I'm a "swinger," but I LOVE my multiple partners

[MsEmotional]

Interesting....I always thought that swinging was as varied as polyamory (in that relationships could have many forms, multiple levels of engagement, etc) but that all the “rules” that polyamorous people think of as being unethical are allowed to be negotiated in the swinger community.

The expectation is that the relationship between the married couple takes precedence and that it’s okay to take steps to preserve that relationship. So people people might make rules like, “if you have sex with him, I get to be in the room” or “We only swap with other couples, so if I’m attracted to her but my wife and her husband don’t get along, we don’t swap with them,” or “We only see each other at swinger parties and don’t talk to each other in-between get togethers.”

I don’t know...I never got the impression that swingers were immune to love, just that they viewed swinging primarily as a way to enhance their primary relationships.

 

[Magdlyn]

Interesting....I always thought that swinging was as varied as polyamory (in that relationships could have many forms, multiple levels of engagement, etc) but that all the “rules” that polyamorous people think of as being unethical are allowed to be negotiated in the swinger community.

The expectation is that the relationship between the married couple takes precedence and that it’s okay to take steps to preserve that relationship. So people people might make rules like, “if you have sex with him, I get to be in the room” or “We only swap with other couples, so if I’m attracted to her but my wife and her husband don’t get along, we don’t swap with them,” or “We only see each other at swinger parties and don’t talk to each other in-between get togethers.”

I don’t know...I never got the impression that swingers were immune to love, just that they viewed swinging primarily as a way to enhance their primary relationships.

I'd agree with you. "We don't see the other swingers except at parties," would help with boundaries. But I keep reading that many swingers see their play partners just any old time, hang out, let their kids meet, go away for weekends, and get "really close" and "have great chemistry." The line seems vague. I get the feeling that they are really in poly quads but just don't want to admit it.

I took some time today to watch some videos and start to read some articles by swingers.

I guess my interest is piqued ever since hedgehog said people who claim to be poly, but their metamours are not intimately involved with each other, are swingers, not true polyamorists. I told Pixi she was accused of being a swinger because she "swings" between our house and Maestro's house, my arms and his. She got all weirded out by that.

Also, a guy on Fetlife who is local, acted all interested in me the other day. He listed his vanilla interests, travel and so on, and mentioned he was a professional, yada yada, on his profile and in his PM to me. But when I said I appreciated his interest in "great conversations," because I need to know about someone's personality and not just their sex and kink interests, to be attracted, he turned me down, saying we weren't looking for the same thing after all, he just wanted a "regular playpartner." And then he stopped talking to me.

So I got annoyed by both of these attitudes. One person denying the depth of a poly person's feelings, the other turning me down because he thought I desired more feelings than he did.

Which leads me to getting annoyed by the conflict between recreational sex, and sex with people you like, have a crush on, are infatuated with, fond of, or love.

This article by a person who is attempting swinging hits the issue more on the nose than Karen's glib answer above, that everyone just knows where the line is and doesn't cross it. This guy and his wife are swinging, but he's afraid he'll fall in love with someone. He wants to cuddle his swing partners. He feels some hints of "romance."

https://www.lifeontheswingset.com/9374/what-is-love-considering-feelings-amongst-swingers/

 

[icesong]

OK, thanks for that info.

And define "romance." I once went to a kink club. Off in a room alone was a man Florentine flogging a woman in a fancy lingerie outfit. He was all fancy in nice slacks and a vest over a dress shirt and tie. Soft music, low lights. It looked pretty romantic to me. Even if any random person could go in and watch for a while.

I think romance depends on context to a huge degree - and we don't know that the people in that kink club weren't in a romantic relationship. I mean, I go to a kink club with Artist occasionally - well, to parties and events anyway, not a standing club arrangement - and that's clearly a strongly romantic relationship. We just go and play at that sort of thing because it's a space with furniture and where no one cares about the noise. And I think that's not uncommon in the kink scene and different than the swinger scene - hell, I know mono people that still play heavily in the kink scene, often just with each other but they like going to the clubs for the atmosphere. (On second thought maybe not so different, I know people who have gone to swinger clubs to fuck each other just for the decadent environment. Anyway.)

What makes them different is that both people independently desire romantic commitment with only one person. There isn't one person desperately trying to hold onto the reins of the other who just wants to bolt out the stable. That's what we see the fallout from here.

If you go to more private parties where there are only groups of people well acquainted with at least some of the attendees, you'll find fewer "party rules" because people are less worried about having to vigorously police boundaries around someone who has unknown desires or intentions. ... Swingers who have no desire for romantic commitment often do not need to create such boundaries because their hearts just don't work that way.

This very much matches my experiences in the community. Now, there are people that explore the swinger community without actually being swingers in the long run (either they're actually happier mono, happier poly, happier in some different sexual subculture, whatever), but that doesn't mean that there aren't happy swingers who are exactly that, without needing the rules to make sure they don't run off with someone.

I admit I don't feel satisfied by "their hearts just don't work that way." Are they broken? Is something wrong with their hormones? Are they so deeply socially brainwashed they have forever turned off their ability to deeply care about anyone other than their main partner?

That was what I firmly believed about myself for years - it was, in fact, why the way things developed with HipsterBoy was such a surprise. I mean, I'm still not someone that falls in love *often* - of the, oh, 30ish people I've fucked I've been in love with 3 of them (and am still in love with 2, so that's pretty good odds for me, yay). I've had on-and-off intimate relationships with people for years that never actually turned into consummate romantic love (see blog appearances by MartialArtist or TheBride) even if I wanted them to (DinoActivist). But then I have a pretty high bar for what I term a loving romantic relationship, for myself, and a lot of those other people were in situations where there was never an opportunity to get to know anyone well enough for intimacy beyond the physical / mutual objectification.

 

[Magdlyn]

I read another article where the swinger woman said you don't fall in love with other swingers because a swing party isn't real life. You don't know the other swingers well. You only see them in this artificial party atmosphere. You just get all dressed up for this party (I think the women especially, get all dolled up in sexy lingerie type outfits, which grosses me out for some reason), you drink, you all dance, apparently (so you are displaying your half naked body, and your moves which can mimic sex, it seems, which is so objectifying), and you talk to others just enough to feel some kind of spark. Then you go fuck.

But then I read another article where a guy said he and his wife just met another couple on a swinger website, and they only see them. No parties. And they do "soft swapping." Foreplay stuff, I guess. And they go on vanilla double dates, and they get along great and have great chemistry (which sounds like the beginnings of polyamory).

After a few dates of that, he tried to fuck the other woman and lost his erection. Was it the unaccustomed condom, or did he feel like he was cheating on his wife, finally?

 

[Magdlyn]

I think romance depends on context to a huge degree - and we don't know that the people in that kink club weren't in a romantic relationship. I mean, I go to a kink club with Artist occasionally - well, to parties and events anyway, not a standing club arrangement - and that's clearly a strongly romantic relationship.

We just go and play at that sort of thing because it's a space with furniture and where no one cares about the noise. And I think that's not uncommon in the kink scene, and different than the swinger scene - hell, I know mono people that still play heavily in the kink scene, often just with each other, but they like going to the clubs for the atmosphere.

On second thought maybe it'd not so different. I know people who have gone to swinger clubs to fuck each other just for the decadent environment.

This, I can understand. Many people are exhibitionists and voyeurs. So a kink club or a swinger party would be a turn on to them because they want to watch and be watched.

I can also see how, if you live with your kids or parents or something, and therefore have to try and have sex quietly, a club would be a convenience. I definitely see how it's nice to have furniture, bondage equipment and the like.

It's the emotional issues that concern me, though. And the... etiquette, or at least some of it. The boundaries.

That was what I firmly believed about myself for years - it was, in fact, why the way things developed with HipsterBoy was such a surprise. I mean, I'm still not someone that falls in love *often* - of the, oh, 30ish people I've fucked, I've been in love with 3 of them (and am still in love with 2...).

... I have a pretty high bar for what I term a loving romantic relationship, for myself.

That makes sense. You might see something as just sexy, which I might see as romantic.

... and a lot of those other people were in situations where there was never an opportunity to get to know anyone well enough for intimacy beyond the physical/mutual objectification.

And that makes sense too. You meet, you fuck, you part, and then months or years go by with little contact? Not even much texting?

I had a 2 1/2 year relationship with a guy that was mostly sexual. But he was smart, cute, interesting to talk to after sex, funny, well endowed, had great sex skills, and he was just somehow relaxing and calming to be around. He really got my endorphins purring in many ways. But he didn't want me involved in his life. He was much younger than me and very busy in school and working. I was fond of him, but yeah, he was more of a "play partner" than anything else.

We averaged a date about once every 3 weeks, so it always stayed casual, NSA. Maybe that was the closest I've ever gotten to "swinging."

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Is a monogamous person "broken" because they also tend not to form multiple romantic attachments at once? Why does failing to form a romantic attachment negate how much you care about someone?

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I think part of this question lies in what constitutes a relationship.

For me, feeling strongly about someone and even loving them doesn't constitute a romantic relationship. There has to be some agreement to commit to being a couple in some sense. So although you might feel very similarly about your boyfriend and the person you swing with regularly, the agreement to become a couple is what makes it different. This means trying to analyse the difference in feelings between a regular swing partner and a non-nesting poly partner is futile. What makes the swinger a swinger and not poly is the fact that they only make these commitments with one person because that's what they want and what they can handle, even if they feel similarly for several people.

Some people might say "well if they FEEL, then that makes them poly but perhaps poly saturated at 1 partner." I disagree with foisting a label on someone who has chosen an alternative. I remember having a good friend who people insisted was a partner and we were in denial just because from the outside, it looked very much like a romantic relationship. It was very oppressive to have people dismiss your claims about your life and relationships just because they didn't get it.

 

[FallenAngelina]

It was very oppressive to have people dismiss your claims about your life and relationships just because they didn't get it.

It's also discouraging of discussion to dismiss someone's efforts to explain as "glib" just because they don't get it. Mags, I don't appreciate being dismissed, especially since I've been a contributor here for so long, and since I have years of experience where you have simply read articles. You seem to form dismissive and dehumanizing judgements about "those people" (and me!) based on your limited understanding. If you want to know about how others experience their sexuality, by all means ask, but your tossing around sneering and presumptive comments just leads me to cease participating. I've written several responses to your questions and deleted them because why post if you're just going to jump all over whatever I have to say? You don't seem to have mere "curiosity" about the various ways that people experience their sexuality. If someone wrote about trans people here with the tone that you write about swingers, they'd be drummed out in two minutes, yet somehow it's OK for you to toss around opinions about the people in articles saying "That's the saddest thing of all," and grill me on my qualifications to be here. How is it OK for you to treat people who identify with swinging this way while we wouldn't tolerate it for one minute about many other sexual identities?

So NaturalHedgehog accused you of being a swinger, so what? Why go grilling me and poking fun at the people in your articles and telling me that I'm glib and don't love the right way? Broken??? More productive would be for you to explore why that comment from him pushed your button so hard. What's that all about for you?

 

[Magdlyn]

Is a monogamous person "broken" because they also tend not to form multiple romantic attachments at once?

I'm not attempting to label, per se. I'm sorry if my words came across that way. Merely labeling is glib. I am attempting to understand swinging in more depth. I am doing research.

As I said before, we get people coming here all the time, devastated, because their spouse fell in love, when it was supposed to be a swinging relationship. They "broke the rules" of not engaging in that way.

We polyamorists go by the idea that falling in love with a sex partner is entirely natural, and we know that hormones are released during sex which stimulate that bonding experience.

I guess if a swinger couple is very couple-centric, their mindset overrides their hormonal response. Yes, even when they aren't going to more anonymous parties, but are "dating another couple" (quoting an actual swinger there) that they hooked up with on a swinger website, using profiles, as if it was an actual dating site.

Why does failing to form a romantic attachment negate how much you care about someone?

I don't know. That's why I am investigating the swinger mindset.

I think part of this question lies in what constitutes a relationship.

For me, feeling strongly about someone, and even loving them, doesn't constitute a romantic relationship. There has to be some agreement to commit to being a couple in some sense. So although you might feel very similarly about your boyfriend and the person you swing with regularly, the agreement to become a couple is what makes it different.

Wow. OK. I acknowledge this understanding. Romance to you, equals committed coupledom.

That might be part of my confusion. I have never thought of romance as an agreement for "death to us part," or whatever you mean by commitment.

Romance, to me, is atmosphere, as I indicated above.

This means trying to analyse the difference in feelings between a regular swing partner and a non-nesting poly partner is futile. What makes the swinger a swinger, and not poly, is the fact that they only make these commitments with one person, because that's what they want and what they can handle, even if they feel similarly for several people.

And so, when they do develop feelings, which are too urgent to be ignored, they freak out and don't know what to do. I know their agreement is, "our marriage comes first." That is supposed to be a guideline on what to do if feelings become too intense. Swingers are supposed to break it off with another partner they have fallen in love with, or it's considered cheating on their spouse.

This is why I sometimes question the ethics, and the "naturalness," so to speak, of swinging. You go in knowing you may well break someone's heart, if you enjoy them "too much." (Or maybe you don't go in knowing that, and so are even more gobsmacked when you "catch the feels.")

Going against all your desires, you must leave a person you care about. This could have a lifelong impact, this heartbreaking issue. I could see it making a person decide to stop swinging altogether. Or to leave their spouse to be with the forbidden person. Or just to plunge into depression. Etc.

It just seems to me like swingers are playing with fire. This is just my opinion, though, of course. I'm sure some people make it through these kinds of issues and never let it get to this point, or if they do, they make adjustments and continue swinging.

Some people might say, "Well, if they FEEL, then that makes them poly, but perhaps poly saturated at 1 partner." I disagree with foisting a label on someone who has chosen an alternative. I remember having a good friend who people insisted was a partner, and we were in denial, just because from the outside, it looked very much like a romantic relationship. It was very oppressive to have people dismiss your claims about your life and relationships just because they didn't get it.

I am not really attempting to label people as otherwise than they identify. The aim of this thread, talking to you people who have swung, or hung out with swingers, and my research around the net, is to understand HOW people swing, mistakes they make, roadblocks or speedbumps they hit. I am trying to become a better advisor here, since we do get a lot of (ex) swingers coming here who are extremely upset, and depressed, and have had their lives thrown into a tailspin, when their swinging causes "too many feelings" to happen.

 

[Magdlyn]

It's also discouraging of discussion to dismiss someone's efforts to explain as "glib" just because they don't get it. Mags, I don't appreciate being dismissed, especially since I've been a contributor here for so long, and since I have years of experience where you have simply read articles. You seem to form dismissive and dehumanizing judgements about "those people" (and me!) based on your limited understanding. If you want to know about how others experience their sexuality, by all means ask, but your tossing around sneering and presumptive comments just leads me to cease participating. I've written several responses to your questions and deleted them because why post if you're just going to jump all over whatever I have to say? You don't seem to have mere "curiosity" about the various ways that people experience their sexuality. If someone wrote about trans people here with the tone that you write about swingers, they'd be drummed out in two minutes, yet somehow it's OK for you to toss around opinions about the people in articles saying "That's the saddest thing of all," and grill me on my qualifications to be here. How is it OK for you to treat people who identify with swinging this way while we wouldn't tolerate it for one minute about many other sexual identities?

So NaturalHedgehog accused you of being a swinger, so what? Why go grilling me and poking fun at the people in your articles and telling me that I'm glib and don't love the right way? Broken??? More productive would be for you to explore why that comment from him pushed your button so hard. What's that all about for you?

Karen, I see I have hurt you and you're upset. I apologize. I will address your concerns a bit later when I can take a break at work.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

See italics

ETA. Fuck I'll edit thislater

Eta2: edited

As I said before, we get people coming here all the time, devastated, because their spouse fell in love, when it was supposed to be a swinging relationship. They "broke the rules" of not engaging in that way

any relationship where all parties are not on the same page will result in conflict[/I]

We polyamorists go by the idea that falling in love with a sex partner is entirely natural, and we know that hormones are released during sex which stimulate that bonding experience.

It might not be natural for everyone

I guess if a swinger couple is very couple-centric, their mindset overrides their hormonal response. Yes, even when they aren't going to more anonymous parties, but are "dating another couple" (quoting an actual swinger there) that they hooked up with on a swinger website, using profiles, as if it was an actual dating site.

maybe, or maybe the thought of having 2 "full partners" is just offputting



Wow. OK. I acknowledge this understanding. Romance to you, equals committed coupledom.

No it is just that when someone feels romantic about someone else, their desire and expectation for full partnership often follows.

That might be part of my confusion. I have never thought of romance as an agreement for "death to us part," or whatever you mean by commitment.

full partnership is a better term[/I]


Romance, to me, is atmosphere, as I indicated above.

yes but you're often unsatisfied with romantic sessions and eagerly want to seek a regular partner. To me, you have those expectations and desires that could be problematic for someone who only wants "one sweetie" even if they don't mind getting "sweet" with others on occasion

And so, when they do develop feelings, which are too urgent to be ignored, they freak out and don't know what to do. I know their agreement is, "our marriage comes first." That is supposed to be a guideline on what to do if feelings become too intense. Swingers are supposed to break it off with another partner they have fallen in love with, or it's considered cheating on their spouse.

The long term swingers I know dont allow any feelings they do have to become an obstacle because they don't really want multiple full partnerships and are happy with expressing their feelings through the connections they do have. They enjoy having the feelings and expressing them without the added load of full partnership

This is why I sometimes question the ethics, and the "naturalness," so to speak, of swinging. You go in knowing you may well break someone's heart, if you enjoy them "too much." (Or maybe you don't go in knowing that, and so are even more gobsmacked when you "catch the feels.")

some people are. But some people swing because they want affection and that's a bad move

Going against all your desires, you must leave a person you care about. This could have a lifelong impact, this heartbreaking issue. I could see it making a person decide to stop swinging altogether. Or to leave their spouse to be with the forbidden person. Or just to plunge into depression. Etc.

They usually desire the life with their spouse more. That's why they dont identify as poly

It just seems to me like swingers are playing with fire. This is just my opinion, though, of course. I'm sure some people make it through these kinds of issues and never let it get to this point, or if they do, they make adjustments and continue swinging.

exactly.



I am not really attempting to label people as otherwise than they identify. The aim of this thread, talking to you people who have swung, or hung out with swingers, and my research around the net, is to understand HOW people swing, mistakes they make, roadblocks or speedbumps they hit. I am trying to become a better advisor here, since we do get a lot of (ex) swingers coming here who are extremely upset, and depressed, and have had their lives thrown into a tailspin, when their swinging causes "too many feelings" to happen.

its not any different to any other version of you want these rules and I want those/no rules. I don't see the rules a swinger might have any different to anyone who only wants to date casually.

 

[ref2018]

Swingers and poly people are the same in the sense that most of them don't post online about their personal lives, and the ones who do are usually in some sort of crisis. Most swingers and most poly people just do their thing, and those are the couples that are "dating" and having picnics with each other's kids. You won't see those folks here *or* on reddit.

If you want a constant smorgasbord of swinger drama, go to old.reddit.com/r/swingers. They also have the same fascination with poly people (although there is a fair amount of overlap), like OMG *how* can they *do* that?

But the fact is, you should trust what you see in real life over what you see on social media as the "truth", and then dish out free internet advice according to your *own* truth. I mean, who really gives a crap if some failed swingers figure out what to do with themselves next? #FirstWorldProblems

 

[Magdlyn]

Karen, I misused the word "glib." I don't dismiss your words, I just found them to lack the detail I was seeking.

I hung with a swinging crowd during the years I was separating from my marriage, and found this to be true. There was camaraderie among them, lots of vanilla hanging out, friendship, kissing during sex, fluid (not swapping) change of sex partners, but not one instance of someone falling for another partner. I experienced this, as well.

You "hung out with swingers." Was this only in vanilla space, or were you involved in actually, sexually, swinging?

This fluid group (and I) had no need for most of those stereotypical swinger rules, because there is just something in us that has no interest or ability to fall in love with multiple people.

"Just something in us," is what I found shallow. One of the things I am interested in exploring is what exactly this "something," or lack thereof, is.

I hung with this group for several years...

I'm sorry, but this just seems coy. Did you swing for several years? And how? As a single woman, a unicorn, helping people do threesomes? This is my assumption, since you don't mention doing it with a partner as a couple unit.

My thought, as a monogamish person, is that if my partner is going to fall in love with someone else, he going to fall in love with someone else. Taking steps to prevent this defeats the whole purpose of love. Love cannot flourish without freedom of choice... sex really has no magical power that human connection doesn't already carry. That's how we experience it.

"We," meaning you and your mono partner now, you and your specific swinger group, or both?

I've written about this a few times here, so this was no "reveal," but I am monogamish, yes, not polyamorous. I was indeed involved in a polyamorous relationship a few years back and have written about that and referenced that quite a few times here.

You don't maintain a journal, so my understanding of your relationship history is spotty. I didn't make a point of keeping your switching loyalties, friends and lovers all in a firm timeline. You have scattered that information in various threads where you have advise others. I don't even remember you ever asking for advice yourself on this or that configuration (the swingers, the threesome, the mono relationship.) But maybe you did and I forgot or didn't see it.

I hang around poly and swingery [sic] people, yes. When I was in a poly relationship, my BF was married, and I had a really nice relationship with his wife. We are all three still quite close, in fact.

So, you were a unicorn when swinging and then when you were in a polyamorous relationship. He was your bf, but she wasn't your gf. She was just your bf's wife, your playpartner? You weren't in love with her?

If you'd like to help (although you probably don't), you could explain why you stopped swinging, why you stopped participating in a polyamorous triad as a unicorn, and why you're now monogamous. What was unsatisfactory about the previous relationships? Were there issues for you with swinging as a single woman (no love allowed, MF-focus, no male gay stuff, couple-centrism)? Issues with the FMF poly triad (feeling like you were not valued enough, had no safe future, lack of status, etc.)?

 

[Vicki82]

I'm picturing crossover into the kink community, where I think I can see some relevant things.

Some people do kink play and it's just for the love of the kink. Doesn't matter who they're doing it with, they just want to do the thing. For some people, kink is an expression of their love. They can be doing exactly the same thing, and it means one thing to group A and a totally different thing to group B.

I think sex can be similar. I have quite a few people that I'm happy to have sex with just as friends, or I don't mind going to the swing club and having sex with strangers. It's just a different energy and a different type of environment. I can hang out with my friends and have sex with them and do all the kinds of things I do with partners, but there's just not that romantic energy there. I don't think that sex has to be a thing that *develops* romantic feelings. I think that when the starts of those feelings are already there, that the sex helps build them, if that makes sense. But sex isn't just going to make people who aren't emotionally attracted to each other at all fall in love, I think. I think it merely enhances intimacy that is already budding on its own.

I don't think anything is missing or different from people who just like sex as sports fucking or FWB. Sex is fun and it feels good and it can just be casual. It doesn't have to evoke romance- I'd think of that more as mononormative programming or sex shaming.

I think of poly as more of a spectrum. I do believe there are people, possibly the serial monogamists, who literally can't be in love with more than one person at a time. And then there's us at the other end. But people will be at various points on the axis and that's just as okay as being on the sexuality axis of homosexual to heterosexual.

Most swingers are doing this from the core of it being a marital activity, whether or not they swing only together or mix at parties or clubs. It's the same in the hotwife community, although there you see WAY more control and rules than you do normally in swinging.

I just think that the people who come here heartbroken were further one way on that axis of swinging -> poly than their partners were, and that's the unfortunate issue that you simply won't know unless you hit that point. Loads of people swing for years without developing romantic feelings. But it won't work that way for everyone.

 

[FallenAngelina]

You "hung out with swingers." Was this only in vanilla space, or were you involved in actually, sexually, swinging?

I was involved in actually, sexually, swinging.

Did you swing for several years? And how? As a single woman, a unicorn, helping people do threesomes? This is my assumption, since you don't mention doing it with a partner as a couple unit.

I swung for several years while I was leaving my marriage and dating. The swingers I know don't require couples, nor adhere to any rules about singles, so there's fluid mixing among the couples, single men, single women. It's also not uncommon for couple partners to date or attend sex parties solo. Most of the stereotypical swinging scenarios and rules that you've described are not my experience at all. I am not a shallow person and I wouldn't describe anyone else I know in the scene this way, but there has truly been very little drama, especially considering that sex is involved. It's a loving, mature, open minded group of sex enthusiasts, what can I say?

I don't even remember you ever asking for advice yourself on this or that configuration

I haven't asked for advice, but I do try to contain my comments to situations in which I have a healthy dose of real life experience. For instance, people frequently bring up abandonment issues here and I have done decades of fruitful work around that, all stemming from my adoption and additional early childhood loss trauma. I have extensive experience and knowledge of alcoholism and general codependency, often the root of many issues brought to this forum. So I'll address those. I've experienced being a "secondary" in a poly relationship, so I'll comment where I think it's helpful.

So, you were a unicorn when swinging and then when you were in a polyamorous relationship. He was your bf, but she wasn't your gf. She was just your bf's wife, your playpartner? You weren't in love with her?

I suppose you could have called me a unicorn while swinging, but I also introduced my poly BF to that community and he loved the vibe. We participated as a couple for awhile and now that I'm "retired," he participates as a male unicorn of sorts. The group I hung with is most welcoming of the single men who jell with the group. My metamor was my metamor - no sex between us. She isn't into swinging, so her husband does that on his own now.

If you'd like to help (although you probably don't), you could explain why you stopped swinging, why you stopped participating in a polyamorous triad as a unicorn, and why you're now monogamous. What was unsatisfactory about the previous relationships? Were there issues for you with swinging as a single woman (no love allowed, MF-focus, no male gay stuff, couple-centrism)? Issues with the FMF poly triad (feeling like you were not valued enough, had no safe future, lack of status, etc.)?

I stopped swinging because I was done. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I ended my poly relationship because my present BF demonstrated serious intent to me and it became obvious that my heart just cannot hold two people. I romantically loved my poly BF while we were together. I romantically love my mono-ish BF now. It was terrible stressful for me to handle two men that way (I tried.) I was fine being the secondary and "sharing" the guy, but holding two men in my heart made my head explode.

Were there issues for you with swinging as a single woman (no love allowed, MF-focus, no male gay stuff, couple-centrism)? Issues with the FMF poly triad (feeling like you were not valued enough, had no safe future, lack of status, etc.)?

The group I sexed with (and still talk with) does include a good number of men open to M-M sex, so that is on the table at the parties. Couple centrism isn't a toxic element - the partners roam freely and I never experienced any possessive BS or any tagalong issues. This is a long term, personally "vetted", well established, older skewing crowd that meets up in private homes, so maybe that has something to do with the more laid back vibe. There are ~40 people actively involved. It's not a club scene group. I dunno, i've never been to a swinger club and I don't know what it's like.

My poly relationship was one of the most positive experiences I've had. I felt tremendously valued by both my BF and his wife (she and I were never sexually involved.) She has a GF, he had me. It was a lovely situation. I don't mean to be all Pollyanna and coy about it, but we truly were happy and I feel that we could have sustained that for many more years. But my present BF presented himself and my heart just cannot hold two.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Karen, I see I have hurt you and you're upset. I apologize.

Thank you - I appreciate that.

 

[Magdlyn]

I am going to address some of this just to clear up my motivations and understandings, even though it was written from an emotionally flooded place.

It's also discouraging of discussion to dismiss someone's efforts to explain as "glib" just because they don't get it.

I think I covered this part already.

You seem to form dismissive and dehumanizing judgments about "those people" (and me!) based on your limited understanding. If you want to know about how others experience their sexuality, by all means ask, but your tossing around sneering and presumptive comments just leads me to cease participating. I've written several responses to your questions and deleted them because why post if you're just going to jump all over whatever I have to say?

"Dismissive, judgmental, sneering, presumptive, jump all over."

I don't read where I actually sneered or jumped all over. I do feel I have "othered" swingers because their preferences are indeed alien to my own.

I also have pre-judged swingers because I know they were very anti-gay male interactions, but maybe I am behind the times, and there's all kinds of guy on guy action in swing clubs and in "dating" between swinging couples and between swinger singles. So that's great, if true. Maybe it's perfectly fine to be a bi or gay male swinger now.

You don't seem to have mere "curiosity" about the various ways that people experience their sexuality. If someone wrote about trans people here with the tone that you write about swingers, they'd be drummed out in two minutes, yet somehow it's OK for you to toss around opinions about the people in articles saying "That's the saddest thing of all..."

People don't choose to be transgender (like Pixi) or gender non binary (like me), or have anomalies in their bone structure (like Pixi and me). People do choose to be couple-centric, homophobic and to swing and to break lover's hearts if they love them "too much." I think that is one big difference.

And I read several actual swingers say that no woman should fuck a guy she isn't attracted to, just to enable her husband to fuck that guy's wife. It even has a name, "taking one for the team." I do think it's extremely sad and patriarchal. I am wary of how swinging can support the patriarchy and male privilege. I am wary of how it can seem to objectify women. In fact, it seems it can often objectify all people, by promoting people as bodies to be used for sex, and not fully human. Maybe not in your group, but certainly groups do vary in their "wokeness."

How is it OK for you to treat people who identify with swinging this way while we wouldn't tolerate it for one minute about many other sexual identities?

Sexual identity and sexual preference aren't choices. That seems simple enough.

I've had lots of couples approach me on okc and Fetlife wanting me to be their unicorn so they can "spice up their marriage," with me as the spice. Ugh. I am no couple's spice. That's just gross to me.

NaturalHedgehog accused you of being a swinger, so what? Why go grilling me and poking fun at the people in your articles and telling me that I'm glib and don't love the right way? Broken??? More productive would be for you to explore why that comment from him pushed your button so hard. What's that all about for you?

I think it's clear I didn't start this thread just because "NaturalHedgehog" (ha) accused people like Pixi and me of not being "twue poly." It did motivate me to finally actually start a thread about swingers. But my main curiosity stems from swinging sharing the ethical non monogamy umbrella with me.

As I've said, people come to our wonderful board with all kinds of ethical or not ethical non-mono questions that really don't relate directly to polyamory. Cheaters come here, or those that are being cheated on. Swingers come here. Hookup artists come here. People come here with trollish stories about harems, and, most recently, telling us about sketchy "sexy tourists" (randoms coming to their house for anonymous sex) being around their young teenagers, and asking if that's OK.

I had some misperceptions about swinging, so I thought I'd talk about it and learn something. I admit I feel viscerally grossed out by very casual sex, by hooking up with complete strangers, with swinging and objectifying people. I am sapiosexual and loving and respectful. I am not a voyeur or an exhibitionist, so being in a roomful of writhing naked bodies does nothing for me.

I've never been to a swinger club or party, but I've been to kink cons and a kink club. I was invited into a hotel room at a kink con, where spanking was going on. Eventually I asked to try their spanking bench. It was very comfortable and my 2 partners flogged me on it. I didn't care that a half dozen people were watching. I wasn't embarrassed by that, and I wasn't turned on or off. I basically tuned them out and just felt the sensations coming from 2 people I cared about.

At the kink club, I just felt neutral or a bit sad when I watched others doing various kink or sex things. And when my bf and I hung out, talked to a few people, and finally did some kinky stuff, I felt kind of awkward and wasn't turned on at all. I asked to be taken home.

 

[hedgehog]

No, this title doesn't pertain to me.

But I was reading an old thread started by a banned member, Polynatural, who said that they had interviewed multiple people who IDed as swingers, but their relationships involved feelings of strong fondness, or even love, for their multiple partners, with whom they had ongoing relationships.

Here is that thread.
http://polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100201.

After looking through dozens of websites on swinging, the range of emotions between swingers ranges from superficial to deeply involved. The supposed difference between polyamory and swinging is that partners are more than superficially involved in all cases, and in traditional polyamory are interrelated, but those lines appear to be getting more and more fuzzy all the time. Consequently it looks to me like swinging gets a bad rap and should not necessarily be considered as any less meaningful than any other type of relationship. In other words I don't see that calling someone a swinger instead of poly makes them less or more of a person or that their relationships aren't just as valid as anyone else's.

 

[Vicki82]

After looking through dozens of websites on swinging, the range of emotions between swingers ranges from superficial to deeply involved. The supposed difference between polyamory and swinging is that partners are more than superficially involved in all cases, and in traditional polyamory are interrelated, but those lines appear to be getting more and more fuzzy all the time. Consequently it looks to me like swinging gets a bad rap and should not necessarily be considered as any less meaningful than any other type of relationship. In other words I don't see that calling someone a swinger instead of poly makes them less or more of a person or that their relationships aren't just as valid as anyone else's.

I dunno. Swinging is on that same plane as hotwifing, and I can tell you that a lot of people in that community literally think of someone as a walking set of genitals. I know there are a lot of swingers like that too. I think the ones having more of a relationship may be the exception rather than the rule. Have you been to a swingers' club lately??? They can be pretty gross. And this is from someone who likes going.

 

[Magdlyn]

I dunno. Swinging is on that same plane as hotwifing, and I can tell you that a lot of people in that community literally think of someone as a walking set of genitals. I know there are a lot of swingers like that too. I think the ones having more of a relationship may be the exception rather than the rule. Have you been to a swingers' club lately??? They can be pretty gross. And this is from someone who likes going.

Vicki, I'd love to hear more if you would share. I am concerned about the objectification, and "grossness."