Gender

[River]

So what's this all mean? Nothing...lol. I'm a firm believer that we should just accept people for how they are. We also shouldn't worry too much about what other people think. There's always going to be someone who hates on people who are different.

I love the idea that what it ultimately all means is that we should accept folks as they are.

I'm quite attracted to androgyny in both men and women. No woman is more sexy to me than a tomboy! (Yum!) And guys who let their "feminine side" out to play are pretty yummy too. And sexiness, for me, is almost equally about visible and invisible qualities. But it's the invisible stuff that really turns me on!!

 

[vinsanity0]

I was the one that brought intersex into the conversation (because I find the topic fascinating and relevant to a discussion of gender), but you are welcome to dismiss it. I would point out, however, that intersex is probably not as UNcommon as many people assume - it is just not generally something that people disclose except in certain settings. According to the Intersex Campaign for Equality the term could apply to 1.7% of the population - approximately the same prevalence as red-headedness.

Ref: https://www.intersexequality.com/how-common-is-intersex-in-humans/

Yes, that is only 1.7%. On top of that, the term "intersex" refers to a hodgepodge of assorted anomolies even more rare than the whole. The point is it's small enough that it shouldn't dictate how we view gender.

 

[River]

Biological sex and gender are the same thing. It is gender roles and display that can be considered a social construct.

You seem to be treating gender as synonymous with biological sex, which historically -- it appears to me -- was (but no longer remains) the cultural norm in places such as we frequent. ("Modern Western Civilization")

"Same thing" means synonymous. Same-same. Equivalency.

But then there is (for example) Oxford English Dictionary. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender

Either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.
‘a condition that affects people of both genders’

‘someone of the opposite gender’
‘everyone always asks which gender I identify as’

-- Oxford Dictionary

And then things only get more linguistically nuanced and complex from there.

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=gender

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_history

https://debuk.wordpress.com/2016/12/15/a-brief-history-of-gender/

https://www.cram.com/essay/the-concept-of-gender-in-the-study/P3JTFKKXC

 

[vinsanity0]

You seem to be treating gender as synonymous with biological sex, which historically -- it appears to me -- was (but no longer remains) the cultural norm in places such as we frequent. ("Modern Western Civilization")

"Same thing" means synonymous. Same-same. Equivalency.

But then there is (for example) Oxford English Dictionary. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender




-- Oxford Dictionary

And then things only get more linguistically nuanced and complex from there.

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=gender

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_history

https://debuk.wordpress.com/2016/12/15/a-brief-history-of-gender/

https://www.cram.com/essay/the-concept-of-gender-in-the-study/P3JTFKKXC

Yeah, I'm not in the business of reinventing the English language. I'll leave that to the millennials to muck up

 

[River]

Yeah, I'm not in the business of reinventing the English language. I'll leave that to the millennials to muck up

It is a demonstrable and basically undisputed historical fact that the English language -- like all languages -- is in continuous flux. It's not something anyone (not even millennials) can keep stable and unchanging … or alter on their own.

Gender is a word which began mutating, sometimes slowly, other times quickly, for centuries. Not even Donald Trump could keep it from transforming in usage! -- but I expect he'll be tweeting about it sometime in the middle of the night soon.

 

[vinsanity0]

It is a demonstrable and basically undisputed historical fact that the English language -- like all languages -- is in continuous flux. It's not something anyone (not even millennials) can keep stable and unchanging … or alter on their own.

Gender is a word which began mutating, sometimes slowly, other times quickly, for centuries. Not even Donald Trump could keep it from transforming in usage! -- but I expect he'll be tweeting about it sometime in the middle of the night soon.

I'm not understanding the Trump reference, but I disagree with the rest. The meaning of words don't change overnight. The word gender didn't begin mutating until around 2010.

 

[River]

I'm not understanding the Trump reference....

Trump Administration Wants to Change Definition of Gender to Restrict Transgender Rights

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-change-transgender-definition-745214/


"The meaning of words don't change overnight. The word gender didn't begin mutating until around 2010."

Um. No. "Gender" in relation to biological sex isn't of especially long usage. It was mutating from the very beginning, and mutated more and more through its brief time on the stage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#Etymology_and_usage

Only for a little while was "gender" used as a synonym for biological sex. And now it is not. Not in general/popular usage. And the shift didn't happen all of a sudden in 2010. It happened gradually over howevermany decades.

Anthropologists have long recognized that "gender" (insofar as it is a culturally universalizable concept--It really isn't--outside of that particular word use), varies in meaning from culture to culture, with some cultures recognizing only two genders and some other cultures recognizing a greater number (e.g., three, four six, eight... who do you appreciate?). Do you wish to insist that your own culture's version is "correct"? Fine. Good luck to you.

 

[ElMango]

I'd be what's called a "demi-girl", but I prefer Non-binary since it feels more accurate in it being more vague and demi-girl sounds silly to me.

Basically, I can roll with my AFAB and it works well enough; but I have zero emotional connection to my genitalia and really have times where I REALLY don't ID as a female.

It was a whole lot more anticlimactic than I assumed it would be realizing I wasn't fully cis.
Honestly, I feel like I'm faking it because it feels so...boring and inherently useless to me, because the label fell into my lap in gender studies research and I went "Oh, that's me"

Gender presentation is really the main thing that I think society can judge because, by definition, it's a presentation. It's what we're showing others.

 

[vinsanity0]

Trump Administration Wants to Change Definition of Gender to Restrict Transgender Rights

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-change-transgender-definition-745214/

And this is what happens when you try to change the definition of a word "overnight" instead of explaining things in the proper context. You get this ignorant push back.

"The meaning of words don't change overnight. The word gender didn't begin mutating until around 2010."

Um. No. "Gender" in relation to biological sex isn't of especially long usage. It was mutating from the very beginning, and mutated more and more through its brief time on the stage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#Etymology_and_usage

Only for a little while was "gender" used as a synonym for biological sex. And now it is not. Not in general/popular usage. And the shift didn't happen all of a sudden in 2010. It happened gradually over howevermany decades.

Anthropologists have long recognized that "gender" (insofar as it is a culturally universalizable concept--It really isn't--outside of that particular word use), varies in meaning from culture to culture, with some cultures recognizing only two genders and some other cultures recognizing a greater number (e.g., three, four six, eight... who do you appreciate?). Do you wish to insist that your own culture's version is "correct"? Fine. Good luck to you.

I suppose in the space of millions of years, hundreds of years is a little while. And I suppose it is your right to pretend words don't mean what they mean. I have not been convinced that it's better to do that than work within the framework of the language as it is.

 

[vinsanity0]

Gender presentation is really the main thing that I think society can judge because, by definition, it's a presentation. It's what we're showing others.

Other than using the word "judge", this is what I'm getting at. In my mind, gender, gender roles, and gender presentation are all separate things. Separate, but related. The word "gender" should not be shorthand for all those things. I think mainstream society would be more accepting if it was presented like this.