First time open relationship, could use some advice

[RichardD]

Hello all,

I've been reading a lot of the posts here, taking in a lot of what you're all saying, and got some good ideas from them. Finally decided to sit down and get my thoughts on digital paper and wanted to see if my logic makes any sense.

[backstory]... skip if you wish:
To be honest, I wasn't looking for a girlfriend at the time, but it wasn't difficult to see that (we'll call her) Mary had an attraction to me, and we were spending a lot of time together, so I literally said "fuck it" and kissed her, which sparked some good times in the two years to come.

For the duration of that, we were good friends that hung out and "hung out," and I was rapidly spending more and more of my time at her apartment. She was helping me with some of my life problems (like finding a job at the time, and starting a business since then) and I was helping her with some of hers (like tolerating her job and some family stuff). Pretty early on though, I was pretty sure I wanted more than just a friends with benefits from her, and she resisted for quite a long while. Recently, she said that obviously this is relatively long-term since we've been together for 2 years, and she'd be my girlfriend, which is what I wanted. But of course, relationships aren't meant to be easy, so we have to flush some things out. I really want to make things work with her and see where it goes. I believe that she still has some reservations about it, but is willing to work to figure them out. I'm not interested in moving in, marriage, or children in the near future and she feels the same way. I do want her to be a strong figure in my life and me to be the same in hers. And I believe she feels the same way again

[/backstory]Now her job is kicking her ass more than ever and she's seriously looking for a new job. I'm going through some pretty big changes with the business myself. One of my fears is that we will be lost in the changes and drift apart. When I told her about this, she said that she had thought of that herself and doesn't want us to drift apart either. So, we're starting to set up some rules for our open relationship, and I could use some advice. Really, it's me that needs them, as I think she'd be fine with simply trusting me and vice versa. I feel as though she can find another partner rather passively, whereas I have to actively look for one. Kinda like she's "ahead" of me, bad as that sounds. Most of the people I know would not be comfortable doing things with someone in a committed relationship, and most of hers are alright with it. That said, I have a feeling that I'd be very comfortable with us talking about our recent sexual adventures together and laughing about them over dinner, but at the moment it's very lopsided, and I don't have a solid answer to that.

Which brings me to the real reason for this thread: to get peoples' thoughts on some proposed rules
- Kissing, touching above the belt, hand on legs or butt is fine, but keep an eye out for cold sores and the ilk. Then talk with the SO about it afterward.
- Nothing genital or anal unless the other person has met them and given their stamp of approval (SoA), and always with a condom.
- If you do something genital or anal with an SoA person, within a couple of days, take the SO out on a nice date and spend the afternoon with them. Perhaps something sexy as well

At the moment, she's got a guy friend (whom I've met and like) and a mutual girl friend of ours on the list (again, I know and like), whereas I'm looking around for someone for mine. I'm new to this world, so it'll take me some time to hone my approach while still conveying to prospective others that I have a girlfriend. Yes, I also realize that's probably stunting my progress, but I wouldn't feel comfortable unless I told a girl I was trying to get with first.

Any thoughts? I know there's a lot there, but it kinda felt good to get that all writ down.

 

[SlowPoly]

t'll take me some time to hone my approach while still conveying to prospective others that I have a girlfriend. Yes, I also realize that's probably stunting my progress, but I wouldn't feel comfortable unless I told a girl I was trying to get with first.

A great example of having a plan to treat the unknown others as people.

Which brings me to the real reason for this thread: to get peoples' thoughts on some proposed rules

My thoughts are these:

What is the purpose of each rule? Vigilance about Sexually transmitted infections? Awesome. Can we not be trusted to be vigilant without the specific rule about where we can touch and what we should be looking for? "Condoms, always" is a standard specific, with definite, universal benefits.

What is the function of a SoA? What are the acceptable bases for denial? Is it really fair to a potential partner to subject him/her to the scrutiny of someone with whom they do not expect to be involved? Not in my world. I'm not trying to say "Yer doin' it wrong!", but this is my immediate thought on this rule, as you requested. It feels arbitrarily controlling.

Why the "tit-for-tat" that genital/anal gets a balancing date with bonus sexy time? Contrived, even ritual interaction with an intimate is so not sexy to me. But maybe it works really well for you two. Is there a way to make this less codified, less tied to other relationships, and more about the generic need you're trying to address? "We will keep checking in about each other's need for time together and special dates." or "A weekly date night is a must, with bonus sexy time."

Overall, I feel a heavy sense of "balance" and "fairness" and "equality" coming across in your expectations, and in your fears. Realize that real life rarely gives us balance in relationships, and trying to force that will mean someone feeling like they are giving up opportunities, or both of you splitting hairs with the relationship math -- resentment on one or both sides is nearly inevitable.

 

[RichardD]

A great example of having a plan to treat the unknown others as people.



My thoughts are these:

What is the purpose of each rule? Vigilance about Sexually transmitted infections? Awesome. Can we not be trusted to be vigilant without the specific rule about where we can touch and what we should be looking for? "Condoms, always" is a standard specific, with definite, universal benefits.

What is the function of a SoA? What are the acceptable bases for denial? Is it really fair to a potential partner to subject him/her to the scrutiny of someone with whom they do not expect to be involved? Not in my world. I'm not trying to say "Yer doin' it wrong!", but this is my immediate thought on this rule, as you requested. It feels arbitrarily controlling.

Why the "tit-for-tat" that genital/anal gets a balancing date with bonus sexy time? Contrived, even ritual interaction with an intimate is so not sexy to me. But maybe it works really well for you two. Is there a way to make this less codified, less tied to other relationships, and more about the generic need you're trying to address? "We will keep checking in about each other's need for time together and special dates." or "A weekly date night is a must, with bonus sexy time."

Overall, I feel a heavy sense of "balance" and "fairness" and "equality" coming across in your expectations, and in your fears. Realize that real life rarely gives us balance in relationships, and trying to force that will mean someone feeling like they are giving up opportunities, or both of you splitting hairs with the relationship math -- resentment on one or both sides is nearly inevitable.

Exactly the sort of thoughts I was hoping to get. Honestly, I think a lot of the reason for it is to make me feel better, simple as that. Never said it was logical . For the telling to the other person, I think the ideal is that we tell each other everything as fun stories, maybe even as turn-ons. The idea behind the going out is similar to a specific date-night, where we work to keep our relationship strong. Though I see what you're saying about the trust thing with going farther with someone I've never met.

Perhaps it would suffice to have a good conversation with the girl about what I'm comfortable with, say "I trust you" and have a dedicated date night every week. For the tit-for-tat thing, to be honest, I'd be fine with just her on a rational level, though I'm open to seeing other people, should that occur at some point. On an irrational level, there's the idea of "why can she do it and I can't?" which has several layers I'll need to work out. Another thing is I've got this idea of (like mentioned above) her and me talking about our sexual exploits and it being a building function of our relationship.

For the record, I don't know if you've noticed this but I tend to think very mathematically about almost everything that I do. Generally that's a benefit. In this case, I could easily see overcomplicating thing. Perhaps that's what I'm doing. We're getting together later today, and I want to show her this and talk for a bit about it. Thank you for your input, SlowPoly; I really appreciate it!

 

[SlowPoly]

I'd be fine with just her on a rational level, though I'm open to seeing other people, should that occur at some point. On an irrational level, there's the idea of "why can she do it and I can't?" which has several layers I'll need to work out.

Funny, my polyamorous life didn't start until I could get comfortable with the idea of my partner having other partners. Woof said I could date, have sex, fall in love, and he wouldn't have to, since I felt fairly possessive at the time. I didn't like the proposed lack of symmetry of my seeing others (there were potential candidates), when I couldn't get my head around jealousy about him dating. I worked on my head, and I'm so glad I eventually got there!

Another thing is I've got this idea of (like mentioned above) her and me talking about our sexual exploits and it being a building function of our relationship.

That sounds like fun, but remember that other partners have a right to some privacy, so you guys should clear such disclosure with your other partners, if it's really an important part of what you're seeking. As well as not divulging third parties' personal info, remember to check in along the way with each other on how much info is TMI. This is new stuff and a little gentleness is warranted. Don't just data dump and then see what hurt.

Thank you for your input, SlowPoly; I really appreciate it!

I'm so glad it was helpful. [re-editing, because I see what I did] I'd like to make one more wee suggestion: You may be very comfortable calling your partner "the girl," and she may not mind that either. But there are some of us reading this who are uncomfortable with people calling a woman "girl" or "the girl" -- there's cultural baggage associated with that kind of objectification and diminution. At first I suggested that you give her a nickname, but I'm editing because I see that you already have. Please call her Mary, so readers can focus on your questions and stories, and not get sidetracked by our own responses to "girl."

Good luck embarking on this journey!

 

[RichardD]

Funny, my polyamorous life didn't start until I could get comfortable with the idea of my partner having other partners. Woof said I could date, have sex, fall in love, and he wouldn't have to, since I felt fairly possessive at the time. I didn't like the proposed lack of symmetry of my seeing others (there were potential candidates), when I couldn't get my head around jealousy about him dating. I worked on my head, and I'm so glad I eventually got there!

I feel like if I can get through this in-the-head space I'm at now that things will really be good! Mary's been poly for a while, so I think she's used to the idea. In that respect, there is some catch-up to do. It's a challenge, but I think it'll make me a stronger person in general, even if something happens and we break up in the future.

That sounds like fun, but remember that other partners have a right to some privacy, so you guys should clear such disclosure with your other partners, if it's really an important part of what you're seeking. As well as not divulging third parties' personal info, remember to check in along the way with each other on how much info is TMI. This is new stuff and a little gentleness is warranted. Don't just data dump and then see what hurt.

I'm so glad it was helpful. If I may make one more small suggestion... Calling your partner "girl" may feel very comfortable for you, and even for her, but for many of us there are cultural associations that make it an uncomfortable way to hear a woman referred to. Please consider assigning a nickname to her (not just an initial - we're all full to the gills with alphabet soup), to make it easier for readers to focus on your questions and stories.

Good luck embarking on this journey!

The term is comfortable for the both of us, but I see where you're coming from. I mean it only endearingly, but I'll mind the connotation in the future As for others' privacy, I am certain that the guy I mentioned is comfortable with full disclosure, but I'm not sure about the mutual friend. Generally speaking, it does sound fun, doesn't it? That's the sort of relationship she had with a couple of boyfriends ago, and I really liked the prospect of it, but I'll be mindful of that potential issue.

 

[SlowPoly]

And I don't mean to nitpick every use of "girl" as a generic term for a female human. It's just that your partner is a central figure in this scenario, not a hypothetical or tangential subject. You made a great move early on by giving her a name. Okay, I'll let you have your topic back, now.

 

[RichardD]

No problem at all. Any derailment has been sufficiently offset by sound and from what I can tell, experienced advice, so don't worry about it

 

[GalaGirl]

So you are play grounding these agreements. In general, if you both are good with them? I think it is fine. There is no one way to do poly. They don't have to be what I do.

Do they cover enough? I don't think so. They are too specific in some ways and not broad enough in others. Are these hard limits that will never change in time? Or soft limits that could change over time?

I see the lack of a time frame in the post. How long will you guys try those on before the check-in to reassess if these work, do not work, need to update?

They seem to revolve around body management .... Like where my body goes. You state condoms for PIV or PIA sex. But what about oral? Digital? What "barriers" are needed for these two people to feel ok? Gloves? Regular screening? Setting some boundaries there is sensible. So good start.

Although talking about the body, the rest seems to be trying to cover mental and emotional boundaries -- like what is needed for trust to meet the need to feel safe, the need to reconnect after time with other partner. Valid concerns. But to me it reads like the need is not clear. What's the list of main values/needs that these action list things are supposed to meet?

http://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory

Could it be easier to circle them? What things do you need to feel safe enough polyshipping? What's the desired outcome?

THEN make your shared code of conduct/expectactions (or whatever you want to call it)

How about info management? What is tmi to share? Everyone needs privacy at some point.

Ex: You and her might be ok sharing sex details for fun, but that is not info belonging only you two. The people you share sex with may have a different line -- and they may not want to be talked about. What then?

How about coping with new agreements from the new partner? They too are a person who may have their own boundaries and thoughts. It is undeniable that if you two have other partners, there's a ripple effect. One jumping into the waterbed sends all the people sitting on it bobbling about. It's the polymath. How MUCH that ripple affects you depends on how boundaries/expectations are set.

How about emotional management? Coping with jealousy or poly hell?

http://www.kathylabriola.com/articles/are-you-in-poly-hell

http://www.cat-and-dragon.com/stef/poly/Labriola/jealousy.html

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Jealousy_Updated_10-6-10.pdf

Polyshipping can trip some emotional stuff. Do you expect your partner to help you with all or it, some of it, or expect to manage your emotional stuff on your own only? Does it depend on the topic?

Ex: Already you feel things because she can "date passively" and you cannot. How do you cope with that?
Ex: How will you cope if there is no stamp of approval and you want to date the person anyway because of strong feelings for them?

I think you guys could talk a bit more and then try on your agreements. You don't have to know every single thing in the world ahead of time, but you can cover how you expect yourselves to behave when faced with a new thing. You can cover some of the areas you want to know now.

And with those two sheets -- be better prepared to sort out the rest "in the field" as it arises.

Galagirl

 

[RichardD]

Yep, there's a lot to read up on. Mary and I had a very good talk last night about this, and she agreed that we should flush out our needs from the list. I do feel as though she is giving me most of what I need. And that practical polyamory link seems very useful as well. I haven't read over the others yet, but these all look great.

Thank you for all of the feedback! You've given us a great deal of material to discuss!

 

[IndieSolo]

If I were required by a partner to meet and give his approval on anyone else I wanted to date or fuck, I would immediately break up with him because I couldn't continue in a relationship with someone who clearly does not respect my autonomy nor trust my ability to make good choices for myself. That is a dictatorship, not a relationship, IMHO.

 

[RichardD]

If I were required by a partner to meet and give his approval on anyone else I wanted to date or fuck, I would immediately break up with him because I couldn't continue in a relationship with someone who clearly does not respect my autonomy nor trust my ability to make good choices for myself. That is a dictatorship, not a relationship, IMHO.

Understandable. However, let me repeat this, this is new for me, and it's not easy for me. I fully realize that I have things to suss out. Don't think I haven't questioned why the hell I'm in an open relationship or questioned how long I could sustain this. As it goes on, I will probably become more comfortable with it. Should I trust her implicitly? That would be the ideal, and she is entirely trustworthy. The issue is mine, and she knows that I know this.

If Mary does not want to be patient with me, that's her decision, and there's not much I can do about it. Same with if she does. That said, the result will probably distill to "I trust you, and let's continue to communicate." I do appreciate the feedback and the sentiment. Harsh? Sure. If you have more, lay it on me

 

[polybynature]

you could not do it.

 

[lili]

I think making rules about sexual behaviors is a smarter path to start down than setting boundaries around what emotions can/cannot happen, so you win there.

I do think you should agree to follow the same set of rules as you lay down for her, even tho you both seem to think you don't need to. I think it would just promote a sense of equality between you two.

 

[RichardD]

you could not do it.

We've talked about this a fair bit as well, and that's kinda been where we've been at so far in the relationship, but she has said that at this point she'd prefer having rules in place as well, if only for my benefit and her not feeling like she was using her experience to manipulate me, which is nice of her.

I think making rules about sexual behaviors is a smarter path to start down than setting boundaries around what emotions can/cannot happen, so you win there.

I do think you should agree to follow the same set of rules as you lay down for her, even tho you both seem to think you don't need to. I think it would just promote a sense of equality between you two.

Absolutely, and I definitely would.