In Mourning

[CosmoKitty]

Heya everyone, I wasn't sure if this is the right place to post this or not. I figure, it's a life story so why not?

Part of the reason why I came here was to find support from other humans who understand the complexities of poly relationships, because the only people I had near me are no longer here or rather they dumped me...possibly temporarily but also possibly not. I'll refer to the people below as A and B.

I became involved with A who was in a long-term marriage but freshly open because he felt he needed to have more experiences for his growth. They had strict rules, I had the best cuddle companion off and on for 4 years - all done out of love and for healing and always by the rules. She didn't want to know about anyone he met with, she thought it would protect her. She took it a step further and opened their marriage up even more. A and I started having 'sessions' together which of course deepened our bond and we were happy, even she was more happy. I became close with A and his family and I loved it, I imagined us all being together as a tribe.

Things got rocky for them however, they had some fights and it seems one of the issues could have been he was experiencing NRE. Our intention together was always to help ourselves with our own healing and to help aid in his marriage so of course when it seemed the marriage was becoming compromised we had to take some space. She decided she wanted to know everything, so he told her and it was scary for both of us because we wanted to remain close. I was mostly ok with giving them space because I understood that their marriage is very important and my being there complicated things, but also I was getting close to B, who I was with before I became intimate with A.

I feel like my being with B kept me from the mourning process of being several months now without A. B kept me quite busy, all my free time for the last several months has pretty much gone to him and I've finally started to take my time back. In other posts I've mentioned how because I'm empathic/introverted it is necessary for me to have space to myself to feel my identity without others influence. Since I've taken the time to myself I have noticed myself feeling a Lot better, remembering who I am but also mourning the loss of A. My heart hurts and I can't tell anyone. My heart hurts and I can't talk to Him.

I feel like, if I wasn't being distracted with NRE? because of B I would have supported A better. I feel like maybe I let it go too easily, like I've had a relationship with him for years and suddenly I just let myself get cut out? I feel like I should be involved in more conversations with them about everything. Although I do have to give stars to his wife for meeting up with us all together a couple times after she found out it was me. They say someday maybe we can meet up again. That we could be friends but not get back into the poly relationship, but I am not to contact them in the mean time and it hurts. I feel like they've put honest effort into working through their stuff and to later involve me rather than her just hating me like some people might. But at the same time I feel like it's not fair because I miss them and I want to help but I can't. I love Them...he loves me and she liked me, now they're gone.

Am I right in questioning how they are doing things? I feel like they are working together as they should, but cutting me out is like running away from the problem to save themselves from working through more negative emotions right away. In my experience, running away from the issue does Not work. I don't know how fair it is for me however, to think we should all be going to a counselor together, not just them.

I'm not sure what to expect in posting this. I needed to get it out somewhere. I needed to feel like others maybe understand what I'm going through. I'm of course also open to honesty from you, maybe I am not being fair or maybe things could be worked through better. I don't know...what do you think?

Thanks for being there
<3 CK

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you are mourning the loss of being involved in a "V" with A and his wife. Breaking up is never fun. I hope you feel a bit better for airing out.

It's ok to be sad. You could call it a learning experience and going forward in future, not put your own self care on the back burner. I think that was the first mistake. I think you could not get involved with people who aren't doing poly the way you want to be doing it and who are not "joyous yes!" about it. That was the second mistake.

You sound like you wanted kitchen table poly model, a tribe. Where A wanted a very separate V, DADT, and a primary-secondary thing. It doesn't sound like A was a "joyous yes!" willing kind of participant. Hinge sounds like he wanted whatever he could get A to go along with. Just not compatible for many reasons. But you got involved with these people anyway.

It sounds like you so wanted to be in a poly thing, any poly thing, you didn't stop to check if it was actually a COMPATIBLE poly thing to how you want to be "doing poly." You chose to spend 4 years in a model that wasn't really the model you wanted to practice because you got attached to these people.

I feel like, if I wasn't being distracted with NRE? because of B I would have supported A better

Supported her better in what? Her emotional management is her job to be doing. Not yours. You can be sympathetic or empathetic toward A while still expecting A to fix her own stuff. If A is doing poly when she doesn't really want to be doing it? She could stop.

Each person could hold their own baggage.

I think you could question agreements before signing up to follow them. Figure out how to support YOU better. Do your own jobs instead of doing other people's jobs for them.

Am I right in questioning how they are doing things? I feel like they are working together as they should, but cutting me out is like running away from the problem to save themselves from working through more negative emotions right away. In my experience, running away from the issue does Not work. I don't know how fair it is for me however, to think we should all be going to a counselor together, not just them.

What stops you from going to your own counselor?

Is wanting to stay latched on to them you running away from facing your healing on your own?

If getting involved with people who do not poly how you want to be doing poly doesn't serve you well? You could stop jumping in feet first and spend more time vetting potentials. Take more time to assess compatibility so it spares you grief later.

They've chosen to stop doing poly to get their marriage together. You seem to agree that's best for their marriage. Why would you insert yourself into their marriage or post-V healing process? The health of their marriage is not your responsibility. Give them their space to do their thing. It is not your job to fix everything for everyone else.

Are you trying to save yourself from working through the more negative emotions of developing a more solid sense of self and forming better boundaries with people?

You call it "empath" but to me is sounds "too selfless." It's ok to be sensitive and be able to intuit how other people are feeling. It is ok to express sympathy, empathy, and concern for them when they are not doing well.

It is NOT ok to take all their stuff on board for yourself to the point where you neglect your own self care. You don't have to be "the fixer" for everyone. It's not your job and it is poor personal boundaries. They need space to solve their problems on their own.

It's like you make it be all themthemthem and neglect your own self care in the hope that they will return the favor and go youyouyou. Kinda codependent sounding.

I've finally started to take my time back. In other posts I've mentioned how because I'm empathic/introverted it is necessary for me to have space to myself to feel my identity without others influence. Since I've taken the time to myself I have noticed myself feeling a Lot better, remembering who I am

This is stuff you could have been doing FIRST. So you can maintain your perspective and sense of self when you date people and not subsume yourself to the relationship. Instead, you put other people first, appropriate or not. And you neglect your own self care.

I might be wrong, but I think you could grieve, and go see a counselor on your own so you can sort out your own post-V healing. Work on developing a better sense of self and develop better personal boundaries. You sound like you get too enmeshed with other people. Being an empathetic person doesn't mean throwing your own self under the bus.

If your empathy and compassion does not include yourself? It is incomplete.

Again, I'm sorry you are sad post-break up. That's not fun stuff to feel.

Galagirl

 

[CosmoKitty]

I think you could not get involved with people who aren't doing poly the way you want to be doing it and who are not "joyous yes!" about it.

The thing is, he was the one that was having the joyous yes! And she thought that things would be ok with her not knowing until they started having some issues. He's actually going through the same issue that caused me to leave my marriage, because people like he and I need more freedom. He would have loved for us all to be living together as a family too but her, not so much - which I understand that's for them to work out.

It sounds like you so wanted to be in a poly thing, any poly thing, you didn't stop to check if it was actually a COMPATIBLE poly thing to how you want to be "doing poly." You chose to spend 4 years in a model that wasn't really the model you wanted to practice because you got attached to these people.

The 4 years we were together was just as cuddle buddies and we were fine with those arrangements, no harm came from that. But things evolved, as life often does. He and I are very compatible and since his wife gave him permission to do more things, it was only natural for us to test out taking it a step further. The rules were fine until she changed her mind on what she could handle.

Supported her better in what? Her emotional management is her job to be doing. Not yours. You can be sympathetic or empathetic toward A while still expecting A to fix her own stuff. If A is doing poly when she doesn't really want to be doing it? She could stop.

What stops you from going to your own counselor?
They've chosen to stop doing poly to get their marriage together that is (him + her) stuff. You seem to agree that's best for their marriage. Why would you insert yourself into their marriage or post-V healing process?

The people are getting kind of confused here, that's ok, it is weird talking about people as A's and B's The thing is, once she decided she couldn't handle it like she thought because they ran into some rough spots I got cut out. I feel like since we were all so close as friends and my being more intimate with A that it seems like couples counseling is definitely good for them but I find myself wondering why am I not being included in working out things With them. I see my own counselor, that's a non-issue. It's just in my world I'm use to communicating things out and not being left out of the discussion. Does that make sense?

You call it "empath" but to me is sounds "too selfless." It's ok to be sensitive and be able to intuit how other people are feeling. It is NOT ok to take all their stuff on board for yourself to the point where you neglect your own self care. You don't have to be "the fixer" for everyone. It's not your job and it is poor personal boundaries. Like you make it be all themthemthem and neglect your own self care in the hope that they will return the favor and go youyouyou. Kinda codependent sounding.

I do have a tendency to sacrifice a lot for others, which is why I'm questioning some of the ways I've been dealing with things. Like instead of saying, "Ok I'll just step down and keep my emotions to myself" being more like, "Hey, I have emotions and deserve to be included too." I get that their marriage comes first, I don't question that. But the only way to really work through things so that we are all learning from what happened and moving on is by communicating with each other and supporting each other through the process.

I am actually fine with backing down as the gf. The loss for me is more the feeling of having lost my family, I liked simply being close to them and that's why I wish we could all work it out.

Thanks for your message.

 

[GalaGirl]

I do have a tendency to sacrifice a lot for others, which is why I'm questioning some of the ways I've been dealing with things. Like instead of saying, "Ok I'll just step down and keep my emotions to myself" being more like, "Hey, I have emotions and deserve to be included too."

Sounds like you regret not being more assertive and speaking up for yourself and asking to be included in decisions that affect you.

That's what I mean about you being too selfless.

There's a continuum of (selfish -- self full --- and selfless.)

The titled unbalanced ends of the see-saw are the end points.

• Selfish - memememe. All about me. Forget/neglect everyone else needs.
  
• Selfless -- themthemthem. All about them. Forget/neglect my own needs.

The more balanced place in the middle is self full.

• Self full - I meet my own needs first so I'm not neglected, burning out or spread too thin. Then I can gift my help to others with their reasonable and rational requests from a full tank of gas.

If everyone did that, then all people would be seen to. It is possible to care about others and contribute to their well being without it being "sacrifice" like it comes out of your own hide. YKWIM? Find a better balance.

Did you do your self care? No. If you are just now finally making the down time for yourself, it sounds like you weren't taking care of you along the way. You could learn to do that.

It's just in my world I'm use to communicating things out and not being left out of the discussion.

Did you speak up and communicate and ask to be included how you are used to? No. You were silent. That what I meant before about you kinda "trading."

You made it be themthemthem with the expectation that they would go youyouyou in exchange. They would mind reader you or automatically include you in the discussion. Well...You weren't holding the "you bag" and it turns out they weren't either. Plop. Fell on the floor. Ow.

Works easier if everyone holds their own bag. He holds his, A holds hers, you hold yours. If sometimes people ask you to help them carry a handle of their bag to help them up the stairs, alright. You can choose to help them if it is a reasonable request. But you don't drop your own bag on the floor. And you don't carry their bag for them forever.

If they are carrying baggage that is too hard for them to carry? Then could unpack some stuff and get rid of it. Stop carrying it around.

But things evolved, as life often does. He and I are very compatible and since his wife gave him permission to do more things, it was only natural for us to test out taking it a step further. The rules were fine until she changed her mind on what she could handle

Yup. That happens. You outgrew the model.

It's the the con to "primary-secondary" model. In this article Labriola writes it as...

a major drawback of this model is that outside relationships are not so simple or easy to predict or control. Having a sexual relationship with someone else often leads to becoming emotionally involved and even falling in love, frequently causing a crisis in the primary relationship and even divorce. Initiating a sexual relationship is opening a door to many possibilities, and often secondary relationships grow into something else which does not fit neatly into the confines of this model. Many people who become “secondary” lovers become angry at being subjugated to the couple, and demand equality or end the relationship. For this model to be successful, couples must be very convinced that their relationship is strong enough to weather these ups and downs. Conversely, some couples who start with this model decide eventually to shift to some form of the Multiple Primary Partners model to allow secondary relationships to become equal to the primary couple relationship.

Maybe next time you could talk that out when vetting potentials. "If agreements need to change or the model needs to change, how to you see us working that out?"

Because if the plan is to cut people out and you don't like that? Maybe you don't want participate there. You prefer to be included and work things out. Even if the only solution is to part ways. But at least you are included in the conversation.

I get that their marriage comes first, I don't question that. But the only way to really work through things so that we are all learning from what happened and moving on is by communicating with each other and supporting each other through the process.

Actually that isn't the only way. It might be your preferred way. But it is possible for them to cut you out and move on without you. Do their learning without you in the picture. It is also possible for them to continue to break up further into everyone single. Do their learning by themselves. This is still unfolding.

Whatever it is they are doing over there? I think you could focus on taking care of you over here.

I think you could learn from this experience. Next time talk about how you prefer to do conflict resolution or how to end things if things have to end. Perhaps that could make future break ups (if they have to happen) less hard for you. You are responsible for your own emergency preparedness.

I'm not trying to bring you down here or add to your burdens. Just that those are the places I think you could improve for next time.

The loss for me is more the feeling of having lost my family, I liked simply being close to them and that's why I wish we could all work it out.

I see you are sad. And I'm sorry for your loss.

They say someday maybe we can meet up again. That we could be friends but not get back into the poly relationship, but I am not to contact them in the mean time and it hurts.

They sound willing to still be part of your "friend family" later on. This is still fresh and still unfolding. Be patient.

But at the same time, if this is painful and you are realizing that participating in "primary-secondary" is not your cup of tea because it can end up at this place when the model gets outgrown? Don't do that model any more going forward.

Galagirl

 

[Shaya]

Hi there CosmoKitty,

What a difficult time this is for you. You come across as really respectful of a primary's relationship with each other and content to just be secondary in all respects. Yet, I hear that the sacrifice you make for them can hurt and you want to help them heal by being involved in the process. Simultaneously, I hear you saying that you respect their wish to cut you out and to heal on their own.

How awful for you. And lonely too, I would imagine, though I actually have no experience in this so maybe I'm just projecting how I would feel onto you and maybe you're actually doing better than I would be.

I wonder if the book "wired for love" would be something you may find interesting. Here's someone's brief take on it. I've read most of the book. It teaches us about ourselves and of our approaches to love. In particular, it talks a fair bit about people who are often very generous to others and what events in our childhood led us to be like that. With this insight, maybe you may find yourself changing slightly so that you could act in a manner that's both generous to others and also kind on yourself. You shouldn't have to hurt the way you're hurting just because of your generosity.

Good luck, CosmoKitty. I hope you find new partners who can appreciate you for the kind empathic soul you are.

Warm thoughts,
Shaya.

 

[Hannahfluke]

In contrast to Shaya, I bought "Wired for love" when he brought it up before, because I do find the whole idea of attachment theory as it relates to adult relationships interesting, however, I was not able to make it past the first chapter. It is very monogamously inclined, which I knew before buying it and I've read other monogamously inclined books and taken what I needed and ignored what didn’t apply, so I thought I could do that with this one. However, reading it exasperated the feelings of sadness I have that my primary relationship has slowly transitioned to me being secondary through my husband's choices and actions, so I couldn't finish even part of the book.

That said, I found a reference to another book on adult attachment in something I was reading by the authors of "More than Two" and I'm thoroughly enjoying that one, named Attached, so far (I'm on chapter 9). It focuses more on attachment theory and how it affects relationships, as opposed to "Wired for Love," which focuses on the idea that you need to have a strong monogamous relationship and how to apply attachment theory to protect that at all costs (the first chapter is about creating a couple bubble, which will protect your relationship and should be the most important single thing you do). It's a subtle distinction but one that makes a huge difference for me, in terms of my emotional response to the books and ability to read them. Just thought I'd share, since you state that you are polyamorous and that monogamy is something that you don't want.

 

[Rockit49]

Hi kitty

Tough situation.... Don't beat yourself up to much
You're allowed to state your desires too! That's the point
Good luck

 

[CosmoKitty]

Shaya, thanks for your post. It was a really difficult time, I'm actually feeling lots better. I feel more and more that I can still love them and though I can't be with them I can at least send love their way when I think of them or see them. I've been having more experiences that are helping me to see all the ways I can show love to others without being intimate with them - it's an interesting process.

In contrast to Shaya, I bought "Wired for love" when he brought it up before, because I do find the whole idea of attachment theory as it relates to adult relationships interesting, however, I was not able to make it past the first chapter. It is very monogamously inclined, which I knew before buying it and I've read other monogamously inclined books and taken what I needed and ignored what didn’t apply, so I thought I could do that with this one. However, reading it exasperated the feelings of sadness I have that my primary relationship has slowly transitioned to me being secondary through my husband's choices and actions, so I couldn't finish even part of the book.

That said, I found a reference to another book on adult attachment in something I was reading by the authors of "More than Two" and I'm thoroughly enjoying that one, named Attached, so far (I'm on chapter 9). It focuses more on attachment theory and how it affects relationships, as opposed to "Wired for Love," which focuses on the idea that you need to have a strong monogamous relationship and how to apply attachment theory to protect that at all costs (the first chapter is about creating a couple bubble, which will protect your relationship and should be the most important single thing you do). It's a subtle distinction but one that makes a huge difference for me, in terms of my emotional response to the books and ability to read them. Just thought I'd share, since you state that you are polyamorous and that monogamy is something that you don't want.

Thanks for your input on these titles, I may check them both out. I'm in a very confusing place right now in regards to my identity and whether I'm letting my partner make the calls too much (I've spent years being submissive and I'm trying not to do that). It's also good to get both perspectives I think so that I can make more well-rounded decisions.