Girl kept kissing someone else from me, even though we have a rule to tell each other

[fiftyeight]

Girl hid kissing someone else from me, even though we have a rule to tell each other

I have mentioned this open relationship in previous posts.
We have been seeing each other for 3 months, she slept with two guys since then and told me about it, I didn't do anything physical with another woman yet.

I have been very clear from the start that the most important thing for me is honesty and that she tells me about her physical encounters with other people.
Yesterday we went to a party and one of the guys she slept with was there (call him John). She is friends with John and I am alright with that.
She kissed John at the party, which I would be alright with as we can do these things with other people.

However she did not mention it since that happened. We hung out together quite a lot since then, like 5-6 hours, so she had plenty of time to tell me about kissing him.

She kissed one of her female friends in the party which I am alright with, and we were talking about it today, I asked if she kissed anyone else in the party. Then she mentioned kissing John.

Now this is the first time in those 3 months we were together that she did something physical with someone else and did not tell me about it. She did not lie, when I asked her if she kissed someone else, she did tell me, but she did not tell me on her own initiative.

This is quite upsetting for me, I have emphasized being honest about these things since the start.
I told her it bothered me and that I feel she wouldn't have told me if I haven't asked.
I then asked her why she didn't tell me and if it wasn't clear that she should have. She said it was clear that she should have told me and that she didn't tell me because she was scared and didn't view it as much as a big deal as the sex was. (The "scared" part is because she still feels a bit guilty being with other people even though we clarified a hundred times that it is OK.)

The point is that I am not sure whether I could trust her now, probably there is no magic formula for figuring this out. But I am wondering what is the policy of people around her about this kind of scenarios.

The gist is that we had an agreement to tell each other about doing physical things with other people, including kissing, and she didn't tell me. However when I asked her about it she did tell me. It was quite a coincidence though that I asked her about it. After that I asked her if there were any other such occurences she hasn't told me about and she said "No".
So she didn't lie about kissing John, but conceiled this information.

I guess this is always an annoying dilemma, as once I am mad about her conceiling information, she'll have even more incentive to hide it next time so that I am not mad.

What I am not sure of is how seriously to take this breach of trust, is one breach enough to end the relationship (it is quite a new relationship, 3 mnths). How many chances does a person deserve?

 

[Magdlyn]

You don't mean just a casual hello kiss, you mean she goes off to a secluded location to make out?

If she made out with a guy she's already had full on sex with, what's the big deal? Do they have an ongoing relationship?

 

[bookbug]

I understand the honesty issue, but seriously, this sounds really hyper vigilant on your part, especially given that he has been one of her sexual partners.

If it were me, I sure as heck wouldn't be doubting someone's trustworthiness under the circumstances you described.

 

[london]

Maybe referring to her as a woman rather than a female child will inspire a more positive relationship between you.

 

[fiftyeight]

You don't mean just a casual hello kiss, you mean she goes off to a secluded location to make out?

If she made out with a guy she's already had full on sex with, what's the big deal? Do they have an ongoing relationship?

Yes, a make out kiss. Don't know how serious the make-out was, but certainly not a casual kiss.
They are friends who has sex once.

At this point we have an open relationship agreement, where we can get physical with other people, none of us has expressed interest in having an ongoing relationship with other people yet. We are quite at the beginning of this open relationship.

The deal is only that we agreed to tell each other about any physical encounter we have with other people, and she did not tell me out of her own initiative, she did not lie either when I asked her, but the question was quite coincidential, I do not want to have to ask. Imagine a relationship where one only admits a wrongdoing if the partner asks him specifically about it.
If I did not ask, it is clear that I would not know about it.
So, she didn't keep her word, but I am not sure how much of a deal to make of it.
My frame of mind is that I want to have honesty above all and I emphasized it since day one.

 

[fiftyeight]

Maybe referring to her as a woman rather than a female child will inspire a more positive relationship between you.

I thank you for your comments to my threads, but I am quite certain my relationship is not suffering due to me using the term "girl" for young women (ages around 18-30), it is commonly used where I'm from, as in "I'm going for a night out with the girls"

 

[Marcus]

At this point we have an open relationship agreement, where we can get physical with other people, none of us has expressed interest in having an ongoing relationship with other people yet. We are quite at the beginning of this open relationship.

Judging by how tight a leash you are planning on keeping each other on, I suggest having this conversation sooner rather than later. Developing feelings for someone can happen quickly and unexpectedly so if you wait to have this conversation you may find that you're having it after the fact.

Knowing that one of you might develop feelings for someone in advance is unlikely. Don't set yourself up for failure.

If I did not ask, it is clear that I would not know about it.
So, she didn't keep her word, but I am not sure how much of a deal to make of it.

This sounds like a misstep in a very new relationship with a person (her at least) who is new and not yet comfortable with the whole "open relationship" arrangement. You can consider this a dire breach of trust if that's how you view it, but I personally think that it's just a growing pain.

In my opinion what you might want to work on is how strictly you stick to the idea of previous agreements. I recommend taking a more flexible approach. Instead of "this is what we agreed upon", you might focus more on "do we need to amend what we agreed upon to more accurately reflect where we are?"

Yes, it is good for people to follow through with their agreements, but it is also the responsibility of the people involved to update their agreements as needed to keep them reasonable (the agreements).

 

[Marcus]

The deal is only that we agreed to tell each other about any physical encounter we have with other people

More to the point, what is the motivation for this rule/agreement? Why does it exist at all?

 

[SlowPoly]

Maybe it's less about how many chances she deserves, and more about why the rule doesn't work for her. Maybe she doesn't want to share with you every intimacy with another person. Maybe the idea sounds good, but in practice she's just not comfortable with it. Ask her why that might be.

You rightly point out that you can't really trust that she will open right up and tell you next time. Assume you can't trust her with this particular rule, and decide whether that's a dealbreaker for you. Maybe you guys can work out a rule that works for both of you. And maybe you can't. Sometimes people's boundaries don't work together, and there's no glory in staying together when they don't.

 

[fiftyeight]

More to the point, what is the motivation for this rule/agreement? Why does it exist at all?

That's a good question. I guess it just gives me a feeling that she has nothing to hide in terms of her relationships, and that I know how emotionally involved she is with other people she is seeing.

Probably it won't be there forever, but at this point we haven't really done many things with other people, so it's kind of a way to keep track of how the open relationship is working and how it develops, and to get acclimatized to it.

 

[fiftyeight]

Maybe it's less about how many chances she deserves, and more about why the rule doesn't work for her. Maybe she doesn't want to share with you every intimacy with another person. Maybe the idea sounds good, but in practice she's just not comfortable with it. Ask her why that might be.

You rightly point out that you can't really trust that she will open right up and tell you next time. Assume you can't trust her with this particular rule, and decide whether that's a dealbreaker for you. Maybe you guys can work out a rule that works for both of you. And maybe you can't. Sometimes people's boundaries don't work together, and there's no glory in staying together when they don't.

Yes, I do agree that perhaps she is not comfortable with this agreement.
I still think it is her responsibility to tell me if she isn't comfortable with certain agreements, and not simply break them, but I understand what you are saying.
I should definitely ask her how she feels about this agreement.

 

[Marcus]

Probably it won't be there forever, but at this point we haven't really done many things with other people, so it's kind of a way to keep track of how the open relationship is working and how it develops, and to get acclimatized to it.

If that is the motivation for the rule then it sounds like you might be better off touching bases regularly. Instead of setting a rule that all physical intimacy needs to be reported like a magazine check at the end of a shift in the military, set it up more like a team meeting where everyone checks in to sort of re-center and make sure everyone is ok.

This would seem to be doubly appropriate because she doesn't seem to be sure exactly how she wants to approach this new challenge (polyamory) quite yet.

Maybe every week just sit down and reach out to her. You can tell her where you are at, how you imagine the relationship progressing, what fun and interesting interactions you've had, etc. Then ask her how things are going on her end, in that order. I say this because if she is not sure how comfortable she is with being forthcoming with you, setting the stage by being honest with her about *you* is a great way to set the pace for a safe and open dialogue.

Rules have the opposite effect, in my opinion. They restrict and close people off, they set up scenarios where there needs to be repercussions and lectures, where one person now needs to decide if they think the other is a liar (which you are currently going through).

So again, if your goal is to have a flourishing open relationship with this girl but want to know what is happening with her and vice verse... just talk to her instead of setting up a rule.

 

[SlowPoly]

Looking back on the thread, there is a lot of I want, I need, important to me, we agreed. I really don't get a feel for her voice, except that she was scared to tell you she kissed a guy she'd already had sex with.

I gotta say, it sounds a bit like "I want to feel control, and I set it up for that, but I find I don't actually have control, and her breach of the rule made me angry at her." Imposing a punishment or consequence or ultimatum might help you feel more in control, but it probably won't address her needs. And addressing her needs would probably be a good idea.

If you want to be with this woman, then open up to her needs about disclosure and autonomy.

If you want control over the development of her other relationships, and any agreement is a hard boundary that cannot change, then regardless of how long you've been together, I'd say you're fighting a losing battle. Given the short duration of your relationship so far, I'd say it's one not worth fighting.

 

[PolyinPractice]

Now, it does seem like a stupid rule, OP, sorry, but let me give you the way it works for my partner and myself, and maybe it'll help give you some alternatives:

My partner and I are one of those couples that checks in constantly; so this may be perfect for you. "Check in" is probably the wrong term, but we usually text/talk at LEAST every half hour. We also love to share details.

Example: I have a date with a girl. I tell him about it beforehand, in the natural course of conversation (by the time a date happens, he's already heard all about her and probably seen an OKC profile/talked to her/met her). He always encourages me to do whatever I want with her; I'm usually much more conservative and prefer to move slowly. If the girl is okay with it, I'll Skype him in for a call, so we can all chat. If not, I would wait till she left the next morning, and update him on details. If I'm busy for whatever reason, I'll tell him within a day or two. If I have another fun date, I'll probably tell him about that, too. But, if she picks me up to get groceries and kisses me when she drops me off? I'm probably not going to remember to tell him about each and every kiss.

Example: I'm at a party. I kiss a guy. I'm highly unlikely to tell my partner, unless I plan on pursuing it/going on a date. Why? Because I know he wouldn't care and it's not something we can talk about in bed to get us both going (if it were a girl, I'd probably tell).

Example: He is flirting with a girl online. Six months later, it happens that they can actually meet. He'll tell me, once the date is planned, but may or may not have mentioned her earlier (since he'll probably have messaged a half dozen girls, none of who will ever turn into anything). (I trust that he only has serious conversations with girls interested in playing with both of us, anyway)

Does this help you at all? We have the kind of obsessive communication it looks like you want; yet neither of us feels "on a leash," which Marcus was warning you about.

 

[fiftyeight]

If that is the motivation for the rule then it sounds like you might be better off touching bases regularly. Instead of setting a rule that all physical intimacy needs to be reported like a magazine check at the end of a shift in the military, set it up more like a team meeting where everyone checks in to sort of re-center and make sure everyone is ok.

This would seem to be doubly appropriate because she doesn't seem to be sure exactly how she wants to approach this new challenge (polyamory) quite yet.

Maybe every week just sit down and reach out to her. You can tell her where you are at, how you imagine the relationship progressing, what fun and interesting interactions you've had, etc. Then ask her how things are going on her end, in that order. I say this because if she is not sure how comfortable she is with being forthcoming with you, setting the stage by being honest with her about *you* is a great way to set the pace for a safe and open dialogue.

Rules have the opposite effect, in my opinion. They restrict and close people off, they set up scenarios where there needs to be repercussions and lectures, where one person now needs to decide if they think the other is a liar (which you are currently going through).

So again, if your goal is to have a flourishing open relationship with this girl but want to know what is happening with her and vice verse... just talk to her instead of setting up a rule.

I do feel as well that the need to "report" could be annoying for some people.
Weekly discussions do seem much more friendly and give a chance to create a comfortable atmosphere where we both share things, so I like the idea.
I would still probably want to have a talk in those discussions about what physical encounters we had last week, and I agree that being the first to talk would make her feel more comfortable sharing.

Thank you for the advice

 

[fiftyeight]

Looking back on the thread, there is a lot of I want, I need, important to me, we agreed. I really don't get a feel for her voice, except that she was scared to tell you she kissed a guy she'd already had sex with.

I gotta say, it sounds a bit like "I want to feel control, and I set it up for that, but I find I don't actually have control, and her breach of the rule made me angry at her." Imposing a punishment or consequence or ultimatum might help you feel more in control, but it probably won't address her needs. And addressing her needs would probably be a good idea.

If you want to be with this woman, then open up to her needs about disclosure and autonomy.

I didn't really set an ultimatum or punishment, I just told her it is important to me, and she said herself that she'll tell me these things. After I asked her about kissing someone and after she answered, I still didn't talk about any punishment, I just told her it bothered me a bit because I feel she would not have told me if I haven't asked.

I was mostly worried about how to treat the whole things and whether it reflects on our relationship or on her/me in any way.

I very much agree that ultimatums and punishments are not beneficial when you are trying to create a comfortable, loving atmosphere.

Thank you for the advice

 

[Marcus]

I appreciate your attitude thus far, fiftyeight. While I do believe you are working against yourself with the rule you put in place, it seems that you are actually trying to figure out how to make it better.

Many people get MONDO touchy about being told they are dropping the ball.

I didn't really set an ultimatum or punishment, I just told her it is important to me, and she said herself that she'll tell me these things. After I asked her about kissing someone and after she answered, I still didn't talk about any punishment, I just told her it bothered me a bit because I feel she would not have told me if I haven't asked.

I very much agree that ultimatums and punishments are not beneficial when you are trying to create a comfortable, loving atmosphere.

Regarding ultimatums and punishment: while I get that you don't feel like you set up an ultimatum or dished out a punishment, I would say that your rule and your response to the rule have, in fact, done both.

In your initial post you were asking if we thought her breaking the rule was enough to consider breaking up with her. This is the essence of an ultimatum "if you don't follow this rule I may break up with you". So while you didn't intend to set up this kind of controlling situation, the presence of that rule helped to ensure that's exactly what happened.

As far as punishment, this rule means that any time there is a breach (like the event leading up to this thread) she has now put herself in a position of dealing with your hurt feelings, lack of trust in her, and possibly losing her relationship with you. I would say this is a form of punishment.

A rule is not a rule if there are no consequences for breaking it. Emotional baggage and possible loss of a relationship are certainly examples of serious consequences.

NOTE: I am not saying that I don't have rules/boundaries/deal breakers; I certainly do. I am simply saying that you should look at this apparent need to know about her activities as it would seem to be based in your fear of the unknown. Instead of having someone else take action to sooth this fear, I suggest learning to deal with the fear itself.

In case you are curious: My boundaries are related to protecting myself from behaviors which I find repugnant to my way of life. Someone trying to interfere with my other relationships, for example, is a dealbreaker, as this is an action which demonstrates that I am not accepted for who I am and that they will take action to control me (no bueno). This is really my main poly related boundary which, coincidentally, would come into conflict with someone telling me I needed to inform them of my physical interaction with other people.

 

[fiftyeight]

I appreciate your attitude thus far, fiftyeight. While I do believe you are working against yourself with the rule you put in place, it seems that you are actually trying to figure out how to make it better.

Many people get MONDO touchy about being told they are dropping the ball.

Regarding ultimatums and punishment: while I get that you don't feel like you set up an ultimatum or dished out a punishment, I would say that your rule and your response to the rule have, in fact, done both.

In your initial post you were asking if we thought her breaking the rule was enough to consider breaking up with her. This is the essence of an ultimatum "if you don't follow this rule I may break up with you". So while you didn't intend to set up this kind of controlling situation, the presence of that rule helped to ensure that's exactly what happened.

As far as punishment, this rule means that any time there is a breach (like the event leading up to this thread) she has now put herself in a position of dealing with your hurt feelings, lack of trust in her, and possibly losing her relationship with you. I would say this is a form of punishment.

A rule is not a rule if there are no consequences for breaking it. Emotional baggage and possible loss of a relationship are certainly examples of serious consequences.

NOTE: I am not saying that I don't have rules/boundaries/deal breakers; I certainly do. I am simply saying that you should look at this apparent need to know about her activities as it would seem to be based in your fear of the unknown. Instead of having someone else take action to sooth this fear, I suggest learning to deal with the fear itself.

In case you are curious: My boundaries are related to protecting myself from behaviors which I find repugnant to my way of life. Someone trying to interfere with my other relationships, for example, is a dealbreaker, as this is an action which demonstrates that I am not accepted for who I am and that they will take action to control me (no bueno). This is really my main poly related boundary which, coincidentally, would come into conflict with someone telling me I needed to inform them of my physical interaction with other people.

I am not sure what the following sentence means: "Many people get MONDO touchy about being told they are dropping the ball".

I didn't tell her I am considering breaking up with her due to not telling me, I guess you could say I am not fully honest by not saying I am thinking about it, but I don't think I need to disclose all my thoughts. Pretty shortly after writing the post, taking some time to think and talking to some friends about what happened, breaking up due to this started seeming like an overreaction.
So to be clear, I've never told her that I might break up with her or anyhing like that, these are just private thoughts I have.

Do you consider your boundaries "rules"? Do you believe if you have certain boundaries you should frame them as unbreachable, with serious consequences? or just say they are important to you and leave it at that?
If you do intend to break up with someone under certain circumstances, do you think this intention should be verbalized?

About telling each other about physical interactions, do you believe it is unnecessary? why am I working against myself in your opinion? I wrote previously some benefits (post 12) I see in talking about physical interactions, do you not believe talking about these will provide those benefits?

I am thinking of just framing these weekly talks (they do not have to be formal) as times when we both can talk about what we had last week, to talk about these physical encounters, and see how we feel about the whole thing, and I do not intend to frame this as a rule to have these discussions, just say they are important to me, explain the benefits and leave it at that.

There are a lot of questions here, I hope you could go through some of these issues, you're advice helps me a lot.

Thank you.

 

[Marcus]

I am not sure what the following sentence means: "Many people get MONDO touchy about being told they are dropping the ball".

I have basically told you that I think your rule about her reporting her physical activities to you is counterproductive and needs to be seriously revisited ("dropping the ball"). Many people do not take this kind of criticism with much grace - you seem to be handling it constructively for the most part.

Do you consider your boundaries "rules"? Do you believe if you have certain boundaries you should frame them as unbreachable, with serious consequences? or just say they are important to you and leave it at that?

I try not to be inflexible, but my main rule about my relationships being independent from one another and someone trying to wedge themselves into things which are not their business, is one that I don't see being in need of revision at the moment. Who knows, maybe some day I will realize that this boundary is no longer realistic or yielding the desired results and I need to change it - only time will tell.

My boundary is centered around my partner embracing that I am independent and that they should never try to control my actions. I am quite forthcoming about this information when meeting new prospective interests and it is plainly stated on my OK Cupid profile. I do this to reduce the chance that I end up with a cowgirl (someone who tries to poach a poly relationship).

If you do intend to break up with someone under certain circumstances, do you think this intention should be verbalized?

I'm not interested in getting people to shape who they are to suit me. If I end up in a relationship with a person who does not embrace who I am then I am content to adjust the relationship to something more like a friendship or acquaintances (or dissolve our association entirely if need be). If they are interested in knowing why, I certainly don't mind telling them.

But as far as preemptively letting them know they are approaching a cliff? I think "Please don't talk poorly about my other girlfriend, I am less inclined to share intimate details with you when you do that" or "I understand that you are feeling insecure about our future together, but no, I will not cancel my date with her to stay home with you" are good warnings. If behavior which is repugnant to my worldview continues after prompting I need to adjust that relationship - no "this is your last warnings" necessary.

About telling each other about physical interactions, do you believe it is unnecessary? why am I working against myself in your opinion? I think talking about physical encounters it could help us see how the open relationship is progressing and how we feel with it as it is pretty new to us. I did agree with you that the particular way I went about it (that she has to report to me right after) is not very good.

I'm not against sharing what is going on in your lives, not at all. It was the way you went about it (as you mentioned) which I was warning against. If you want to know something about a person who you respect as an adult, you should ask them if they'd like to tell you. Now, if that person doesn't care to discuss it with you then you need to practice taking "no" for an answer (it doesn't sound like you are in that position currently).

So again, if an open and healthy relationship is your goal, rules are not the way to get there.

I am thinking of just framing these weekly talks (they do not have to be formal) as times when we both can talk about what we had last week, to talk about these physical encounters, and see how we feel about the whole thing, and I do not intend to frame this as a rule to have these discussions, just say it is important to me and leave it at that.

I think that's a good start. My only comment on that is to remember that you are not entitled to get the answer you want. She may not always want to share exactly what you want to hear so the two of you will need to get to know your privacy levels and what is reasonable to expect.

 

[Tonberry]

What I find OMG is that we have a name to address the Op, his username. We even have a name for a guy she kissed/banged. The only person we don't have a name for is the girlfriend, who is only ever referred to as "girl". Look at the bloody title of this thread.

I get that and the title also surprised me, but you do say "girlfriend" and it's commonly used that way. I think becoming aggressive and insulting was out of line.

The title sound super disrespectful as it's used like "Girl" is her name or something. There isn't even an article. But in the post the OP says early on he hasn't had sex with other women which does mean he considers his girlfriend a woman (he would have said "with women" otherwise. The "other" implies there is already one in the mix, his girlfriend).

In the end I think it's irrelevant to the topic itself. The solution is to talk with her and let her know how you feel. If she already had sex with that friend, well she might have assumed she didn't need to tell you every time something happens because you already knew about it. A lot of people consider making out to be on a "lower" step than having sex, so if the latter was okay they'll assume the former also is.

So talk about it and both be clear what is and isn't fine and where you want to go with the relationship.