Huge Problem likely Small Issue for your veterans, please help

Another thing about my own behavior here on the forum as interpreted by others who have been here for a long time: This is new to me. And I think it's probably within reason that part of opening up can be opening up too much. Overextending ideas. Seeing what happens when you embrace ideas that are new to you or that you thought of, only to find out you get bit back. Part of the growth process I would think.
 
That would be a different forum. Here we talk about love, sex, relationships, poly, etc. But I guess you could open a dialogue up on how Philanthropy compares to the concept of Compersion. If you even care to be serious on this forum. That might be worth discussing, instead of sarcastic cliffhangers.


Who died and made you a moderator here?

You should start your own forum for rich white men who want to start harems of poor local girls in small third-world countries. Then you can be in complete control and any men who don't agree with you can be turned away. Young Latin women will be encouraged to stay.
 
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Who died and made you a moderator here?
FORUM GUIDELINES:
"These discussion boards were founded to provide space for all manner of discussion about polyamory"

"The founder and moderation staff hope that site members can find kindred souls to offer support and insight in a civil and possibly friendly, caring fashion"


You're free to continue disrespecting their wishes. I have no problem with you as a person. Only that you are disappointing me, them, and other people here who wish to make this an informative place for the Poly community. I am only making suggestions to you to honor the privilege of being a member here by following their wishes. If not, don't blame me when people such as myself tell you you are off topic, rude, uncaring, and other things the moderators themselves might tell you if they had to take the time to intervene.
 
It's just called having a clue.

I think you should go watch more Showtime, HBO, and Pay Per View. It's what you seem to have a clue about.

Don't worry about the moderators, they're capable of handling this place without any help from you. They do not need you to keep people in "the zone". Save that for your den of girls.
 
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Any chance we could quit the fighting and talk about the issues? BoringGuy I find that you are being extremely confrontational, and I would appreciate it if you either contributed to discussing the issues at hand or stay away from the thread, if it triggers you so badly.

This forum IS about polyamory, which includes love and relationships, and is not about folks' philanthropic activities, unless somehow relevant. Nobody died and made anybody new moderator - discussion of relationships of all types is what the forum is for. Could we have a little less combativeness, please?

PolyPhonic, part of the problem I see here is that your background, upbringing and lifestyle are so fundamentally different from nearly everyone on here (and most of society). As a consequence your paradigms, based on your life experiences, are very very different from others here. Some of the things that are, in your experience, completely natural and normal are triggers for others. Some of what you are seeing is this mismatch of paradigms, and have generated hostile reactions. Some of these reactions may well seem quite foreign to you - you may not realise why people are reacting so vehemently to the things you are saying.

The type of poly that you are looking for is not egalitarian - the dynamic is very much you as a leader, and having folks that are willing to acknowledge that and be happy living that way. There is a lot of emphasis on most poly fora on more egalitarian forms. These two are in conflict here.

I am doing my best to try to put myself in your shoes, given my limited experience with your style of life, trying to look at what you are thinking of through a different set of eyes. Trying to give you an outside perspective without judging you. Nobody has walked a mile in your shoes - while some may see privilege as a unadulterated good life with no concerns, I know that often this is very far from the truth.

I think that the only other major thing that I want to touch on right now is the issue of the children. Children tend to do best with a stable home life. Stability doesn't have to be one man and one woman, of course - it can be any combination of any gender. But a revolving cast of characters at home can be exceedingly disruptive to a child, especially if they witness the associated drama and other arguments. While you and your amours may well have a choice to be there, the children don't. I think that you have a responsibility to consider this in your decision-making as well.

I welcome your comments on this and other posts I have made.
 
Any chance we could quit the fighting and talk about the issues? BoringGuy I find that you are being extremely confrontational, and I would appreciate it if you either contributed to discussing the issues at hand or stay away from the thread, if it triggers you so badly.

"do things my way and I'll feed you and buy you things, or you can leave and I won't buy you things anymore" seems to be "triggering" other people besides myself. I don't see you telling those other people to stop saying what's on their minds. So, request denied.


This forum IS about polyamory, which includes love and relationships, and is not about folks' philanthropic activities, unless somehow relevant. Nobody died and made anybody new moderator - discussion of relationships of all types is what the forum is for. Could we have a little less combativeness, please?

Request denied. This is not a blog thread. Evan has been advised that if he wants to pontificate without subjecting himself to critique, he should start a blog thread. He has ignored that advice, which is his prerogative, but it doesn't change the reality.

Also, Evan was the one who brought up orphan homeless boys not knowing what/who Andy Warhol is/was when NYCindie was commenting on his statement about "merging with a cultured westerner". So, don't give me crap about being "off topic". thanks anyway.

Evan has been asked many things in this thread and has been given civilized, thoughtful commentary which he has ignored or written off as "bullying" because it doesn't agree with his fantasy. He has cherry-picked the comments to suit his agenda. I fail to see how that is my problem. It is NOT my problem.

I can take care of myself and own my own words, thank you very much.
 
I think that the only other major thing that I want to touch on right now is the issue of the children. Children tend to do best with a stable home life. Stability doesn't have to be one man and one woman, of course - it can be any combination of any gender. But a revolving cast of characters at home can be exceedingly disruptive to a child, especially if they witness the associated drama and other arguments. While you and your amours may well have a choice to be there, the children don't. I think that you have a responsibility to consider this in your decision-making as well.

I asked him this way at the beginning of this thread and even apologized if i came across as offensive and judgmental. Evan answered with a detailed list of relationships he's had with women throughout his life. This is one example of the evasiveness and "cherry-picking" that I referred to in my previous post.

To me, Evan seems very narcissistic and really seems to believe he has other people's best interest in mind, when to many of us he's just another guy who thinks money can buy love. That is what is "triggering" people on this forum.

ETA: and it's frightening that there are at least seven people who are being raised to believe that this is a healthy way to relate to other human beings. Am I still being insensitive and uncaring?
 
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Several trains of thought on this:

1. PolyPhonic's way of life =/= your average Jane Poly's way of life. I have had to get my head around this, since mine is... well, I'm probably not going to make it to any islands anytime soon.

2. What we prioritize =/= what the women in PolyPhonic's dating pool may prioritize. I wouldn't enter the type of arrangement PolyPhonic proposes unless the man in question were gay and looking for a beard; that said, I am also a bit proud, and was raised by a socialist feminist German living in America and her ex-GI husband. Needless to say, I have not got enough in common with a Caracole to understand her motives except biological sex.

3. There is a difference between a firm approach and a mean one. Allow me to assure BoringGuy that I have not fallen into anyone's thrall and can, in fact, think of the children -- they are the ones who do not get to choose what their parents do. In fact, I have asked PolyPhonic to consider them before anyone else, in PM. I am a failure as an ethical non-monogamist if I do not, firmly but calmly, raise questions regarding ethics. I am not a failure if I am able to see, at least, that this too falls under the umbrella. I am able to do that without lapsing into confrontation; I lost my temper, again in PM, because I thought something was going on that wasn't. Aggression seems needless in this case and pointless besides; PolyPhonic does not appear inclined to listen to aggression.

He's not Daffodil, all right? He's not spouting hate like "she" was ("she" turned out to be a troll account). Naiveté, perhaps, but hate? Which in any event is never quelled by more hate.
 
Serious question - you are of the opinion that when he said his wife was "cock-blocking" him, then followed up with an explanation that what he meant by it was that she was preventing him from getting something he wants - that was because of naivete and living on an island? That's what you believe? Because Evan was not raised on this Island. He was raised in the US, and spent quite a bit of time in Hollywood, according to his own account in this here very thread. They only moved to the island like two years ago, or recently than that. How do you account for this "island culture" shaping his views? I think he is just clueless, or pretending to be clueless.

Also, Love from Girl, I wasn't worried about you being in anyone's "thrall" (I couldn't have used that word because I don't even know what it means, although I'll go look it up right after I'm done writing this) or you "not thinking of the children". I'm not sure where you got that from.

ETA: From Wiki: Thrall (Old Norse þræll) was the term for a serf or unfree servant in Scandinavian culture during the Viking Age.

Excellent. I've added a new word to my vocabulary.
 
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...when he said his wife was "cock-blocking" him, then followed up with an explanation that what he meant by it was that she was preventing him from getting something he wants - that was because of naivete and living on an island? ... Evan was not raised on this Island. He was raised in the US, and spent quite a bit of time in Hollywood, according to his own account in this here very thread.

If calling a woman a vulgar name, like cock-blocker or pussy-blocker, because she 'stands in the way of something he wants' is really just a different paradigm, then there's no reason to object to any other man calling women vulgar names, either, whether it's because they stand in the way of those men getting what they want, or for any other reason.

I think the objections that have gone on in this thread are not about anyone failing to understand someone else's differing paradigms. If he knew 25% of the people in Hollywood and dated 40 women there, then he's not some poor naive guy of a different culture who just didn't 'get' how disrespectful it is to call a woman a name like that.
 
If calling a woman a vulgar name, like cock-blocker or pussy-blocker, because she 'stands in the way of something he wants' is really just a different paradigm, then there's no reason to object to any other man calling women vulgar names, either, whether it's because they stand in the way of those men getting what they want, or for any other reason.

I think the objections that have gone on in this thread are not about anyone failing to understand someone else's differing paradigms. If he knew 25% of the people in Hollywood and dated 40 women there, then he's not some poor naive guy of a different culture who just didn't 'get' how disrespectful it is to call a woman a name like that.

Precisely. Maybe they'll like the way you said it better than the way I said it.

May I also add that the OP has bragged about being a professional poker player, to the effect that he can read his wife's secret "inner poly" thoughts.

I'm not making any of this up. It's all here in this thread somewhere, and in that other thread about whales and scissors. But go ahead - blame it on me because I'm referring to it.
 
If calling a woman a vulgar name, like cock-blocker or pussy-blocker, because she 'stands in the way of something he wants' is really just a different paradigm, then there's no reason to object to any other man calling women vulgar names, either, whether it's because they stand in the way of those men getting what they want, or for any other reason.

Did I stammer when I said, earlier, that that sort of thing wasn't ethical? No? [edited: Or at least did I encourage that speech? Also no?] Good. Now that we're on the same page...

I think the objections that have gone on in this thread are not about anyone failing to understand someone else's differing paradigms. If he knew 25% of the people in Hollywood and dated 40 women there, then he's not some poor naive guy of a different culture who just didn't 'get' how disrespectful it is to call a woman a name like that.

I think of Hollywood and the like as insular, very different from anything I experience; yes, I think a man born and raised there could be naive. I met one myself who behaved far worse around women. Be grateful if you haven't. I think women who don't come from that background are a tremendous shock to men who do, and that PP is in for a few of those tremendous shocks. Has had a few, in fact, seeing how the women here have reacted. Nobody changes overnight. My experience with Mr. Hollywood taught me that no, respect for women is not necessarily taught there as it's taught in other environments.

It's not about being on an island -- he's an expat himself! -- as much as it is a lack of understanding of our more robust, more egalitarian women living in the middle class and below. My views are likely just as much a shock to him as his are to me, and we would never be compatible.

Since my interest is in the ethics of the matter and not in any "one true way" to do poly, all I can advise is that everything is considered carefully. Love with everyone's consent. That's the bottom line. The trappings may not be to your taste or mine, but he's got the right to try it out and see how it works.
 
Did I stammer when I said, earlier, that that sort of thing wasn't ethical? No? [edited: Or at least did I encourage that speech? Also no?] Good. Now that we're on the same page...

There's no need for snarkiness. I wasn't addressing you. I was talking about the entire shift of tone in this entire thread.

Love with everyone's consent. That's the bottom line. The trappings may not be to your taste or mine, but he's got the right to try it out and see how it works.

And this is exactly the point. Not only I, but many people, have gotten the distinct impression through the whole thread that this love is not with the consent of Evan's girlfriend, that she has not consented to live like this, but is being pushed along. Yes, of course he can try anything he likes. And I can state that I, personally, don't find it ethical to be pushing someone into this, especially someone who, with four young children (three of her own and one with him, correct?), is in a very difficult position of dependency on him, and calling them vulgar names if they don't agree.
 
And this is exactly the point. Not only I, but many people, have gotten the distinct impression through the whole thread that this love is not with the consent of Evan's girlfriend, that she has not consented to live like this, but is being pushed along. Yes, of course he can try anything he likes. And I can state that I, personally, don't find it ethical to be pushing someone into this, especially someone who, with four young children (three of her own and one with him, correct?), is in a very difficult position of dependency on him, and calling them vulgar names if they don't agree.

Also, here's the thing.

Evan is not the first person to have this particular fantasy and the financial means to realize it. But, that is getting mixed in with the REALITY which What Happened summarized just there. I have personally suggested (respectfully or at least neutrally) that Evan take his fantasy-harem plans (or whatever you call it "Generous enabling with boundaries?") to a blog thread where he can explore without the inconvenience of people disagreeing with him.

In the mean-time, OF COURSE people are going to draw on that fantasy for example and "ammunition", for lack of a nicer word, in rebuttal against Evan's OWN STORIES about condescending, disrespectful, nasty things he says to and about his wife and also through actions WHICH HE TOLD US. Nobody here is making any of this up. I could sit here all night going through this thread and quoting and highlighting where Evan has contradicted himself and ignored people's (respectful or neutral) questions, scolded people because he can dish it out but not take it, but I really don't give a crap enough to go through all that. The reason I registered on this forum was because of the threads that teach people how NOT to treat their partner(s). That is probably the reason i continue to come back to this thread. Not because I am "triggered" by this. This is totally an example of what NOT to do. Like they say, There is no "right" way to "do poly", but there are plenty of WRONG ways.
 
Growing up and living in high levels of privilege is often very isolating. The people around you are disconnected from what most folks think of as "normal life". The rules are very different - how you talk, what you do, even the rules of relationships and "decent behaviour". A lot of relationships are highly dysfunctional, the people highly disingenuous. If you have not experienced it personally, then it can be very hard to believe just how different it is.

Is PolyPhonic going about dealing with his current relationship the best way? No, I don't believe that he is, and I have tried to respectfully point out the things that he is doing that are problematic. Is his poly dream anything like mine? No it isn't, and I think that it is fraught with all sorts of issues and impracticalities, which I have tried to calmly and respectfully point out.

PP has some decisions to make. If he wants to build his relationships based on what I have seen of the insular nature of privilege then he isn't going to find a lot of resonance here, because not a lot of people here can relate to his situation. If he wants to try to follow the paradigms of the rest of mainstream society then he has a ton of work to do with his current relationship, and adjustments to his expectations for the future.

When we react to someone's posting, we should take a thought as to what goal we are trying to achieve by reacting that way. We have a choice - we can either help him with this, providing advice, pointing out areas of caution, and behaviours that we see from our vantage point as ethically problematic, or we can mock him, pick apart his words and judge him based on our own paradigms. Which of these two achieve any sort of change in a positive direction?

ETA: This insular nature of privileged society has nothing to do with a Caribbean island - it exists in Hollywood, New York City, Spain and quite a few other places. Most of these people do move around quite a bit, because they have property in several locations.
 
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You being the "cultured westerner" who would save them from themselves? Did you really mean to say such a thing? If so, your views are clearly those of a supremacist, and elitist, which is rather disgusting. While you indeed may be from a different culture than the locals, do not for a moment believe that you are more cultured, as in, more advanced, more sophisticated, or superior in any way -- nor that any of the local islanders would want to be "merged" with you for any reason other than to take your money and laugh at you behind your back.
In so many words: This just shows me how much you know.

Your communication is immature, reactive, and contains words that are caustic when coupled with your intentions. If you don't mind fooling yourself by only listening to those who support you (your family and friends), than by all means go on the rest of your life with your immature, reactive, caustic attitude. But if you are interested in maturing, and more respectful communication, you should think about what I've said and check out all the arguments you get in where you leave the argument for the "high ground". Those would be the red flags to look out for, when you behave like that in an argument.

More on topic, can you answer the following of mine in response to what you said above:

IF NOT? (responding to the part of your reply which is marked in bold red)
 
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You being the "cultured westerner" who would save them from themselves? Did you really mean to say such a thing? If so, your views are clearly those of a supremacist, and elitist, which is rather disgusting. While you indeed may be from a different culture than the locals, do not for a moment believe that you are more cultured, as in, more advanced, more sophisticated, or superior in any way -- nor that any of the local islanders would want to be "merged" with you for any reason other than to take your money and laugh at you behind your back.
In the meantime, I just have to say that I think you might have a an overly egalitarian view of things around you that don't apply to egalitarinism. It seems like you no longer have any sensible opinions because you've become jaded by egalitarianism. Like you're fighting for the right for pepper to be salt.

Have you heard of IQ? Is that a myth to you, a conspiracy?

Can everyone who picks coffee be an astronaut?

Have you heard of a book called "The Bell Curve"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve) Do you think that people, due to socio-economic factors, are equally sophisticated in the ghettos of Detroit as they are at Harvard?

Do you think that brains are just...equal? That there is no difference in how they develop around different behavior and environments?


Because you abhor people with opinions or outlooks different than yourself, you get to be a bigot towards them? Don't you think that's presumptuous of you? You come across as a zealot: everything you believe, is true. You're prejudiced.
 
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OMG the smell just keeps ripening.............and anything less than pretending to not smell it is rude when dealing with people who believe they are genetically predetermined to lord over others. Its so cultured to think this way yet somehow also so naive and deserving of a good coddling?
 
In response to my request for more respectful conversation (to quit fighting and talk about the issues):
So, request denied.

In response to my request to be more accepting of all different types of polyamory, not just those with which we agree:
Request denied.

These are both things that are laid out under the user guidelines of this forum, which I was trying to bring up in a respectful way to hopefully bring the discussion back on track. Since you are clearly refusing to do that, the discussion must now continue in other places.
 
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