I'm a hypocrite, and I don't know what to do

[anamikanon]

I tried to address the ownership thing last night and things got bad. I spent a good 10 minutes bawling last night.

Hate to say this, but the person being taken for granted in a relationship is NEVER able to directly challenge it successfully - if they were taken that seriously, they wouldn't be taken for granted. At least I have not seen it happen as a direct challenge. At best a part of a larger issue that leads to an epiphany on his part - not looking likely.

Yesterday he had also talked to Sam suggesting that she talk to a counselor to get over her jealousy of seeing him with me. She threw the idea back at him.

He is trying to get both of you to play to his wishes. She isn't playing the game. You are still in it.

Today he sent us both a text that he needs to be alone with his thoughts today. He feels that neither of us wants to be with the him the way that he is and that we should decide if we want to be with him because he doesn't think he's worth the angst.

This is the martyrdom both Ravenscroft and I pointed out. Basically he's dumping the emotional responsibility of a mess largely of his creating on anyone except himself. Edit: "Be with him as he is" is basically passive aggressive code for he is not going to change and you have to accept this, because of how it is presented - if you don't accept, you're the abuser and he is the victim who is not allowed to be himself in a relationship with you. Of course, it is a head fake. He's writing the rules for everyone on the fly and emotionally blackmailing you into falling into place.

Sooo, we went from having an amazing 3 days of getting to know each other better and deepening our relationships to this. I feel like it's all effed up. At least Sam and I are giving each other support today.

I don't think it can get better while you are analyzing things. Either you fall in with his wishes or you break free. 3 days went well because you were doing what he wanted. His melodrama had ensured that you dropped the idea of other men, and you making an effort to get along with Sam catered to his desire to have that relationship while denying you yours.

You questioning him was never part of the deal. You did that, you got punished with melodrama, martyrdom and basically passive aggressive punishment. Whether he is doing this deliberately or whether it is simply an unhealthy manner of being in relationships is irrelevant at this point, because you lack the position to influence change important for your dignity and well being in the relationship.

 

[powerpuffgrl1969]

Funslut, I'm with the camp that he is actively manipulating you at this point. I was trying to see things from his perspective a bit at first, but that remark he made about how he "isn't worth the trouble," is pure crap.

 

[Tinwen]

I tried to address the ownership thing last night and things got bad. I spent a good 10 minutes bawling last night.
Yesterday he had also talked to Sam suggesting that she talk to a counselor to get over her jealousy of seeing him with me. She threw the idea back at him.

Seems you're taking the "negotiation" seriously Yeah, two hard conversations in a day can contribute to bad endings (although I imagine yours was the more serious).

Today he sent us both a text that he needs to be alone with his thoughts today.

So he should - be alone and reflect. It's a necessary crisis. Either he'll draw consequences for himself, or not.

He feels that neither of us wants to be with the him the way that he is and that we should decide if we want to be with him because he doesn't think he's worth the angst.

Oh I'm sure somebody will have some hard words about that, I'm obviously not the woman for the job at this forum. Anyway, even I can recognize the guilt trip. You don't have to accept everything about your partner.

You're in a tough spot where pain (hopefully growing pain) can't be avoided, and I wish you best of luck.

 

[GalaGirl]

I tried to address the ownership thing last night and things got bad. I spent a good 10 minutes bawling last night.

Sorry to hear that. I think that's not something you can address on your own with him. I think that's a topic for couple counseling.

Yesterday he had also talked to Sam suggesting that she talk to a counselor to get over her jealousy of seeing him with me. She threw the idea back at him.

She is not wrong. He has his own work to be doing on himself. So it's not fair to be pointing out her areas that need work when he has his own.

Today he sent us both a text that he needs to be alone with his thoughts today. He feels that neither of us wants to be with the him the way that he is and that we should decide if we want to be with him because he doesn't think he's worth the angst.

Alright. At this point in time it sounds like...

• He doesn't want to Close

• He is up for a shared GF, or dating women separately. He won't stop you from dating guys, but he's not confident he can handle it and cannot say he will stick around if you do

• He doesn't want to address issues with you at this time (the ownership thing, you eventually dating guys, possible leftovers from his other wife cheating, etc)

• He doesn't want to do conflict resolution or work on himself at this time. Those things are hard to do. Instead of seeking counseling help to help him break it down into more manageable chunks, it sounds like he prefers to just not do it. He says he comes "As is."

• He chooses to frame it in a "Nobody wants to be with me, I'm not worth it " kind of way. That attitude in of itself could be added to the list of issues above -- not being emotionally resilient, making himself a "victim" or learned helplessness or whatever it is. It doesn't take away from the list of issues. It ADDS a new one. Now instead of dealing with the original load of issues first, his partners (You and S) may have to take a side trip to pump him back up because he deflated himself before addressing the original issue. Do that enough times and it gets to be a drag. You guys don't exist to pump him back up whenever he deflates himself. He could learn not to deflate himself in the first place. Take personal responsibility for himself.

I think you cannot do the work of two people on your side of the V. Holding your side of the stick AND his side. That's the path to burning out. You cannot end up "carrying" him all the time doing his emotional labor for him.

I am sorry things are hard, but the only way is THROUGH. He has to be able to hold up his end of the stick and not go into total shut down any time there's hard emotions or conflict resolution to do. Confidence is grown by DOING. Like a muscle you exercise to get stronger. You don't grow more confident in solving problems by avoiding dealing with them forever.

• He made a request. He wants space today. That is fair -- Give him the space. You guys have been processing for several days in a row already. That gets tiring.

• If he needs a longer time? Make an appointment a few weeks out to check in with him if he doesn't check in himself sooner. Then give him the space for the next X weeks and live regular ol' life in the meanwhile. Wait. During that time? Do not rescue him from his discomfort. Let him sit with his thoughts and feelings and let him sort out his own emotional baggage for X weeks.

At the check in, you could address things head on.

• If the problem is too much processing back to back? Pace this stuff OUT. Some problems can be solved in a day or two. Some are too big to solve like that so you set a time aside once a week or so to chip away at some and then take a break so you can have life/work balance. Your whole lives cannot be about THIS particular work. There's other Life things to be doing -- eating, sleeping, day job, chores, hanging with friends, etc.

• If you are still happy in marriage Closed, you could ask him again if he is up for Closed or not. Maybe you both conclude that Open stuff isn't worth it and too much of a drag on all so you return to Closed.

• If he's not wanting to Close and keeps wanting to try Open? Ask him if he's now more willing to see a counselor to work on issues if he plans to stay Open. Because the kind of Open he is up for is not the kind you are up for and you want to know this is like "work on progress" and not like "this is all it is ever gonna be" because the inequality bothers you.

• If not willing to be Open like "work in progress?" This is all the Open is ever gonna be? Then take him at his word.

This is all you will get here for Open. There will be no working on issues. If these things are important to you and they are not going to be addressed? Separate and live apart for a while. Not like giving him space for a week or two, but like living apart for 6 months+.

Let him really think it out.

• If it leads to reconciliation, great.
  
• If it leads to divorce, at least you were trying to sort things out step by step.

But you cannot work with a someone who isn't present or who gets all deflated and floppy any time there is a rough patch. Life comes with its ups and downs.

Trying to relate to a person who bails any time things get rough is hard. It can become a drain on you. You think you have a solid partner through all kinds of "life weather" and it's more like "fair weather friend."

It is not your job to pump him up or carry him. He has to be able to stand on his own two feet. Each one does their own fair share of the load.

Galagirl

 

[anamikanon]

Can a mod split this thread?

Is it possible to split this thread so that FunSlut's post and replies to it go on a separate thread?

The way I see this, it is a real issue with advice needed (and possible - WOW) on both ends and the ones to Miket are getting lost in the latest replies which are mostly to FunSlut because she is engaging. Also because a lot of the advice to FunSlut is going to look at how Miket behaves in a fairly brutal light, it may end up making him feel unwelcome on his own thread.

There is a vast difference in the situation as perceived on both ends. For Miket it is more of an issue of his in/ability to handle FunSlut's being with another man. For FunSlut it appears to have moved into managing herself in an unhealthy relationship.

 

[FunSlut]

I would be fine with my posts being split out. However, miket got overwhelmed with this thread after responding to the first 3 posts. I doubt he will be back.

Last night he went to a restaurant and got drunk. Sam brought him home. This is after promising me last week that he would stop overindulging in alcohol. Plus, he drank a ton Friday night and woke up feeling poorly. Likely a hangover. He has alcohol abuse issues that we've been dealing with off and on during our marriage. It's part of the inability to cope issue.

This morning he texted me that he doesn't know what to say to me, he reached a breaking point and is numb. He doesn't care what I do anymore, so I won. He reminded me that I might never get the life I want with him so I should decide if he's right for me.

I mentioned that I was mistaken for a worker at our house. He said "fat chance" and I started crying. He was quick to text that it was a joke but it was too late. Way too close to home. I told him he hurt my feelings and maybe we should talk about division of chores. He assured me it was fine, a joke, I work hard.

Then I said we have a lot to talk about. He said maybe we aren't compatible, I hurt you and I'm not who you want me to be. I asked him if he is who HE wants to be and he said he doesn't know.

He is spending the night at Sam's house. His goal is to do 3 nights there and 4 nights here each week to "be fair." But that's something he decided without consulting either of us.

Tonight he is still sad and down.

I don't know how to discuss any of our issues without first resolving his inability to cope. We're looking into marriage counseling.
Sam and I are wondering why this is so blown up out of proportion. And why he keeps presuming to tell us what we want or should think about.

 

[anamikanon]

Some ways Miket reacts reminds me a lot about Spexy. Inability to process emotions and communication when it gets hard, getting overloaded and "numb" and so on. extreme melodramatic reactions and inability for normal conversations about a problem...

We had hit a crisis in our relationship when Spexy got involved with another woman. Taking me for granted, manipulative behavior, unilaterally deciding things, thinking he wasn't worth having a relationship with.... A lot of this happened in our relationship, though his other relationship didn't last. We worked through a lot of issues, it took a lot of patience. It helped that I am fairly good with behavioral stuff. He also initially went to a psychologist, thought that didn't work out - it still isn't off the table.

We were able to identify several of his recurring dysfunctional patterns as Avoidant Personality Disorder and Pathological Demand Avoidance. It occurs to me that he may find it useful to meet a psychologist to help with developing more functional responses that are aligned with his intent.

For us, the bad news was:

Even if there were serious disorders, it didn't change what needed to be done - to behave in a functional manner. The work would still have to be done and it would be harder than it is for the "normal" person (if such a thing exists - but say someone without that specific problem).

The good news was:

Now that I knew what we were dealing with, I could head off a lot of the drama by calling out evasions and manipulations directly and asking him to rephrase - rather than letting them traumatize me or damage our relationship. He also was able to learn to discount dysfunctional trains of thought by recognizing that it was his disorder giving him a very warped view of reality.

This is not to say he didn't do very serious wrongs, but that what essentially was a cheating affair and massive insensitivity to me actually got addressed and on the path to healing by addressing the things that made his insensitivity, evasions and lying so compulsive. We both ended up learning a lot - about ourselves as well as each other.

But frankly, if it was anyone other than Spexy, I wouldn't have bothered. Luckily before I met Spexy the asshole, I'd met Spexy the man who stood by me no matter what and frankly even through being an asshole he did that. So I had solid reason to wonder what the hell was going on. If he cares, why is he acting like this, if he doesn't, why the heck is he flying down to another city over and over to be there in need?

 

[FallenAngelina]

Last night he went to a restaurant and got drunk. Sam brought him home. This is after promising me last week that he would stop overindulging in alcohol. Plus, he drank a ton Friday night and woke up feeling poorly. Likely a hangover. He has alcohol abuse issues that we've been dealing with off and on during our marriage. It's part of the inability to cope issue.

Another lead that was buried.

This is enormous information and explains a lot about your communication pattern and challenges with Mike. There is so much to understand about dealing with a substance user/abuser, so i won't point out the particulars, but now that we have this information, it explains everything about why you're all struggling. Poly isn't the problem here. If you do seek marriage counseling, consider consulting a therapist who is well versed in alcohol related family systems. It's always a family issue and everyone needs to work on his/her part, even though one person (in this case, Mike) will take the "problem child" role around which all of the upset seemingly swirls. Everyone in your family is involved in this, which includes Sam.

 

[GalaGirl]

I don't know how to discuss any of our issues without first resolving his inability to cope. We're looking into marriage counseling.

I can see where that is an obstacle.

It sounds like a lot of layers here -- so trying to talk it all out on your own may not be effective. I think seeking marriage counseling help is a good next step. A professional might be able get you guys through the discussions better and sort the layers.

It sounds like he's shutting down/going back to drinking. If he's got a history with alcohol problems that could be another issue exacerbating things. If he's shutting down in various ways? I think you could try take the pot off the burner.

Put everything on "pause" for now, and focus on making and then getting to your therapy appointment. Hopefully more productive discussion can emerge there.

Try to just live normal life in the meanwhile -- as normal as possible. And sort these issues out one at a time with a counselor's help.

Sam and I are wondering why this is so blown up out of proportion. And why he keeps presuming to tell us what we want or should think about.

I suppose you could keep a list of things that you want to talk to therapist about? Like not try to talk about it with Miket right this minute, but try to take notes so you can organize your thoughts better later?

You might consider individual therapy along with the couple counseling.

Galagirl

 

[anamikanon]

One thing that occurs to me is at this point, both of you need to decide what YOU WANT and move from there. Do you want to be with him? Know that it is going to be hard while you resolve all this. Does he want to be with you? No, his assessment of whether he is good enough or what you need or what he is able to do, etc is not what he WANTS. Does he want to be with you enough to go through the hard time coming ahead?

Then you need to come to decisions like what about the alcoholism? What about Samantha? What about your freedom to have your own relationships? And so on.

If the first two are not a solid yes, you are better off separating and moving on. If the above two are a yes, then you need that turned into a concrete milestone from where you will be moving forward. Then no more "maybe you are better off, blah blah" - you may be better off apart, but you have DECIDED to be together, so it would be nice to not undermine it as an alternative to difficult conversations.

It sort of lets you create a space where you know you will be working on your relationship.

Another factor is alcoholism. It usually complicates everything. I don't know how much support you have had with this, but it may be a good idea to attend Al Anon meetings. Also to mentally come to peace with the fact that the near future is going to be similar to living with a mental patient - which an alcoholic is, no matter how functional currently. This is going to mean he will act in hurtful or inexplicable ways or create awkward social situations leaving you to deal with an aftermath he doesn't feel able to handle. You may never be treated fairly or with respect. I don't know anyone who has been able to de-escalate from the problems of alcoholism without quitting - which he doesn't seem to be up for yet. Are you up for all that? Should you have to go through that? Only you know that answer.

Just because he is an alcoholic does not mean he gets a free pass to be unkind to you. You have to decide whether the hit to your dignity in the relationship is worth the highs.

Perhaps counselling can help you create this basic space to move forward from, if the two of you want to make it work. I wouldn't blame you for wanting to cut and run. He seems committed to a downward spiral at the moment.

 

[Tinwen]

One thing that occurs to me is at this point, both of you need to decide what YOU WANT and move from there. Do you want to be with him? Know that it is going to be hard while you resolve all this. Does he want to be with you? No, his assessment of whether he is good enough or what you need or what he is able to do, etc is not what he WANTS. Does he want to be with you enough to go through the hard time coming ahead?

Anamikanon makes it sound (probably not intentionally) a bit like you have to answer that question this very minute, which would scare the shit out of me. If you don't know, take your time. As the situation and counselling progress you may get more clarity.

 

[anamikanon]

Anamikanon makes it sound (probably not intentionally) a bit like you have to answer that question this very minute, which would scare the shit out of me. If you don't know, take your time. As the situation and counselling progress you may get more clarity.

Not "this very minute" but I did mean it as a starting point. Unless both are committed to wanting the relationship to work and working on it, MikeT is likely to default back to her not wanting him, him not living up to her expectations, etc every time he is in a hard spot. Of course, life is life and they can fail or change their mind at any point, but there is no point drifting into fixing massive issues between them unless there is serious intent backing it on the part of both of them. One wants and the other in a "I'm no good you might as well go" is not a starting point to couple therapy, it is a starting point to martyrdom.

 

[anamikanon]

Anamikanon makes it sound (probably not intentionally) a bit like you have to answer that question this very minute, which would scare the shit out of me. If you don't know, take your time. As the situation and counselling progress you may get more clarity.

The situation FunSlut has described IS scary. He's hiding down a bottle while taking two women for granted and having his "poly" with unilateral decisions. This is not healthy for anyone, but particularly for FunSlut. Her attempts to speak with him are met with statements that she should move on. In a way he has it right. Dumping him is going to be way easier than making this work and healing all the hurt and the giant share of being credible is going to have to come from him. Unless she has his buy in that he WANTS to remain in the relationship, there is absolutely no point attempting to save it.

For that matter, it isn't going to be easy for her either. Him wanting to work on something and him being able to pull his weight in it or at least enough to not distress her is a long long gap that will be difficult. It will likely get much harder before it gets better once the evasions have to stop. If she doesn't feel willing to take on all that on top of everything she has been through, efforts to fix will only waste her time and add to her trauma for no return.

Something being scary doesn't mean it is not the right or necessary thing in a situation.

 

[Tinwen]

Unless both are committed to wanting the relationship to work and working on it, MikeT is likely to default back to her not wanting him, him not living up to her expectations, etc every time he is in a hard spot. (...) One wants and the other in a "I'm no good you might as well go" is not a starting point to couple therapy, it is a starting point to martyrdom.

I see. So maybe it's the right first question to address.

 

[PinkPig]

Anamikanon makes it sound (probably not intentionally) a bit like you have to answer that question this very minute, which would scare the shit out of me. If you don't know, take your time. As the situation and counselling progress you may get more clarity.

I think this is sound advice. I'd just add that I think individual therapy for each with occasional joint therapy, is generally preferable to couples counseling. My experience is that when one person gets healthier, the whole dynamic changes. Sometimes that means the couple stays together and is healthier. Sometimes it means you walk away. Al-anon may help, too.

 

[Rockit49]

Welcome! To both

Let him hit his bottom!! Alone .... But just send him to meetings first for sure
Hi Fungirl: yeah he isn't the only substance addict here..
Good luck to Y'all! the wisdom, help, and direction is here for all of you if you want it!
IMHO
You guys need to be strong "independent" adults first!
Then if your paths cross again, sweet. Unless you like fun drama like the alternative is....

I'll say a prayer for y'all, sincerely
Toodles

 

[FallenAngelina]

..the near future is going to be similar to living with a mental patient - which an alcoholic is, no matter how functional currently.

Highlighting this. It's important. You're dealing with someone who is never thinking clearly. Any active alcoholic (or problem drinker or whatever euphemism you prefer) has so many factors muddying his/her thinking process. Whether he's been drinking and how much he's been drinking is just one piece of what makes an active alcoholic so challenging to have a relationship with. There are many good reasons that programs like AA and Al-Anon have lifetime members. PinkPig is right that one person can make a huge difference in a relationship - that's one of the founding concepts of Al-Anon. You're never at the mercy of another for your peace of mind and you don't have to leave every alcoholic you know to get there. Al-Anon is a great program for creating a life that is of your choosing, no matter who or what.

Also clarifying for Funslut (and anyone else who loves a problem drinker):
"Functioning alcoholic" is a stage of alcoholism, not a type of person. Alcoholism is progressive.

 

[FunSlut]

Update:

After a lot more ups and downs (mostly downs) and starting couples/poly therapy miket snooped my phone and discovered I had been texting with a man. There was no emotional or physical affair, but some of the texts were inappropriate and I had kept it from him. Now he has moved out of our bedroom and wants a divorce.

It's a culmination of our 5 year relationship. All the problems we (or I) have been dealing with all along blew up and now I'm out like yesterdays trash. Out with the old and in with the new. And he can continue to hide from his pain and rage for a few more years.

He also told the girlfriend some private information about me in order to destroy my relationship with her and she is no longer speaking to me.

Whoever it was that called it deserves a prize!

 

[FallenAngelina]

All the problems we (or I) have been dealing with all along blew up and now I'm out like yesterdays trash.

You can stay with this perception of yourself as a victim and as unwanted or you can reflect more deeply on how all of this unfolded with your participation - not to assign blame, which is never helpful, but to better understand how and why you were repeatedly drawn to this man and to this situation. Vilifying him and feeling "thrown out with the trash" is an understandable initial reaction to breaking up/divorce, but I encourage you to set your sights on the long game. If you toss him aside as being just a jerk, you will miss the necessary self-reflection that will bring you to much better new relationships in the future. I'll say again that, to my view, this is a family addiction situation, not a poly problem.

 

[Miket]

This is MikeT again.....

I just finished catching up on this entire thread.

I hope that my wife has been getting some of what she needs from the responses. She is clearly more engaged. I do feel like this has presented a fairly one-sided situation, and I'm not the type of person to want to air a bunch of dirty laundry in front of strangers on the internet.

But let me set the record straight. She's one hundred percent right that when I am sad or upset I often overindulge in alcohol. I don't get the shakes if I don't drink, I don't wake up and drink in the morning, and I can go days and days or weeks without drinking with no problems. But alcohol is something I use to cope when I'm upset. Primarily red wine, so I'm the classy kind of alcoholic...

She is right that I shared my feelings with her that my ex wife was only using me to pay the bills while giving her love and affection to someone else and that the thought of her being with other men brought up the same feelings.

She is right that at numerous different points over the past month or so, I have reached a point where I felt overwhelmed, and needed time to myself. I didn't actually think this was an unreasonable request. But the feedback here indicates that people found it manipulative. I was being very honest with her and Samantha when I said that they should both evaluate whether we are a good fit.

She is right that I got drunk at a Bonefish Grill.

All of the feelings that she has expressed here are completely valid. I realize all the ways that I have failed her and continue to fail her in trying to navigate relationships that have become extremely complicated.

Her last post presents an extremely whitewashed version of recent events in my opinion. I purposely sought out a polyamorous friendly counselor, to engage in individual therapy with in order to sort through my feelings about her dating other people. Before we even got to that point though, things between her and I became so acrimonious that we switched it to couples counseling instead. Over the last month or so she has lamented that other women do not find her attractive, or she does not know how to approach other bisexual or like-minded women. I have tried to help with this in probably misguided ways (I created a Tinder account for her so that she could see the other women swiped on her and did in fact find her attractive). But in the interest of trying to meet her halfway, we went to a swingers club where she met a woman and had sex with her there on Saturday night. I even tried to be okay with the fact that the woman's husband watched the entire time. All of this is very outside my comfort zone, but I have been trying very hard to allow my wife to explore everything about herself as much as I can emotionally handle. The information that she alludes to me sharing with the girlfriend, is the fact that we went to a sex club without telling her, that Marie engaged in unprotected sex with another person, and that it appears there was no intention to share that information with Samantha. In fact Marie is very angry with me, stating "Why should I (MikeT) have to tell Samantha what Marie and I do in our private time together?" But I feel that I breached trust with Samantha by going somewhere and engaging in an activity that I know she would not approve of. I will admit though, this whole situation seems like an extremely gray area to me. I have a responsibility for accountability to both partners. So no, I don't think that I should have to tell Samantha what Marie and I do on our date nights, but if what Marie and I are doing on our date nights violates trust that Samantha has placed in me, that leaves me in a very difficult position. Right now Samantha is very upset with me over the situation, and is not sure that she can trust me when I'm out of her sight.

But over the past week I found out that Marie met a guy at a strip club on Friday night that she exchanged phone numbers with and had been texting with. (She asked if I could be okay with her going to a strip club alone on Friday night, and even though it definitely pushed my comfort zone, I told her yes). When I asked to see the text, since this was behavior that was outside what we have agreed on so far, she refused to show them to me, and instead read me a sanitized version of them, and then admitted later that she had lied about it. Additionally, I had grabbed her phone to activate a credit card Sunday morning, because I take care of almost all of the financial and administrative parts of our lives. And you can only activate a credit card from the phone associated with the count. I was not trying to "Snoop", but I did notice that she had a strange-looking text message from a guy we both knew. When I opened it up, I found that it started with him asking for "more" videos from her. It went on to them having some sexy conversation, and then him implying that it would be best if she not tell me about the videos that she has sent him. It ends with them making plans to meet up in the next few days. Even though she has known this guy for over a year, the text only went back a few days. She had deleted an entire Year's worth of texting recently (obviously in an attempt to hide things). When I confronted her with this, she initially lied and said that she did not create videos for him and it was all a big joke. She later admitted that she had sent him sexually explicit videos. She still claimed it was all a big joke, and that the meet-up was was also a joke about getting coffee. This is what has prompted me deciding that I could not trust her and it would be best if we got a divorce. Basically, she has only admitted to the lies and inappropriate behavior to the extent that I have been able to catch and prove it. This obviously makes me believe there is an enormous number of other things that I have not caught.

I believe this catches everyone up on what has happened. I don't blame my wife, she is still figuring out her sexuality, who she is as a person, and I don't believe that she is a bad person. I realize this has been an extremely difficult situation for her and all of us. But I cannot be with someone I can't trust. I was willing to try to work through all of the other issues.

Oh, and in relation to the idea that Samantha is refusing to speak to Marie, my understanding of the situation is that Samantha feels she is owed an apology for what Marie did at the swingers club on Saturday night. Throughout all of this process we have talked amongst the three of us many times about the fact that openness and honesty is the most important part of all of this. And especially if additional sexual partners are going to be introduced into the equation. Samantha feels that Marie violated her trust with this. Marie is correct that I participated in and encouraged the situation, which is why I am also at fault and have apologized and fallen on my sword with Samantha regarding those events.

Bottom line, it's all a big f****** mess