[Heck] Yes, or No!

hyperskeptic

New member
Vix pointed this out to me:

http://markmanson.net/fuck-yes/

At the moment, it strikes me as the best new-relationship (or wanna-relationship) advice I've ever come across.

It's simple and it saves time. It prevents game-playing and heartbreak and creepiness.

Above all, it puts consent right up front and takes away a lot of the ambiguity about it.
 
I totally just sent that to one of the most persistent guys I've met on OKC. I've even told him point blank I'm just not interested, but he keeps insisting he can be whatever I want. LOL.
 
I totally just sent that to one of the most persistent guys I've met on OKC. I've even told him point blank I'm just not interested, but he keeps insisting he can be whatever I want. LOL.

That's a good use for it. I'd like to send it personally to everyone currently on OKC, and any poly dating site, and . . .
 
As a non-game player and honest person, I completely agree with the advice. I also think that looking for the positive in people is great but also be realistic and there is no need to rush into things.
 
I totally just sent that to one of the most persistent guys I've met on OKC. I've even told him point blank I'm just not interested, but he keeps insisting he can be whatever I want. LOL.
Why are you even having conversations with him? Block him. Then you never have to see his stupidity again.
 
I liked the article. Gala girl wrote something similar using the phrase "joyous yes",
I took that on board and use it. Highly applicable to dating.
 
I have read it before, and I agree completely with it. If they (or you) can't give an enthusiastic yes, that's a good sign you need to not move forward. It doesn't necessarily mean you need to back up. Sometimes you just need to stand still.

Kind of like holding a kid back from moving to the next grade. If it's not enthusiastic yes, it's not time to move forward.
 
Not my type of advice. I'd play games instead to check their persistence. If they fail those I'd have no interest in them. People that instantly says "Yes" are superficial and I don't want to waste any time on them.

OTOH, part of the games (flirting) is that they need to reciprocate, but I don't want anybody that would go all the way very quickly.
 
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Not my type of advice. I'd play games instead to check their persistence. If they fail those I'd have no interest in them. People that instantly says "Yes" are superficial and I don't want to waste any time on them.

People who play games are superficial and I don't want to waste my time on them.

I really don't understand this viewpoint. I know it's not uncommon but I find it to be unhealthy.
 
People who play games are superficial and I don't want to waste my time on them.

Why? I want somebody that is willing to put down some effort, and I don't like it when they move too fast. I think the contact phase is the best part of it, so I want it to last for a while.

I really don't understand this viewpoint. I know it's not uncommon but I find it to be unhealthy.

I find it healthy. It will weed out luck-seekers and abusers alike, as they won't be likely to put down a lot of effort in you without any promises (or for that matter sex).
 
Game players are a pain in the ass. Playing a fucking game is not the same as making an effort or enjoying the journey to knowing someone - game playing is just manipulation. And that is one big yawn. Boring. Stifling. Frustrating. Not healthy.

People who are direct, honest, and a YES to life are awesome.
 
Why? I want somebody that is willing to put down some effort, and I don't like it when they move too fast. I think the contact phase is the best part of it, so I want it to last for a while.

I find it healthy. It will weed out luck-seekers and abusers alike, as they won't be likely to put down a lot of effort in you without any promises (or for that matter sex).

It might help to think of it this way: While Manson focuses a lot on saying "[Heck] Yes!" to jumping in the sack together, "The Law of [Heck] Yes or No" applies to any decision about any relationship.

You (and the other person) can say "Yes!" to taking a long, sweet time to get to know one another, "Yes!" to finding out what you have in common and figuring out whether you might eventually say "Yes!" to greater intimacy, including physical intimacy.

That's entirely different from playing games in which one party to the relationship puts in place a lot of arbitrary obstacles and "tests" for the other, watching and evaluating to see if the other passes.

That puts all the power on the side of the one setting up the obstacle course.

If you were to ask me, "Would you like to be required to jump through a lot of hoops to prove you live up to some entirely arbitrary standard of effort and commitment and then put up with me moving the goal posts from time to time while keeping score anyway?" my answer would be, "F**k NO!"
 
It might help to think of it this way: While Manson focuses a lot on saying "[Heck] Yes!" to jumping in the sack together, "The Law of [Heck] Yes or No" applies to any decision about any relationship.

You (and the other person) can say "Yes!" to taking a long, sweet time to get to know one another, "Yes!" to finding out what you have in common and figuring out whether you might eventually say "Yes!" to greater intimacy, including physical intimacy.

That was kind of what I meant. I'm shy, so I want a lot of time before I commit to something, and I also think this is the best time before you enter into a relationship and all the potential problems of that. I even prefer some time before I want to talk to somebody, the longer the better, more or less. That doesn't mean I'm playing games. Of course, while we're still in the non-verbal stage, we need to arrange contact without setting up dates verbally, which is kind of interesting in itself, and that's basically what is testing the willingness of the other person to put down some effort. I don't think that is a game. At least it is not an arbitrary game that I'm setting up for testing somebody.

That's entirely different from playing games in which one party to the relationship puts in place a lot of arbitrary obstacles and "tests" for the other, watching and evaluating to see if the other passes.

That puts all the power on the side of the one setting up the obstacle course.

If you were to ask me, "Would you like to be required to jump through a lot of hoops to prove you live up to some entirely arbitrary standard of effort and commitment and then put up with me moving the goal posts from time to time while keeping score anyway?" my answer would be, "F**k NO!"

Same here. That's not what I meant, but I suppose it might become misinterpreted like that though.

Maybe I misinterpreted the "[Heck] Yes or No" idea, but to me it sounded an awfully lot like if you don't want to jump in bed within five minutes, then it's a "No", or if you don't want to talk and date within five minutes the answer will also be "No".

But if it is instead applied to if the other person is not willing to flirt with me, or perhaps only does it occasionally when nothing more interesting is around, then it is a "No" for me too. It could applied to that, but nothing in the description says it can be. It's just about speeding up the process and I don't think that is very healthy. For me this leads to superficial decisions. Even if society thinks that time is the most important thing, and we always need to be efficient and use time efficiently, I refuse to apply this to relationships. Forming a relationship isn't (and shouldn't) be about time-management and be handled like some commercial project which already should be done before it is even started. The same goes for my hobbies. I refuse to apply time-management techniques on those as well. They are and should be pleasurable activities without time constraints.
 
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Maybe I misinterpreted the "[Heck] Yes or No" idea, but to me it sounded an awfully lot like if you don't want to jump in bed within five minutes, then it's a "No", or if you don't want to talk and date within five minutes the answer will also be "No".

But if it is instead applied to if the other person is not willing to flirt with me, or perhaps only does it occasionally when nothing more interesting is around, then it is a "No" for me too. It could applied to that, but nothing in the description says it can be. It's just about speeding up the process and I don't think that is very healthy. For me this leads to superficial decisions. Even if society thinks that time is the most important thing, and we always need to be efficient and use time efficiently, I refuse to apply this to relationships. Forming a relationship isn't (and shouldn't) be about time-management and be handled like some commercial project which already should be done before it is even started. The same goes for my hobbies. I refuse to apply time-management techniques on those as well. They are and should be pleasurable activities without time constraints.

I think the "law" works especially well on dating sites, like OKC. If I write to someone who does not reply, that's clearly a "no". If I write to someone who writes back and then, after an exchange of a few notes, she stops writing . . . I should take that as a "no", too, and just let go of it.

If she isn't already intrigued or interested enough to maintain communication, nothing I can write is likely to change that.

At that stage, it's a long way from being about hopping in the sack or about marriage or even about dating. The question is put to the other person: "Am I interesting enough to you that you'll write back?"

If her answer is "meh", then I should hear that as a "no" and give my attention to other things of importance in my life.

If guys on OKC would follow the "law" from the first, OKC would be a lot less creeptastic than it is for women.

At the same time, I can ask of myself, "Is this person interesting or intriguing enough to engage in an email conversation, regardless of where it might lead?"

I've met many women that way regarding whom my answer would be "meh." I should let those go, and move on.

But, then, I just met someone on OKC of whom I answer "yes! and yes! and yes!"

(Sorry, I can't help but think of Molly Bloom - from Ulysses - here.)

She seems to respond the same way to me, writing back with enthusiasm.

Or, she did. I haven't heard from her in a while, though I'll wait and see. She may just be very busy this week.
 
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At the same time, I can ask of myself, "Is this person interesting or intriguing enough to engage in an email conversation, regardless of where it might lead?"

I've met many women that way regarding whom my answer would be "meh." I should let those go, and move on.

But, then, I just met someone on OKC of whom I answer "yes! and yes! and yes!"

(Sorry, I can't help but think of Molly Bloom - from Ulysses - here.)

From James Joyce, Ulysses:

. . . the watchman going about serene with his lamp and O that awful deepdown torrent O and the sea the sea crimson sometimes like fire and the glorious sunsets and the figtrees in the Alameda gardens yes and all the queer little streets and pink and blue and yellow houses and the rosegardens and the jessamine and geraniums and cactuses and Gibraltar as a girl where I was a Flower of the mountain yes when I put the rose in my hair like the Andalusian girls used or shall I wear a red yes and how he kissed me under the Moorish wall and I thought well as well him as another and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes.
 
I'm probably the wrong generation for doing online dating. At least, I would not consider this for a relationship. It works well with friendships, and "[Heck] Yes or No" could be used there too. I mean, I have a female professor that I email a lot with, and she is one of few close friends I have. She always does her best to answer my issues, and so do I with hers.

The problem with online dating is that I will miss all of the fun making contact, because I have to become verbal and possibly exchange much of the information I would do in the dating phase. I prefer to do that IRL rather than online. After all, I cannot do non-verbal flirting online.

Online dating might be effective in reaching a large pool of potential partners, but quantity is not everything. I value commitment and effort more than just superficial matches of traits. These things cannot be measured in self-reports online.
 
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