Here we go again...

[Oly1]

So, short version of my previous posts: after 8 y of declaring our relationship is "open" but not doing much about it (apart from openly talking about our crushes for other women), my wife's crush showed interest in her and they got together.

Coral, this other person, is cheating on her wife Daisy to do so.
Rose, my wife, decided she wants this bad enough to ignore the moral aspects.
I am not happy with it, voiced my opinion on the cheating being wrong and having possible disastrous effects on both their lives (it's a work romance, Coral has kids), but am willing to tolerate this "relationship," as I feel I have very little choice in the matter. I'll take knowing and hating it over being lied to or left for the rush of NRE any day.

We struggled for about a month with the switch from theory to practice, discovered it is way harder than anticipated, and many issues - personal and couple level, were brought up by this (my fucked-up childhood and general mistrust of people, her problems accepting her sexual needs, our difficulties with "switching places" in recent years in our inner-couple power-balance and so on...). We did an OK job communicating about it for the most part, and if nothing else, learned that everything gets better once discussed.

As far as I was concerned, we were testing the waters, trying to figure out what our boundaries were, and how much is helpful to know. But Rose was struggling with (my) pain and (her) guilt and (our) issues, and was looking for a quick-solve, and at one point freaked out she might be losing me and decided to call it quits with Coral.

This brought on two horrible (!) weeks. At first, I tried helping Rose with her "breakup". But it didn't seem to get better. She kept seeing Coral, and having talks with her at work, texting her, and using her Facebook account as a communication channel via songs she posted, likes and so on.

I felt she wasn't at all committed to getting over it, or worse- she was blaming me for the relationship's end, though I never asked her to stop seeing Coral, or stop sleeping with her. What troubled me most was I felt she was never 100% with me, and she kept hurting me by trying to pretend it was all over, losing interest while we were talking because someone texted, obsessing over her Facebook and pretending it had nothing to do with wanting to see what Coral was up to when asked (she later admitted what I knew), and generally giving me very little positive attention. Oh, and when we had sex it felt like she was "coming to work", only trying to satisfy me, but having no real interest.

In short, it sucked.

So after a big fight over her pinning and longing for Coral, when we were supposed to be enjoying our time together on the weekend, and me feeling unwanted and replaceable, we totally stopped talking for 2 days. This was mostly my fault, and I am working on my tendency to "clam-up" when hurt badly, but I will say I've found it very hard to talk to Rose the last few weeks. She would either try to avoid the subject of her still wanting Coral, and hide it from me (mainly to "spare my feelings"), or resort to a childish "But I wanna!" position, which was hard to communicate with. I also found it hard to tell her, "If you want it so bad, go get it" because 1) I was relived it (and the pain it was causing) was over for now, and 2) I hate that she's enabling a cheater and risking her career, and I do think ending it was the right choice.

So today we finally talked again. And we both realized Rose was indeed not committed to the decision she made to give it up. She claims having sex with Coral once a week helps her get all the NRE "out of her system", and giving up on it while still wanting it badly was driving her crazy. She also admitted she did not spend enough energy on working on our relationship in this difficult time, and promised she wanted to work on it this time around, and was sure she would do better with keeping agreements (e.g., no texting when we're on a date). I find it hard to trust that anything will be different, but as stated before, I have some trust issues to work on.

I was clear that I will never truly support a relationship that involves cheating, and would only tolerate it. I also voiced my need to be allowed to feel (and say) it's wrong, or have my own insecurities and issues, without being blamed that I am in some way making/asking her to stop doing what she wants so bad.

So they are going to see each other again. And I hope we handle it better this time around. Any advice or insights?

 

[nancyfore]

If it's not all out in the open, eventually it will end in a mess... We (My hubs Nutbuster and I) have had the experience of the other person in the V that was cheating, and they (Nut and the other end of the V) were co-workers. It was hard for him to get over, it was hard for him to continue while every day telling her to be honest with her boyfriend, and in the end she finally came clean saying that she had no intention of ever being honest with either man in her life. After the breakup (she continued flirting at work) the work environment was strained, and it took a few weeks to get back to a point where work was normal again.

Speaking from experience, nothing should continue unless and until the other person is honest and not cheating. If this person is being dishonest with someone they love already, what guarantees that she will be honest with your wife?

 

[Oly1]

Totally agree

Thank you, Nancyfore. I totally agree with what you've written. I have no doubt this will end in disaster, and I've told Rose that. I also told her I would not trust everything Coral tells her about her marriage (like, "We never ever have sex and therefore STDs are not a concern"), since an untruthful person is probably untruthful in more than the one relationship. Not to mention the fact that because it's a secret we both have to think twice in terms of who we can discuss it with and how truthful we can be with some friends (e.g., from her work). I feel like I'm being pushed back into the closet. It sucks all around.

Problem is, whenever I bring these concerns up, Rose gets very mad at me, and acts as if I am trying to rain on her parade. Which in a way I am! She says she doesn't give a damn about any of it right now. How can I deal with that? I just wait, hoping the fire will at some point relax somewhat, and for my moral, respectful, honest and kind wife to regain her senses. Anything else in your experience I should be doing?

 

[NutBusterX]

Hi Oly,

Reading your story almost makes me shudder, being that I was recently in a situation similar to yours. The main difference was that I was led to believe that my partner had the intent to come clean with her primary. I won't ever put myself in a situation like that again. Period. If I can't be loved out in the open, then so be it.

It's going to get sticky on a bunch of levels. You have stated you're already experiencing some hindrance as to whom you can be truthful with, and how truthful you can be.

I feel like I'm being pushed back into the closet. It sucks all around.

Ugh... poor thing.

Are both of you prepared to be outed as cheaters and/or accomplices?

Unfortunately, most of the advice I can give on this pertains to Rose more than you, and we both know you can't control anyone else.

My advice to you is, don't tolerate it without raising a fit (if at all). The potential price is too high (Coral's kids, Rose's job, your freedom to be truthful at will). Certainly, you don't own her, but you do have ownership in what you'll agree to participate in. If she wanted to steal someone else's puppy, I bet you'd tell her not to. That may sound silly, and I'll get flamed for it, but it's perspective.

If Coral were lying to you, would Rose be her accomplice then too? This all reeks of NRE drunkenness impairing judgement. Big hugs.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Quite frankly, if my husband or my boyfriend got a wild hair up their ass and decided to date someone who was cheating, after I told them it was an issue for me, I would contact the person being cheated on myself.

I don't have the power or right to control other people's choices, but I won't be dragged in as an accomplice to lying.

Additionally, I would stop having sex with my partner until such time as it was resolved reasonably to my standards, because it's not worth the risk to me that both people are cheaters and potentially sending back STIs in my direction.

 

[Oly1]

Thanks, Nut and LovingRadiance. Your comments are really helping me not to feel so alone.

I think I made a mistake the first time around, as I was not clear with myself and Rose on how much the cheating bothered me. When it all started I made an an attempt to add a "no homewrecking" rule to our previously agreed-upon set of rules (it's pretty basic-- no lying, not in our house), but Rose was already drunk with NRE (love this "expression" Nut!) and there was not much of a conversation to be had.

I was later too focused on dealing with the opening up of the relationship, strengthening my poly identity, dealing with my issues, communicating, that I neglected to notice this was not polyamory. This forum (specifically- GalaGirl) helped me a lot with gaining clarity on the matter. So at least now I'm clear. And I won't be pushed into being a happy-go-lucky accomplice. I know I am an accomplice, no less, but at the very least, I'll go down fighting.

I won't "snitch" to Coral's wife, as I don't wanna be the cause of any unnecessary pain. I do think they have some responsibility over their own relationship, and it's not like Rose took the lead in creating this mess. She gave Coral every chance to back off. Also, not surprisingly, this is not the first time Coral has cheated. It sucks, but I wouldn't tell on a cheater to anyone. I'd sooner leave Rose to make her understand how unacceptable this is. I am not doing that, for now, because I feel like nothing is going to stop her at this point. All I can do is give her a hard time, and be patient.

I did have the sense to make Rose ask about the possibility of STDs before they slept together for the first time. And I appreciated the fact she did. That's not an easy question to ask. I don't know how much the answer's really worth, being as she is a liar and I can't imagine a married woman asking her family doctor to test her while she's cheating, but whatever. I asked Rose not to perform certain sexual acts that are more likely to pass stuff, and am hoping she will have enough self control to respect that.

The STD card was useful in explaining to Rose that despite whatever story she and Coral are telling themselves, I am connected to Daisy by virtue of possibly passing an infection all the way down from the person she might be cheating with (who knows?) to me, and the number of liars in between, and what justifications they come up with, won't change that. As well as expressing my concern about being seen as an accomplice when it will all come out.

In the first "wave" Rose and I had a lot of sex, as a form of communicating all the crazy emotions going on, and because frankly Rose is really sexy when she's in NRE, and I needed to feel she still wanted me. This time I really don't see myself having sex or sleeping with her, as I don't feel safe or close to her while she is acting this way. I can't even sleep in the same room. I get mini panic-attacks. I sleep in the guest room.

I hope that might hasten the cooling down of all this NRE, because, to be honest, it is hard for me to see how it will ever cool down when they can only get together once a week, and then have an entire week to re-build the fire, via texting and secret work glances and so on. It is always going to stay unattainable, and therefore sexy. I just hope missing me a little might help Rose get over this crazy infatuation faster.

 

[GalaGirl]

I do think they have some responsibility for their own relationship. It's not like Rose took the lead in creating this mess. She gave Coral every chance to back off.

Not the lead, but still co-created a cheating affair between them.

Not every chance. Not the chance to feel "broken up with Rose, because of my lying and cheating," to see if that modifies her poor conduct.

You could note this.

I asked Rose not to preform certain sexual acts that are more likely to pass stuff, and am hoping she will have enough self control to respect that.

It's easier to control yourself, and say, "No sex with me without barriers, dental dams, gloves, etc.," or perhaps no sex at all until this is resolved.

I don't feel safe or close to her while she is acting this way. I can't even sleep in the same room. I get mini panic-attacks. I sleep in the guest room.

Do what you need to do for your own self care. Sleeping apart to reduce the crazy is a good first step. Time will lead to you the next one.

I just hope missing me a little might help Rose get over this crazy infatuation faster.

For your sake, I hope so too. Sigh. What a mess.

You are in a hard space, peeling onion layers and arriving at new awareness with each one.

Hang in there,
GG

 

[leelee22]

Oly, I'm so sorry you're going through this. Stay strong.

Re: "It is always going to stay unattainable, and therefore sexy" -- this is sometimes really the only advantage the "outside" partner has over the partner on the home front. I say this as a former outside partner. But the thing is, unattainability is not an actual trait of Coral's -- it's not part of her character. It's situational. Whereas the wonderful things that made Rose love you are part of your character. You developed them. They will always be with you.

If she ever "sobers up" she will see that.

I empathize with the sexual safety thing too. I was once married to a really outrageous cheater. (I got so tired, eventually, of all the people ratting him out to me, about so many different women!) But I also had a really awesome family doctor. He was a quiet, older man, the kind of doctor who you'd think would avoid talking about anything sexual with his younger female patients. But after I asked him for a round of STD tests once, he asked a bunch of probing questions and eventually became the one person in my life who pushed me, relentlessly, to get out of my marriage. There was physical abuse, too, and he was the only person who knew about it, because he had to treat me for an injury once. But even before that injury, he was relentless in grilling me: "Are you using condoms with your husband? Are you? Every single time?"

Sometimes I think that the safe-sex stand I took with my ex-husband, because I didn't want to let down that doctor, or have to tell him that I wasn't protecting myself, was the only real stand I ever took in my crappy marriage. Seems pathetic, now. But it made me feel a little bit strong. So, insisting on protecting yourself in your situation may be just as important for your mental health as it is for your physical health.

 

[Oly1]

Leelee, wow. Your story really moved me, and gave me strength. I am glad to hear you're in a better place now.

As I've updated in a different thread, the safe sex issue is even more important than I initially figured, because Coral has admitted to having sex with other people, as well, in the time period she is sleeping with Rose.

So for now we are not having sex at all, and not just for health safety reasons, mainly due to mental health reasons. We're sort of on a break. And I will probably ask for a clean bill of health before I can feel safe with her again.

I do feel kinda stupid about it sometimes, as the chances for lesbians to contract STDs are relatively slim, but still, I am too fond of my private parts being nice and healthy to mess with this sorta thing.

 

[Marcus]

I was clear that I will never truly support a relationship that involves cheating, and would only tolerate it.

Is your support (truly or otherwise) a requirement of her relationships? I mean, I can get that you wouldn't want to actively support (by giving rides, loaning money, etc.) Rose seeing her lover, but do you expect that your personal opinion about what Rose does with her time should be a dealbreaker in her decision-making?

I also voiced my need to be allowed to feel (and say) it's wrong, or have my own insecurities and issues, without being blamed that I am in some way making/asking her to stop doing what she wants so bad.

You're saying a couple of things here which seem to be getting conflated into one idea. Of course you are entitled to your feelings and opinions in all things. No one can give you the right to do that. You just have it.

Calling someone out on what you perceive as conflicting with a moral axiom is another matter. I always concede that someone can express whatever opinion to me they like, whether it is welcome or not. I have, in turn, the right to instruct them to live their own lives, or turn and walk away from them, and adjust the nature of our relationship accordingly. Someone should have enough respect for me to keep from speaking at me in ways I find unpleasant. If they don't, then clearly we are not going to get along for much longer.

So, you can insist on calling Rose out on enabling a cheater, and she (as a fully functional adult) can either tell you to shove it, take it, or adjust the nature of your relationship accordingly. The right to speak one's mind is a two way street.

So they are going to see each other again. And I hope we handle it better this time around. Any advice or insights?

You worry about your relationships, let Rose handle hers.
You worry about your career, let Rose handle hers.
You worry about your emotions, let Rose handle hers.

 

[Oly1]

Hey Marcus. I wish it were as simple as letting her deal with her own relationships and I will worry about mine (which is a basic idea I totally stand by). But it doesn't really work that way in the complex art of living in a life partnership, at least not in our current situation. We and Coral move in the same social circles. If her freedom to date whoever she wants is limiting my freedom not to lie to our friends, is it still only Rose's business?

If I were ever asked, and I accidentally, or on purpose, told someone the wrong thing, and they discovered the affair, I would feel awful. Rose and Coral would be very upset with me. Don't I have a right to be upset with them for putting me in this position in the first place? If I want to discuss our current situation with one of my friends, Rose is asking me not to mention certain things so they won't figure out who is the cheater she's seeing. If I need to explain to a mutual friend why I suddenly come to events without Rose while she's on dates, is it cool that I have to lie for her?

We are new to poly, and we can't even have the "Should we be out of the closet?" discussion, because there is no way we could tell our friends about her seeing someone right now.

And BTW, I know I don't "have to" lie for her, but saying to her "Yu can see whoever you want, but I will tell on you and ruin both your lives the very instant someone asks me the wrong question," is just a passive-aggressive way of saying "This is not cool with me, please stop it," in my opinion.

There's a nice Jewish story about a robber who goes to a rabbi and tells him he wants to change his ways, but finds it overwhelming. The rabbi tells him to only take on himself one vow: to never lie again. The next time the robber is planning a burglary, he suddenly thinks "But what if someone suspects me and I get questioned? I won't be able to lie," so he doesn't commit the crime. And that one decision, to never lie, is what helps him change his ways.

I live by a moral code that says "Never do something you'll be ashamed to tell your loved ones about later." It's why I am poly in the first place. I don't want to lie to Rose or my friends about being attracted to other people, and I don't want to lie about relationships, inside or outside of our house. Should I be forced to actively or passively lend my support to something I find so wrong?

 

[Marcus]

But it doesn't really work that way in the complex art of living in a life partnership. At least not in our current situation. We and Coral move in the same social circles. If her freedom to date whoever she wants is limiting my freedom not to lie to our friends, is it still only her business?

This is a fair distinction.

What my partner does with their time is not under my control (thankfully). If they date someone who is stupid, or irritating, or married, or Canadian (JOKING) I don't care. Who am I to judge them? She's not my employee, she's my girlfriend.

However, someone putting me in the position to have to lie just to stay afloat is not acceptable. THAT is what I would have a problem with. I suggest separating the two issues instead of letting them be squished together.

It's always interesting to me to see people get so emotionally charged about someone having an affair. It would seem to be the response of "If someone can cheat on them, then someone could cheat on me. That frightens me so I'm going to project my fear onto this other person's life." LR would even take it upon herself to reach out to the cheated partner to out the situation. I think it would be wise to consider what it is exactly about this particular situation that causes such a visceral reaction.

People are dishonest in lots of situations and no one seems to care. If your partner is late for a deadline at work they might give a bogus reason that makes them look better than, "Well, frankly, I don't like this job much and was dragging my feet." Would the general response be one of outrage? Would you call your partners employer and let them know that they had been lied to? Of course not. You wouldn't consider it your business.

Should I be forced to actively or passively lend my support to something I find so wrong?

This is the moral outrage I find to be the important question.

Passively? Meaning you would allow it to exist and not take measures to force it to a stop? Are there any other things happening in the world you don't care for? Do you actively try to stop all of them? Why is this one thing so profoundly important to you that you are bursting at the seems to eradicate? Why is merely minding your own business in this regard such a tragedy?

Note that I am separating the issues of you being forced to lie, and someone else doing something that involves lying.

 

[Oly1]

Hi again Marcus,

Guess I didn't write clearly enough. I'll try to do better.

I personally subscribe to the "Monogamy is not for everyone and cheating is better than breaking up a happy home" way of thinking. Or as Esther Perel (recommended read/watch on ted) often puts it, "I don't understand why society is so tolerant of divorce, while so intolerant of affairs."

And I share you wonder as to why people react to it so emotionally, in US culture especially. I'm from other parts of the world... but not Canada (joking).

When I wrote "something so wrong" I did mean me having to lie. I hate lying. It's not good for me, especially to friends and people who are close to me. I was raised in an abusive home and spent most of my life hiding the true nature of my home life from everyone. I was isolated and sad. I never wanna be isolated like that again. I need my friends. I need to be able to talk openly. I didn't do all the work of coming out of the (lesbian) closet just to be pushed into that "reconsider every word you say/constantly monitor who knows what/never let your guard down" place again, and by my wife, no less.

I don't give a damn if some people cheat. I personally have no moral attitude towards the subject, when the person doing it is not part of my life. I don't wanna do it. That's why I'm poly! Rose says she could never do it to me. That's why she is poly. I find it a little weird she does it to someone else (Coral's wife), less because it's inherently "wrong," and more because it will very clearly cause a lot of pain to the cheated-on woman and her entire family if it ever comes out.

Also, Rose and I built our life-partnership on the basis of "doing good in the world." It is the core values of our family that are, in a way, being put to the question.

Rose has been suffering with an identity crisis ever since this started. It makes her wonder who she is, because the person she has been thus far would not hurt a fly, let alone an unsuspecting person.

Again, no moral judgments here. Everybody defines "hurting" and responsibilities towards other humans differently. The hurt I'm speaking of is theoretical (affair is not known, yet) and some people might be fine with only creating a situation that could turn out to be hurtful. It's all debatable (as seen in the "Should we expose all cheaters?" debate in previous posts). It is just that what has being our shared definition of these things is now in dissonance from her behavior. So she can either change the behavior, change the definition. or live with the dissonance. She (and only she) has to chose between these options, or figure out a new one.

I generally like your attitude. I do agree that she is not my employee, and she is a grown up, which is why our conversations on the subject are along the lines of "This is what I need, and how this makes me feel. I am not telling you what to do, but I can't live with lying. Now you need to decide what's right for you."

I hate that the situation turned out to be a "veto" of sorts. I don't want us to have veto power. But we are new to poly, and still figuring it out. I wasn't clear in advance that lying situations were unacceptable. And now she has to give up a connection with someone to handle my needs, or else somehow make the situation one that I don't need to lie in. That's the only part I'm not cool with. If Coral got divorced today, and they could date out in the open, totally new story.

I get to tell her what I need. I get to say, "I need this so bad that I don't know how we will go on together if the situation stays the same." She gets to decide what she wants to do with that.

 

[Marcus]

"This is what I need, and how this makes me feel. I am not telling you what to do, but I can't live with lying. Now you need to decide what's right for you."

So that I can shake the feeling that I'm just being obtuse, let me ask you directly: if Rose adjusted her relationship with Coral in such a way that you were never put in a position to say something that was not true (regarding Coral or their relationship) would that solve the problem, even if Rose were lying and omitting with impunity to your friends, family, etc., about her relations with Coral, but you never had to utter an untrue or even misleading word to them, as long as you don't have to lie, then there is no problem, correct?

On the subject of Rose seeming to change how she feels about an otherwise agreed-upon topic-- that often happens over time. It's unreasonable for us to assume that the people around us are going to stay the same throughout all of the years that we know them. It's unreasonable, because it is demonstrably false. Our friends change, our families change, we change. That's life.

You are right to recognize that some of these changes force us to adjust the nature of our relationship. Fortunately, since I'm poly, it doesn't necessarily mean ending the relationship. But having separate residences, no longer sharing certain types of interactions, etc., can be a perfect solution.

 

[GalaGirl]

Marcus, did you mean me? I'm not sure, but I'll respond anyway, and share my POV.

It's always interesting to me to see people get so emotionally charged about someone having an affair. It would seem to be the response of "If someone can cheat on them, then someone could cheat on me. That frightens me, so I'm going to project my fear onto this other person's life." LR would even take it upon herself to reach out to the cheated partner to out the situation.

I'm not emotionally charged up. I am also not fearful or having a visceral reaction. But I value honesty and my autonomy, so I do not appreciate lies. I am grossed out by lies that ding the public health, and offended someone would take individual autonomy away from someone else.

According to my personal standard of behavior that I choose to hold myself accountable to, it is, "I am responsible for telling, if keeping a confidence is hurting or could hurt someone." So to maintain my own standard to myself, I would have to tell. No more, no less.

Others are free to keep to their own personal standard. I am not saying Oly has to tell. It is up to her to measure on her own personal standard she keeps for herself. But if Oly is asking for opinions, mine is, in those shoes, under my standard, I would tell.

Someone who would cheat on me is lying. Just tell it to me and renegotiate boundaries. That's all. What's the big deal? I do not value sexual exclusivity all that much. Do what you want. Just state the deal up front so I can make informed choices about my own sexual health if I choose to associate myself with you.

Someone who would lie to me, could and probably would lie to others. When it comes to sex health, that's risking the spread of illness. And in the case of Oly's post -- there you go. What I wondered turned out to be right. Tada. The cheater was true to form and WAS cheating/lying some more.

Gross. Coral is a greater risk to the public health and continues to deny Daisy (her cheated-on wife) the personal right and individual autonomy to make fully informed choices about her own sexual health. That's all kinds of fresh. And now, in putting me in a position where I have to speak up (ugh) or be silent (ugh) and become a liar by omission? I really dislike Coral! But I'll have to speak up. It's the "lesser ugh" to me when measured on my personal standard.

I would not take kindly to someone trespassing on my freedom to choose my stuff for me like that. It's a miracle Coral told Rose, who in turn told Oly.

That's where the other squick factor lies for me, too-- public health hazards, carriers who do not know they carry whatever illness it is. If that doesn't bother others, that's cool for them. But that's gross to me.

So for me, in those shoes, my move would be to just leave and remove myself from the line of fire. I am responsible for myself. Snd part of the "responsible leaving process" for me, by my personal standard, would be to reconcile all accounts across the board to all players. And that means tells Rose, "I'm leaving Crazy Town. Here's why. Now if you want to stay or not, that's up to you. You are free to choose what you wish, and do so from a fully-informed place. Everyone can choose for themselves. Namaste."

I don't really care what the other people do in end. But I am now free in my physical health from the line of fire, and I am now free in my mental health from lies of omission. If I have knowledge, where keeping a confidence is hurting/could hurt someone, and I do not tell, then I have done a lie of omission. That's not acceptable conduct to me. I expect better conduct from myself.

However, someone putting me in the position to have to lie just to stay afloat is not acceptable. That is what I would have a problem with. I suggest separating the two issues instead of letting them be squished together.

You seem to agree that a cheater putting you in a a lying position is not acceptable. I am confused. I am willing to try to see your POV, but need more clarity.

How is cheating not lying? How is the cheater making a unilateral decision for the group acceptable when it dings them in their individual sex health and denies them individual autonomy over their bodies? I am confused.

That's probably a clue I need some sleep... so I will go do that.

GG

 

[Oly1]

It's a miracle Coral told Rose, who in turn told Oly.

It is! It makes me wonder why she did.

For a while there, I thought Rose's honesty and standards of communication were somehow beginning to rub off on Coral. I asked Rose, and apparently Coral only admitted to sleeping with someone else after being directly asked. Still a little out of character, but I'm glad Coral at least seems to tell Rose the truth (sometimes) when prompted to.

Marcus, the answer to your question is yes and no. Here's why.

It's very unlikely there will arise a situation in which I never have to lie for them. But yesterday, Rose asked me, "What if I only see Coral once a month? Could you live with that?" and I thought about it. Here's what I came up with.

It would make the lying much less terrible. I wouldn't have to explain her absence from social events as much. Having it take up less space in her life would minimize my need to lie. So in that respect, yes, it would almost solve the problem. But not entirely, because I would still feel unsafe to have sex with Rose, knowing that I am sharing health risks with who knows how many more people I know nothing about, and who know nothing about me. (Unsurprisingly, some of the people Coral is sleeping with are also cheating themselves.) And even if Coral tells Rose she will stop sleeping with others, I will not feel safe, since I don't trust a word she says, even if Rose does. In my opinion, a cheater stays true to form and keeps on lying, as GG has said.

Second problem that will remain: I will still feel responsible towards Daisy, the woman who is being cheated on, because, by my standards, I don't feel a need to tell her, but I do feel a need to not support or enable what's being done to her. Now, you could say I am not doing anything to her. But I imagine what would happen if it all came out, and everybody knew I knew all about it and was OK with it. Could Daisy come knocking on my door and slap me in the face? (Metaphorically, no support for violence intended.) Would she be in the right be get mad at me? For me, the answer is "Yes," which means I am probably doing something wrong to her. And I feel solidarity and responsibility towards her. So I agree with a lot of what GG wrote on the subject, though we differ in our "How useful is it to expose cheaters?" position.

Now, if Rose came home today and told me, "You won't believe it! Coral came clean to Daisy. Daisy is OK with it. We are all getting tested. And then Coral and I will figure out a way for the sex we're having to be safe. And all 4 of us are having dinner this week to get to know each other better and hash out the details," in that scenario, I would be completely and totally cool with it.

 

[GalaGirl]

I agree with a lot of what GG wrote on the subject, though we differ in our "How useful is it to expose cheaters?" position.

I am tired, but before I go to bed, I wanted to respond. I am not saying you take an ad out in the paper and expose all the drama-llama. But I would tell Daisy:

"I'd like a quiet word, please. I would like to make you aware that I am going to get STD testing. I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, if you were not already aware. It has come to my awareness that our spouses are having a cheating affair together. My health was put at risk. You health was put at risk. I felt it was my responsibility to inform you so you'd be free to make your own best health decisions. You are free to make of it what you will, now that you are informed. I am sorry if Rose did not see fit to inform you herself. Namaste."​

It's so tiresome to have to consider doing this because Coral did not respect Daisy's autonomy over her own body.

Now, if Rose came home today and told me, "You won't believe it! Coral came clean to Daisy. Daisy is OK with it. We are all getting tested. Then Coral and I will figure out a way for the sex we're having to be safe. And all 4 of us are having dinner this week to get to know each other better and hash out the details," in that scenario, I would be cool with it.

So would I. And the first step in the process for that to happen, is for everyone to be fully informed of the desire, and to take a "willingness temperature" check, i.e., are you willing to participate in this, or not?

Then go from there. Treat everyone like people who can make decisions for themselves on their own, while respecting their dignity, worth, and value.

This is what Coral could have done in the beginning. Jeez. Tiresome cheater. Play like a grown up already, if you want to be poly. If you don't, shoo. This is not ethical non-monogamy. This is a cheating affair. Coral can try to whitewash all she wants, but it has not got solid foundations,

Coral is just changing tactics. She now "partial truthing" to Rose to keep getting Rose's attention until Coral no longer wants her, using her while she can.

Look at how being with you "improves" me! I told you the truth about other lies. Can I get praise for that? (Ignore how I continue to lie to Daisy. Ignore how I continue to soft soap you, telling you whatever, so I get the cookies I want from you, because it serves my own interests. Do not wonder what happens when I am not longer interested in you or your cookies. Ignore the cost to your own relationship to your own wife.) Can I get in your pants now as a reward for my "truthiness improvements"?​

You could point out to Rose that she is now bargaining to just visit Hotel Cheater in Cheater Crazy Town, where before she wanted to buy a house there. You could point out to her that it's a pit stop on the stages of grief journey to full acceptance that yes, the lying cheater really is a lying cheater after all.

You feeling unsafe is not fun. Steel yourself for Rose's anger, depression, etc., and whatever other stages she has to pass through next, I guess. Sigh.

It's still Cheater Crazy Town over there, whether you buy real estate or stay at a hotel on your visits. Sheesh.

I commend you in your faithfulness to Rose. I could not do it this way myself, but I respect that faithful quality in you anyway. I wish Rose could appreciate that gift you give her, rather than bringing you shenanigans as the return on your investment.

I do not know how else some internet person could support you, other than reading and telling you I do see you suffering there, and I hope your maintaining camp in the guest room jolts Rose to reality soon.

 

[Dirtclustit]

I am glad to see people mention some facts of cheating

When cheating involves sex acts, keeping said acts from the knowledge of partners that have placed trust in the cheater to disclose such acts, does in fact infringe upon a person's ability to be responsible for their own health.

Nobody expects some stranger from craigslist to be trustworthy enough to be taken at their word in regards to their status for sexually transmitted diseases, but those engaged in relationships that are more than casual require honesty in order to have control of your own sexual health. I have never had to snitch on a cheater, and I make sure I don't maintain friendships that would put me in a position where I would have to, I have little to no respect for people who cheat, but there are other reasons besides robbing a person of their ability to make informed decisions about their own sexual health.

The anger, frustration, and bitterness that results from the stress of awaiting a clean bill of health after finding out a trusted partner's undisclosed behaviors have exposed you to higher risk factors than you were aware of, is nothing compared to damage that can be done to a person's psyche. Relationships with prolonged cheating where the cheated remains unaware will typically include a subtle form of emotional abuse and the worst part is that the more loving, caring, compassionate the cheated partner is, the more damaging the abuse can result in. The reason is that often times the guilt experienced by the cheater leads to completely unwarranted and unfair lashing out at the partner they are cheating on, and if the partner that gets dumped on doesn't recognize it has nothing to do with their behavior it can lead to periods of severe depression and confusion which is only exacerbated if they attempt to look within themselves for changes that should be made in order to not deserve such harsh treatment. The type of self reflection that is a necessary skill to have in most healthy, supportive, and growing relationship turns out to be deadly poison if you are involved with partners who are less than honest, forming a toxic dynamic.

And with the field of psychology and psychiatry still residing in the dark ages of science, the emotional damage is unrecognized and often untreatable. Much of the damage stemming from what seems like a world-wide denial of the aftermath when people accept something as the truth in their reality when it in reality their beliefs are based on lies.

I am a firm believer that even seemingly insignificant white lies when they are accepted as truth, can blind a person's mind, effectively making obvious truths of the world unrecognizable. However my personal views of the importance of truth is viewed by many people as nothing short of delusional

 

[opalescent]

It is so hard when people are not living up to their best, most honorable selves, the selves that we know them to be. It certainly sounds like Rose is caught up in NRE and has lost her mind. Is she aware of that term and how it affects people? I suspect once she gets dumped, as Coral moves on to the next shiny thing, and that's coming, she is going to really regret her actions.

It is true you can't really stop her. Even if you go the ultimatum route, which I don't suggest, she could chose Coral. Ok, so you can't stop her from going off a cliff. You are doing what you can in that respect-- telling her your truth, being open, and continuing to communicate with her and hearing her truths. You are essentially throwing a rope after her as she flings herself off the cliff. And that is all you can do while she is high and stupid on NRE.

But you can ask to not have Rose in your life, or in your home. There is no need to be friends with her. I know how small lesbian communities are and that this may be difficult. Even if she is a pleasant person, that doesn't mean you have to tolerate her being around. You have the right to ask for this.

And I would suggest telling Coral directly. Tell her you don't respect her, she is not an honorable person, she is not your friend, and that you have to tolerate her place in Rose's life because you love Rose, but you do not like or condone her actions, or Rose's actions. This will satisfy your need for honesty. Tell Coral your truth and exactly how you see her. That might wake her up to her actions. Probably not, but sometimes a held up mirror can cause major shifts.

I know you feel responsible for Daisy. You are not. Coral and Rose are. Tolerating Rose's poor behavior because you can't get her to think with the head on her shoulders does not mean you condone their behavior. I don't think you should march off and tell Daisy, as others have suggested. That is not your place, in my opinion.

But I also don't see why you should lie or cover for Rose and Coral. It's been my experience that people don't ask about these things. They just don't unless you bring it up. It is unlikely that anyone will come up to you and ask "Is Rose having an affair with Coral?" Maybe I hang out with more WASPy types than you do, but this just hasn't happened, in my experience.

So I would tell Rose and Coral directly to their faces that if asked, you will tell, and that you will not help them cover their tracks in any way.

Finally, if your lesbian community is anything like the ones I've been a part of...

Everyone already knows.

There are few secrets in that small and interconnected a community. Everyone knows that Coral is a player, that Rose is her latest conquest, and that you are struggling with it. In that case, be truthful to yourself. Tell Rose and Coral what you think of their actions, remove Coral from your daily life, and if asked, tell.

 

[Marcus]

You seem to agree that a cheater putting you in a a lying position is not acceptable. I am confused. I am willing to try to see your POV but need more clarity.

How is cheating not lying? How is the cheater making a unilateral decision for the group acceptable when it dings them in their individual sex health, and denies them individual autonomy over their bodies?

We are not disagreeing on what dishonesty is. It is clear enough that telling a person one thing and doing another is dishonest, and that as a fully functional adult, it is something that should be avoided at every opportunity.

I think what we are disagreeing about is when the standard of being honest entitles or requires someone to involve themselves (unsolicited) in other people's lives.

Some here seem to think that there is no limit to how much authority someone should take on in the name of "honesty." If dishonesty is going on, it is somehow their duty to make sure that everyone who could possibly be affected by the dishonesty is made aware of the facts.

I personally find that approach to be meddlesome and disrespectful. I have authority and responsibility over my own life, over my own decisions, how I spend my time, and what people and situations I want to associate with. I do NOT have authority over what other people say or do, or the impact those words or actions have on people (other than myself).

In the current discussion, I believe Oly really only has one question in front of him: "Do I accept everything about my partner?"

If the answer is "no," then he needs to extricate himself from the situation. He should do this until either he is able to answer the question "yes," or he has removed her from his life entirely.

If the answer is "yes," this means that he accepts her as she is. He won't shame her or made demands on her that would urge her to change who she is. He won't meddle in her business because he accepts how she lives, and who she is.