Girlfriend's dating problems and trans issues

[ahpook33]

It's not a question of me 'defining gender' for someone else.

But that is exactly what you are doing!

At least when I respond, I try to make logically sound arguments that I've thought through - instead of making patronising statements like 'you could do well to read up on this'. What exactly should I be reading up on?

You just keep on making everyone else's point for them.

A lot of what you could be reading up on is contained in the thread above. Lots of sound knowledge from folks who know more about it than I do. Start there.

PS. you're funny when you call my statements "patronising" immediately after telling me that yours are "logically sound arguments that I've thought through".

 

[ManofDiscovery]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

So I read that page. The points relevant to this can be summarised as 'a transgender person can see themselves as being a different identity to the sex they are assigned at birth'.

However just because you see yourself as female does not mean that someone else will. Because this is such a fundamental deal breaker for so many people, potential dates deserve to know up front.

However, if it's not a big deal, and it makes no difference 'i class myself as a woman therefore I am exactly the same as all other women'...why not tell your dates about it upfront? It's not a big deal, so no one should care, right?

 

[Pyuvii]

Yes, and my response was for her to be more upfront in the first place. Nobody seemed to like this.

I think what you wanted to hear was 'those people are all so awful people for rejecting her, don't worry, just keep trying blah blah'.

I think telling them after the date was pretty upfront...
And no that wasn't what I wanted to hear.

I wanted/want to know how to comfort her after she's been rejected for something that's an essential part of her identity; Honestly I probably should have left out the trans part because it seems to have completely derailed the thread =P

 

[ManofDiscovery]

I think telling them after the date was pretty upfront...
And no that wasn't what I wanted to hear.

I wanted/want to know how to comfort her after she's been rejected for something that's an essential part of her identity; Honestly I probably should have left out the trans part because it seems to have completely derailed the thread =P

The nature of upfront is that it happens beforehand, not after.

However, sorry for derailing your thread, since in fairness you did ask how to comfort her. Give her a cuddle? Best way I can think of. Some people are going to accept her and some won't...that is a constant I'm afraid.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Generally, anyone in the queer community should be pretty accepting and not turned off by the trans status.

... "Should" being the operative word. Unfortunately, the so-called "queer community" is sometimes the most guilty of rejecting trans people. It's stupid and it needs to change.

There are plenty of dudes out there who have a thing for trans girls (myself included), but you want to know what you're dealing with beforehand.

All the trans people I know very emphatically don't want to be dated specifically "because" they're trans. They're not a fetish. Having a "thing" for trans girls is completely objectifying them: "I'm not attracted to you as a person, I'm attracted your trans identity."

U seem worried only about one side of these? The transgender person, and their safety, what about emotional, and verbal abuse the guy may also get after telling his friends, maybe family, mother, grandmother, etc.. bout this wonderful woman who hes so attracted too and click so good.

So basically you're saying that because trans people are hated and judged by most of society, they should have to put themselves out there to be more hated and judged, just so that other people can't possibly be hated and judged by proxy for being associated with them?

A man isn't likely to get beat-up or killed for going out on a date with a trans woman. He isn't likely to be rejected by his family. If he endures verbal abuse from his friends and family, then his friends and family are assholes and he probably shouldn't spend time around them anyway. And above all, his family need never know. They're not going to have sex with his girlfriend, right? They're not going to find out on Facebook, because remember we're talking about a trans woman who is selective about whom she tells. If it was plastered all over her Facebook, this man in question would have known before the first date and this conversation never would have happened.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

However just because you see yourself as female does not mean that someone else will. Because this is such a fundamental deal breaker for so many people, potential dates deserve to know up front.

You're not acknowledging that it's a deal breaker for both sides. If me being a trans woman is a deal breaker for you, then your cis-female sexual orientation is just as much a deal breaker for me. When it comes to relationship compatibility, my right to know your sexual orientation supersedes your right to know what genitals I was born with.

So I'm going to turn this around and say that if a straight man doesn't want to date a trans woman, then the onus is on him to make that clear before going on any dates with any women. Not only do the trans women have the right to know, but I personally, as a cis-gendered woman, would be turned off by someone with such a narrow view of gender and sexuality.

 

[NovemberRain]

You're not acknowledging that it's a deal breaker for both sides. If me being a trans woman is a deal breaker for you, then your cis-female sexual orientation is just as much a deal breaker for me. When it comes to relationship compatibility, my right to know your sexual orientation supersedes your right to know what genitals I was born with.

So I'm going to turn this around and say that if straight man doesn't want to date a trans woman, then the onus is on him to make that clear before going on any dates with any women. Not only do the trans women have the right to know, but I personally, as a cis-gendered woman, would be turned off by someone with such a narrow view of gender and sexuality.

QFT. Brilliant, SC, simply brilliant.

 

[ManofDiscovery]

So I'm going to turn this around and say that if a straight man doesn't want to date a trans woman, then the onus is on him to make that clear before going on any dates with any women. Not only do the trans women have the right to know, but I personally, as a cis-gendered woman, would be turned off by someone with such a narrow view of gender and sexuality.

This amused me slightly. I was just speaking to a girl off plenty of fish tonight on the phone for the first time.

I'm trying to imagine at which point in the conversation I would have inserted the phrase:

'Btw, just so you know... I don't want to date a trans woman. Are you a trans woman?'

I think that would have gone down really well. She would have loved that.

To call a man narrowminded because his sexual orientation is for somebody who does not have a cock is frankly ridiculous. I struggle to believe a person would actually try and put that forward as a credible argument.

Anyway, this debate is just going round in circles. Let's end it, because it's getting boring now. No new points are being raised.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

This amused me slightly. I was just speaking to a girl off plenty of fish tonight on the phone for the first time. I'm trying to imagine at which point in the conversation I would have inserted the phrase: 'Btw, just so you know, I don't want to date a trans woman. Are you a trans woman?' I think that would have gone down really well. She would have loved that.

Well colour me gobsmacked.

Duh.

At exactly the same point in the conversation where you expect the trans woman to say "Oh, by the way, I was born with a penis."

*face palm*

Anyway, this debate is just going round in circles. Let's end it, because it's getting boring now. No new points are being raised.

On the contrary. I raised a new and valid point regarding whose responsibility it is to ensure sexual compatibility. But rather than address that point, you just looked at how humiliating it would be to actually be the person who has to do that. Funny, that. You think you're entitled to that information, but you don't think you're required to provide the complementary piece of the puzzle, because that would be awkward and difficult for you. Well boo-fucking-hoo. Trans people have to deal with judgmental comments from people like you every moment of their lives. But who cares about that, right? I mean... Obviously your needs come first. God forbid they should inconvenience you or make you uncomfortable. The horror!

But I concede your conclusion. I would have better luck discussing this issue with a door knob. At least then I would know better than to expect an intelligent response and sincere consideration of points made that don't support its pre-existing conclusion.

 

[ManofDiscovery]

On the contrary. I raised an excellent point regarding whose responsibility it is to ensure sexual compatibility. But rather than address that point, you just looked at how humiliating it would be to do that. Funny, that. You think you're entitled to that information, but you don't think you're required to provide the complementary piece of the puzzle, because that would be awkward and difficult for you. Well boo-fucking-hoo. Trans people have to deal with judgmental comments from people like you every moment of their lives. But who cares about that, right? I mean... Obviously your needs come first. God forbid they should inconvenience you or make you uncomfortable. The horror!

You raised an excellent point, if you do say so yourself.

Let's say a guy meets a woman on a dating site, who says she is a woman, but happens to be trans. The guy is expecting to be meeting a woman. Whatever your view on whether a trans woman is the same as a woman, he is expecting a woman, not a trans woman. Hence the responsibility is on the trans woman to inform him of this. He might be ok with it, he might not.

I hold no judgements against the trans community. People are free to do whatever they want, and live how they please. But if you're telling someone to expect one thing, and you're delivering another, then you have a right to inform them of that.

As if a guy is going to say, 'Btw, I'm not comfortable with dating trans women' to every single potential online date, on the off chance they may be trans. Such a small % of the population is trans that it makes no sense whatsoever.

But I concede your conclusion. I would have better luck discussing this issue with a door knob.

If you can leave all the insults and drama inducing face palms behind next time...they add nothing to the debate, and do nothing to strengthen your point.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

To call a man narrowminded because his sexual orientation is for somebody who does not have a cock is frankly ridiculous. I struggle to believe a person would actually try and put that forward as a credible argument.

Kindly reread my quote. I said "narrow view of gender and sexuality." You have indicated that your view of gender is that it equals sexuality. A person born with a penis is, always has been, and always will be a man. "He" can "call himself a woman" but to you, that "doesn't make it true."

Funny how you jumped that to narrowminded. I mean, I'm not going to deny that I do think you're narrowminded. Not because of your sexual orientation. I'm extremely tolerant of any sexual orientation. There's absolutely nothing wrong with only being attracted to cis-gendered women. I would never try to claim otherwise.

No, sir. You are narrowminded because when people make points that don't support your ignorant beliefs, you go in the corner and pout rather than allowing yourself to be educated. You end discussions on the basis that it's become too difficult to defend your position, which is basically because your position is prejudiced and irrational.

 

[ManofDiscovery]

No, sir. You are narrow-minded because when people make points that don't support your ignorant beliefs, you go in the corner and pout rather than allowing yourself to be educated. You end discussions on the basis that it's become too difficult to defend your position, which is basically because your position is prejudiced and irrational.

Sigh. You're lucky I'm a cat person.

I don't see why it's ignorant if a person says 'I'm expecting to meet a woman' if they are informed if their potential date does in fact, own a cock. Just because the trans woman sees herself as no different to any other woman does not mean that the man will. If that makes him ignorant and narrowminded, then too bad.

Not narrowminded. Just common courtesy.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

The guy is expecting to be meeting a woman. Whatever your view on whether a trans woman is the same as a woman...

I acknowledge that a cis-woman is different from a trans-woman. If you're not going to use the proper terminology, then we cannot have a conversation.

he is expecting a woman, not a trans woman.

Hence the responsibility is on the trans woman to inform him of this. He might be ok with it. He might not.

So to paraphrase, I am responsible for any assumptions a man might have about women, and it is my responsibility to clear those up before I agree to date him? I would argue that each person is responsible for their own prejudices and assumptions. It doesn't matter one iota if those assumptions are widely held and common. They're assumptions nonetheless. And we all know what happens when you [make an]ASS[out of]U[and]ME.

I also want to point out that while I can understand why you'd be insulted by my tone and language, I didn't actually directly insult you or call you a name. I merely indicated I find conversations with door knobs to be more rewarding than this discussion.

You've used terminology that is insulting, and you don't seem to care, because you have your preconceived notions, and you're not even willing to consider that they might be prejudiced and hurtful. Most decent people, upon being told that a certain phrase is hurtful, would apologize for being rude, and then use the proper term when it's provided. You just blast through all that and keep spewing the same ignorant garbage. So if you want people to treat you with dignity and respect, it's a good idea to start doing it yourself.

 

[ManofDiscovery]

In the real world outside the forum, the term 'woman' is not usually considered offensive.

Just like if a man talks about dating a woman, it is assumed he is talking about a cis-woman and not a trans-woman.

These are fair assumptions to make, because they are how the majority of people live their lives. Most men want a cis and not a trans woman.

Hence the reason I said the onus is on the trans.

We may just have to agree to disagree on this one, puss. Sorry- cis-puss.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Sigh. You're lucky I'm a cat person.

I don't see why it's ignorant if a person says 'I'm expecting to meet a woman' if they are informed if their potential date does in fact, own a cock. Just because the trans woman sees herself as no different to any other woman does not mean that the man will. If that makes him ignorant and narrowminded, then too bad.

Not narrowminded. Just common courtesy.

No one said that a trans woman sees herself as no different from any other woman. Clearly you do not have any trans friends, or you would have at least the slightest inkling of the day-to-day struggle of being born into a body that doesn't fit your gender identification.

Can you even begin to imagine what that would feel like? Imagine waking up tomorrow, your penis gone, and a vagina in its place and breasts on your chest where you used to have carefully sculpted pecs. Ok, get over the perverted first few hours of playing with your tits and cunt, and then imagine waking up like that every day for the rest of your life.

No, never mind. That doesn't even BEGIN to cover it. Imagine that when you're a little boy, your mom dresses you up in pink frocks, takes away all your GI Joes and Tonka trucks, and give you a bunch of dumb Barbie dolls and tea cups. When you friends are out playing street hockey, she doesn't let you go join in because you might get dirt on your skirt.

And then just to wrap it all up in a pretty pink bow, you grow up and start being attracted to other girls. You ask them out. But when they find out what's going on under your blue jeans (because you've finally gotten old enough that your mom can't make you wear dresses anymore), they give you a repulsed look and never speak to you again. And this happens again. And again. And again.

You're so incredibly lucky to have been born into the right body for your gender. Stop being so fucking self-entitled for one second, and just try to imagine what these people are going through. Is it really so much for you to make the small concession of letting them feel accepted at least for that first date, before you run for the hills screaming?

 

[ktpoet]

"... Should" being the operative word. Unfortunately, the queer so-called-community is sometimes the most guilty of rejecting trans people. It's stupid and it needs to change.

Yeah. That's a good point, and very unfortunate. I was thinking more along the lines of the pansexual and gender-variant parts of the queer community, not necessarily the cis-gendered LGB parts.

To answer the original poster's question: All you can really do is be there for her. Make sure she knows that you care about her and that she's beautiful.

As far as when one should divulge such information, I really think it's just personal preference. When should a person divulge any sort of medical condition, past or present? For instance, I try to be very open about my anxiety before the first date (mostly to explain why I look so ridiculously nervous), but I'm not going to tell about my hoarding tendencies until I know I really like the person and want to continue seeing them. And there are some things that I may not tell a partner at all until I'm very comfortable or I feel it's necessary. It's important for the person with the "secret" to feel safe. They're the one that has something to lose. They're the one facing rejection, ridicule, and possible danger.

 

[ManofDiscovery]

You're so incredibly lucky to have been born into the right body for your gender. Stop being so fucking self-entitled for one second, and just try to imagine what these people are going through. Is it really so much for you to make the small concession of letting them feel accepted at least for that first date, before you run for the hills screaming?

What was it you said about assumptions, cis-puss? I have a number of trans friends, and this is an issue we all agree on. Some of them have come to this conclusion because of having had problems after not being upfront in the past.

So I should go on the date with the trans girl, pretend I'm happy with it in order to make her feel accepted...and then ignore her?

The rejection has to come at some point. Surely it's better to come before she's wasted any of her time investing in what is ultimately going to be fruitless date, romantically at least?

What if she actually liked me (I know that's hard for you to imagine right now, but surprisingly it does happen) and I led her on in order for her to feel accepted? She's going to feel worse about that than she would have find upfront.

If I'm going on a date with someone advertising themselves as a cis-woman (see how I'm using the proper term, I do pay attention), that's what I expect to meet. I'm not operating some charity service where I spend my evenings boosting the self esteem of fragile egos. I offer a great listening ear, but don't make me feel like I've been the victim of some bait and switch manoeuvre.

 

[Josie]

What if she actually liked me (I know that's hard for you to imagine right now, but surprisingly it does happen) and I led her on in order for her to feel accepted? She's going to feel worse about that than she would have find upfront.

Now, this is your most ridiculous point yet.

So, you go on a date, you find out something that makes the two of you incompatible, despite the fact that your date likes you. Then what? Are you suggesting you should then stop talking to them immediately? Stop being friendly and enjoying a nice evening because you're incompatible romantically?

I've been on a number of dates where we have both been cis-gendered, and often I've found something that is a dealbreaker for me. I've then continued the date (possibly having mentioned the fact that I couldn't be romantically involved with them the moment I realised it, depending on intuition and context), I've laughed, I've had a good time and perhaps even continued to be their good friend. This has happened with the last two people I went on 1st dates with.

I think that's what has really been bothering me about this thread-- the idea that there has to be some intense romantic intent on 1st dates.
I don't know about you, but often, I barely know a person on a first date! They seem nice, I go along. I could end up romantically interested; or we could end up being friends; or it could just be one of those enjoyable nights out with someone where you don't necessarily ever meet up again; or it could be a massive bore.

I don't see how continuing a date to its logical conclusion (e.g., the end of dinner) and being friendly and talking and doing most of what you were doing before finding out the dealbreaker (minus overt flirting, of course), is leading someone on. In all romantic situations I like to think that I mean more to someone than sex, that if they weren't attracted to me, they'd still like me.

I don't see why you'd have to react any differently towards a person you're on a date with that tells you they're transgendered than you would with any other dealbreaker.

It was a nice date, you liked them, you find out you're incompatible with them, or they are with you. In my experience, this is most 1st dates!

And when it comes down to it, it's a bloody first date! I think, unless you've known the person for a while, and have been getting your hopes up over time, that anyone feeling hugely hurt and 'led on' on a first date with someone who then reveals they're transgendered needs to get a grip on themselves. How serious can you get about a person on a first date? If the answer is very, you probably need to deal with that. Most first dates don't work out, and you can't afford to let yourself get too smashed up every time one doesn't go as wanted or expected.

Note: No offense to the OP. I think if someone has a bit of a fit at you and insults you on a date, then there's more than enough reason to be upset.

 

[MeeraReed]

What was it you said about assumptions, cis-puss?

Please stop calling her a cis-puss. That is really vile and rude. Yeah, I know it's from the "cat" in her name, but... please stop.

She's not the only one who is annoyed by your communication style and your deliberate misuse of terms. She's just the only one who has bothered to continue responding to you.

 

[ManofDiscovery]

What a bunch of humourless crap.

Some of you need to get a grip and realise they there is a real world outside this forum. A real world where on dating sites, there is not a separate option for sex and gender. Just one. Where if someone puts female, they expect to meet what they consider to be a female, not a trans.

Yes there may be other dealbreakers, but most of them are personality/lifestyle related, and are not binary options you can select in your profile.

To me, if you give the impression to someone that they are getting one thing, and you give them another, then you can't be surprised if they aren't happy. Just like if the woman were to post pics from 10 years ago when she was 50 pounds lighter, I'd be annoyed. It's about misleading someone. Not the same as meeting up and discovering that there is no spark.

And seriously? You're getting offended by 'cis-puss' now?