How to invite your wife into polyamory ?

She says....

Here is what my wife has written to me (I have translated it into English). It came in response for some audio messages I left for her (it is too hard to have a normal conversation so sometimes a walkies-talkie communication works better):

I will not give you any freedom. You gave me "freedom", but I was sure I would not use it. You already have a freedom that I never gave you. (...) and I do not want you to stay with other women. I'm not you. Either our relationship will gradually change for better or it will end sooner or later. (...) I can't accept hearing your stories anymore. I'm like that, square and I'm going to continue until I die!

In our relationship, I will no longer suffer for your sake or third party interference.

We love each other and as long as I love you, I want you just for me. If you say that you love me and you do not have jealousy, it's your way. I am different!

Come to sleep.
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The only thing I learn from this message is that she is afraid of any pain and she hasn't acknowledged the potential benefits of changing her beliefs. In short, she lacks on motivation, currently.
 
Then my impressions were in error and I stand corrected. I wasn't trying to vilify you. Just trying to make sense of where this thread was at because I find it challenging to follow.

All in all... It seems like at this point in time you, Wife and Cam are trying to navigate whatever comes next.

Galagirl
 
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LoveQuest said:
In our relationship, I will no longer suffer for your sake or third party interference
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The only thing I learn from this message is that she is afraid of any pain and she hasn't acknowledged the potential benefits of changing her beliefs. In short, she lacks on motivation, currently.
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What I learn from this is you appear not to be able to hear anyone else’s voice other than your own. You may be intelligent, but you do seem to be lacking in wisdom.

I suspect the fundamental issue here is that you are operating from a paternalistic paradigm that allows you to suffer under the delusion that you are “the boss”. Coming to a polyamory forum looking for support for that attitude is probably not a recipe for success.

On the other hand you may be realising that your paradigm is not working and you are reaching out for assistance in shifting. If this is the case simply stating where you are hitting the buffer - authentically, without analysis and in simple terms - might work better. As it is you seem to be asking for agreement for the solutions you have already identified. This is not usually a good way to get new, fresh input.

I understand this is not what you might want to hear.
 
I do need help in the original topic "How to invite your wife into polyamory ?", regarding any arguments I can use or actions I can do.

GallaGirl, yes I know you had good intentions.

northhome, you are welcome to share your wisdom. Yet if you believe it is not possible then I'll still continue to try as I can't see myself being happy without that extra freedom. When my wife says "I will not suffer" it is important to remark that she is a drama queen and exaggerates her statements. I say that because although she has been out of control of her own behavior, my behavior has never been out of her control. Worst scenario was probably of me refusing to take her calls for a few days, which does result in a lot of pain for her but it is a short lived pain.

Today I dreamed that I was getting to know a short hair girl who was poly. It was all about exchange of affection and feeling free to share the same bed. During the morning I felt as if I was cuddling with her and it was so good. She and other girl shared a relationship with a guy and it was so nice to see how we could all share that love freely.

PS: There was no sex in this dream. We didn't need it. Plus I had practiced extraordinary sex with my gorgeous wife before sleeping.
PS: When I wrote about "mating season" I was not thinking sex but just creating such emotional connection that I felt in my dream, if that makes sense.
 
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I do need help in the original topic "How to invite your wife into polyamory ?", regarding any arguments I can use or actions I can do.
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If you are going to invite her, just invite her.

"Wife, I would like to invite you to consider open marriage/ poly."

She either accepts the invitation to consider it or not. Her words in post #61 seem to be a pretty clear "No, I'm not interested." I don't see it as lacking motivation. She's just not interested. I'm not sure there are any arguments you could make that could make her become interested.

It sounds like she acknowledges that you two have different views on relationships/love. She notes the freedom she didn't give you (you seeing Cam?) and seems to choose to wait it out with the -- "Either our relationship will gradually change for better or it will end sooner or later."

Sounds like she's going with a "time will tell" approach.

As for actions you can do? You could do same. Do nothing and simply continue as you are. See Cam, be with wife. And adopt wife's attitude on it -- that time will tell.

Alternately?

I can't see myself being happy without that extra freedom.
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If you already know that you cannot be happy without it? And you do not want to wait for "time to tell?"

You could make a decision now about it so you can move on now. Then you don't have to wait. You may have to reconsider parting ways so you can be free TO pursue/practice those extra freedoms you want in the way that you want now.

And wife can continue to be free FROM stuff she doesn't want.

Divorce is out of question by now. Both because my bond to my wife is too strong and because we have a young baby. For me and my wife, the baby's need of affection and stability come on top of everything else.
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I can see that you don't want to consider divorce at this time because you don't want to sever the strong bond and because of the young baby.

Then you may have to fall back on "wait for time to tell" even if it is not your favorite option.

I can imagine neither path is appealing right now. But if there is no available "hooray!" kind of path at this time, you might just have to pick from the options that are available right now and make your peace with that.

I cannot think of what else to suggest.

Galagirl
 
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A baby in the mix :(

I don't have time to comment now. Thanks, Galagirl.
 
Actions, not words...

GalaGirl,

Thanks for your analysis. Let me provide further details.

My wife's words I posted were in response to some arguments I had just used with her about our future together. In summary, I said our relationship was already worn out and this tended to get worse in future, not better. Worn out by time and by our mutual failure in satisfying the full set of needs from each other, which is too much to expect from a single person. And we both didn't want to live unhappily together for our entire lives.

Sounds to me as an excellent argument for her to reflect about the shortcomings of monogamy. I didn't talk about polyamory as an alternative but she surely picked it up and that triggered her defensive response about our future; Then, with the single goal of defeating my argument, she states that it will either improve or end so we won't be unhappy.

The sad thing is that she is unable to realize that she is wrong. Our relationship won't just end naturally, because our history has shown it is kind of bullet-proof. Also, expecting unresolved stuff to get resolved over time without dealing with it is a almost a superstition. So I don't think it can improve as per her rules, at least not on my side. Though in a way I understand her optimism, since she may be projecting her future based on her recent past. Things have improved a lot for her. She has fulfilled her dream of being a mother and having her family, among other things, so she doesn't want to put that in risk.

Sounds like a selfish argument of hers, but she hasn't actually been on my skin to know how frustrated I am. She thinks that this is just the way I am, sluggish and unmotivated. She doesn't realize that I can also be enthusiastic. Maybe if she saw how motivated I was in better periods of my life then she would see the contrast and think otherwise. But unfortunately I do not express my feelings widely as she does so it always seems that I'm fine.

As you see, it is hard to talk to her because she gets triggered and then fails to notice the multitude of possibilities we have. It would be easier to communicate through emotions rather than logical arguments. In other words, she may have a hard time understanding what I say but can easily feel what I do. For instance, once I did a night shift at work. She begun calling me non-stop, doubting that nothing else was really happening. Overwhelmed by her anxiety and insecurity I shut down my cell phone, otherwise there would be no point in being there at my job place trying to get things done. My actions made her notice that I'm not very comfortable in being at home. Thus after this event she started being a bit more interested in listening to me when I have something to claim and begun making a bit more of effort in pleasing me in simple ways (small things like making me a sandwich). Though that kind of action won't alleviate her fears about relaxing the rules of monogamy.

So, I'm thinking what kind of action or event does it take for her to understand a different point of view and feelings...
 
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SHE DOESN'T WANT A POLY RELATIONSHIP.

No relationship is "bulletproof." After all the research you have done, you should realize that. If you really want to engage in a poly relationship, you can find another person to do it with. To continue to try to manipulate your wife into accepting a poly relationship is, in all actuality, emotional abuse. Go ahead and come back with how abusive she has been to you, and all I can say is so what? Even more reason to leave the relationship.

You have two choices; either accept that there will be no poly relationship that involves your wife or walk away. Yes, you are deeply entrenched in a relationship with her (doesn't sound to be in a healthy way, either) and you have a young child. That's just noise and excuses.

Is there a particular reason why you choose women who have serious mental health issues? I think you like feeling as if you are in a position of "superiority." YOU'RE not the one who is crazy; SHE is! Look at how I'm trying to fix her!

Enough already.
 
powerpuffgrl1969,

I'm not offended, but I must note that it is contradictory to post again reaffirming that you are done with it. And it seems like an angry post. So, sorry if I'm being intrusive with what I'll say, but IMO stakes are high that in some relationship of your past (or present) you have felt manipulated and victimized but you couldn't "escape" because you were "deeply entrenched", because then it would be natural to project such anger on me. Actually a very common scene for females in modern world.

I wouldn't worry though about someone trying to manipulate his wife into accepting a polyamory, because that will never work. He can push it into polygamy but not polyamory. See the difference?

And btw, I have never chosen a disordered partner nor I knew that they had a disorder before falling in love for them. I just saw their pain and helped with listening, patience and kindness, and that particular relationships grew stronger mainly because of their huge effort when compared more stable girls I have dated in the past. In other words, they are the ones who chose me. But I don't want to deviate too much into this topic.
 
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LoveQuest said:
powerpuffgrl1969,

I'm not offended, but I must note that it is contradictory to post again reaffirming that you are done with it. And it seems like an angry post. So, sorry if I'm being intrusive with what I'll say, but IMO stakes are high that in some relationship of your past (or present) you have felt manipulated and victimized but you couldn't "escape" because you were "deeply entrenched", because then it would be natural to project such anger on me. Actually a very common scene for females in modern world.
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This is what is known as an "ad hominem" argument. It's when you avoid responding to what a person says in favor of making a case against the person themself, instead of making one against the content of their argument.

Loosely translated, this means that the more you try to convince the members of this forum how right you are, the more ridiculous you make yourself look.

At this point, i feel this discussion is useless without direct input from your wife, NOT notes or text messages your wife wrote TO you and translated BY you FOR us. But, that is conveniently impossible thanks to the language barrier.


http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27626
You wouldn't happen to be this guy, would you?
 
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LoveQuest said:
So, I'm thinking what kind of action or event does it take for her to understand a different point of view and feelings...
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I'm thinking the better question you should ask is what action should YOU be taking to better respect her boundaries that she clearly expressed to you.

Any action that falls short of respecting those boundaries will bring you closer to being an abuser. If you continue to decide that her boundaries are simply because she doesn't understand, isn't open to what you want, etc., then be prepared to also take on the label of abuser.

And yes, it would be an accurate one if you continue to decide that her own boundaries are incorrect and she needs to change her boundaries to better suit your wishes and desires. She is a consenting adult. Even with a mental illness, she is a consenting adult. You need to treat her as such.
 
In summary, I said our relationship was already worn out and this tended to get worse in future, not better. Worn out by time and by our mutual failure in satisfying the full set of needs from each other, which is too much to expect from a single person. And we both didn't want to live unhappily together for our entire lives.

Sounds to me as an excellent argument for her to reflect about the shortcomings of monogamy.
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To me it sounds like reasons to break up.

Then you both can stop living together, both move on, and both be free of monogamy with each other. As well as be free of all the "worn out" stuff. Neither of you sounds especially happy. :(

I didn't talk about polyamory as an alternative but she surely picked it up and that triggered her defensive response about our future; Then, with the single goal of defeating my argument, she states that it will either improve or end so we won't be unhappy.
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I don't hear that as defensive or argumentative. It's just what it is: Things will either improve or not.

Depending on how that goes at the end of the waiting period? You both will choose to keep going with this relationship. Or one of you/both of you will choose to part ways because you have grown tired of the status quo.

Sounds like a selfish argument of hers, but she hasn't actually been on my skin to know how frustrated I am. She thinks that this is just the way I am, sluggish and unmotivated. She doesn't realize that I can also be enthusiastic. Maybe if she saw how motivated I was in better periods of my life then she would see the contrast and think otherwise. But unfortunately I do not express my feelings widely as she does so it always seems that I'm fine.
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You sound super frustrated. Sounds like you are not happy in this relationship.

As you see, it is hard to talk to her because she gets triggered and then fails to notice the multitude of possibilities we have.
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One of those possibilities is to accept that poly is NOT something she wants to do.

One of those possibilities is to move on without her so you no longer are feeling frustrated.

I'm thinking what kind of action or event does it take for her to understand a different point of view and feelings...
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You breaking up with her is an action/event that demonstrates you have a different point of view/feelings.

That may not be what you want to hear since you are still hoping to find other options that will allow you to poly with wife remaining in your poly network. :(

To me your options are pretty limited.

  • You could wait and decide what to do at a later point in time.
  • Or you could make the decisions now because you are already tired of waiting.

Whenever it is you decide... the available choices seem to be
  • You could choose to break up and move on without her because she doesn't want to practice polyamory and you really do.
  • You could choose to remain in the relationship and give up the want to poly.

Galagirl
 
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I'm just relieved that Love Quest was able to determine my relationship history based on no information whatsoever. All those years wasted on therapy. . .
 
LoveQuest said:
GalaGirl,

The sad thing is that she is unable to realize that she is wrong.

So, I'm thinking what kind of action or event does it take for her to understand a different point of view and feelings...
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You seem incapable of understanding that your wife is not "wrong" simply because she does not agree with YOUR view of matters.

She has told you how SHE feels already. In a multitude of ways, she has made it clear she does NOT wish to practise non monogamy. You need to deal with that, and make decisions accordingly without trying to persuade, convince or argue your case for the next however-many years... especially not while actively pursuing another romantic/emotional relationship with Cam (even if it's not overtly sexual)... which may only heighten her fears of abandonment and create further conflict in your marriage.

Not to mention that, in your bid to allay your wife's jealousy, you're putting Cam and HER feelings on the back-burner, until... when? This interim period, in which you intend to try and convince your wife to accept poly, while still hanging out with Cam as a "close friend" who you gradually attempt to integrate into the family structure, may emotionally burn your friend/girlfriend out, as she realises her position in your life is not guaranteed, and she is indeed "secondary" to the wishes and whims of you and/or your wife.

I feel it's fair to neither woman. One (your wife) wants monogamy, the other (Cam) is willing to accept a polyamorous situation with you and your wife, but does not always want to feel like she comes second and that open affection/love/sexual gratification has to be "put on hold" until such time as your wife is ready - which she may never be! How does waiting an indeterminate amount of time until she can really express her feelings and share sex openly with you benefit Cam??

And so what if your wife occasionally enjoys describing sex with others (imaginary or actual past lovers) during sex with you, which is a reasonably common fantasy. It does not automatically mean she wants to watch you share sex with another woman or participate in any kind of three-way scenario IN REALITY.

What's more, using other forum members' dissention to insinuate that they're only disagreeing with you because their gender makes them susceptible to "projecting" past negative experiences onto your situation, is evidence of your own inability to accept the reality of your current dilemma. As is using your wife's condition as an excuse to convince yourself and us that you know her better than she knows her own mind.

You are not the only one here with a knowledge of psychology and experience with BPD and other mental health issues, LoveQuest. Realise that no amount of reading or "knowing better" can persuade someone who truly isn't interested in doing poly to participate in such a lifestyle with joyous abandon.
 
LoveQuest, you've clearly -- from your very first post -- got everything all figured out perfectly for yourself.

Short of various forms of mind control (possibly involving imprisonment, torture, & pharmaceuticals) there is NO way to "change the mind" of ANYONE. Such change might be imposed "naturally" ONLY in the case of people who enter the situation already feeble-minded or emotionally damaged.

In anycase, if you're being a manipulative dick, then you're doing a really poor job of "selling" the concept as an inherently good idea, maybe because you don't actually believe your own spiel. :rolleyes:
 
Hey ref2018, the single question that powerpuffgrl1969 did was answered and I didn't mean to make any case against her. Just hoping I could help her find the source of that anger.

ref2018 said:
At this point, i feel this discussion is useless without direct input from your wife
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I don't quite understand why. That request reminds me more of an "court of justice" than a support board. Anyway, she wouldn't agree in talking about herself in open boards like this, even in our native language. She is too sensible to criticism.

ref2018 said:
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27626
You wouldn't happen to be this guy, would you?
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This made me laugh. :) The post from the link has a few silly statements, indeed, such as "I'm not a Machista, I don't even work out"... I noticed though that thread had been created 4 years before your account, which might indicate that you have closed your original account, and if that is the case then I'd understand why would you think I could have a previous account too. I don't have that intention though, as I only have one story to tell.
 
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Crossing boundaries ?

Seinneann,

Seinneann said:
I'm thinking the better question you should ask is what action should YOU be taking to better respect her boundaries that she clearly expressed to you.
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Could you explain precisely what do you think I did, or may do, that disrespects her boundaries?
Few days ago she congratulated me for the exact opposite, for having respected what she is willing or not to accept between me and Cam, during the water park. Does that change the way you see things, or is it about something else?
 
LoveQuest said:
I do need help in the original topic "How to invite your wife into polyamory ?", regarding any arguments I can use or actions I can do.
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It looks like you already invited her and the answer was no. The reason you are running into some push back here is because it appears you already knew this and were asking advice on how to either convince her or manipulate her into changing her mind.

From the message from her you posted, it is clear she is not interested and is prepared to let you go if you continue. You have to respect that she is not interested. You have to decide if you can accept that and stay or if you need to leave to pursue your goal.
 
Prisoner of the mind...

lunabunny said:
You seem incapable of understanding that your wife is not "wrong" simply because she does not agree with YOUR view of matters.
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GalaGirl said:
I don't hear that as defensive or argumentative. It's just what it is: Things will either improve or not.
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Let me clarify this. Here is the argument and counter-argument:

Me: we'll either remain unfulfilled or it will get even worse
Her: it will either improve or it will end, so we won't remain unhappy

I said she was wrong because this is just simple logic, and this logic isn't based on the facts of our relationship. It actually contradicts them. The facts are:
  • We have gone through the most terrible things, survived it and grew a stronger love. Never had sex problems or lacked on mutual attraction. She now feels better and behaves better. Plus even if things changed, we both would be willing to sacrifice ourselves further so that the baby didn't suffer from the financial and emotional distress of a separation. Hence, there isn't any indication that we will separate in any near future.
  • She seems happier now than in previous years, or at least more satisfied, but not me. I'm just getting worn out further and feel imprisoned.
Things here have always been done in a way that doesn't disrupt her moods, but doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is... insane.

I don't agree with the shared views that one should accept or divorce. What is divorce? For me it is only about property, money and kids custody, yet it doesn't say anything in terms of emotions. Even less meaningful for us since we marriage agreement is not the official one that changes our civil status. We just have a "stable union document" signed many years ago, which has a lawful value in regards to property and finance, but is more like a customized agreement including clauses specifically added by her and by me.

Ravenscroft said:
In anycase, if you're being a manipulative dick, then you're doing a really poor job of "selling" the concept as an inherently good idea, maybe because you don't actually believe your own spiel. :rolleyes:
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Call it spell, call me dick or pussy, yet I firmly believe in my potential. I'm not up to "sell" this idea as it only applies to myself. I can't sell something in which I haven't yet succeeded anyway. But I must succeed.

Succeed in what? In feeling free to love. Although this topic is about my wife, my quest is on a higher level, about myself. I'm a prisoner of my own unconscious love barriers and fears more than I'm any prisoner of any mono relationship.
 
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