High bar for kink?

[icesong]

This may have already been mentioned in here (I've not read much of the thread, yet), but I'll mention it anyway. Please read up on dissociation in relation to trauma. When people "go away," this is generally what's going on: trauma associated dissociation.

This strikes me as quite kink-shaming as a statement. I subspace / go floaty in particular circumstances with particular people I trust. It is _not_ trauma dissociation - if I had to describe it I'd say it's a lot more like being drunk or stoned just using natural endorphins rather than consuming a substance to cause the state. It's wildly different than what you're describing.

 

[lunabunny]

This may have already been mentioned in here (I've not read much of the thread, yet), but I'll mention it anyway. Please read up on dissociation in relation to trauma. When people "go away," this is generally what's going on: trauma associated dissociation.

Yes, thanks for mentioning this, River. I am aware of the connection between past trauma and dissociation. Or rather, I have become more aware of it, as it relates to my personal experience, through discussions on this forum and through reading about the subject.

In my case, there is definitely a connection... in fact, the topics of sexual trauma/abuse, dissociation, subspace and sub-drop were discussed in some detail in this thread I started soon after joining the forum:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90592&highlight=threesome

This strikes me as quite kink-shaming as a statement. I subspace / go floaty in particular circumstances with particular people I trust. It is _not_ trauma dissociation - if I had to describe it I'd say it's a lot more like being drunk or stoned just using natural endorphins rather than consuming a substance to cause the state. It's wildly different than what you're describing.

I also understand what you are saying here, icesong.

It seems I can, and do, dissociate rather easily in more than one context... in both pleasant and not-so-pleasant ways.

I've been known to "freeze" and go elsewhere in my mind due to unpleasant associations during sex - AND have also experienced that floaty, "zoned out" state of bliss due to a rush of endorphins during sex.

Occasionally I can achieve this transcendent state without even engaging in sexual activity, if I'm in the right frame of mind - either by myself or while connecting emotionally with a partner - which feels similar to a trance-like meditative state.

 

[Vicki82]

What if you do really think that? You are are supposed to say nothing to your partner? You cannot ask them for reassurance that they are ok and that they vet carefully?

Between "nothing kink happening at all" extreme and "loss of life or limb" extreme there's a wide range of things in between. Somewhere in there is a threshold, a line. I think partners could talk about that and come to terms where the line may be for them.

A solo person operating a free agent doesn't have to answer to anyone but themselves. A partnered person, a family person? What they choose to do can and does affect their people.

https://www.thehotline.org/2017/04/06/healthy-bdsm-relationships/



Plenty of healthy people practice BDSM. To me that is jumping to extreme conclusions. But there ARE unhealthy people in all walks of life, and there are risks that cannot be undone. So in their BDSM practice, a person has to figure out where their limit of tolerance lies for who they will kink with, what activities are on the table or not, when it will happen, where, etc.



Yup. I like the "floaty" space, but for me to push the stimulus to the max so I go away? It is RARE. It's going into overload. Because I don't know what's going on. And it's pleasant to me to experience that when all is good and safe. Would be horrible if not.

Galagirl

I hate to disagree with you, Galagirl, since I value reading your posts- but I just can't get there this time.

First of all, if I told a partner I thought their relationship was abusive, regardless of whether or not it was, then I'd immediately put them on the defensive and they'd be unlikely to listen to me in either case.

Secondly, who decides what is or is not abusive? There is no clear, objective standard for doing so. I know lots of people who are in relationships that are not my cup of tea, but they are happy, and I don't believe it is my place to impose my moral values on them.

Adults get to consent to any kind of relationship they want, even one that isn't mainstream, even one that looks or objectively IS unfair, even one that would be harmful for/to us. I support informed consent, so that's why I say I believe it's totally fine to check in with someone and say "hey, I have noticed X behaviour or incident and I find it a little concerning. How are you feeling about that?"

But if the person actually involved acknowledges things and says they are fine with it, then it is 100% their decision. I'm not the one actually in the relationship, so I don't know how things are going beyond whatever glimpses I get. And I think it's wrong to impose my own standards on someone else's consensual relationship.

If they were a partner of mine and their activities were causing hurt or harm to me, even by association, then I could choose to exercise my boundaries and end that connection. I don't get to tell my partner that they need to end their other relationship.

As for the subspace issues, I strongly disagree that it's generally dissociation because of bad stuff. Many bottoms/submissives love that feeling, and very very few that I know of actually black out to the extent GalaGirl describes. I would consider that to be unsafe and would not play with a partner who experienced subspace to that extent because to me, it's beyond my risk tolerance.

 

[Vicki82]

The question, for which you asked for clarification, was not what the problem was, but who pays the price in the event of damage and harm. This related directly to the OP's question of when do you step in to voice concerns about a partner's kink with another partner.

It's possibly irrelevant to these questions what you personally think the core problem was in Dinged Heart's particular case. Furthermore, you are mistaken about core problems.

In one case I mentioned, the core problem was a child seeing very graphic words and photographs. Those photographs and words existed, and would have if all the adults involved consented, and damage resulted from activity consented to by those adults.

In the other case, all adults consented. The woman's behavior suggests that permanent, life-altering damage occurred and that the husband is paying the price, for the rest of his life. Not the kink partner who inflicted the damage.

These examples speak directly to the OP's question of when/if it is acceptable to express concerns. Dinged Heart is pointing out that it is acceptable to do so because the OP (or anyone with the same question) may well be the one paying the price if they don't speak up about the red flags and it goes wrong.



I think it's quite reasonable to discuss the OP's question and the fact that extreme things do happen when people engage in extreme play should not be ignored. But the examples I added to Gala's examples are not as 'extreme' as actual loss of life or limb. But they still have deep and painful impact on the people in question AND on those around them in who knows how many ripples.

In short, the things we do affect other people. The things OP's partner does with her kink partner affect OP and may potentially leave him with a price to pay. Therefore, it is fair for him to voice concerns. Their activity is not isolated from his life.

WhatHappened, I think it's mostly irrelevant because a child could come across totally vanilla parents who sexted each other graphic fantasies and pictures. The BDSM is not the problem; it would be people leaving their private messages unprotected.

I strongly suspect most people password lock their phones and devices. I certainly do.

As to the issue DingedHeart spoke to, where someone decided it was appropriate to masturbate publicly, again I see the BDSM not being the issue- it's someone's bad judgment. If it was me? I'd set the boundary that I would not be comfortable being around a partner who engaged in that sort of behaviour in an inappropriate public place and would choose to leave the place. And definitely would discuss this specific action with my partner.

BDSM doesn't mean that people have no autonomy, or that they fuck everywhere indiscriminately, or have no judgment, or inherently engage in life altering risky play.

 

[GalaGirl]

It's fine to agree to disagree with me, Vicki. We are all different people.

I happen to think otherwise. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on some points.

I think we could agree on others like...

I'm not going to impose my value system on someone else. Sounds like you aren't either.

If it is someone I care about? I am going to voice that I'm concerned about them. You seem to be ok with that also even if we might phrase it differently.

First of all, if I told a partner I thought their relationship was abusive, regardless of whether or not it was, then I'd immediately put them on the defensive and they'd be unlikely to listen to me in either case.

Correct. It is possible they will go defensive.

If I express something I think? That is me doing my side of a communication. I view how they choose to react or respond or digest the communication as their side of the job. They might tell me this is not an area to concern myself with. And fair enough. I will not concern myself further then.

My experience is different than yours. My friends and relatives, even if initially defensive, usually do listen to me because I rarely intervene in their personal lives.

My most recent friend to leave abuse took almost ten years. And in that time it was me and other friends quietly and consistently saying "You could be treated better than this. This is not ok behavior."

Were we imposing our morals on her? No. Were we stating what we observed? Yes. Her ex did some awful things to her. We also understood that leaving is a process. It's not an instant decision thing sometimes.

Secondly, who decides what is or is not abusive? There is no clear, objective standard for doing so.

I disagree. There are many materials available. Like tactics listed clearly in the middle of this page. https://speakoutloud.net/articles
There are also enough articles about abuse within the context of BDSM... how it can hide there.

So I think for the OP, they could talk their partner and figure out where the line in the sand is for them. It doesn't have to be the same place you draw it for you or I draw it for me -- but they could figure out where they draw it for them all the same and if they can both live with that.

Galagirl

 

[Vicki82]

I disagree. There are many materials available. Like tactics listed clearly in the middle of this page. https://speakoutloud.net/articles
There are also enough articles about abuse within the context of BDSM... how it can hide there.

Galagirl

I haven't read that article, but there are definitely behaviours that some people would say are abusive, and I would say they are not inherently so (but could be). So I do not believe there is an objective standard that applies to every relationship. For example, I suspect the vast majority of people would classify a relationship where one person causes the other physical pain to be abusive. I suspect the vast majority of people who see a large imbalance in power or authority would consider that to be abusive.

In my opinion, neither situation is inherently abusive as long as there is informed consent. We're all adults, we get to choose what type of relationship we want to have. I would make sure that my friend or partner in what I considered a potentially abusive situation was informed, and was content with their choice to be involved in such a relationship. I would not continue to try and convince them they were in an abusive relationship if they told me they were in a consensual arrangement.

We have literally had vanilla people offer my husband a couch to sleep on if he wanted to leave me. They don't understand that we have a multipage agreement that we worked out together, that we are much more aware of our connections and boundaries and agreements than most couples. We are both fully aware of the ramifications and consequences of our agreements and choose to continue the relationship in this manner because it makes us happy and connected. This is not an abusive relationship. I also believe that most D/s relationships are not abusive.

I strongly believe that people need to bend over backwards NOT to place their own morals and values on someone else's relationships, because it's not their place to do so. So maybe someone thinks BDSM is wrong. How about when someone judges your polyamorous relationship and tries to get you to change it because it's morally wrong? Or that it's abusive for kids to be raised in a LGBTQ relationship? At some point, people need to realize that it's okay to build relationships any way they want as long as there is informed consent on all parts. That may mean respecting a relationship that you don't understand. But if you can't honour it, you will likely lose your friend if you keep pushing.

 

[vinsanity0]

The question, for which you asked for clarification, was not what the problem was, but who pays the price in the event of damage and harm. This related directly to the OP's question of when do you step in to voice concerns about a partner's kink with another partner.

It's possibly irrelevant to these questions what you personally think the core problem was in Dinged Heart's particular case. Furthermore, you are mistaken about core problems.

In one case I mentioned, the core problem was a child seeing very graphic words and photographs. Those photographs and words existed, and would have if all the adults involved consented, and damage resulted from activity consented to by those adults.

In the other case, all adults consented. The woman's behavior suggests that permanent, life-altering damage occurred and that the husband is paying the price, for the rest of his life. Not the kink partner who inflicted the damage.

These examples speak directly to the OP's question of when/if it is acceptable to express concerns. Dinged Heart is pointing out that it is acceptable to do so because the OP (or anyone with the same question) may well be the one paying the price if they don't speak up about the red flags and it goes wrong.



I think it's quite reasonable to discuss the OP's question and the fact that extreme things do happen when people engage in extreme play should not be ignored. But the examples I added to Gala's examples are not as 'extreme' as actual loss of life or limb. But they still have deep and painful impact on the people in question AND on those around them in who knows how many ripples.

In short, the things we do affect other people. The things OP's partner does with her kink partner affect OP and may potentially leave him with a price to pay. Therefore, it is fair for him to voice concerns. Their activity is not isolated from his life.

None of this speaks directly to the OP's concerns about what is or isn't emotional abuse. Instead, we have gone off on a tangent concerning possible worse case scenarios for physical damage. I also don't recall the OP being worried about their children being exposed to sexual messages or public play, which, as has been pointed out, happens amongst vanilla people as well. There are tons of threads dealing with children in poly relationships.

I think it's funny how people jump to conclusions about bdsm. Their minds go to the most extreme things possible. OP didn't mention any sort of extreme play. Just impact play and D/s, which is mostly mental.

 

[GalaGirl]

What I meant by "life and limb" wasn't just literal loss of life or loss of limbs. I meant taking on damage. Be it mental, emotional, psychological, etc. I could have been more clear.

Mental abuse and emotional abuse are both covered in this article I posted dealing with tactics. So are other areas.

https://speakoutloud.net/articles

OP has to talk to partner and figure out where their comfort level/line in the sand is drawn.

Galagirl