Hello from the UK

[Ellipsis]

Good afternoon all, not sure where to start, so I'll do my best to describe my current situation, background and ultimate aims, in the hope of seeking guidance from more experience people who have been in similar situations and in time to share my own experiences, hopefully to the benefit of others.

The basics are that I am a straight male in a loving relationship with a happily married lady and by association, her husband.

We are all new to this type of relationship and are finding our feet as we go, with the attendant stumbles you would typically expect and I gather from reading around are to be expected and negotiated.

The couple made the joint decision to open their relationship a year ago, originally to explore swinging with couples only. A few couples were met, but the chemistry never quite worked out for all concerned, play was only between the ladies.

Then I came along (then single, married ten years, separated), she & I met online, struck up an immediate rapport that quickly led to us meeting and spending time together with her, her husband and children over the summer.

It was communicated to me from the outset by both parties that what they were looking for was a long-lasting relationship that went beyond just sex and that was every bit as important.

The following meeting went very well, we had fun and feelings continued to grow between the wife and I, to a point where hubby began to really struggle. Sharing her body was fine, but her heart and mind are more challenging.

After I left them, it became apparent that the two of them had distinctly different ideas about opening their marriage. For him, it was meant to be just about sex and fun, however for her she wanted a lover, in time a second husband and possibly an extended family too.

We continued talking, they took time alone to refocus and reground themselves as a married couple and agreed that we would continue to pursue this relationship.

So, we met again with the understanding that we would all focus on the friendship aspect of things and involving the children more, rather than excluding them from "adult stuff" as we had previously, whilst the lady and I kept a lid on the openness of our feelings for one another.

There are some trust issues for hubby to resolve; from the outset, the wife and I were free to communicate between ourselves, hubby and I communicated between ourselves, we all three together, the introduction and any contact with their children was of course supervised by both of them.

Once the first meeting/visit had occurred and it was established I was not a threat to their children and good basic relationships established, there, was trusted to communicate with them individually too if they wished to do so. They did, have and still do.

However, since she and I fell in love, he has not been OK with us talking privately and it causes friction between each pair to greater or lesser degrees. He and I still communicate privately, so it's a frustration for me that I can communicate freely with the whole household, except the woman I love.

Yet she remains free to talk with other couples and singles if she wishes to, unsupervised by him (as part of the swinging aspect that he wishes to retain and pursue, but she does not until we are at least stable in our relationship, recognising that in itself poses threats to our stability - I have little interest in that side of things, apart from her being free to enjoy another lady now and then because she does have bi-curious tendencies, but isn't looking for a relationship of that kind).

The reason I mention visits and trips is that I am located across the Atlantic from them, but can, have and do travel semi-regularly to spend time with them as needed.

It's challenging. She's struggling because she needs an outlet to talk to that isn't her family, she doesn't have close friends in her life and other acquaintances she can talk to have a slight conflict of interest in so far as they have all been people or couples who have expressed sexual interest in her.

Questions, opinions and suggestions as to how we manage going forward are all welcome.

 

[Spock]

Have her join the board.

I'm in the opposite situation as you. I'm the husband, the wife is looking for a second. We aren't convinced it's going to work the way we want it to, and we are working through the issues that come up.

I started a blog if you want to see what it's like from the husband's perspective

Of course my situation is different too. We can't tell you what it is exactly we want, given it hasn't been a year into the process yet.

My biggest concern out of this entire process is how she will have the time and energy to manage what appears to me a miracle. One relationship is exhausting and draining to her, and I'm not sure why a second would help, other than the fact that there is a short term burst of NRE; once that wears off, it will be twice as much work as what she has to deal with on top of the fact that she has kids and such.

We've brought that up, and we have agreed that maybe it won't work for a long term lover-husband unless he fully commits into our tribe, pulling in a paycheck, helping with childcare, funding retirement, etc.

In other words, instead of two kids and two adults, it's two (possibly a third) and three adults, with the kids interacting with each other too. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with her having another child with another man, either, but that's so far down the road that we have agreed to talk about that later, especially since she celebrates having her period every month meaning she isn't pregnant.

 

[Ellipsis]

I would be interested to read your blog, if you could post or PM me a link I would be grateful.

I think our biggest challenge is rooted in the very different things they both wanted from opening their relationship and the results with which each has been met.

I will share this forum with her in due course. Hopefully him too. At the moment, I think part of the problem is that because we're still in the closet about the true nature of my "friendship" with the family (although coworkers and other family members have their theories...), talking to people outside the relationship/s is challenging for the two of them due to their perception of reactions.

I am fortunate enough to have a pretty open minded circle of friends and can and do discuss issues with them, but not being poly, whilst they can accept it, they can't really help from an experiential point of view as they could otherwise.

 

[Spock]

Here it is.

Yeah, I was struggling at first (well, more than I am now) because I felt isolated and couldn't talk to my wife without getting her upset because she was invested in the situation too.

So just having a sounding board relieved a lot of pressure, and meeting people like you as well, since, well, you're going through this too.

Our current situation isn't the same of course; R2 is a lot more sexually forward and aggressive and appears to have a much lower desire to build a long term relationship with my wife. So my issues are less (at this point) about sharing her heart and mind and more about sharing her body. Not that he won't be affectionate and loving, or that he wouldn't fall in love with her (who wouldn't? She's amazing!), just that his behavior is more physical than emotional at this point.

 

[Ellipsis]

Thanks. It is a different situation, but there are also some echoes with ours.

We are different at how we express affection for her physically, in the every day sense of little touches, hugs, kisses, even looks (it was the looks that gave us away at first meeting) and so on, to the point of having to consciously monitor them the next time around.

In turn, he gave us free time together in person each day as an outlet for that stuff, just to talk, cuddle and be generally loving without overstepping into sexual activity. Next time we're together, he will be working all day and we will be alone together during the day whilst the children are at school as she has taken vacation.

So there's a trust exercise in that we won't step beyond agreed to boundaries when he is not present. He says he trusts us now not to, because he knows we both value the longer-term relationship over the instant gratification of sex by ourselves (currently, sex only happens when he is present, whether directly involved or not).

For the record, we do not intend to break that trust, as hard as it has been to regain after falling in love (that was the only "rule" we broke on first meeting). We actually just want to spend the time as any new couple, getting to know more of each others' pasts, going on dates and so on.

Part of it as you point out is due to NRE vs. a long established marriage, we are effectively where they were at in their first year of courting and dating. Since then, his behaviour started to mirror mine and he couldn't understand why this actually had the opposite effect on her, leaving him feel undesired.

He has said he feels their joint identity as a couple will get lost under the weight of this joint relationship because in her heart & mind, we are much closer to equal than in his and it's hard for him to accept and adjust to when it's something he "never signed up for".

 

[Natja]

Hello there and welcome, there are a few of us over here in Blighty so you're not alone!!!

 

[Spock]

Thanks. It is a different situation, but there are also some echoes with ours.

We are different at how we express affection for her physically, in the every day sense of little touches, hugs, kisses, even looks (it was the looks that gave us away at first meeting) and so on, to the point of having to consciously monitor them the next time around.

In turn, he gave us free time together in person each day as an outlet for that stuff, just to talk, cuddle and be generally loving without overstepping into sexual activity. Next time we're together, he will be working all day and we will be alone together during the day whilst the children are at school as she has taken vacation.

I'm not sure what the issue is? He doesn't like that you are falling in love? Or is his relationship with hers suffering because she isn't as affectionate with him?

So there's a trust exercise in that we won't step beyond agreed to boundaries when he is not present. He says he trusts us now not to, because he knows we both value the longer-term relationship over the instant gratification of sex by ourselves (currently, sex only happens when he is present, whether directly involved or not).

For the record, we do not intend to break that trust, as hard as it has been to regain after falling in love (that was the only "rule" we broke on first meeting). We actually just want to spend the time as any new couple, getting to know more of each others' pasts, going on dates and so on.

Part of it as you point out is due to NRE vs. a long established marriage, we are effectively where they were at in their first year of courting and dating. Since then, his behaviour started to mirror mine and he couldn't understand why this actually had the opposite effect on her, leaving him feel undesired.

This is the confusing part. If he is starting to be more affectionate with her, why is she shutting him out? That seems terribly dishonest/unfair on her part.

He has said he feels their joint identity as a couple will get lost under the weight of this joint relationship because in her heart & mind, we are much closer to equal than in his and it's hard for him to accept and adjust to when it's something he "never signed up for".

And it sounds like, if I read it correctly, she rebuffs him when he tries to invest into their existing relationship. Of course it's hard for him to adjust to that, because she is now preferring you to him, instead of being kind and reciprocating to his advances. Am I misunderstanding your post?

 

[Ellipsis]

I'm not sure what the issue is? He doesn't like that you are falling in love? Or is his relationship with hers suffering because she isn't as affectionate with him?

We weren't ever meant to go as far as falling in love with one another. Meant to be just friends with benefits on an ongoing basis, rather than a one-off. But we did and here we are.

Part of it is due to how and when we get to see each other. Due to geography, it's in periods of a couple of weeks every few months instead of being a constant presence, so at those times she's disproportionately interested in me and he feels like he and their marriage almost ceases to exist by itself.

This is the confusing part. If he is starting to be more affectionate with her, why is she shutting him out? That seems terribly dishonest/unfair on her part.

Because he's not being himself as he's always been, which is the man she knows and loves. Instead he was being more like me. She's trying to get him to see that I'm just different, not better. She loves him just as he is/was and me just as I am.

And it sounds like, if I read it correctly, she rebuffs him when he tries to invest into their existing relationship. Of course it's hard for him to adjust to that, because she is now preferring you to him, instead of being kind and reciprocating to his advances. Am I misunderstanding your post?

She doesn't rebuff him when he tries to invest in their marriage. This weekend just past was dedicated them time, phones off, at home, just the family, me - and a lady he chats to as well as other people - out of the loop.

But he could tell at a few points that she was missing me so much she was brought to tears and that was very hard for him. He wishes he and their family were enough for her.

His problem is not that we have a very close friendship and care for one another. It's not that we have sex either and he trusts us not to break his trust and have it without his knowledge or involvement. It's the "in between stuff" that's too "open", the hugging, holding hands, little meaningful kisses, glances and so on when we're together.

Knowing that we'll be together for most of the daytime during my next visit without the children or him present is presenting him with a big issue in that respect, because he knows we'll be spending it not fucking, but doing the rest of stuff that new lovers do, walks in the park, lunch together, and so on.

 

[Spock]

Ah, I see.

Even more parallels! As the husband, I totally understand, I think, where is he is coming from. The difference is that I have never stopped wanting to hold hands, have lunch together, go walking in the park, etc.

And his attempts to be like you are in fact also understood. He wants to displace you from her heart. It's not unlike a cargo cult, except on a smaller, more personal scale.

In other words, the energy you bring to her, I think, and the affection she returns to you, is what he wants too. In my case the only reason that I am still open to the idea of my wife opening our relationship is because she is in fact returning some of the affection and energy to me, too.

I mean, she gazes longingly at me, she looks into my eyes for no reason other than to catch my gaze, she holds hands with me, we walk together, and this is something I have been wanting/asking for years now. It's terribly selfish of me to steal this from whomever she is dating, but I don't know how I can blame myself for it either because I am still madly in love with her.

She needs a voice in this conversation however. Does she talk to her husband about this? That maybe she needs to be someone different too? You said,

Because he's not being himself as he's always been, which is the man she knows and loves. Instead he was being more like me. She's trying to get him to see that I'm just different, not better. She loves him just as he is/was and me just as I am.

But that disagrees with your later point:

he knows we'll be spending it not fucking, but doing the rest of stuff that new lovers do, walks in the park, lunch together, and so on.

He may not be saying it out loud, but it sounds like he wants to be the new lover; why isn't she indulging him? What is wrong with walking in the park, having lunch together, etc?

Or are you saying they do, in fact, already do that?

 

[kdt26417]

Greetings Ellipsis,
Welcome to our forum.

I am following your story (and convo with Spock) with interest. The combination of your posts alternating with Spock's seems to cast a 3D light on the situation by way of differing perspectives and how they can interact synergistically.

The upshot is that I am struck by two immediate apparencies:

• your girlfriend wants two differing relationships with two differing men;
• her husband wants the kind of relationship that he observes between you and her, and to obtain it, he's virtually trying to *be* you (or a virtual clone of you).

Which of course puts her off since she wants him to be himself, yet he envies what he sees between her and you so he tries even harder to imitate you, which puts her off all the more and then he has even less of a relationship/romance of any kind with her, so then he tries anew, even harder, to imitate you, which puts her off even more and ... well, you can see where that's going.

I wonder if an increase/improvement in communication wouldn't help break that vicious circle. Has he tried asking her, "I see you and Ellipsis holding hands, exchanging looks, taking walks, kissing, etc. ... Could you and I do more of that? I am envious of the PDA's that you and Ellipsis share." If he has, what was her answer? or, as Spock wondered, is she already sharing the same kinds of PDA's with him that she is with you?

If it was he who initiated the vicious circle while she was already giving him the same PDA's as she gave you, then there must be something else he wants (that "being you" will get him, he believes). Perhaps he simply doesn't want to "be your equal" in her eyes, he wants to be "greater than you" in her eyes, therefore he actually tries to be both himself and you towards her? If so, then he's trying to get her to perceive that, "Hey, I get everything I want and more with my husband, whereas with Ellipsis, I get only half of that."

In my 5+ years of poly forum involvement, I've observed that it's very common for a married couple, or (as perhaps in this case) just one of the spouses in a married couple, to want the marriage to be held as superior (a.k.a. primary though primary can have other subtle meanings) over all other romantic relationships each of the two spouses may maintain. Sometimes this stems from insecurity: "Polyamory scares me, but as long as I know the marriage ultimately trumps all, then I'll feel secure enough to try polyamory." Other times it's simply because the marriage is seen (and believed in) as definitively superior. Or it can result from a sort of mind block, such as, the ingrained/conditioned belief that monogamy is "how it's supposed to be," and therefore, the leap to egalitarian polyamory is too far for the mind to navigate.

I'm wondering if your girlfriend and her husband see matters differntly in that regard; that is, maybe she sees marriage as just one of many kind of romantic relationships, to be held equal as a whole with additional polyamorous relationships, whereas he sees marriage as a kind of sacred ground, not to be crossed by any other romantic relationships. I think you mentioned that he's of a relatively swing mindset, compared to her relatively polyamorous mindset. Swingers frequently (almost by definition) hold "the original married couple" as special and sacred, never to be challenged by any other romantic relationship, which is surely one reason why a swinging (usually married) couple agrees to "play with others, but not fall in love with those others."

If all that is the case, then your girlfriend's husband might be looking at his wife and thinking, "Hey! She's breaking the rules! She's falling in love with this guy. Our marriage is no longer the only romance in her life. Its specialness and sacredness is being threatened by this equilaterality that she's trying to impose between Ellipsis and me. I must stop her! I must save the sanctity of this marriage. Somehow I must convince her that I am the superior of her two romantic partners. Only then will the marriage's proper place in the scheme of things be restored."

If, when it comes down to it, your girlfriend really wants polyamory while her husband wants swing, then a huge change in the shape of things must occur. She and he must agree to let her be "fully polyamorous" while he remains a "swinging monogamist," one of them must change their mind about whether swing or polyamory is their thing, they must part ways, or they must stay locked in combat over the issue for the rest of their lives.

The first change described above would probably be the best outcome, while the last change described above would probably be the worst outcome. But to get "the first change" (agreeing to become a poly/swing couple) to fly, he as well as she has to be willing to make that change. To me, it sounds like he's not willing to do that -- at least not yet. Hence all the friction and struggling (and the vicious circle) between him and her. Right now I think they're in a period of transition and are each trying to decide which of the changes described above they want to pursue. Until they can agree on one course of change to take, they'll certainly continue to strive and struggle with (themselves and) each other ... and you, indirectly, will be "drawn into that struggle" by way of how its manifestations affect you.

Example: Right now, there are limitations imposed on you (by your girlfriend's husband) about what kinds of romantic love you can physically share with her, how, where, and when. These (to my mind) are signs that he doesn't *really* like what's going on here, even if he professes consent to it. Perhaps he even believes he consents but there, nagging him in the back of his mind, is that shadowy imp that whispers, "You don't want this. It isn't good for you. It's not healthy. It won't end well." Et cetera.

There's really no easy way for anyone to solve such an impasse, you least of all because you're not directly involved in it. Honestly about the best you can do is, nurture your romance with your girlfriend as best you can under the circumstances, try to continue to show her husband that you're his friend, and be there to lend a sympathetic-but-neutral ear (and maybe even a shoulder to cry on) to either of them, if and whenever they might need that from you. You can certainly counsel them (if they ask for your counsel) on what you believe would be best for the three of you, but ultimately they do remain "the married couple" and as such, must make (jointly we all hope) the big decisions about polyamory on their own. This process may take awhile, and will probably be stressful for all three of you.

Well that's the most "advice" (actually it's mostly just food for thought) I can post for you for right now. Keep us updated on how things are going, and hopefully new solutions will present themselves (whether it be through us, straight to you, or both).

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Ellipsis]

Apologies for the delayed response, thank you for the time and consideration that has gone into those responses. Naturally it's a constantly moving situation, but Kevin you have hit the nail on the head in so many areas with that post.

She wants he and I to have equal standing in her life, two husbands (in practice, if not law, since current legislation precludes bigamy) to all practical intents and purposes.

He is currently struggling to accept that he alone is "not enough" for her, why she and I need to have a romantic relationship that goes beyond just friends who fuck, which is what he "signed up for". He was prepared to share her body (under restricted conditions), but not her heart. We broke "the rules" and that trust by falling for one another beyond a basic physical and satiation level. We found an emotional connection, right from the start and in retrospect he has seen how far back it went.

Your paragraphs regarding the two of them reaching resolution about what they want now - seeing as we can't go back in time and alter what has happened and a time of transition is absolutely spot on. This is where we are and those are the choices before them/us all.

It transpires that she has wanted such a domestic arrangement since before they even met. He says if he had known that at the outset (17 years and two children ago), he would not have pursued a relationship with her.

So there are some deep and historic factors emerging that need resolving between the two of them before we can all move forward together, or she and I can build further on the relationship we are trying to establish in parallel with her marriage.

I respect the need for them to have time dedicated to maintaining their own romantic relationship & sex life and even suggested an evening a week and a weekend per month where she and I are out of touch (by phone, for 6 weeks out of every 8, the Atlantic is between us) and they focus on just them and family time, because the more stable they are as a couple, the happier we all are interacting at the friend level together.

Yet when the shoe is on the other foot and we try to have a two hour IM chat by ourselves (whether it's entirely normal chat or takes a turn for the sexual), even though she is still physically with him in the same room, it results in tension and resentment from him. She "smiles too much", apparently. We used to be free to chat privately, prior to us admitting the emotional connection, ever since then, he had to have oversight. Yet she is free to chat to anybody else unsupervised, as she always has been (she no longer does, again this frustrates him as it takes away "his" swing ambitions - she's no longer interested in it, at least until we are established and solid). This in turn fosters resentment between us and him and introduces a tension between her and I as knowing your talk may be read later, can serve to stifle things and make it unnatural.

The unfortunate irony being that his attempts to control/moderate her expressed thoughts, feelings and behaviours in respect of me, are actually serving to drive the two of them further apart.

She's tried explaining it to him as akin to how they felt when they had one child. They loved it completely. But when the second came along, that amount of love was not halved, or even lessened at all. The second child was equally loved. That is how she feels about the two of us.

This weekend has seen some heavy discussion between all concerned as can be expected.

His struggle is granting the two of us time and space to develop further a relationship that he at a level still sees as a threat to their marriage, despite me being wholly content to be added to the status quo, rather than chosen over it. I think he sees himself as therefore being complicit in his own downfall.

During my next two week visit, she and I will be alone together for the time the children are at school for 7 work days, this is a big step. He says he trusts us not to have sex behind his back, because we both value the longer term potential relationship too much to throw it away for short term selfish gratification (which is true). But he knows its time we will spend "falling further in love", regardless of that. The little looks, hugs, touches, hand holding etc.

Feels like we're damned either way & he's trying to reverse-engineer us back to friends with benefits - which we never actually were.

 

[kdt26417]

Part 1 of 2

No prob on the delay; expect delays without notice often from me, especially as I'm on the cusp of moving from Albuquerque to Seattle. Ohhh, the chaotic uncertainty! though I believe it'll be worth it.

Well Ellipsis, you seem to have a keen awareness of the rough road(s?) that lies ahead for all three of you. Your girlfriend's husband's affinity for swing isn't a demon to be exorcised, but it does present all three of you with a riddle to figure out. Starting with, can this legally-wed couple remain together (with their now diverse approaches at lust and love) and be happy in so doing? They should probably decide that first before tackling other parts of the riddle, as polyamory cries out for a solid foundation in one's existing relationships before venturing out into the word of new poly relationships.

If they choose to part, then I hope they can do so amicably, understanding that fault is not to be found here, beyond the Fates and their whims as they decide that this gene or that gene will be woven into the soul of the next babe to be born. Your girlfriend and her husband may simply be not meant to remain together til death do them part. If they are both fixed in "poly must be" and "poly must not be" mindsets, then the most loving (and probably most painful) thing they could do for each other is to bless each other as they separarte and walk new and differing paths in life. I think that right now, they are struggling hard to remain man and wife, despite the conundrum of their differing approaches to lust and love.

This conundrum is one I hope they'll solve as a team, with you standing by their side (across the sea) as a moral support. Begrudge not your girlfriend's husband for struggling so with the generally-recognized principles of polyamory. Swing has its principles too, and many polyamorists struggle to understand them. Sometimes hearts from such seemingly opposing worlds can find ways to weave their lives together, but other times those hearts must love each other enough to set each other free. Such, I think, is the case here. It's a hard riddle to solve, and probably won't be solved without pain, sorrow, and contention. Be patient as your two married friends do battle (in concert and sometimes in discord) with the fear of breaking up. A marriage is never a bond to be laid aside lightly.

If they choose to remain wed, they must do so with a whole new understanding and acceptance of each other. On a few threads I've mentioned that poly and swing can overlap. I've known couples who fall in love with new partners, yet who also frequent swing events just to play and have fun with themselves and others. In a comparable fashion, your girlfriend and her husband need to find a way to combine their contrasting outlooks on love, sex, and romance in a way that is creative and uniquely suited for them (and you). Yet another hard riddle to solve, and if they solve that, they'll still have to endure pain, sorrow, and contention. It's nothing less than reality they join in battle, and friendly fire from each other will be part of the reality of that war.

My mind often thinks upon NASA's (and space agencies' throughout the world) dream of setting a human foot on the sands of Mars, then returning that foot and its owner safely back into the arms of their family and friends here on Earth. The challenge of a manned-Mars mission is gravely underestimated by most Earthlings, and as such, I think we should stop saying, "NASA has gave up on the glorious, awesome, inspirational endeavor to prove that humans can visit other worlds and come back alive." No such thing has occurred. NASA totally sees a manned Mars mission in its future, and is constantly tinkering with the just-out-of-reach technologies to make that mission happen.

To give you a brief idea: Flying to the Moon involves orbiting the Earth, revving up the engines to escape Earth orbit at just the right speed, rising higher and higher until, just when Earth's gravity would start pulling the ship back, the ship crosses an invisible threshhold between two worlds and the Moon sucks the ship into a Lunar orbit.

Mars can't be reached in such a "simple" way, not without uncounted unnecessary costs and risks to the mission. The most efficient way to get humans (and robots?) to Mars is to establish the ship into a new orbit around the Sun, a noticeably elliptical orbit, an orbit that touches both Earth's orbit and then, at its furthest point from the Sun, Mars' orbit. The Sun then helps propel the ship "towards Mars" in a way that uses much less fuel.

From there, it's all about the timing. Making sure the ship and Mars (and the ship and Earth on the ship's return journey) arrive at the same points in their orbits at the same time. Due to all this necessary timing, I seem to recall that a manned Martian mission will take about 2+ years total. Compare that to a week or two to get to the Moon and back: What a contrast!

The initial manned Mars mission ship that blasts off from Earth must be the size of an aircraft carrier. Imagine lifting something that big off the ground and increasing the speed of its ascent til it reaches orbital space and speed! The size and scope of the project is so big that the United States will have to humble itself enough to share the cost (and select many of its crew members) from many other countries. Right now, NASA estimates that six crewmembers will be onboard the ship.

And details abound to harry the project. How to keep a human sane and healthy for such a long stay away from Earth? The ISS has helped NASA solve part of that problem, but far from all of it. For example, extended life in a space vessel seems to have an adverse effect on astronauts' eyes and vision. We don't yet quite understand why that happens, let alone how to fix or compenstate for it. But we've solved many other life-in-space problems, and NASA is confident that solutions will be found to the eye/vision problem as well.

Oh and by the way. The ISS, shuttles, etc. often have parts that wear out or malfunction and need to be replaced, and of course even the smartest of humans will make mistakes. But to get a human to the surface of Mars and back, there must be zero mistakes and zero malfunctions. Surely that's the biggest complication of all!

Of course arguments are made that there's no logical reason for a human to walk on Mars. Robots have been sent there and are already investigating its surface. But sometimes humanity needs a great big cosmic rush, the kind of rush we got during Neil Armstrong's "one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind." Well, polyamory is often seen as illogical, even wasteful. Yet many polyamorists pull it off every day with grace and aplomb.

My apologies for the tangent, but I just want to say that for you, your girlfriend, and her husband, this is a Mars mission. Highly complex and a massive endeavor that will require much cooperation when diplomatic measures seem to fall on their face. And I encourage you to catch the bug of optimism that always seems to infect NASA. No matter how impossible something seems, believe that you can do it. Keep planning. Keep chipping away at the problems. And as in baseball, always keep your eye on the prize.

[continued below]

 

[kdt26417]

Part 2 of 2

[continued from above]

I fear that many monogamists will always cling to, and struggle with, the conviction that they're "not enough" for their poly partner. After all, if they were enough, their partner wouldn't need to look elsewhere for more happiness and fulfillment, would they? They often don't understand that they don't have to be enough. They just have to be the "perfect" self they already were for their partner. In polyamory we tend to believe that we can have more than one perfect match waiting for us out there. So you can be perfect for your girlfriend, and her husband can be perfect for her at the same time. She is desiring to adopt two versions of "perfect" into her life. But how to explain that to her husband in a way that won't make him feel demoted? To him, if the marriage isn't special above all other things, then he must be doing something wrong.

The first hurdle is helping him understand the "intellectual principles" of polyamory. If he can vault those hurdles, then "feeling it in his heart" will be the next hurdle, and it's a much taller hurdle. For a monogamous (swing or otherwise) spouse, it's like climbing K2 for that spouse to try to make peace with the new paradigm of polyamory in his heart. It takes heroic generosity for a monogamous spouse to "let" his spouse live polyamorously.

Truly your girlfriend's husband didn't sign up for this, so his back is really up against a wall. No ultimatum has been spoken, yet he feels the opposing pulls of an unspoken ultimatum: If he can't find it in his heart to accept and live with his wife's polyamorous desires, then he will surely lose his wife someday, as she'll probably only more and more want to put polyamory to work in her life. What I'm saying is: if he does end up accepting this, thank him like hell. No one but him can imagine what a generous sacrifice that is.

Re:

"It transpires that she has wanted such a domestic arrangement since before they even met. He says if he had known that at the outset (17 years and two children ago), he would not have pursued a relationship with her."

Important question: Did she know (17 years and two children ago) that she was going to end up wanting such a poly domestic arrangement? If so, then she should have told him right then, and in all fairness, she owes him a jumbo apology. But regardless, this desire of hers has heated up to critical mass, and she and he must figure out how they're going to contain the boiling kettle.

It sounds like you're working out the best deal you can with them, giving them plenty of time to focus on each other, so they can work through this fundamental difference they've encountered in their life perspectives, as well as console each other and nurture some closeness. As is often the case in poly, their strong foundation in their relationship is what will prepare them to embrace you into the romantic realm of their family.

True, the husband here isn't giving you a fair share of your own time with the lady, but you must understand, he probably thinks/feels that as the husband, he's *entitled* to the lion's share of her time and attention. Sucky position for him to put you (and her) in, but there's no guarantee he'll be able to bend on his monogamous principles at all.

Re:

"She 'smiles too much,' apparently."

Yeah, that's a pretty rotten accusation of him to hit her with. Almost as bad as accusing her of breathing too much.

Remember again, she is in love with you which is a whole different ballgame (especially in her husband's eyes) to the casual relationships she has with other men. He *really* doesn't want this thing between you and her to happen, so he's resisting it to the bitter end.

Re:

"The unfortunate irony being that his attempts to control/moderate her expressed thoughts, feelings and behaviours in respect of me, are actually serving to drive the two of them further apart."

Out-of-control jealousy tends to do that. The jealous party squeezes their spouse tighter and tighter in their possessive fist until their spouse starts squeezing back out between their fingers. People weren't meant to be controlled. Not really. They were meant to make their own independent decisions, using their own heart and wisdom. Take that away from someone, and sooner or later they might just get the chance to rebel.

Re:

"She's tried explaining it to him as akin to how they felt when they had one child. They loved it completely. But when the second came along, that amount of love was not halved, or even lessened at all. The second child was equally loved. That is how she feels about the two of us."

And what's his response to that? I know that many people have decided the seemingly-perfect child analogy isn't the best after all. For one thing, lots of people feel that romantic love doesn't work the same way as parental love. For another thing, lots of people point out that the first child may *feel* less loved than he/she used to feel, due to the second child now getting a whole lot of the parents' time and attention that used to all go exclusively to the first child. Sometimes I think some people feel that even if "love is infinite" in theory so to say, in practice that "platitude" doesn't help much because, well, "I want her to be spending time with *me!* not *him!*"

In some cases jealousy can be a reasonable response to a truly unfair situation. Or, as in this case, it can perhaps be a sign to the jealous party that this really isn't a situation he can live with.

I just don't think he comprehends how you and his wife can even be in love. He just can't wrap his mind around it. It's unthinkable. It's as beyond the scope of his imaginative capacities as is visualizing a hypersphere. He just might be too darn monogamous for this!

But only time will tell.

Please keep us updated, and I wish you the best.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.