Huge Problem likely Small Issue for your veterans, please help

[PolyPhonic]

...and the other half that aren't buying it he's doing this "Jesus" thing like forgiving us because we know not what we do.

Hahaha that was hilarious. Even if it's at my expense, that was really f-ing funny! lol Love it

 

[PolyPhonic]

It sounds fair and wonderful if the OP didn't use the term "cock-blocking" to refer to his wife not wanting to move another "hot bi babe" into the house, then when people call him ouot on that, he says "no no, i meant that my wife wants to hog all the sex to herself with the other woman".

Like I said, I should have said "pussy block" but it wouldn't have worked out of context, it just sounded better to use the proverbial phrase "cock block". It didn't need to be a big huge negative thing. It was to illustrate that she was preventing something that I wanted. I'll explain below:

So, which is it? His wife does or doesn't want this woman? His wife is refusing to let the woman move in because she wants a relationshipi with the woman all to herself? This doesn't make sense, and if it doesn't make sense, it probably isn't true. I'm not making this up. The OP keeps writing things that anyone who can read can immediately find things that contradict each other. Then he back-peddles.

It's that she is mono wired and does not want anyone to move in. She is bi-curious I guess you could say and so wants to dabble in a threesome, but by "cock blocking" I mean that she will try and prevent and control my connection with the girl because she fears the possibility that I will ask her the ridiculous (in her mind it is) to have the woman move in with us. Honestly, I don't think this chick is the perfect material for that, though I have no idea, and in any event we haven't asked her, it's not like just because I want her to she will. Point is, I'm giving her free reign with the girl, but she is not giving me free reign with her. In the spirit of opening up, I'm ok with having my fiancee permit me to do whatever she is comfortable with, but she is going to really be a buzzkill in the moment if she's constantly projecting insecurity to the other girl as I try and enjoy some time with her. And all because she is worried that the girl will infringe on her monogamy.

God don't you just love how conflicted monos who can't embrace their inner poly get? (Wouldn't a monogamous person interested in threesomes be a candidate for being a closet poly?)

Today she admitted to me that there is even a childhood friend she had a dream about last night who she told me she always wanted to have sex with when they were young but the opportunity never occurred, and when I asked her if she wanted to have sex with him she said "mmm" which was like 'maybe' so when I asked "but do you want to BE with him?" like switch over to a relationship with him, she said "no". In that moment in contrast with the previous answer it led me to believe that she could have answered "no" just as easily to when I asked if she wanted to have sex with him, but she didn't say "no" she said "mmm" to that, so that means she wouldn't mind having sex with him. It's ok I was a pro poker player. She wants to have sex with him.

Later in the day I told her the "more children" analogy to see if I could get her to better understand what it means to want more of something you already have. For anyone unaware, the basic is to ask someone who has more than one child why they decided to have a second one if they already had one. Wasn't one enough?

Today I also read a good one. Ice-cream on top of your pie. Just because you don't get ice-cream on top of your pie doesn't mean you need to feel bad about the delicious pie you get. It's an analogy for how a mono has to appreciate what they get in a poly situation.

Anyway my several paragraph point is, I think my fiancee has a little "poly" hidden down inside her after all. I asked her when she got curious about having sex with a girl, and she said her whole life. I asked her when she got curious about having threesomes and she said since her first husband wanted it but that she rejected the idea out of fear of losing him. But it still stuck with her, and now she is very curious and we have been experimenting with this other girl. And now today she drops the old teenage crush sex bomb on me so coyly (I had a dream last night, yeah right).

What he calls "bullying" on my part is simply making fun of him because he has about half the people in this thread trying to look open-minded, and the other half that aren't buying it he's doing this "Jesus" thing like forgiving us because we know not what we do.

Yeah I'm not even keeping score. I don't know if it was you or whoever. It's the past for me. If it happens again I will let whoever does it know. For now I've said my peace.

It's obvious to me that the OP's story has been tailored and adjusted along the way to push all the poly hot-buttons of as many people as possible.

Oh no, not at all. I am not like that. Maybe that's how it feels for you, but that's not at all how I think. I'm not on a mission to upset anyone or have any bad motives.

I'm suspecting he is attempting to piss people off to the point where they make themselves look like fools.

Uh, no. I would rather they see what they did wrong and become better people. An apology would be nice, but I don't need it. It'd be far more fulfilling for me to see someone say they understand and will make sure to do better in the future.

There is a lot going on here that meets the classic trolling techniques.

Well, it's not manufactured. I'm only being me. I didn't read any "troll" guidebook. lol

I'm actually enjoying this thread because it's giving me ideas for my stand-up comedy routine. Not what the OP says, but what others (including myself) say.

Haha, yeah there are some good ones here. I don't think I've been too funny except as a study maybe. :-/

If you will excuse me, I have to go compose music, take pictures of nude models on white-sandy beaches, and put my kids to bed.

I never said nude models, but that is funny. I would just add: "...and then slip into bed with my foursome." That sounds even more ironic after the kids line.

I did have more to say but I bet other people can take it from here.

...

 

[PolyPhonic]

Its called metacommunication and can make a huge difference in how people percieve u.

Yeah I know about metacommunication in real conversations, body language, context, etc. But how to do that in writing? Sounds like you are talking about "framing" but I'm not sure how to do that as a craft. I'd be curious to find an appropriate link teaching the skill of metacommunicating in writing.

 

[Phy]

Point is, I'm giving her free reign with the girl, but she is not giving me free reign with her.

Does she want this free reign? Is she even interested in more than just sex? I know that things should be equal ideally, but sometimes you need a certain time of unequalness to reach a comfortable place. It happens often in poly relationships that one person (who is the more at-ease-one in regard to poly mostly) can grant more freedom to the partner and cut back on his/her own for a while to let the partner come to terms and see for him/herself if the threats he or she is fearing are really as gruesome as imagined. This may work here as well.

God don't you just love how conflicted monos who can't embrace their inner poly get? (Wouldn't a monogamous person interested in threesomes be a candidate for being a closet poly?)

No, I don't think so. Threesomes are just sex. Period. Swinging works for many who aren't into the relationship and emotion stuff at all polys are sometimes searching in such a constellation. This doesn't mean that polys can't be great at swinging as well, but a monogamous person will likely be less 'endangered' to really fall in love with a new potential partner when the feelings for the original one are stable and just there.

Don't confuse poly with sex. Recreational sex has nothing to do with it and if your wife enjoys another woman it does in no poly-book mean that she may be poly herself.

 

[LovingRadiance]

I have a textbook that explains it well. Tomorrow evening I will get on the laptop and see if I can't find some info on it.

 

[GalaGirl]

These are her clear limits you are reporting in your post here as I read/hear it:

• She is monoamorous.
• She is not interested in being Open in Heart to love more than one at a time.
• She is not interested in exploring a polyamorous relationship structure with you.
• She does not want anyone to move in and does not want you asking people to do so.
• She is bi-curious and is open to dabble in a threesome (for recreational sex only. ie: Open in Body.)
• She is open to a non-monogamous relationship with you in the shape of hard swinging, either swinging as singles or swinging as a couple.

We circle back around to the thing you do not seem to want deal with straight up:

• Accept the woman's limits. She is articulating them. Make your decision to be in right relationship with her.

Stop being a pushy polyamorous swinging person. Does not flatter you and it is not ethical to flat out ignore your partner's stated wants/needs/limits. That is not loving behavior toward your partner. That is not being in right relationship with your partner.

She does not want poly. She's seeming ok with hard swing. It is what is is. You are in a non-monogamous relationship with monoamorous her that can include swinging play partners. Having received this information from her your ethical choices as I see them are:

• If you want to hard swing with her and can be happy there? Keep it there then and enjoy your partner sharing this much with you where you DO have common ground to share and can explore. Stop badgering her on exploring polyamorous relationship structure together. Badgering is not loving behavior.

• If you want swinging AND polyamory at this time -- but your partner does NOT want that combo this time, then something has to go.
  
  • a) Choose to lose the desire for polyship relationship WITH your partner. Lose the polyship dream and accept it just won't fly here. Because you value the partner more than the polyshipping at this time. And because you value her? Stop badgering her on exploring polyamorous relationship structure together. Badgering is not loving behavior.
  • b) Chose to be Open to polyamorous relationship without her and so set her free. Break up clean so you can fly the dream then. Because you value your free polyshipping ability at this time more than you love being in this "Heart monoamorous / Body non-monogamous" type relationship with this partner.

I cannot see any other ethical choice to make. Perhaps you do, but I cannot.

So faced with those choices? Own it. Decide. Both choices are ethical and both honor and respect her limits so you can remain in right relationship to her either as your "partner" person or as your "good ex who is now a friend" person.

GG

 

[PolyPhonic]

Haven't read these last 3 responses. Typing from my phone slowly. I just did the breakup talk. This sh** has been real for the last 2 hours. I'll post more soon.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry to hear it comes down to a break up thing. That is never fun.

But at least it is moving you both forward toward future happiness even if the present time is unfun. You definitely could not continue on this way with a mismatch on wants/needs from the relationship and unable to see eye to eye or find common ground.

Hopefully this transition time will go as smooth/quick/clean as possible for both, and your child(ren) and both of you will be provided for well in the restore/rebuild time as you find the "new normal." May it be so.

GL!
GG

 

[CielDuMatin]

Evan,

I can understand that this is tough, but I really do think that is is the most respectful thing for both of you. It allows you both to stay true to your principles and will allow you to further refine what you need in order to be happy.

Not sure if you are going to want to continue the conversation, here, since your issues with this relationship were the starting point, but if you want to use us as sounding boards for your future plans (maybe once you have had some time to process your changes) please feel free.

 

[BoringGuy]

I know what evan's deal is now. He thought he would come here and the open-minded, secure poly people would tell him that he has the right ideas and his wife sounds like a closet poly, and that should be nurtured or something so that he can generously enable her to grow into the full person she is capable of being. Etc.

Instead, the bullying closed-minded insecure poly people said, "your wife is a big girl, i mean, grown woman who sounds quite capable of deciding these things for herself. Not only has she decided, but she seems to have communicated it quite clearly to you despite the language barrier and your experience as a professional poker player. What part of "NO" don't you understand?"

 

[YouAreHere]

Sorry to hear about the breakup, but I agree with others who have said that if your goals for your relationship are at odds, then this is probably for the best, even though it feels awful right now. Hoping for the best for you and all involved...

That said, I did have to address this:

God don't you just love how conflicted monos who can't embrace their inner poly get? (Wouldn't a monogamous person interested in threesomes be a candidate for being a closet poly?)

No, and no.

A threesome can just be sex, can be exploration of "what if I were with a woman", can be lots of things, but it does not have to be Poly (there doesn't have to be ANY emotion or love behind that at all). It can even be "he wants this so I'll make him happy", which is just sad, IMO.

Please don't assume Monos have a self that is "inner Poly" - I went around the axle a few times with my partner about that, early on in the relationship. It's insulting when it's intimated that we don't know our own hearts about something. There are folks who really ARE Poly at heart and didn't realize it (I know there are a few here who found themselves later in life), but that's for each individual to work out, and not for people to be told by others.

 

[WhatHappened]

Like I said, I should have said "pussy block" but it wouldn't have worked out of context, it just sounded better to use the proverbial phrase "cock block". It didn't need to be a big huge negative thing. It was to illustrate that she was preventing something that I wanted.

And this is exactly the point. You appear to regard her and treat her and speak about her, not as a human being with her own wants and needs and desires in a relationship, but as someone preventing you getting what you want. So you call her a vulgar name.

Pussy block, cock block, it's beside the point. It's all name-calling.

Relationships are give and take. If it's not a match, it's not. A mature person acknowledges that the wants and needs are mutually incompatible and can accept it and still regard the other person with respect and love. If you respect and love her, it does not show when you call her names. I hope you don't call her names like that to her face.

 

[CielDuMatin]

To try to be fair, Evan isn't the first person that has come here hoping for some particular way of making someone they love change their mind when it comes to poly. Most of my work on this front was done before these sorts of fora existed, but I remember the number of nights that I lay awake, wracking my brain, trying to think of how to explain it all to her and make her understand, because I had to entertain the idea that the reason she was saying "no" wasn't because she wasn't poly, but that I hadn't found the best way of explaining it yet and that I really, really needed to find that. It was a deficiency in me, and I needed to work on that.

Evan's delivery style triggered quite a few people, here (including me). I am still unsure of his mind-set about a lot of things and am hoping that most of it can be put down to word choices and having that "poly fantasy" that will not go away. His life, experiences and lifestyle are very far removed from most of our experiences and our paradigms (how many of you have experienced life on a Caribbean island - from my own experiences it is *quite* different in a lot of ways from what most of us are used to) - in so many ways he is coming at this from a very different place than most of us, but is facing a lot of quite similar issues.

But like most people that come here, they come to learn, and we need to be cognizant of that, rather than resorting to mockery.

 

[PolyPhonic]

in so many ways he is coming at this from a very different place than most of us, but is facing a lot of quite similar issues

Yes. I think I understand what it feels like to be so "different", such a social paradigm, to have a latent lifestyle change within be discovered and come out, a lifestyle change that society rejects, and I do think that because my situation is on an island in the Caribbean paradise it made it easy for people in the Poly community to try and reject me as well. I was made to think I was weird by Polys. That made me feel even more on my own with my feelings in discovering I'm poly, and made me doubt that I am Poly.

I thought that Poly and Open Minded were synonymous and expected a better class of "embracing differences" to be found here. Instead I found a lot of people acting insecure with me and my existence.

Part of what makes me Poly, heck maybe everything that makes me Poly... is my open mind, my empathy, compassion, caring, ability to share, to feel love without limits, to have no limits when it comes to making people happy, and to be someone who thinks outside the box and not just in a bigger box!

It's been a real eye opener to see so many people that do not share that same mentality as I thought that was a core part of being Poly. I have to accept that embracing Poly is going to have to come with poly people who I do not share the same beliefs with.

 

[PolyPhonic]

But like most people that come here, they come to learn, and we need to be cognizant of that, rather than resorting to mockery.

And that is how I lead my life Ciel. A person may not be in the same place as you in the moment you are talking with them, but it's important to have compassion and not to define them by the way they are in that moment. A person is capable of maturing, changing, forgiveness, and so many things that evolve us. I could never typecast someone and reject them based on the typecast. Mockery is cool, it can be really funny, and it's a nice lightweight way to deal with things when you are uncomfortable with being serious, but yeah I think that when it comes to someone trying to learn something, especially if they are asking for advice, mockery is really borderline cruel. It's cool. I love you all. We are all human and we all have something wonderful to offer the world, deep inside.

 

[PolyPhonic]

UPDATE: It's like we broke up, but we're back together. So I'm not sure where this is going, but I told her to go, I let her go, and yet at the moment we are still together because we love each other. I'm talking about how I want to lead my life, and right now we are still within the love we still feel for each other, so I guess we are in a neutral safe negotiating place. Kudos to her for being able to even fathom any of this. I was worried about her taking her own life last night. We went through a lot. She almost cut up our wedding dress. But I did my best to protect her from being destructive. Outside of those moments, nothing was ever said or done from hate, and included questions, sadness, and love. Everything is ok at the moment. Another day to digest our differences, and make the best decisions. That is how we're approaching it at the moment. Still in process...

 

[Phy]

Please note that there is not 'one' kind of poly. You will find many different approaches with many different ways of living some kind of poly in everyday life. Don't assume that people have to see the whole concept like you do just because they lead some kind of poly relationship. There are some who want to stay single and unattached to their partners financially, in regard to living space or shared activities or whatever you can think of. Others (like me) would love to include their partners in every part of their life, living together, raising children, building a home and so on. Those are vastly different concepts but both belong to the poly group.

And what rubbed most in the wrong way was that you seemed to talk about things that per definition don't belong to poly relationships (for example, swinging is focused on sex and not part of a poly relationship per se). Of course people get defensive of the general idea if they feel that you are confusing some basic concepts.

And lastly: There are so many comign here and seeking help and in most cases there are some underlying patterns that can be made out as destructive in 99% of the cases. Again, some of the things you spoke about were of that kind and people tried to warn you that this may be no healthy concept to pursue in regard to building some stable poly relationships. This doesn't have anything to do with their open mindedness, it is just experience that made them warn you and point out the possible red flags in your story.

 

[PolyPhonic]

And what rubbed most in the wrong way was that you seemed to talk about things that per definition don't belong to poly relationships (for example, swinging is focused on sex and not part of a poly relationship per se). Of course people get defensive of the general idea if they feel that you are confusing some basic concepts.

Right yeah, I didn't even understand that. But it was great that anyone sensed my confusion and helped define that for me because that came up last night and assured us that I am DEFINITELY Poly. I kept telling her that I wanted to be with other women, but it wasn't about sex. And now I understand that she was only ok with that if it was about sex. So when I told her it involved feelings/emotions, that really hurt her the most, and through that I really understood that what I want is Poly not Swinging. I don't enjoy non-meaningful intimacy. And she understood better that I am Poly and that she does not want to be like that.

 

[Phy]

I kept telling her that I wanted to be with other women, but it wasn't about sex. And now I understand that she was only ok with that if it was about sex. So when I told her it involved feelings/emotions, that really hurt her the most, and through that I really understood that what I want is Poly not Swinging. I don't enjoy non-meaningful intimacy.

Ah, well that sounds familiar. That is another of those basic things when first confronted with poly: there are some who seem to have a better handle of the emotional side of it and some that are more comfortable with the physical part. I have both concepts 'at home' as my boyfriend has had no problem with my feelings for my husband but was greatly upset about the physical part of our relationship in the beginning and vice versa in the case of my husband, who thought that the fact that I was intimate with another man was hot and struggled a bit with me having emotions for the other. We came around this by now, one of my last blog entries is dealing with the aftermaths of those insecurities but that took us about a year's time.

For some emotions are a great threat. If you love a person your partner can be sure that this person will play a huge role in your life. A physical relationship can be handled as 'just sex' and a fleeting experience. This may be the root for her discomfort as from her point of view, it threatens her place in your life as a person loved by you. The concept that love isn't something like a pie that has to be divided into pieces and therefore gets lesser the more people want a piece of it isn't something she learned up to now. My husband came to terms with this when he experienced the love between him and me not diminishing while witnessing the love between my boyfriend and I growing from day to day.

But again: This will need some time to sink in and for her to wrap her mind around it.

 

[CielDuMatin]

Please don't assume that poly folk are automatically open-minded to other ideas. There may well be a tendency to be more open-minded, but that doesn't mean that it's a requirement. In fact I have met some extremely closed-minded poly folk often these are the so-called "One True Wayers" to believe that *their* style of poly is the only right one, and that everyone else should be put down because they are so obviously inferior.

I had a gay friend that believed that in their hearts, everyone was gay. Oh and bisexuals? They were just confused.

No sector of society has the monopoly on open-mindedness, in my experience.

We have seen far too many come into forums like this, proclaiming that they were poly, but in fact, just wanted to have sex with lots of people. We have had misogynists who wanted to build a harem and who believed that women were only there to keep a man satisfied and have his babies. Some of us have had actual experience (usually very bad to horrible) with men like this. For this reason I have learned that choice of wording is very, very important on fora. I think that you have ample examples in your two threads of wording that you have used that has rubbed folks the wrong way, or triggered them. A lot of the mockery that you have seen has been because of this.

And, when it comes down to it, a lot of the issues that you are having, a lot of the thoughts that are running through your head, aren't that atypical of a lot of folks' stories.

As for your current situation - it sounds like it really did get real. Now the real thinking is getting done - the realization that there are non-negotiables here, whether or not they are compatible, and the consequences of what happens when they aren't.

This stuff is tough.