Fun and Frolic With Long-Term Love

Gah! Lots to write about here, to answer you ladies! :)

was thinking about this and how you had said that you are finding that Warman shows less desire to move with you as time goes on while I was reading a response you had written on another thread. I started wondering if the depression and waffling about moving started when Warman moved into your home. If so, I wonder if he had built up this idea in his head that moving in would put him in the same category as Punkrock and Darknight, so he wouldn't feel like the odd man out anymore, the boyfriend who feels less than the two husbands. I'm guessing that not much has changed since he moved in, other than logistics of no longer having a 20 minute drive to see each other and he's struggling with the difference between what he wished for and what has actually happened.
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This is a really interesting insight that I have thought about here and there but never really focused on. On a number of occasions, prior to moving in with me, WarMan made offhand comments about "when we're married" and I had to back him up to say, I don't remember getting a proposal! He was referring to him moving in, each time. He comes from a conservative background and has never lived with a girlfriend. He may have lived with his ex wife prior to marriage, but as I am remembering it, I don't think he did. He told me that it seems the same to him, though to me it is completely different. Some of his distress could be stemming from ambiguity - I know that is certainly where a lot of mine comes from! But is he truly upset that he isn't treated as a husband? Hmmmm I am not sure this is the issue.

The reason I thought of this is because when you post in other parts of the board, giving advice or whatever, more often than not, you mention your husbands and your experiences with them, but other than your signature, there's no mention of Warman. I doubt it's something you conciously do, but I wanted to comment on it as a possible explanation for recent changes in his attitude and wanting to move. I know you've been stressed and not feeling 100% because of the ringworm that turned out not to really be ringworm, which I'm sure has had an affect on all your relationships. I'm not even sure if I'm right, but I figured it couldn't hurt to tell you what I saw as a possible issue.
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Now this I can speak to with some information. It is 100% true that I am more likely elsewhere on the board to bring up my husbands rather than WarMan. This is because of many reasons. I have been with my husbands longer, and can give advice from a place of strength when people ask about relationship dynamics. Long term planning and how love works in that regard - I know about! With WarMan, not so much.

I actually read your entry to WarMan out loud last night, (he doesn't read my journal very often because it bothers him) and he said that in his opinion I am much more positive and upbeat about my husbands here, where he feels like I don't write as much about the good interactions that we have. I thought about that and again, I don't feel that is inaccurate. I think it has a lot to do with how I utilize my journal - I dump problems here, and for most day to day stuff, WarMan and I are more likely to be dealing with rockiness because our relationship is much more new than my others.
 
Part 2

You now what I think? I'd bet anything that, when he's hanging with Monkey, she says things and makes little comments here and there that sabotage any good feelings WarMan might possibly have about himself and his relationship with you, Bluebird.

It may not be done consciously, but I say that because they had a long, intense period in their friendship where she "rescued" him and he depended on her (and he still feels that he owes her for that). So, on an unconscious level, she may believe that if she can do or say things that keep him down and feeling bad about himself, then she wins because he will still need her, and turn to her for comfort. It doesn't take much to poison someone with words or attitude.

I just keep having this feeling that Monkey's become something of a saboteur because she doesn't want to move on and accept that he can be happy, have a girlfriend, and still be her friend without being lost or in trouble. She has no idea what her role in his life is anymore, and may be trying to hold on to what she knows. And she may also feel it is unfair that the guy she rescued can have good things and happiness while her marriage and personal life isn't so rewarding right now.

And that is my internet psychoanalysis for the evening!
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Maybe? I tend to do better when I am not speculating about what Monkey may or may not be doing. I still believe her to be very manipulative, at least borderline emotionally abusive, and someone who brings drama. I also still believe that it is not my place to police my boyfriend's other relationship. I give him advice when he asks for it, but for the most part he doesn't even do that any more. I asked him a while back to please not allow her issues to intrude on our time together, and he's done a very good job separating that out. So I don't know if she is stressing him out with "sabotaging comments." I just trust that he loves me and if she said anything negative about me, he has enough intelligence to work it out himself, or ask me for follow up.
 
Part 3

Today, things are ok. Meaning, there's still tons of uncertainty for everyone, but no immediate reasons for a fire alarm.

Our long term plan remains in place - we are moving next Spring. All of us. WarMan told me today he doesn't do well with change and he is super stressed about his job. What if he quits his job now (this is a daily mantra with him - things are all sorts of high stress and fucked up there) and then gets another job that requires him to report to an office? Where should he look for a job, if we don't know where exactly we are moving? What if he waits and we buy a house one place and he gets a job further away? What if the house is far from Monkey? What if the job is far from Monkey? What if he has to accept much less pay and he hates it?

I can only reassure him that we have about a year left before we buy. He knows the major area locations we are currently considering, but none of them are solid because, well, we have a year left before we buy. If he were to have to relocate, at this point, I believe we would all relocate with him, because we haven't bought anything yet. Also, I love him like crazy and as a stalker, he can't get that far away without me following. :)

I have shared with all my guys too, that we aren't exactly married to the idea of purchasing a home next Speing. We are 100% moving out of this rental home, but we could relocate and rent another place in one of the areas we are considering. There are some positives to that. So if WarMan is wonky with his job still at that time, it may make sense to just chill a bit. Another year of prep won't break us. However, it is disappointing and it isn't something I consider an amazing option - but it is an option!

Reading back over all of this, maybe there is something to the post by Hannahfluke. Some of this stress that WarMan has might be due to questions regarding how does he stand up to my husbands? Am I willing to put my life on hold while he gets his together, as JUST a boyfriend? Definitely something for us to discuss.
 
Bluebird said:
Am I willing to put my life on hold while he gets his together, as JUST a boyfriend? Definitely something for us to discuss.
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Maybe there is something in there... I mean, clearly, you don't feel like he's just a boyfriend. You are committed to him enough that you gave up your bedroom to have him live with you, added him as a signer to your joint account? (not clear on that), and are considering his well being, job, and relationship with monkey when considering where to move your family and how to move your family (buy or rent.) But, if WarMan considers the rungs: boyfriend, legal husband, and nothing solid in between, that could be some of the stress. As someone who grew up in/spent years in a conservative church where the sanctity of marriage was preached, I can see how he may be struggling....it's a lot of work to unpack all that religious and societal indoctrination enough to really understand that it's not paperwork, monogamy, and legal mumbo jumbo that make a relationship a committed partnership/marriage, it's the commitment that makes the relationship a marriage, no matter what the relationship looks like from the outside, legally or otherwise. It seems to me, that you're trying to show him that.
 
Yes!!!
 
Bluebird said:
Gah! Lots to write about here, to answer you ladies! :)



This is a really interesting insight that I have thought about here and there but never really focused on. On a number of occasions, prior to moving in with me, WarMan made offhand comments about "when we're married" and I had to back him up to say, I don't remember getting a proposal! He was referring to him moving in, each time. He comes from a conservative background and has never lived with a girlfriend. He may have lived with his ex wife prior to marriage, but as I am remembering it, I don't think he did. He told me that it seems the same to him, though to me it is completely different. Some of his distress could be stemming from ambiguity - I know that is certainly where a lot of mine comes from! But is he truly upset that he isn't treated as a husband? Hmmmm I am not sure this is the issue.



Now this I can speak to with some information. It is 100% true that I am more likely elsewhere on the board to bring up my husbands rather than WarMan. This is because of many reasons. I have been with my husbands longer, and can give advice from a place of strength when people ask about relationship dynamics. Long term planning and how love works in that regard - I know about! With WarMan, not so much.

I actually read your entry to WarMan out loud last night, (he doesn't read my journal very often because it bothers him) and he said that in his opinion I am much more positive and upbeat about my husbands here, where he feels like I don't write as much about the good interactions that we have. I thought about that and again, I don't feel that is inaccurate. I think it has a lot to do with how I utilize my journal - I dump problems here, and for most day to day stuff, WarMan and I are more likely to be dealing with rockiness because our relationship is much more new than my others.
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I'm glad you were able to talk to Warman about my post. Like I said, it was just something that occurred to me that I wanted to share, in case it was relevant to what is happening and you hadn't thought of it. If it's not relevant, that's okay too :)
 
One more thing. Am I remembering correctly that Warman used to be Mormon and his ex wife still is? If so, I can virtually guarantee that they did not live together before marriage. Not only that, there's a huge chance that both of them were virgins on their wedding night, especially if they got married in a temple. That religion is very, very focused on morality and chastity and that sex should only happen within the sacred bonds of marriage. How I managed to mostly ignore that programming (my husband and I got married at the church instead of the temple because we'd been having sex for over a year before we got married and I wasn't willing to stop for a year so we'd be considered repentant enough to get married in the temple) is a bit of a mystery to me, but I'm glad it's true. And once I left the Mormon church, pretty much any guilt I had about sex vanished, which is nice, since I've enjoyed the sexual part of poly a lot:D
 
Yes, the Mormon church is very strict about sexual matters. It's in the doctrine, and the culture as well.
 
I am home alone tonight - PunkRock is working til 10, DarkKnight is out at a practice for a choral performance at Antietam for Memorial Day, and WarMan went to Monkey's. It's pouring buckets outside and I'm curled up playing Fallout 3. I feel like I should be doing something else, but I'm tired and not motivated to do anything else. :)

Well, I am honestly not too concerned about the Mormon church - WarMan has definitely broken from them and moved on. He doesn't seem to think he has any unpacked baggage from that time in his life. I do think he has a lot of self esteem issues though, and when combined with his depression, just sometimes it causes issues.

We had a short talk today and I reiterated to him that I feel there are two things he has to understand - that I have already made a choice to include him in my life long term, and that as of right now I am still confused as to what choice he will make. It doesn't matter for me at the moment though - we can move forward as time allows, and as issues come to their apex points.

WarMan said he thought it was important that I make a firm distinction between what I am willing to do and why, and what my husbands are willing to do and why. For example, I told him that if he needs to relocate due to his job, I would be willing to do that because I love him, and that my guys would be willing to relocate because they love me. He says that isn't the same as them being willing to move because of him. I can see that, but having spoken to both of them, neither of them would harbor any ill will toward the others, if it were a move that had to be done. It's not like anyone is apt to be like, fuck living in Maryland, I'm moving to Minnesota and you have no choice about it! We are all reasonably sane adults and realize that our polycule needs to flex and not be a bunch of assholes to everyone.

What I wrote about earlier - that each of my husbands have each other's back - I believe they WOULD make that move for each other, if it were needed. Because they love me, but yes, also because they would have the ability to do so without too much trouble at the present time - DarkKnight can live & work anywhere in the US, and PunkRock has a job that could transfer him elsewhere if needed. If someone was looking at a major relocation for a credible reason, they would do it and be supportive.

WarMan said this is crazy if they would move for him, after only knowing him for a short time. And that it makes more sense that they would only be moving just to keep me happy. I don't really think it matters though - the end game is that they would move if they saw that it was important for WarMan, and if it wasn't a negative hit on their own careers and it made me happy. I don't know if it's just hard for him to understand all those things work together to result in that outcome.

Anyway, they've already agreed to be ok with living in this workable 2 hour radius around Harrisburg, and prior to that we were looking all across the US, so if he had to do a major relocation, it's not like anyone would be really upset about shifting plans again.

Any anxiety I have about future plans is not really having to do with me - I know that I am willing to make plans and be flexible. I love WarMan and we'll do what needs to be done with his job, if it's needed. I trust that my husbands trust me, and will follow where I deem it necessary to go. What I don't like is that WarMan is so stressed with the uncertainty, that he doesn't seem to feel confident about any number of issues, and maybe he finds it hard to believe that my polycule would be supportive of him. The more I think on it - he certainly hasn't had that support in the past - his friends, including Monkey, have moved away without giving him consideration in the past.

Anyway, he told me he wants to talk more tomorrow on topics, and I hope we do.
 
I was only commenting on the Mormon thing because you had said that you weren't sure he had lived with his ex before marriage. It's highly unlikely that he did, for the reasons I stated above, so I can easily see that living with someone who he is romantically involved with equals something akin to marriage in his mind.
 
Bluebird said:
. . . maybe he finds it hard to believe that my polycule would be supportive of him. The more I think on it - he certainly hasn't had that support in the past - his friends, including Monkey, have moved away without giving him consideration in the past.
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I can see how someone with low self-esteem wouldn't trust that anyone would be there for him, if that is his background. That is hard to get over.

Bluebird said:
Anyway, he told me he wants to talk more tomorrow on topics, and I hope we do.
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I hope the talk goes well!!!
 
A year ago today I spread my dad's ashes in Canandaigua Lake, in NY. After the evening I had with WarMan last night - I just can't seem to lift myself out of bed to be functional. Yet, I am hosting a lab day in Chemistry at 1 pm, so I am going to have to get up and face the world. It sucks.

How about some good news? I posted an interest email to my homeschool group only, and I had enough responses to almost fill 2 classes of Astronomy in the Fall. And that's without any advertising to other groups! Astronomy is my favorite to teach because it requires zero cash outlay for me to teach (I don't have to buy chemicals or specimens) and the information is always fun and interesting! It's my most popular class too - and that was definitely upheld by the emails and messages I received. Oh, and it's only one day a week. I'm thinking I will teach Wednesdays, 9 to noon, with a second class running from 1 to 4 pm. It's only a semester long, so I will finish up with time to prepare to move - where ever that may be.

I need to prep in the next couple of days for my daughter's graduation. I will be ordering her a diploma and getting that printed up, all official. Then we need to plan her trip to visit her birth sister in July. It's coming so quickly!
 
Just to give more detail - WarMan was having a MAJOR depressive episode last night, and dealing with his emotions left me wiped out. He kept telling me that I can never understand how a mental illness like that feels to have to navigate constantly, and though no, I've never had it, I can say I have dealt with it pretty much my entire life with others. My father was a manic depressive with schizophrenic episodes, and PunkRock struggles with depression and alcoholism as well. We're not talking light little issues here! I try to do my best, and though I can't put myself into WarMan's shoes, or anyone's shoes, I feel I can at least try to manage my responses.

So that's what I attempted to do last night. By the end of the evening he seemed back to his old self, and initiated sex with me, though it was hard for me to figure out that he was feeling better. After hours of doom and gloom, telling me that he wasn't a real person inside, and that no one should ever, ever rely on him for anything, for him to suddenly be like, hey, let's fuck - it was a difficult shift for me to make. He got a little aggravated that I couldn't see that he had made that shift. We talked about it a bit after.

I know I am definitely going to want to talk about it more later. Tonight he is going to Monkey's though. We have Friday night scheduled together, before I leave for NY on Saturday with DarkKnight.

One really wonderful thing is when I came back from my date night with WarMan feeling down, when I went to say goodnight to PunkRock, he was incredibly supportive. I told him WarMan was struggling with his depression and I was feeling drained, and he just hugged me and held me for a short bit, and that felt pretty great. Later he texted me that sometimes the only thing anyone can do for him, when he is depressed, is just be present when he needs them to. Sometimes he needs alone time, and sometimes he needs to be held. So that was great that he was trying to reassure me without asking me to explain things further.

I just finished my Chemistry class and I just want to go back to bed and have today be over. It was a class where every kid needed assistance with the lab, and the quizzes were a split between 100% scores and 75% scores. One student who has been struggling was completely unprepared and would have straight-up failed, but because the lab had to be done in stages, I gave everyone practice problems to do. I had to re-teach this kiddo how to do all the chemical equations again, and so they did manage a 75. I am glad we had time to do that.

But gah! tiring!

Tomorrow I HAVE to make time to go to the social security office. I have paperwork for my son to get processed, and I need to change my name on my social security card. However, I need to clean my desk and find all the information I need to do that. It isn't happening right now. I need a break from life. I won't be getting it this weekend though, since I will be visiting my mom in her new apartment and getting things worked out for her. We need to go over her end-of-life paperwork again - life insurance, her will, etc. Not looking forward to that. Hurray for Mother's Day?
 
W00t! After sitting for a little over 2 hours yesterday, I was able to finish everything at the social security office. I was told that my new card with my new name will arrive in a week! So excited! The next step is an MVA visit for a new license. It'll cost me $20, but I have to bring the new SS card with me, so I wait. :)

Last night I ended up sleeping over with PunkRock again. I was really feeling cuddly with WarMan, but he was hurty and on call, as well as feeling sick. He told me he'd prolly keep me up the entire night, so I went downstairs. I did sleep well, so I guess it was a good choice. The last time I drove to NY, I was exhausted. Not the case today!

DarkKnight left this morning to go see his mom for an early Mother's Day breakfast. He told me he hopes to be home in a short bit to go out with our daughter for free comic book day, before he and I have a memorial thing for an acquaintance who passed away a while back. His family is holding a gathering in City Park. My son should be there after 2 pm, but shortly after that, DarkKnight and I have to leave to start our journey up North.

I am not really pressed for time as far as arriving goes. I told DarkKnight that I'd be fine stopping halfway and staying at a hotel in Pennsylvania. I am tired of these rushed trips to NY!
 
Happy Mother's Day everyone! Always such a strange day for me - I'm only a mom to my kiddos because other mothers made terrible choices. My children would not be the same if they had been born to me, and in a lot of ways, dealing with the issues they have because of that fact has been a huge swath of my life. I am different - they are different - older child adoption is not for the faint of heart! Let's see, my son was 12 when he came home, and he will be 27 in a couple of months. My oldest daughter was 10, and now she's 25. My baby girl was also 10 when I first met her, and she's now 18 and graduating next month! Time goes so fast.

There was a point in my life when I desperately wanted to be a mom. When it was discovered that my ex husband had a genetic disorder and could never have a biological child, though the fact was devasting to me at the time, I rallied quickly. Though adoption wasn't my first choice, it didn't mean I was settling for second best. I soon came to be more excited about adoption than creating a birth plan! I was focused on my career, and being able to add older kids to our family who would go to school and allow me to continue working as normal seemed perfect.

Of course, then we decided to adopt siblings! It ended up being the most difficult thing I had ever done in my life, but also the most rewarding. I became an expert in IEPs and attachment parenting. I gave speeches about adoption and participated in marches. I quit my job to become my children's biggest fan and strongest advocate.

After my divorce, when I married DarkKnight, I once again got caught up in the idea of possibly making a baby. When it became clear that it was not going to be easy, I told DarkKnight that adoption had been so positive overall for me, I'd rather drop everything and shift back to that. He was quick to jump into the idea and we set out to find a sibling group. Instead we found our single daughter. Well, she was the oldest of a a large sibling group who had all been adopted out separately - and she remained unchosen. We kept coming back to her photo, and we decided she was supposed to be ours.

It was again, a weird shift in my life. Before I had been focused on promoting adoption and the kids who wait, but my little girl's issues were so profound that I didn't have time for all that. I again had to focus solely on her needs, and I became a homeschooling mom when I was told that at age 11, she would never progress any further academically, that she had reached the limit of her capacity to understand. Haha! Fuckers. She thrived with me leading her - she went from being unable to subtract two double digit numbers to passing Algebra II with math as her strongest subject. Though a lot of her issues can't be healed, we've made new pathways and she's strong.

My kids have changed me in ways I would never have imagined. I've become a better person because they were in my life and I wouldn't have it any other way. I have loved being their mom, and I am so happy that things worked out the way they did.
 
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Happy Mother's Day, Bluebird!


I never wanted to be a mother, but always reserved the option of adopting as the way I would go if I ever changed my mind. I think it is one of the noblest things we can do, especially for children who are no longer babies. Though we've been out of touch for many years, I know someone who adopted four children at one time from a Romanian orphanage. The kids were all HIV+, and I haven't seen her and her family since right after they were first adopted as toddlers, but they are doing great now. Here is an article about them: Rocky Hill family with 4 adopted HIV-positive kids thrives despite challenges

I used to joke that I'd adopt a kid who was about to turn 18, lol. Give 'em a few good months and then they're on their own but have to take care of me when I'm old and feeble - just a joke!!!

So - it is your son and oldest daughter, whom you adopted with your first husband, who are siblings?
 
It's actually pretty sad - there are a TON OF 17-18-19 year olds that are desperate for a family. At that age, they can decide whether or not to continue to be listed, or to concentrate on being independent. So, if they're on a photo listing, they want parents. Can you imagine graduating and then not having a home to return to later for holidays? Or someone to call when you forget how to boil an egg? It's sad. :( I think the statistic is pretty grim - I think it's something crazy like 75% of kids aging out of care alone end up in jail. I know I've seen it listed as high as 90% in some states. They have little to no skills and no one to care about them.

That said, they can also be crazy manipulators who have never learned to love anyone.The matching process is important! :)

Yep, my oldest two have the same birthmom and probably the same birthdad.
 
So things went well in NY. We got my mom set up with her iPad, and she's texted me since we left, so she is using it. :) I was able to see my oldest daughter as well, and my brother too. It was definitely the least stressful trip I've ever taken up there! It was nice to just stop driving when we wanted to do so, and to not have a schedule of who to see and where to go - it was really leisurely! DarkKnight and I were able to stop at Selin's Grove Brewery and relax a bit, and he bought a growler. It was an expensive trip, but I don't mind the expense.

I say that, but then I came home to having to pay the deposit on my youngest daughter's senior pictures, and I'm taking her to get a makeover sometime this week with a friend, in preparation for prom. I need to clean the fridge and go grocery shopping sometime today. And I need to pay my student loan before I forget to do that.

Today is Chemistry class though, so I need to get my shit together and shower this morning, since that starts at 1 pm. After that, will be the grocery shopping I spoke of - then PunkRock and I are meeting up with a mutual friend to do character creation for an Iron Kingdoms RPG game we are going to start playing with a group. WarMan said he wants to play, but I am not sure if he is actually going to do so. He's pretty busy!

Everything is well in my world at the moment. Just chugging along with life!
 
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So today is kind of blah. I am trying to get into the groove, but I'm not feeling it. I woke up from a phone call from my mom. Apparently at 11 pm last night her door buzzed and it was my 12 year old niece, asking if she and her mom and her brother could sleep over. My mom told her no. So my mom was all stressed and freaking out about that. She lives in an old folks home - she wasn't going to have drama there overnight. Probably my sister was fighting with her husband and she took off. Ugh. I think my mom did the right thing. It's pretty ballsy of my sister to send her kid to ask - especially when she snubbed my mom on Mother's Day and didn't call her and didn't show up to take her to the brunch they had arranged. Whatever. I am glad I don't live there.

After listening to my mom for about an hour and helping her with her iPad, I hung up. (She wanted to know how to delete people that Facebook keeps telling her she might know - she actually got a recommendation to friend BreatheMusic, since my mom is friends with me, and I am friends with WarMan and WarMan is friends with BreatheMusic on Facebook. Crazy, right? She's like who is this strange lady? I don't know this person. I'm like, just hit "remove," mom!) Anyway, immediately upon hanging up, I get a text from one of my chemistry kiddos asking for assistance with a math problem. Nothing I'd rather do at ass-o'clock! :) Hobestly, I don't mind helping out my students, but it's not the most positive and happy way to begin my day.

I got the student straightened out and then talked to my daughter for like a half hour about shopping this afternoon. We are going thrift store shopping with her friend later. Gotta get her some shoes to wear to prom, and some odds and ends clothes for her senior pictures on Saturday. She needs a tshirt and a sweater and maybe some new sneakers or a dress. We will see what we can find. I need to wake up so I can enjoy doing that but I am really not feeling it at this point.

I need to shower and get dressed. I need to run over to Walmart and buy some nail polish remover. I need 100% acetone for a Chem lab tomorrow. I also need to get a new eyeliner. I like Smashbox but don't feel like driving to the mall - though maybe I will end up there today anyway with my daughter. I am thinking about stopping in to see PunkRock at his work. That might lift my spirits a bit.
 
OMG! Why is Facebook so creepy like that?! Once removed people I can *maybe* understand.... But that's a random series of connections. I don't like the idea of racking up a friend's list of people I don't even know, thanks but no thanks Facebook! I'd have the same reaction, "who the heck is that?!“

Google is like that too with all the adds that suddenly fit in with the topic of your emails and searches. Thanks for stalking me Google!
 
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