seakinganswers
New member
I don't think she made it a week. lol
Guidelines & Boundaries vs. Rules: Merged Threads, General Discussion
- Thread starter moon
- Start date
I don't think she made it a week. lol
I think I can see this from your wife's point of view because I have been through a very similar situation. In our case the outcome has been good and things are much better than before, but we had a lot of ground to cover to get there.
I think you are wasting your time with therapy and the sort of boundary setting that you mention. You say that you love your wife (and I'm not doubting you on that) but your words and actions are not adding up as far as she is concerned. Think of it from her point of view, you cheated on her, you have announced that you need to be poly, you have told her that you want an open relationship, you have mentioned swinging and you have revealed bdsm needs/wants that she probably doesn't understand. She didn't 'sign up' for any of this and at best she probably thinks that you are having a mid life crisis!
From her point of view, none of this makes sense and until it does she is never going to trust you or be in a position to accepts your needs and wants. Looking back I realised that my husband tried to tell me two or three times, but I 'shut the conversation down' because it was scary/weird/perverted and a lot of other words of that sort. After that I just got half truths and lies which simply didn't add up and that made me even more suspicious and even more determined to work out what was going on. At that point setting a 'boundary' of not checking his phone or computer would have convinced me that he had something to hide. Suspicious partners are resourceful and you are not going to be able to hide much from her, she will find out by fair means or foul.
In our case once I had an idea what was going on I took some time to think it through. Then I wrote down exactly what I wanted to say to my husband (so that he could look at it again after we had spoken). I then chose my moment and I told him that I had a fair idea of what was going on. I told him that if he didn't think we had a future he was free to go with no hard feelings, but If he wanted to stay I was prepared to give him a 'clean slate' and what I wanted in return was absolute truth. If we were going to move forward all the skeletons had to come out of the cupboard. We agreed to go away together to give us time to talk things through. Some of it was very hard to hear but the truth was so much better than lies.
If your wife isn't poly by instinct she will probably have similar questions to the ones I had. Most of all I needed to know Why? Then there were issues such as why aren't I enough for you? what will people say? what about the kids? why all the lies? Surely that (bdsm) is against the law? I needed a lot of reassurance but the truth gave me the strength I needed to accept his poly lifestyle. We agreed that I had the right to other relationships too, but at that point I was clear that I didn't want any. If you can get your wife to accept your poly lifestyle don't try and push her towards poly too. That may or may not come later and if it does it will happen in her time and on her terms.
So rather than fencing each other in with rules and boundaries that are designed to control, be brave and have simple rules/boundaries about truth, honesty and respect for each other.
I think you are just not seeing through her eyes. Remember that you are the one who cheated and you are the one who has changed the goal posts. It takes a very long time to regain trust in someone who has cheated. If you want to stay married you need to behave as if you are married and show her some respect. Arriving home at 4am unless it was pre planned or your lateness was very clearly explained by phone certainly isn't showing her respect. How do you think she felt? If my husband didn't get home until 4am I would be convinced that he'd been involved in an accident!
I really hope you can both work it out, but if you can't it may be kinder to both of you to go your separate ways. To give you a bit of hope, I was probably much like your wife (I also had a strict religious background). I was scared and confused by all the 'stuff' that my husband was into. Now (4+years later) I am very happy with our life as it is now, and I wouldn't want to change it.
I think you are wasting your time with therapy and the sort of boundary setting that you mention. You say that you love your wife (and I'm not doubting you on that) but your words and actions are not adding up as far as she is concerned. Think of it from her point of view, you cheated on her, you have announced that you need to be poly, you have told her that you want an open relationship, you have mentioned swinging and you have revealed bdsm needs/wants that she probably doesn't understand. She didn't 'sign up' for any of this and at best she probably thinks that you are having a mid life crisis!
From her point of view, none of this makes sense and until it does she is never going to trust you or be in a position to accepts your needs and wants. Looking back I realised that my husband tried to tell me two or three times, but I 'shut the conversation down' because it was scary/weird/perverted and a lot of other words of that sort. After that I just got half truths and lies which simply didn't add up and that made me even more suspicious and even more determined to work out what was going on. At that point setting a 'boundary' of not checking his phone or computer would have convinced me that he had something to hide. Suspicious partners are resourceful and you are not going to be able to hide much from her, she will find out by fair means or foul.
In our case once I had an idea what was going on I took some time to think it through. Then I wrote down exactly what I wanted to say to my husband (so that he could look at it again after we had spoken). I then chose my moment and I told him that I had a fair idea of what was going on. I told him that if he didn't think we had a future he was free to go with no hard feelings, but If he wanted to stay I was prepared to give him a 'clean slate' and what I wanted in return was absolute truth. If we were going to move forward all the skeletons had to come out of the cupboard. We agreed to go away together to give us time to talk things through. Some of it was very hard to hear but the truth was so much better than lies.
If your wife isn't poly by instinct she will probably have similar questions to the ones I had. Most of all I needed to know Why? Then there were issues such as why aren't I enough for you? what will people say? what about the kids? why all the lies? Surely that (bdsm) is against the law? I needed a lot of reassurance but the truth gave me the strength I needed to accept his poly lifestyle. We agreed that I had the right to other relationships too, but at that point I was clear that I didn't want any. If you can get your wife to accept your poly lifestyle don't try and push her towards poly too. That may or may not come later and if it does it will happen in her time and on her terms.
So rather than fencing each other in with rules and boundaries that are designed to control, be brave and have simple rules/boundaries about truth, honesty and respect for each other.
I think you are just not seeing through her eyes. Remember that you are the one who cheated and you are the one who has changed the goal posts. It takes a very long time to regain trust in someone who has cheated. If you want to stay married you need to behave as if you are married and show her some respect. Arriving home at 4am unless it was pre planned or your lateness was very clearly explained by phone certainly isn't showing her respect. How do you think she felt? If my husband didn't get home until 4am I would be convinced that he'd been involved in an accident!
I really hope you can both work it out, but if you can't it may be kinder to both of you to go your separate ways. To give you a bit of hope, I was probably much like your wife (I also had a strict religious background). I was scared and confused by all the 'stuff' that my husband was into. Now (4+years later) I am very happy with our life as it is now, and I wouldn't want to change it.
I'm sorry you struggle. 
So which is it that you want to be doing here? Monoshipping or polyshipping?
What is the goal of therapy? To be in a healthy, trusting monoship where you can express your poly thoughts and feelings to your wife without her having a cow about and leaping off to "surely there's cheating again!" extremes? Something else? What's your desired outcome in all this?
I am confused as to what you are seeking. So it's hard to advise.
As for this...
I find the word "curfew" odd -- who says that? You or her? Like you are some kid who will be grounded if you miss curfew? Neither of you are kids. You are not each other's parent. You are spouses.
I think it's reasonable and polite to tell my spouse I'm going out and will be home by X or if plans change I will call/text by X. It's not like he can "punish" me if I am late, but as his spouse I'm not out cause him undue stress/worry just because I can't be bothered to check in. I could stay out all night and he wouldn't mind. He just wants to know what time to expect me home so he can go to sleep free of worry. All I have to do is state what time and then... be there at that time. Most of the time I'm on time or if I run a bit late he has a text explaining I am running late because of traffic or whatever and it will be more like Y. Not a biggie to either of us. He can relax because I am consistent and considerate. I can go have fun when I want. So can he.
Is your hesitance to do that behavior (ex: let her know when to expect you home and you stick to what time you said) because you fear her giving you an earful if you miss it? You don't like being accountable? Something else?
What is "earful" mean to you? Does she have a tantrum? Yell? Break things? What?
You say she has trust issues. How do you contribute to creating a trusting environment if you don't want to do things like say when you will be home? Do you do other things that help build trust in your Word? Her peeking at your stuff when she promised not to is not her helping to build trust in her Word. But what about your side?
I note that you both "explain it away" rather than "own it."
She can't just be mad you are engaging in "inappropriate humor" with ANYONE? Because it isn't appropriate?
You can't just be mad she broke her promise? Because she broke her promise?
When you explain away behavior that upset someone, that is not apologizing -- it goes off into "blame game" weirdness rather than "solve the problem."
I also think that "not owning it" adds to conflict between you. You don't have to get WHY it bugs someone. You just have to accept it DOES bug them, and apologize and do something different next time. Learning to "own it and not explain it away" would apply to both of you if you both are in the habit of that. Maybe that's something to talk to the counselor about since you are covering boundaries.
Figure out the boundaries surrounding
So that both of you can be healthy together in whatever shape.
HTH!
Galagirl
So which is it that you want to be doing here? Monoshipping or polyshipping?
What is the goal of therapy? To be in a healthy, trusting monoship where you can express your poly thoughts and feelings to your wife without her having a cow about and leaping off to "surely there's cheating again!" extremes? Something else? What's your desired outcome in all this?
I am confused as to what you are seeking.
So it's hard to advise.As for this...
I find the word "curfew" odd -- who says that? You or her? Like you are some kid who will be grounded if you miss curfew? Neither of you are kids. You are not each other's parent. You are spouses.
I think it's reasonable and polite to tell my spouse I'm going out and will be home by X or if plans change I will call/text by X. It's not like he can "punish" me if I am late, but as his spouse I'm not out cause him undue stress/worry just because I can't be bothered to check in. I could stay out all night and he wouldn't mind. He just wants to know what time to expect me home so he can go to sleep free of worry. All I have to do is state what time and then... be there at that time. Most of the time I'm on time or if I run a bit late he has a text explaining I am running late because of traffic or whatever and it will be more like Y. Not a biggie to either of us. He can relax because I am consistent and considerate. I can go have fun when I want. So can he.
Is your hesitance to do that behavior (ex: let her know when to expect you home and you stick to what time you said) because you fear her giving you an earful if you miss it? You don't like being accountable? Something else?
What is "earful" mean to you?
Does she have a tantrum? Yell? Break things? What? - Just don't miss it and you don't get earful. Your behavior is in your control.
- Or if you DO miss it, apologize. And ask her to express her disappointment in a way that is acceptable to you and not "earful way" if you dislike that (esp if she's in the habit of pitching a fit, yelling or throwing things, etc. )
- If you don't like being accountable to someone else -- why be cohabitating marrieds? Be a footloose single and answer to nobody but you.
You say she has trust issues. How do you contribute to creating a trusting environment if you don't want to do things like say when you will be home? Do you do other things that help build trust in your Word? Her peeking at your stuff when she promised not to is not her helping to build trust in her Word. But what about your side?
I note that you both "explain it away" rather than "own it."
She can't just be mad you are engaging in "inappropriate humor" with ANYONE? Because it isn't appropriate?
You can't just be mad she broke her promise? Because she broke her promise?
When you explain away behavior that upset someone, that is not apologizing -- it goes off into "blame game" weirdness rather than "solve the problem."
I also think that "not owning it" adds to conflict between you. You don't have to get WHY it bugs someone. You just have to accept it DOES bug them, and apologize and do something different next time. Learning to "own it and not explain it away" would apply to both of you if you both are in the habit of that. Maybe that's something to talk to the counselor about since you are covering boundaries.
Figure out the boundaries surrounding
- my stuff, my responsibility
- her stuff, her responsibility
- our stuff, SHARED responsibility
So that both of you can be healthy together in whatever shape.
HTH!
Galagirl
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LovingRadiance
Active member
Cheating-
Having been the cheater;
What worked:
I gave him free reign to read/search etc every email, mail, text, phone call etc. no secrets at all whatsoever.
I committed to no lies. None whatsoever. Regardless of topic.
It took about 2.5-3 years for him to quit searching for signs I was lying and cheating. But he DID get there.
Trust broken is much more difficult to grow.
Having been the cheater;
What worked:
I gave him free reign to read/search etc every email, mail, text, phone call etc. no secrets at all whatsoever.
I committed to no lies. None whatsoever. Regardless of topic.
It took about 2.5-3 years for him to quit searching for signs I was lying and cheating. But he DID get there.
Trust broken is much more difficult to grow.
copperhead
New member
Wow GalaGirl. Your post is actually very relevant and helpful to me too.
To the OP, I just found out that I was cheated on by someone who just didn't think stuff was that important. I had started to not trust his word already, because he kept braking it in so many small ways. If you want poly to succeed (and I definitely have no experience on how to make poly work) you have to be open and honest. Respect the other person and her wishes. But most of all you need to be true to yourself. What is it that you want and need. What exactly is it? Be totally honest to yourself, or you will end up lying to others. In my case, it's now obvious that he just wants to fuck new and interesting people. This is and was beyond my comfort zone, and I wouldn't have stayed in a relationship with him, nor started one if he would have been able to be honest about this.
If you want to build trust, start with yourself.
To the OP, I just found out that I was cheated on by someone who just didn't think stuff was that important. I had started to not trust his word already, because he kept braking it in so many small ways. If you want poly to succeed (and I definitely have no experience on how to make poly work) you have to be open and honest. Respect the other person and her wishes. But most of all you need to be true to yourself. What is it that you want and need. What exactly is it? Be totally honest to yourself, or you will end up lying to others. In my case, it's now obvious that he just wants to fuck new and interesting people. This is and was beyond my comfort zone, and I wouldn't have stayed in a relationship with him, nor started one if he would have been able to be honest about this.
If you want to build trust, start with yourself.
I think Copperhead is spot on about being true to yourself.
My husband lied to me (half truths are as bad as lies) because he knew the truth would hurt me and he didn't like to see me cry. I think there was conflict within him about his needs/wants conflicting with what he believed to be 'right' and he thought I would be disgusted by it. Eventually he was brave enough to give me the whole truth, to witness my hurt and to understand how insecure his behaviour had made me. Dealing with the whole truth enabled us to move forward and begin to understand each other. He had made lots of (incorrect) assumptions about what I would do if I knew and he had convinced himself that he was protecting me - he wasn't!
I trust him to be honest with me now (it took time!) but I still need to ask questions sometimes and I still have the occasional 'wobble' when he presents me with something new, but I think that's normal.
My husband lied to me (half truths are as bad as lies) because he knew the truth would hurt me and he didn't like to see me cry. I think there was conflict within him about his needs/wants conflicting with what he believed to be 'right' and he thought I would be disgusted by it. Eventually he was brave enough to give me the whole truth, to witness my hurt and to understand how insecure his behaviour had made me. Dealing with the whole truth enabled us to move forward and begin to understand each other. He had made lots of (incorrect) assumptions about what I would do if I knew and he had convinced himself that he was protecting me - he wasn't!
I trust him to be honest with me now (it took time!) but I still need to ask questions sometimes and I still have the occasional 'wobble' when he presents me with something new, but I think that's normal.
WhatHappened
Active member
OP: You cheated on your wife. Multiple times. Only about five years ago. You told her upfront you want to have sex with other women. You stay out until 4 in the morning with multiple women, without telling her when (if???) you'll be home. You have texts with 'inappropriate' humor with other women--which context suggests you didn't mention to her. You want to keep your phone and facebook closed tight. That would be the phone (and possibly facebook) where these messages with women with suggestive? inappropriate? humor are being exchanged--the messages that are not mentioned to her.
And much of the early discussion in this thread was about her 'having issues.'
You cheated on her. Multiple times. You are apparently still keeping secrets from her--regarding other women.
No, she does not have 'trust issues.' She has every reason in the world to not trust you.
If you value your wife and your marriage, I very, very strongly suggest you go to survivinginfidelity dot com, and start listening to the voices of those who have been in your wife's position, and start talking with other men who have cheated.
You are absolutely NOT going to end up with a good marriage if you continue the path you're on--which includes being on a forum telling the world her supposed problems and her supposed faults. Wow, talk about adding backstabbing slap in the face kick in the knee insult to injury. Good luck with that.
Like a couple others in this thread, I've been in your wife's shoes. My husband took your attitude, that he didn't have to open anything to me, that I should just believe him when he swore he'd quit. Turns out he wouldn't open anything (big surprise, brace yourself) because he was continuing the same exact behavior. And he was then telling people about all my supposed problems for objecting to his cheating, lies, secrets, and emotional affairs. He is now a divorced man living in a little apartment, paying child support. But he's free to do anything he wants. No woman will stand for being treated like with such disrespect if she has any way out. If she feels stuck with you, you may get your open marriage and privacy on facebook and phone, but you WILL NOT have a happy wife or good marriage.
And much of the early discussion in this thread was about her 'having issues.'
You cheated on her. Multiple times. You are apparently still keeping secrets from her--regarding other women.
No, she does not have 'trust issues.' She has every reason in the world to not trust you.
If you value your wife and your marriage, I very, very strongly suggest you go to survivinginfidelity dot com, and start listening to the voices of those who have been in your wife's position, and start talking with other men who have cheated.
You are absolutely NOT going to end up with a good marriage if you continue the path you're on--which includes being on a forum telling the world her supposed problems and her supposed faults. Wow, talk about adding backstabbing slap in the face kick in the knee insult to injury. Good luck with that.
Like a couple others in this thread, I've been in your wife's shoes. My husband took your attitude, that he didn't have to open anything to me, that I should just believe him when he swore he'd quit. Turns out he wouldn't open anything (big surprise, brace yourself) because he was continuing the same exact behavior. And he was then telling people about all my supposed problems for objecting to his cheating, lies, secrets, and emotional affairs. He is now a divorced man living in a little apartment, paying child support. But he's free to do anything he wants. No woman will stand for being treated like with such disrespect if she has any way out. If she feels stuck with you, you may get your open marriage and privacy on facebook and phone, but you WILL NOT have a happy wife or good marriage.
seakinganswers
New member
Thanks for your perspective. It's very helpful.
I haven't told her I need to be poly. Just that it is my desire for our relationship. I think she thinks its unfair that her she got stuck with the husband who thinks its compromising to not have relationships with other women. And I can't really blame her for feeling that way.
Serious question though. How long is long enough? It's been over 5 years. I'm not willing to go our whole lives to wait for her to trust me cause that's not really a relationship. At that point she might as well just be with someone she can trust.
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seakinganswers
New member
I think I can see this from your wife's point of view because I have been through a very similar situation. In our case the outcome has been good and things are much better than before, but we had a lot of ground to cover to get there.
I think you are wasting your time with therapy and the sort of boundary setting that you mention. You say that you love your wife (and I'm not doubting you on that) but your words and actions are not adding up as far as she is concerned. Think of it from her point of view, you cheated on her, you have announced that you need to be poly, you have told her that you want an open relationship, you have mentioned swinging and you have revealed bdsm needs/wants that she probably doesn't understand. She didn't 'sign up' for any of this and at best she probably thinks that you are having a mid life crisis!
From her point of view, none of this makes sense and until it does she is never going to trust you or be in a position to accepts your needs and wants. Looking back I realised that my husband tried to tell me two or three times, but I 'shut the conversation down' because it was scary/weird/perverted and a lot of other words of that sort. After that I just got half truths and lies which simply didn't add up and that made me even more suspicious and even more determined to work out what was going on. At that point setting a 'boundary' of not checking his phone or computer would have convinced me that he had something to hide. Suspicious partners are resourceful and you are not going to be able to hide much from her, she will find out by fair means or foul.
In our case once I had an idea what was going on I took some time to think it through. Then I wrote down exactly what I wanted to say to my husband (so that he could look at it again after we had spoken). I then chose my moment and I told him that I had a fair idea of what was going on. I told him that if he didn't think we had a future he was free to go with no hard feelings, but If he wanted to stay I was prepared to give him a 'clean slate' and what I wanted in return was absolute truth. If we were going to move forward all the skeletons had to come out of the cupboard. We agreed to go away together to give us time to talk things through. Some of it was very hard to hear but the truth was so much better than lies.
If your wife isn't poly by instinct she will probably have similar questions to the ones I had. Most of all I needed to know Why? Then there were issues such as why aren't I enough for you? what will people say? what about the kids? why all the lies? Surely that (bdsm) is against the law? I needed a lot of reassurance but the truth gave me the strength I needed to accept his poly lifestyle. We agreed that I had the right to other relationships too, but at that point I was clear that I didn't want any. If you can get your wife to accept your poly lifestyle don't try and push her towards poly too. That may or may not come later and if it does it will happen in her time and on her terms.
So rather than fencing each other in with rules and boundaries that are designed to control, be brave and have simple rules/boundaries about truth, honesty and respect for each other.
I'm sorry you struggle.
So which is it that you want to be doing here? Monoshipping or polyshipping?
What is the goal of therapy? To be in a healthy, trusting monoship where you can express your poly thoughts and feelings to your wife without her having a cow about and leaping off to "surely there's cheating again!" extremes? Something else? What's your desired outcome in all this?
I am confused as to what you are seeking.
As for this...
I find the word "curfew" odd -- who says that? You or her? Like you are some kid who will be grounded if you miss curfew? Neither of you are kids. You are not each other's parent. You are spouses.
I think it's reasonable and polite to tell my spouse I'm going out and will be home by X or if plans change I will call/text by X. It's not like he can "punish" me if I am late, but as his spouse I'm not out cause him undue stress/worry just because I can't be bothered to check in. I could stay out all night and he wouldn't mind. He just wants to know what time to expect me home so he can go to sleep free of worry. All I have to do is state what time and then... be there at that time. Most of the time I'm on time or if I run a bit late he has a text explaining I am running late because of traffic or whatever and it will be more like Y. Not a biggie to either of us. He can relax because I am consistent and considerate. I can go have fun when I want. So can he.
Is your hesitance to do that behavior (ex: let her know when to expect you home and you stick to what time you said) because you fear her giving you an earful if you miss it? You don't like being accountable? Something else?
What is "earful" mean to you?
- Just don't miss it and you don't get earful. Your behavior is in your control.
- Or if you DO miss it, apologize. And ask her to express her disappointment in a way that is acceptable to you and not "earful way" if you dislike that (esp if she's in the habit of pitching a fit, yelling or throwing things, etc. )
- If you don't like being accountable to someone else -- why be cohabitating marrieds? Be a footloose single and answer to nobody but you.
You say she has trust issues. How do you contribute to creating a trusting environment if you don't want to do things like say when you will be home? Do you do other things that help build trust in your Word? Her peeking at your stuff when she promised not to is not her helping to build trust in her Word. But what about your side?
I note that you both "explain it away" rather than "own it."
She can't just be mad you are engaging in "inappropriate humor" with ANYONE? Because it isn't appropriate?
You can't just be mad she broke her promise? Because she broke her promise?
When you explain away behavior that upset someone, that is not apologizing -- it goes off into "blame game" weirdness rather than "solve the problem."
I also think that "not owning it" adds to conflict between you. You don't have to get WHY it bugs someone. You just have to accept it DOES bug them, and apologize and do something different next time. Learning to "own it and not explain it away" would apply to both of you if you both are in the habit of that. Maybe that's something to talk to the counselor about since you are covering boundaries.
Figure out the boundaries surrounding
- my stuff, my responsibility
- her stuff, her responsibility
- our stuff, SHARED responsibility
HTH!
Galagirl
Thanks for the wisdom. In short, I want an open relationship. I am willing to suppress that want for the person I love if she doesn't want that.
I think most of the time when I go out with friends I have no idea when I'm going to come home. So it's hard to give a time. We may get bored or tired and I may come home by 11:30 one night. The next time we go out we may get into a deep conversation I am enjoying or just be laughing historically at how stupid we all look on the dance floor. So its not like im going to a show that ends at a particular time and thats when i will be home. And my wife usually goes to bed early so its not like staying out with my friends is making me miss out on time with her. Im simply choosing between more fun with my friends or more sleep.
You have to understand one of the major issues between my wife and I is that she takes life far too seriously. She is trying to learn how to let loose and have fun, but its definitely not in her nature of always wanting to be in control of everything around her. I am willing to text her. I did text her last time I was running late to help the ladies get home safely. But then I got the 5th degree when I got home. She wanted to know every detail of what took place just in case she caught me in a lie and could finally find out I was cheating on her. Then she finally admitted, "It's hard because you could have been out cheating on me all night and I would have no control over it." She doesn't really want me to have any moment in my life that is unexplained in complete detail because if that happens then it probably means I could have cheated on her and that I probably did. That's not a way to live a relationship in my opinion.
I think a lot of it comes down to marriage philosophies. And that goes way beyond poly thinking. In my opinion a perfect marriage would allow lots of freedom. It would celebrate individuality. If I came to her and said, "The boys just put together a fishing trip next weekend". Her response would be, that's awesome, how can we make it work for you cause that sounds like so much fun. I'm a fly by the seat of my pants guy. It's how I am wired. I don't want to think about every detail of everything so that by the time I decide to do something or not do something most of the joy is taken out of it. I want our family to have amazing adventures that don't all end perfectly, but who cares cause we still enjoyed it. That's just how I choose to live my life, and I don't find fault in it.
So it's hard for me to grasp her concept of a perfect marriage being order and structure and everything being thoroughly thought out and deconstructed. So I don't want to be single and free. I want to be married and free. I don't think marriage has to be so constricting.
But I am willing to talk boundaries and try it out. Maybe at the end of the day it will give me more freedom somehow.
copperhead
New member
There is no fault in what you want. Also there is no fault in what she wants. These things just aren't that compatible. It's hard to compromise when your needs and wants clash so badly. It's good that you are willing to work on it, though. I wish you luck with it.
seakinganswers
New member
First of all I am sorry about your marriage and how it all played out. That sounds very painful. I hope you find or have already found a much better relationship going forward and are able to be happy. I hope the anger inside you subsides and you find peace.
I'm not sure I understand much else of what you said. I have been COMPLETELY open and honest with her about everything except my slightly bisexual side which she has made very clear she would never want to know if it was true. I think from what you are saying that you believe I should walk around all day with a notebook in my hand writing down any time a sexual conversation or joke takes place or else I am hiding things from her? So let me see, my buddy just sent me a porn video he thought was hilarious. Let me write that down. Then the two people next to me at work made that joke about "papaya" again and I added my own new joke to the conversation. Let me write that down. There is no way I'm going to remember all this. Oh, Jenny just said I was a sexy beast because I got up and did "The Carlton" dance. Better write that down too. If that's what my wife requires for us to have a good relationship then good riddance. I have no desire to be in that kind of relationship whatsoever.
The problem with text and Facebook is its all completely out of context. When a female coworker says I miss you in a text there isn't all the context that led up to that comment. She didn't hear all the jokes the day before at work about how nobody was going to miss me while I was gone. To someone who doesn't trust me it just looks like a girl in probably sleeping with genuinely misses me. So in my opinion it has done more harm than good opening that all up to her.
As for posting in here. She has made it clear that she does not want me discussing relationship issues with friends, family, or coworkers. I am respecting that but I have mentioned I might get relationship advice on a forum somewhere since I have no one else to talk to about these things. And I realize sometimes that comes out as venting. And certainly sometimes people have set me straight about the way I'm thinking and given me good, well rounded advice.
seakinganswers
New member
Completely agree with you. Maybe boundaries will actually help with that. We will see. So far my boundaries are only 2. No checking my phone and Facebook, and always be honest. I can't seem to think of any others. I want to say something about her negativity but I'm not sure how you make that a boundary without being controlling. I've thought maybe we should go on a fast from all negative talk for a specified period of time and see if that helps. Something where we point out to each other every time we are being negative.
seakinganswers
New member
I should also point out, even if my wife was open to an open relationship, I would not want one in the current state of our relationship. It would be a dismal failure!!
Have you told her you don't NEED it? So she can begin to relax?
This is mind readering what she thinks. Could not do that.
This is your response to your mind-readering above. Could not do that.
This is not your response to her actual thoughts she's articulated herself.
See twisted thinking.
Esp since you mention wife's negativity -- I don't know if you, her or both engage in twisted thinking at times. Might be worth mentioning to counselor.
Everyone is different because they value different things. In case it helps you articulate your boundaries better -- here's my short list off my visitor wall:
I actually use it for all my relationships -- not romantic ones only. Keeps like simple for me. If I mess up, someone can point out I'm not giving them "clear communcation" about something for instance. If they mess up, I can do same and point it out. Because we both agreed to work with those boundaries/agreements.
No hard feelings about it -- just... steer it back on track.
To me that read like "not owning it" and "explaining it away" combo.
You could say
"I am going out with friends. I think I will be home around midnight this time. On the outside, 1 AM ish. But if I am not home by 1 AM, I will at least text to update where I am around 1 AM so you are not worrying."
Then text! This takes a few seconds of your time, and alleviates worry for your spouse. You've owned it and both of you know what to expect now.
If you just don't want to do this behavior, you could state it plainly.
"No. I don't want to do that. I don't want to set a time frame when you can expect me home, and I don't want to text udpates either. I'll just be home when I'm home."
There. You owned it. Both know what to expect now. She might not like it, but it is SOLID something. Not waffly. Anxious nervous people prefer SOLIDS to waffly shakies.
So text! Be a person of your Word and more SOLID. No more waffling around in your Word.
What does she need for her to give herself permission to trust you again after past cheating? Is she able to articulate it in counseling? Are you able to repeat it back to her so she knows you understood in counseling?
What do you need in the marriage for you to not cheat again? Are you able to articulate that in counseling? Can she repeat it back to show she understood in counseling?
That's something you guys could work out and ARTICULATE CLEARLY in counseling.
I think it might help to view it as not a (permanent thing designed to shackle you forever) but more like a (stepping stone thing) to achieving the (free, trusting, relaxed marriage) you seem to want.
Are you able to grasp a period of tighter check-ins to heal from broken trust? As a stop on the road to achieving the "free, perfect marraige" place later?
How long is "time served" for you? Before slate is wiped clean? How long is "time served" for her? Before slate is wiped clean?
It might be reasonable to give it another year of "time served" to see some progress given that it was multiple times and you guys JUST started therapy. But it is not reasonable to give it 10, 20 years! Both of you would be missing out on Life that way, keeping in the stuck that long.
Eventually she has to decide if she's going to risk trusting you again or not. That's something to talk to the counselor about -- how long is time served for each of you? Can you both agree on a time frame? And can you both lay out the boundaries for wiping the slate clean? Behavior you both can do/not do for X amount of time and THERE. Serve the time, do the stuff, and the slate is clean.
Cheating is not a cool thing to do, but it is past. Time to pick up the pieces and see what is what. I'm curious as to what you guys will be doing to help your marriage move it FORWARD and not keep it in the stuck.
What you are complaining about -- Going out with friends, fishing trips, etc -- that's socializing as an individual, as a couple, as a family. It's TIME MANAGEMENT stuff to me. If she has the need to know what's going on at all times to help manage her anxiety -- you could accept that. If you have a need to have a day off a week -- she could accept that. Saturday is "spontaneous day" -- she gets to know it happens on SATURDAY. That's scheduled enough for her. But she doesn't get to say everything that goes on within that calendar box. That's free enough for you.
It might behoove you to do some spontaneous things the first few Saturdays with HER so she has experiences of "spontaneous does not automatically mean doom for wife!" You talk a lot about going out with others -- what do you do with HER?
Then could reorganize your thoughts and what the goal of therapy is so you can actually achieve something. Become firm of purpose. Right now you go all over the place to me when I read your posts. Maybe the shared mission for therapy is something like....
- I cheated a few times 5 years ago
- My wife and I are in therapy with a goal of rebuilding trust in the marriage and each other so we both heal from the cheating.
- Though I am poly, I want to be with her even if it means Closing to a monoship shape.
The monoship shape I would most like is one where we trust each other enough to be relaxed about things like...
- who we text/call/email
- who we socialize with
- when we socialize and for how long
- how it gets slotted into the family calendar
- how we are accountable to each other when apart so people don't worry about car accidents and things
- how we resolve conflicts in calendar or other conflicts
so we both get
- enough time to ourselves alone
- enough time as a couple (just us two)
- enough time as a family (with kids, other relatives, etc)
in a balanced way so we are mostly happy together most of the time.
Aim for "good enough" and not "perfection." That alone I think would make it more achievable for both of you so you can relax enough to DO this work.
You seem anxious you will be "trapped" and she seems anxious she will never be free of "anxiety/worry/stress." If you both stay tightly wound up you won't get around to doing the work because you are too paralyzed to try anything new.
Both could chill out some and do the work you both need to do in therapy if you both share that goal above.
Talk to your counselor about clarifying the purpose of therapy, what the shared mission is. Then break it out into a strategy. Here's my action list. Here's here action list. Here's OUR action list we do together. So you both can go on to do the work and achieve it.
One of you veers off track, no hard feelings. Point to list. "It says ___ on your list, hon." No need for earfuls.
HTH!
Galagirl
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I'm sorry but my response to your question is going to sound harsh, this is not a personal criticism of you it is just an attempt to get you to understand this from your wife's perspective (or even from the perspective of a complete outsider). You say you love her and you are prepared to compromise your wants/needs in order to stay married, but your actions are not matching your words. You are not behaving like a man who wants to stay married.
I can understand that you may be more outgoing and gregarious than your wife, our relationship is like that too; but you are not young free and single and you don't have a 'right' to go out and do as you like without considering your wife's needs. What is she doing while you are out enjoying yourself? Do you invite her? If she is tolerating you going out like this she is most certainly making compromises. The very least she is entitled to expect is to know where you are going and who with, and it really isn't unreasonable to expect you to come home at what any normal person would consider a reasonable hour. If you had a better relationship you would be able to say to her once in a while that you are meeting up with friends and you may be out late, but you don't have that sort of relationship because you are behaving like someone who can't be trusted.
All the boundaries in the world are not going to help you to rebuild your marriage unless you are prepared to change and show your wife more respect. If you have nothing to hide give her access to your phone and computer. She may question things at first, but if you can give her an honest explanation she will accept it and in time she will become more trusting and she will not need to check. Of course even if you do that you can still cheat, second phone/sim, hidden accounts etc but I am assuming that you want her to trust you and to make your marriage work.
Just looking at it as a complete outsider, I wonder if subconsciously you are trying to cast your wife as controlling and unreasonable so that you can justify the break up of your marriage (to yourself). You have nothing to lose by giving total honesty and openness a try. She already has more than enough information for a divorce but she has chosen not to take that route for her own reasons, so clearly she wants to make the marriage work. If you know in your heart that you are not prepared to make a genuine effort with your marriage do the decent thing and end it as amicably as you can. If you genuinely want to make it work and you are prepared to make meaningful changes I think you should set yourself a timescale of two years. It may not be perfect by then but you should have made significant progress. If you are not making any progress at all after the first year you can probably assume that it is time to give up and move on with your life.
Marcus
Well-known member
I think it's a biproduct of the insistence on marriage longevity. Another poster mentioned that the wife didn't "sign on" for being married to a free-spirited teen party animal who wants to bang other people... but that seems to be exactly what she got. If she's unhappy and there appears to be no changes forthcoming then why drag out the relationship? For the sake of "the marriage"?
I'm not judging, I personally don't see anything wrong with going out and partying with buds frequently and dragging back to the house at odd hours in the morning smelling of... whatever. It is what it is. HOWEVER, this approach to life mixed with someone who needs to have more control of their loved ones is clearly not working.
I suggest being honest with yourself about what you are willing to compromise. You've mentioned a few times that you are willing to change but you back it up with statements like this - demonstrating that you are, in fact, not interested in changing who you are.
Again, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I won't compromise my freedom for anyone, for any reason. Right or wrong that's my boundary. What I am suggesting is that you state clearly and honestly (and gently if possible) what your boundaries are and don't compromise who you are to save "the marriage".
seakinganswers
New member
I think people are confusing my desire to stay out late hanging out with me wanting to party till all hours of the night and come stumbling home. I've been drunk like twice in my whole life. It really has nothing to do with that. I could be off helping nuns till all hours of the night feed the homeless and it would be a problem (slight exaggeration). I'm far from a party animal and I'm actually an introvert. I don't drink much. I don't tend to flirt much although if I get on a dance floor I have been know to dance with a few girls. The bigger issue for me us the lack of trust. I have no problem texting her and keeping her in the loop. Of course she is usually sleep anyways but at least then if she wakes up she will have a text from me and not have to worry. We will come to some sort of agreement.
The bigger problem is the lack of trust. If I'm texting so she doesn't have to worry then great. If I am texting so she can keep tabs on me at all times and then get interrogated when I get home then that's not healthy for our relationship. Then something in my timeline doesn't make sense and suddenly its a 2 hour argument in the middle of the night.
So trust is the underlying issue. And I'm willing to do what I can to make her trust me with one major caveat. I won't pretend. I won't pretend to be someone I'm not. I won't stop joking around with people. I won't stop being open about who I am to anybody who asks. I won't deny that my personal desire is for an open relationship. And I'm not going to pretend to be a homebody. These are all a part of the package. I can't convince her to trust some other version of who I am only to pull the rug out again later. And I won't manufacture feelings inside myself and start sending her flowers every day and get down on my knees and tell her how my heart just soars for love for her. I want to be there again just like I'm sure she wants to be there again, and when and if we are then I will scream it from the mountaintops.
I agree with you though about sabotaging the relationship. I think that's something we both have to fight off. Because at this point I don't think either of us trusts that this is going to last forever and so we can tend to build things up as worse than they are to start to justify if things don't work out.
The bigger problem is the lack of trust. If I'm texting so she doesn't have to worry then great. If I am texting so she can keep tabs on me at all times and then get interrogated when I get home then that's not healthy for our relationship. Then something in my timeline doesn't make sense and suddenly its a 2 hour argument in the middle of the night.
So trust is the underlying issue. And I'm willing to do what I can to make her trust me with one major caveat. I won't pretend. I won't pretend to be someone I'm not. I won't stop joking around with people. I won't stop being open about who I am to anybody who asks. I won't deny that my personal desire is for an open relationship. And I'm not going to pretend to be a homebody. These are all a part of the package. I can't convince her to trust some other version of who I am only to pull the rug out again later. And I won't manufacture feelings inside myself and start sending her flowers every day and get down on my knees and tell her how my heart just soars for love for her. I want to be there again just like I'm sure she wants to be there again, and when and if we are then I will scream it from the mountaintops.
I agree with you though about sabotaging the relationship. I think that's something we both have to fight off. Because at this point I don't think either of us trusts that this is going to last forever and so we can tend to build things up as worse than they are to start to justify if things don't work out.
Could you do your end of the job and just text to alleviate worry?
Let how she takes it be HER problem? Let HER deal with her whatever "thinks" she's got? Worries taking over or whatever anxiety wackies?
Separate the stuff and attend to your business. Your individual business, and your side of the shared business. Would you texting spouse to alleviate worry be you doing behavior to help the shared marriage run smoothly? Yes. So do it for YOU doing YOUR side of the deal.
The rest? Let her cope on her own stuff. With her individual business, and her holding up her end of the shared business.
You do not have to participate. What stops you from saying "It is X o'clock at night. I will not have this discussion at this time. We both need sleep. We can talk at _________. I am going to sleep." And then leave the room and go to sleep?
When people are HALT --(hungry, angry/anxious, lonely, tired) is NOT the best time to be doing relationship management talks.
Or if she's emotionally flooding, what stops you from holding her hand and saying "I think you are flooding. I am not going to talk. I am only going to comfort by holding your hand for 20 minutes and breathe quietly with you. Then we are going to sleep and we will sort it out in the morning."
All relationships come with a clock attached. Some go long haul some do not. Rather than trying to "mind reader" the future to see if this one is a long haul runner in advance so you can determine whether or not to invest in it? Could just accept you won't know til the end, it isn't knowable this instant.
But if you HOPE to stay together and have it BECOME a long haul thing, behave as though your are both IN IT for the long haul and mean to make good journey together NOW. Rather than be in it half-assed.
The habit of making things out to be "doom" so you can justify half-assed efforts because "it wouldn't have worked anyway? " If that is what you guys do? Then that's (jumping to conclusions) -- another kind of distorted thinking. I encourage you to bring that up in counseling. Because if one or both of you does that kind of distorted thinking, it's more obstacles in the way that need to be addressed so that you can ultimately succeed.
JMHO.
GL!
Galagirl
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seakinganswers
New member
Can you just be our counselor Gala?
I have tried for years to say, it's late lets talk about this tomorrow but it never works. It's funny you said that though because I found a third boundary. Never argue in bed. Once we go to bed, its time to cuddle or sleep or have sex. Anything you have to ask or say that could start an argument should be left alone. Write it down somewhere if you have to and bring it up later. And there should be no problem with saying, "I want to give you an honest answer to that question but if I do it may bring up feelings that would violate our bedroom space, so please ask me tomorrow." The problem is then she won't sleep all night with worry about what the answer is. But I guess that's not really my problem.
I have tried for years to say, it's late lets talk about this tomorrow but it never works. It's funny you said that though because I found a third boundary. Never argue in bed. Once we go to bed, its time to cuddle or sleep or have sex. Anything you have to ask or say that could start an argument should be left alone. Write it down somewhere if you have to and bring it up later. And there should be no problem with saying, "I want to give you an honest answer to that question but if I do it may bring up feelings that would violate our bedroom space, so please ask me tomorrow." The problem is then she won't sleep all night with worry about what the answer is. But I guess that's not really my problem.
You are in bed because you are TIRED and want to sleep. The point is not the bed, but that you are too tired to talk conflict resolution in a good way. What if you are tired at the mall? Tired in the car? Would you want to engage in those places?
So I would put the boundary as "never do conflict resolution when hungry, angry, anxious, lonely or tired. Set a date for this when both can be present and at their best."
Healthy boundaries are there not to trap you two, but to HELP you two relate in a better way. Talk to your counselor about how to make boundaries that can work for you both. If you like "guidelines" or "agreements" better -- use those words instead. But make 'em!
Yup. There should be no problem with postponing a discussion. But sometimes it isn't what you say but HOW you say it that triggers a person.
If you find that putting it that way fuels anxiety witter in her and you don't like her in anxiety witter mode? Find a different way to say it that still gets you the outcome you want -- SLEEP now, talk LATER! -- that isn't triggering her.
If you are struggling with trust issues in the marriage I would suggest not saying things like "I want to give you an honest answer" -- because it makes the anxiety witter person wonder if OTHER times you DON'T give honest answers. You end up shooting yourself in the foot even if you are honest all the time when you put evaluation words on there like that. Because it helps ADD to her anxiety witter rather than take AWAY from it.
Maybe use a different word -- "not rushed answer" or "answer when I'm tired/groggy"
"I want to give you an answer that isn't rushed because I'm tired and want sleep. Let's do this in the morning and sleep now."
Maybe skip using "honest" entirely.
"I want to give you an answer, but not at this time. I am tired. Let's do this in the morning."
Change it all to I-statements. Maybe something like
"I am exhausted and not at my best listening as a result. I want to give you my best listening. Let's wait til tomorrow so you can have the best of me and not a tired me."
Or uber simple. Person, time, place.
"Hon? I'm the right person to have this talk with. This is the right place, at home. This is NOT the right time. We both need sleep."
See what could serve you better.
Are you able to see how your word choices could be contributing to the problems between you? You don't have to walk on eggshells around her, but neither do you have to be making life harder for both of you either if better chosen words or better chosen silence smooths some of the small bumps out. Then you guys can focus on solving the big stuff.
Yup. She can learn to deal with her lack of sleep by taking up knitting, reading a book, doing yoga, taking a sleeping pill -- many choices. You can demonstrate care and concern by offering to tuck her in or bring her tea, but then after that -- GO TO BED! You need sleep. Meet your own need.
Problems are
- important and urgent
- important but not urgent
- not important, but urgent
- not important, not urgent
They cannot ALL be at the "important and urgent" level or else one lives in a chronic state of crisis. That's not healthy.
If you are home safe, and she's home safe, and it's a problem about keeping your word and being home on time? Could call it "important, but not urgent."
You both can sleep on it and deal with it in the morning just as well or better. There's no fire.
Galagirl
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