I can take care of myself and my children. That is not to say that we do not have wills and all estate papers in order. We have life insurance, too. It is there if I were to ever need it, but I like knowing that I can survive without it. That is kind of we chose to do things. Not everyone agrees with my mentality of loving being independent.
We are all offering you different ways to approach this. He is not leaving his wife for you, and if he did, that would not be poly. Polyamorists do not generally take sides and get roped in by the other lovers. If you want a tip, learn the art of compromise and stop saying "I." I want this. I want that." What about what he wants? What about what those children want? What about what his wife wants? Put yourself in her shoes and stop thinking about yourself for a minute. "I opened my home to my husband's other woman, and she is trying to come in and be the queen of the castle, beneficiary to his estate, and step-mum to my children by asking him to divorce me and marry her. She wants to take my place." That is not ethical. It is self-serving, and you are validating the mono spouse's fears when entering a situation like this.
Ry
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