It's a Texlahoma Story

[Spork]

So, I think that self growth and personal development is super great.

But the goal of it is not to get over things that are part of you, to force yourself to be more ideal in someone else's mold of what's good, or to learn to accept things that are contrary to your own Truths. That isn't honoring yourself. That isn't being a free person.

You are doing the self growth. You are doing the personal development. And you've been sharing some big, awesome steps here.

Mainly I see the process as identifying things in our lives that have made us unhappy in past or present, doing some combination of introspection and thinking (sometimes writing or other processing) as well as considering any research or outside input that resonates...trying to comprehend "what is this thing I do, why do I do it, and is it a good fit for my happiness, and if not, what could I do differently and how would I get there?"

Which is very, very different from saying, "Other people live this model and it works for them, so I have to try harder to make it work for me, and if I can't live up to that then I'm failing." I don't really think anyone finds happiness that way. Contentment perhaps, if they don't have any particularly exotic inner needs and if they are very lucky to fall easily into a life situation that works well enough. But I think most people just live life stuck, dealing with the lack of fulfillment and the regrets and resentments, maybe secretly sneaking around and meeting needs in unhealthy ways (whether that is cheating on a partner, or cheating on a diet) and then feeling guilt over it...

To me, polyamory is not even necessarily about what it's about, the multiple partners thing, it's about people looking for ways to responsibly meet needs in more honest ways. To understand themselves, to then take that self-honesty and use it to be more honest with others, and to hose off the cultural grime of shame and sneaking and cheating and regrets and resentments, to say "Just because there is a common model doesn't mean I've got to follow it if it doesn't work for me." The concept at its heart can apply to basically anything, it's just a willingness to write our own scripts.

Which is why I find it laughable when I meet people who act like there is a script for this. The whole "Hierarchy, that's the way this is done, right?" or "Poly is when a couple finds a unicorn" or "I only want other partners for sex, no feelings, because I love my spouse" or whatever...like there are rules. HA! No. Those are options. Not rules.

So I had a lot of bitterness surrounding the concept of men using women for sex. Basically dangling love like a carrot when they just want to get laid and then ditch the woman like trash. That whole dehumanizing...thing. I struggled with these bad feelings about this. Until I flipped the script and thought about all of the MANY times a male developed feelings for me, and I didn't reciprocate them, I just wanted to play with him and be on my way. And I realized that in fact, (and maybe because I've been such a proud slut in my life during some phases) that it has happened more times than the reverse. Did it cheapen or dehumanize those males? I did not see it that way at the time, nor do I now in retrospect. It was fun, felt empowering to me. And I had to realize that there just isn't anything inherently WRONG with anyone wanting sex without a serious emotional bond...as long as they can be honest about it. There isn't anything wrong with anybody wanting anything, so long as they are acting in good faith with others. But first we must be in good faith with OURSELVES.

So the self growth you need to do, in my opinion, does not have a damn thing to do with overcoming whatever feelings you have, unless you WANT to drive yourself down that path...but you're likely to encounter resistance when you try to deny your own Truths. It's more about getting ok with who you are and what you need, and then respecting yourself enough to ask for it without feeling like you're doing anything wrong.

(Sorry for the long post, it's early, and I'm kinda in early-morning-ramble-brain mode...)

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Spork, I like your early morning ramble take on self growth. Becoming more yourself, not changing yourself. That's really what I want for myself in any relationship... To not have to change who I am.

I see soooo many threads that are basically, "I'm jealous, how can I stop being jealous?" or " I'm uncomfortable with this situation, how can I become comfortable with this situation? " And I... I don't want to do that. I don't want to spend my time rewiring my brain so I see and feel things differently. I spent the last year with Dag doing that, it sucked. I'm burnt out on that. I just want to only be in relationships that give me good feelings.

The problem is... Well, there are two, I think.

The first is that an awful lot of standard poly stuff makes me unhappy, so being unwilling to change myself or suck up being miserable limits my partner choices. That's ok, though. Having a fwb would be great, but it's not so important that I'm willing to suffer or change for it.

The second is that I worry my boundaries and needs are ... Unfair? Not unfair as in I'm asking anyone to do more than I would. Unfair as in overly strict. Unrealistic. I worry I'm basically toying with people, I guess. In this "one wrong move and you're history" way... Even though I'm me, and I'm fairly tolerant, and it's more like four wrong moves and we need to talk

It's complicated by the fact that I want to be able to ask for things, and I want any partner to be able to ask for things, but I don't want the ask to create an obligation to say yes. I don't want to pretzel myself, nor do I want anyone to pretzel himself for my sake. And what I REALLY do not want is to create a sense of, I did this thing for you, now you owe me.

I felt that way with Dag. It's one of the reasons it took me so damn long to end a relationship that was making me miserable. He met Andy, and hung out with us several times, even though it wasn't something he necessarily wanted for himself. He did it for me. It was a big thing, and I felt like I owed him for it. I still have guilt over being unable to stay after he did that for me.

I do not want to be there again, staying out of guilt.

All I want is somebody who wants to hang out once or twice a week, have lots of crazy amazing sex, maybe get a beer or see a movie sometimes. I'll probably have the feels, since I can't really have crazy awesome sex without them, but I'm usually fairly sane about it. I do not want it to turn into a thing that requires one or both of us to change who we are or how we feel in order to stay together. If that starts to happen, I want us to stop doing the sex and beer and movies thing.

Sounds so simple...

 

[IndieSolo]

I see soooo many threads that are basically, "I'm jealous, how can I stop being jealous?" or " I'm uncomfortable with this situation, how can I become comfortable with this situation? " And I... I don't want to do that. I don't want to spend my time rewiring my brain so I see and feel things differently. I spent the last year with Dag doing that, it sucked. I'm burnt out on that. I just want to only be in relationships that give me good feelings.

The odd thing, Claire, is that for some reason you read those posts and think that those folks who are writing about their problems are sort of holding up sign that says there is some kind of ideal/blueprint/format for poly that we're all supposed to get on board with. You take it somehow as a directive on how you should live your life, or a reflection that says you're doing it wrong.

When I read posts like that, I often think to myself, "Man, these people are fucked up."

Or similar. I don't relate their issues to me and how I live my life, nor how I "do poly." They have nothing to do with me and live lives that have no bearing on how I live mine.

. . . an awful lot of standard poly stuff makes me unhappy . . .

Whose standards are you talking about? What is the poly standard you're seeing, in concrete terms?

. . . so being unwilling to change myself or suck up being miserable limits my partner choices . . . I don't want to pretzel myself, nor do I want anyone to pretzel himself for my sake.

I don't think living polyamorously means that people need to bend and twist and change themselves and who they are for anyone else. Instead, I think polyamory creates a space for people to be true to themselves.

And no matter whether poly or mono, no relationship should require that anyone "suck it up" and put up with shit that makes them unhappy. I don't think that aspect of the issues you struggle with has anything to do with polyamory specifically. I mean, there are a gazillion books in the relationship/self-help section about how not to do that. People have struggled with surrendering their own needs in deference to their partner's or the "good of the relationship" in monogamous relationships for eons. Creating relationships on our terms and for our own self-fulfillment is a very new paradigm, historically.

The second is that I worry my boundaries and needs are ... Unfair? Not unfair as in I'm asking anyone to do more than I would. Unfair as in overly strict. Unrealistic. I worry I'm basically toying with people, I guess. In this "one wrong move and you're history" way... Even though I'm me, and I'm fairly tolerant, and it's more like four wrong moves and we need to talk

So, do you think that everyone else in the world lets their relationships be a free-for-all without any boundaries? I am someone who believes in having as little rules as possible in poly relationships, or none at all, because we're adults and shouldn't need rules to know how to treat each other well and with respect, right? However, I definitely have boundaries! Hell yeah. I know where the line is that should not be crossed, and have no problem with kicking someone's ass out the door if that happens. There are certain transgressions that do not deserve a second chance. Does that mean I am being unfair? Or am I just honoring myself?

Whose needs do you compare yours to, in determining that yours are unfair?

It's complicated by the fact that I want to be able to ask for things, and I want any partner to be able to ask for things, but I don't want the ask to create an obligation to say yes.

Asking is not the same as demanding or ordering that something happen, so of course whenever we ask for something, there is the chance of not getting what we ask for. That is life. I think what you mean is that you don't want demands placed on you. I don't see that as unreasonable. You already demand so much of yourself, that makes perfect sense.

And what I REALLY do not want is to create a sense of, I did this thing for you, now you owe me.

I felt that way with Dag. It's one of the reasons it took me so damn long to end a relationship that was making me miserable. He met Andy, and hung out with us several times, even though it wasn't something he necessarily wanted for himself. He did it for me. It was a big thing, and I felt like I owed him for it. I still have guilt over being unable to stay after he did that for me.

You want to be able to ask for what you want, yet when it is given to you, you feel obligated in some way. It sounds like there is a belief you have that you do not deserve getting what you want without paying for it. Or that no one would just give to you out of wanting to do for you, out of love and caring, and just to see you happy.

It is that kind of belief system that needs to be addressed, more than dwelling on polyamory and how others do it.

All I want is somebody who wants to hang out once or twice a week, have lots of crazy amazing sex, maybe get a beer or see a movie sometimes.

Sounds perfectly do-able, and not unfair to anyone in any way. There is nothing wrong with what you want.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I gotta say, this blog is like free therapy some days

Whose standards are you talking about? What is the poly standard you're seeing, in concrete terms?

Compersion, pretty much. I can do ok with it if I'm not given many details. I can, in an abstract way, be happy that a partner has other relationships that make him happy. But the more I hear, the less compersion I feel.

Also, for the life of me, I can't give a shit about a meta simply because we share a partner. I can't do transitive caring.

I feel like in both those things, I'm failing at the basic poly mindset.

Whose needs do you compare yours to, in determining that yours are unfair?

The endless women who seem willing to befriend their boyfriends' wives, and don't care if the wife knows every detail of their relationship. I think my expectation of privacy is unfair, and also, my need to not hear details of other relationships.

You want to be able to ask for what you want, yet when it is given to you, you feel obligated in some way. It sounds like there is a belief you have that you do not deserve getting what you want without paying for it. Or that no one would just give to you out of wanting to do for you, out of love and caring, and just to see you happy.

It is that kind of belief system that needs to be addressed, more than dwelling on polyamory and how others do it.

This is so true. And it's actually where the poly comes into it... I feel like, in potential other relationships, I'm asking for soooo much more than I'm "worth".

I completely, 100% believe that my husband and friends and family would give or do things just to make me happy. (Because they do, every day ) But I just can't get my head around why someone who already has a romantic partner would bother with me. I mean, for friendship, sure. But I'm asking for a lot more than what someone would do for/with a friend. I'm asking for him to take time away from his wife/girlfriend, and keep things private from her. I would NEVER expect a friend, even one of my best friends, to keep anything from his or her partner. Or ask that the friend leave their partner home alone every time we hang out. But I ask those things of a fwb person. And I'm offering... What? Sex? Friendship? Great things, but I can't shake the feeling that Mr. Poly Guy could easily get those from hundreds of other women, women who would be willing to be best buds with his wife and share everything and generally offer way more than me

In the end, it really comes down to a very basic "i don't get it" when it comes to people who are by all accounts completely satisfied in their marriages/partnerships seeking out additional partners.

I am willing to make time, and keep secrets, and a whole host of other things, because it is the way for me to have both my husband and a satisfying sex life. And even then, what I'll do is pretty damn limited. But Mr. Poly Guy, who has a great sex life at home? Why??? That's the thing. The thing that keeps me up all night, the thing that gives me anxiety attacks. Why is being more than friends with me worth any effort at all?

I feel compelled to be the perfect manic pixie dream girl, the one who does everything for the guy and has no needs of her own, who's always sexy, never tired, always fun, never sad... Because I truly don't see why someone who is already getting love/sex/romance/friendship at home would add a second relationship for anything less than a whirlwind Disney rollercoaster of non stop bliss.

 

[AutumnLeaves]

I think everyone falls different places on the befriending metas/caring about meta's needs/wanting details spectrums. There is no one good way to do poly. There is no basic poly mindset. Are you open to ethical, non-monogamous relationships? Congrats, you're on the basic poly mindset spectrum, here, have a card so you can be a card-carrying member. (Cards may not be redeemed for any value, they may in fact just be a label that is only helpful until it's not.) The rest is not "basic poly," it's relationship style and relationship philosophy. And you have every right to do things differently to make yourself happy.

It sounds like you struggle a lot with putting value judgements on your needs, minimizing them or belittling yourself, or not feeling free to stand up for yourself. Sometimes I just want to give you a friendly shoulder-shake through the screen and tell you that you are FINE the way you are, your needs are your needs, and anyone who can't meet them may be a good person but not be a good match for you.

You do not need to change for anyone. You're fine the way you are. You have value. And you deserve to feel valued and be happy.

 

[Tinwen]

The endless women who seem willing to befriend their boyfriends' wives, and don't care if the wife knows every detail of their relationship. I think my expectation of privacy is unfair, and also, my need to not hear details of other relationships.

I think you've got a lot of idealised pictures about other people. I doubt there are endless women like that. In fact, it's hard for poly guys to find women, isn't it?
Even if there surely are people who befriend metamours, they do it, because it's actually easier for them (in the best case scenario, of course). Even for me, and you know how ambivalent my relationship is, it's easier communication and time-wise to see Meta now and then at least, first out of compromise with their preferences and second because we share a common circle of friends.
It's not easier for you.

In the end, it really comes down to a very basic "i don't get it" when it comes to people who are by all accounts completely satisfied in their marriages/partnerships seeking out additional partners.

I am willing to make time, and keep secrets, and a whole host of other things, because it is the way for me to have both my husband and a satisfying sex life. And even then, what I'll do is pretty damn limited. But Mr. Poly Guy, who has a great sex life at home? Why???

I consider this an idealized picture again. Of course he's got some need for another relationship, otherwise he wouldn't seek one (be it variety, be it "great" sex but too little of it, or some subtle mismatch in emotional intimacy, or just thrill seeking, or something more dark). And these needs, they differ, so you'll have to ask the guy you have in mind. And that guy, if he's at least a little mature, will know that relationships come with both good and bad.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Sometimes I need a good shoulder shake

I just wish I could go back to the blissful ignorance I enjoyed for my first few years of non monogamy. I probably hurt a lot of people, not on purpose but simply by failing to realize that they took our relationships seriously. But... I was happy, back then. I had my "real" relationship with Andy, and then I had some guy to flirt with and text naked pictures and grab an occasional beer and have fabulous sex. We'd have fun, then we'd go back to our real lives.

Did I care about these guys? I liked them. I enjoyed them. I loved some of them, in a way, though it was nothing like the love I feel for Andy. I certainly wanted good things for them. But I didn't *need* them, and I assumed they felt the same way about me. It seemed like ... a fun distraction. I didn't expect any of those relationships to last very long. I figured they'd end at the first hint of spousal stress or when real life got busy.

See that word I keep using? "Real". I didn't see those other guys as real relationships. We were playing relationship, sometimes, because it made the sex better to say I love you. But we both had real lives, and we weren't part of each other's real lives, and we didn't expect to be.

Or at least, that's what I thought. Now I wonder. Did they see our time together as real, important, necessary? Did they expect me to prioritize them and work through the hard times? Were they hurt when I didnt?

Dag was a game changer, though in a very strange way. Being with him made me realize that you could be married and still take other relationships seriously. This is the part where I'm supposed to have my "poly is the one true way" moment and live happily ever after. Except it didn't happen like that. Trying to have two serious, committed, intense relationships made me miserable. Trying to see the boyfriend/girlfriend thing as being in the same level as the husband/wife thing made my head explode.

I tried and tried and tried and tried. And I did ok, mostly, but I was never happy once I started seeing the Dag relationship as being just as real as the Andy relationship. This whole year of blog is just me cascading further into depression and self doubt. Until I broke up with him, and had fun dating again!

Now, there's Clark. A great guy. But poly as hell. And I'm terrified of ending up back where I was with Dag. I want the flirting and laughing and kissing and screwing and hanging out, but I don't want the crushing pressure of a "serious relationship". I used to think that was ok, hell, I used to think that was the only thing any married-but-open person wanted. Now I worry it's cruel and unfair of me to want that. I worry that if that's all I'm willing to give, I don't have the right to ask for anything at all.

I wish I could put the poly genie back in the bottle

 

[Spork]

I feel compelled to be the perfect manic pixie dream girl, the one who does everything for the guy and has no needs of her own, who's always sexy, never tired, always fun, never sad... Because I truly don't see why someone who is already getting love/sex/romance/friendship at home would add a second relationship for anything less than a whirlwind Disney rollercoaster of non stop bliss.

Oh, believe you me I drive myself bananas over this stuff, too. If I don't present lots of great benefits then why would anyone want to be with me? I can dazzle people in the short term, with stories and humor and stuff...but eventually I run out of emotional glitter to throw around, once people really know me, they'll find I'm full of doubts and insecurities, sometimes aches, pains and worries, life and stress and boring stories about my cat, because even though I've done exciting stuff in the past, my life sure is not a nonstop whirlwind of carnival like excitement.

Get to the boring human stuff and why on earth would anybody want me around?

I am fortunate because the basic physical realities of the man I'm with and how he behaves when we're together, completely set my soul at ease that regardless of whether I'm boring (to myself) he is thrilled to have me. He's entertained because there is a bit of light reflecting off my eyes in the restaurant. I don't need to work harder to dazzle him. But let a few days go by where I haven't seen him... Well, I'm trying to be better. To hold onto memories to soothe myself.

But my point is, I totally fucking get this feeling. So so much. And it's hard to break free of it, especially as a matter of doing the head-therapy-work on yourself.

So there is that, just wanting to share some sympathy with your plight on that point.

Then the other point I want to address, is the whole thing about meta privacy needs. Look, if you were in this area, I could introduce you to a couple of men who just out of basic habit do NOT talk to women about other women they may be involved with or were in the past. I am the opposite of you in this regard, I want to know everything and everyone, and being in the dark about details makes me uncomfortable. But getting a few of these dudes I've dated since my marriage broke up to talk about their love lives, even their history, it's been like pulling teeth! So they are out there. And mainly, importantly, understand that this isn't a "fair or not fair" thing and it's not only to do with YOU and your needs and boundaries.

If a partner asked me to not discuss my other partners with them, I would have tremendous difficulty doing that. You and I would NOT be compatible (aside from the detail of gender/orientation)...I'm an extrovert, bit of a gossip, and love to process and talk about people. In fact it's one of the things I use to stave off the feeling that I'm boring someone, I've got stuff to talk about because I know lots of other humans...if I run out of my stories, I'll start telling theirs. Privacy is not my default setting, though I'm capable if a partner specifically tells me to keep something to myself.

Other people I've known though, usually the more introverted ones, are the complete opposite of that. They don't want to talk to people about other people. It's just not part of the fabric of Who They Are.

So you asking for that, would be a lot more well received, if you've found a partner where you are working with their basic nature, and not against it.

And I would also say that a few dates in, maybe about the time that the possibility of sex is coming into the picture, maybe explain to a guy that "Look...I have to walk a balance in these external relationships. I want the fun, the sex, the movies and dinners and beers. But I've got a bad habit of putting too much pressure on myself to step up and be this silly ideal of a Good Girlfriend and then I get stressed out, and one way or another it is something that causes trouble. It would be really nice if you could remind me once in a while that there is no pressure here. That we are in this for the fun."

I think that is a completely reasonable sort of thing to discuss with someone.

 

[Hannahfluke]

I think as long as you're open and honest about what you can offer and handle with the people who you are seeing, there is absolutely nothing wrong, at all, about wanting a casual, fun relationship. My longest relationship, outside of my marriage, is with Sam, my dom. He very much identifies as poly, but our relationship, despite having added the D/s dynamic, has always been fairly chill and laid back (well, once I got past being a newb who thought that every relationship had to mirror what my husband has always had with his girlfriend). I always thought of Sam as more of a FWB than a romantic partner, at least before the D/s was introduced. We dated fairly casually for two years, until I got entangled in a more serious relationship and ghosted on Sam (which apparently he was fine with, I've asked him about it). 3 years after that, we started casually dating again, once every few months usually, and it always felt like being with Sam was a calm, quiet place for me to enjoy just being me, with no expectations or demands (it had felt like this pretty much from the moment I let go of the idea that every relationship had to be as intense as my husband's with his girlfriend). That was about 3 years ago. A year and a half ago we added the D/s dynamic and while it changed a few things, our relationship is still fairly easy going and chill. We see each other once or twice a month, we have sex, watch a movie, whatever. Last time I was over there, I had a panic attack (not because of him, he just had the unfortunate job of helping me through it) and he reminded me that his place is supposed to be the calm, quiet, retreat from all the shit going on in the rest of my life.

I'm rambling, but my point is that this relationship, which has been going on, with a few breaks, for the last 7 years, is, for the most part, fairly casual and unentwined, though we do both care immensely for each other and talk by IM almost daily. And he is the one who originally set the parameters of how entwined we would become. Now that he's my dom, that's even more true. So there are men out there who identify as poly and want the same things you do, Claire. I think you're projecting what Dag wanted on to all poly men as an absolute and it just isn't. Diversity of desires for commitment in relationships exist everywhere, including poly.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Thanks everyone for the support (and reality checks). I'm feeling better today, I think in large part because I FINALLY have the rest of Christmas vacation scheduling done. Anxiety is just ugh this time of year, trying to get it all in.

As for Clark, and dating in general, I think the take home message is talk less to the blog and more to the boy Worries like "i'm going to have to hear about his wife constantly" and " he's going to be disappointed if I don't spend 3 days a week with him" can be headed off pretty easily with a simple conversation. I stress myself out because I worry my wants and needs are just plain illogical, but seriously, fuck it. Dude can put up with my weird or he can move on to somebody normal

The first convo is definitely going to be "please don't bring up your wife and her needs when we're deciding stuff about you+me".

" I'm not ready to have sex with you yet" (ok, cool)
vs
"My wife is having a tough week and so I would like to hold off on sex until she's more confortable" (Dude, really? Why are you telling me that? )

"I'm busy Tuesday" (No problem.)
vs
" My wife really wants to go see a movie Tuesday ... " (ugh ugh ugh)

I do not know why this upsets me so much. I really dont. But it does. It's like, instant bad mood. It doesn't even bother me that someone is making decisions based on his wife's needs - just that he's *telling* me that's what's behind the decision. Maybe because it makes me think I'm supposed to be happy his wife is happy? And yet I can't find any fucks to give?

I am probably equally ok waiting for sex or not, hanging out on Tuesday or Wednesday. But the whole "now we have a solution where everyone is happy, yay!!!" just rubs me wrong . Because I don't feel that. I feel zero percent better about the decision knowing a meta is happy about it. Also zero percent worse, fwiw. It's just a non-thing. But I get this sense it's supposed to make me happy, or something, and... Yeah, just tell me what day you're free, don't mention the wife.

So. That is on the list of Shit Dudes Should Know About Me.

 

[Tinwen]

I do not know why this upsets me so much. I really dont. But it does. It's like, instant bad mood. It doesn't even bother me that someone is making decisions based on his wife's needs - just that he's *telling* me that's what's behind the decision.

For me, part of this is that it's a total turn-off. It feels like someone is deciding about my partner. I guess it's part of my submissiveness - I totally want my partner do be his own boss (and mine, for just a tiny little bit). I don't even mind hearing that it's about the wife, but the wording totally matters
"I want to go out with Meta on Tuesday" - ok, I may be cool with it or disappointed and jealous, but I respect your choice
"Meta wants me to go out with her on Tuesday" - oh my god, is she your boss? what the fuck does that have to do with us?
Kinda similar and kinda different I guess

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I wanted to post a happy Christmas-y update, because I did have a great Christmas with Andy and our friends and family. But I am feeling all down and poor me tonight

I miss monogamy. I am grieving it hard right now. Oddly it's not having my primary partner all to myself that I miss. No, I'm pretty good at sharing Andy. He gets my boundaries. My needs are pretty simple, spend quality time with me, be discreet-bordering-on-dadt about sex stuff, and don't even think about anybody moving in with us.

What I miss is *being* mono. I hate that at 37 I still have to buy condoms. I hate that sex happens when somebody has a house to themselves or springs for a hotel, instead of whenever we feel like it. I hate that sex frequently ends with one of both of us driving home, instead of cuddling and falling asleep. None of these things make me feel like an empowered woman who owns her sexuality. They make me feel like a teenager, except that even at seventeen, I had my shit together enough to go on the pill and lose the frigging condoms.

This week has been tough. Andy is off work and so he didn't bother to shave, after a few days he had the manly man scruffy look I adore. I pretty much tried to jump his bones 24-7. And he just wasn't feeling it, because when he has facial hair (any hair) he doesn't feel sexy. I get it, I do. Sex isn't just about feeling desire for your partner, it's about feeling desirable yourself. He doesn't feel that when he looks masculine. Still, another reminder, what I like and what he likes barely even overlap.

I wish I could find a single guy who was up for being sexually monogamous but didn't want much weekend time. Talk about unicorn hunting, lol. Seriously though. I'd take 3 months of single mono guy over 3 years of partnered and cohabiting guy.

Yup, I'm wallowing in self pity tonight. Let's just call it feeling my feelings, that sounds better

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

The discussion has gotten sidetracked by whether or not avoiding a truth is a lie. I'd say it's worse.
________________

When you're unable/unwilling to discuss something, it's poison. It's a huge lawn, & just one little black spot you need to fence off, so no biggie, right?

A topic that can't be discussed, or even broached, requires that stuff related to it take on toxicity, because venturing into those areas might unintentionally lead to the landmine. The little black spot now has a brown ring, so you put up a bigger fence, but no problem.

Avoiding those fringe-area subjects means avoiding other related thoughts -- don't look too close or they'll drag your line of sight to that little black spot & the thought of what's "hidden" there might start to haunt you. Look away, look away.

Brown spots start to pop up randomly on the lawn. At each, something there reminded you of the black spot & its environs. Probably nothing significant... but when you've got that huge lawn, & an unlimited supply offencing, why run the risk of setting off some sort of chain reaction?

One day, you realize that you can't walk a straight line across your lawn for all the fenced-off spots. You begin to wonder who's to blame for limiting you.

This resonated with me in a very unexpected way. It's from a discussion of how/whether to tell a mono partner you are poly, something far from my own experience. But it has truth in so many situations.

I have been fencing off more and more of my yard, of myself, of my truth. There are so many things I am afraid to say or even think because I have come to see them as toxic.

I get frustrated some days because I feel like I write something here and people just misunderstand. Well, of course they do. I've created these no-go spots in my world view, these patches of my own belief system that I believe are so wrong and cruel that I can never speak of them.

Ok, well, fuck that. I'm going to start just saying how I see things. Apologies in advance for the fact that a lot of it will offend people. But I have been blogging here for over a year, getting nowhere, so obviously being politically correct and nodding and smiling is not working for me.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Truth I have been afraid to admit #1

For me, piv intercourse is sex, and everything else... Touching, oral, toys... Is not "real" sex. I hate admitting this because it's so heteronormative and our of vogue. But it's how it FEELS to me. I can call the other stuff play, or even sexy play, but calling it sex feels wrong. If I have an orgasm from hands or a tongue or a toy, I do not feel like I have had sex. It feels like I've masturbated with company. No bonding feels, no vulnerability, no intimacy. And, to be frank, the orgasms from that stuff are like dipping my toe into a pool, compared to the diving in headfirst orgasms of intercourse.

Andy knows this, we used to talk about it all the time when we were sexually monogamous, how nothing else was even in the same dimension for me as intercourse. We don't talk about it anymore. Partly because there's no reason to, partly because I feel awkward and ashamed about it.

But I need to own it, if only in my mind, for myself. Because when I am sleeping with someone else - a boyfriend, fwb, whatever - I feel like I am sexually monogamous with him. And that's important, to me, it's a big feel. Both in terms of how I see myself and in terms of how I see the relationship.

 

[Tinwen]

This resonated with me in a very unexpected way.

That post resonated with me too (although maybe less personally). It's a very powerful immage.

 

[KC43]

I haven't been on here in a few days... a lot to catch up on! Let me see if I can remember what I was going to say...

Compersion. I'm pretty sure I haven't got a drop of it. It's irrelevant with Hubby, since he chooses to be monogamous with me. With my boyfriend... I like seeing him happy. I like knowing other people make him happy, because that means he's happy, and I like seeing him happy. But *I* am not always happy about it. It raises insecurities and fears for me, which I'm better about than I used to be but still not great. I've set pretty specific boundaries about what I want him to tell me involving other partners or potential partners, and I prefer he stick to those.

Befriending metamours. Okay, one of my metamours has become my best friend...but I sometimes think that's because she's quite a distance away so our friendship is almost entirely Facebook messaging. Another meta is quite nice, but we're rarely in the same place at the same time. I don't know how comfortable--if at all--I would be if I were expected to socialize on a regular basis with a meta, let alone befriend one. I know people who double date with their partners and partners' other partners... and the idea of doing that makes me want to scream. (I was sort of in that position on a couple of occasions, and it was uncomfortable as fuck, so not really something I'd like to repeat.)

The whole "kitchen table poly" thing is not a thing I think I'd want to be part of; I was very, very relieved when Hubby decided he no longer wanted to attend movie nights or any parties or anything at my boyfriend's, because even though on those occasions I was the hinge, the awkwardness and discomfort I felt was more than I could deal with sometimes.

I'm not closed to friendships or socializing with metamours; I intend to take it on a case-by-case basis. But at this point, I strongly feel it's something I would much rather not do.

Long story short: Those things don't have to be part of a poly relationship. You don't have to be happy for your partner having other partners; you don't have to be friends with their other partners; if you have a respectful partner and phrase the request in a respectful way, you don't even have to hear your partner's other partners' names if you don't want to.

"Real" sex... I feel the same way you do, to be honest. For me personally, PIV is sex, anything else is whatever it is (fingering, oral, masturbation, whatever). For anyone else, as far as I'm concerned, sex is whatever they consider it to be; I don't think of it heteronormatively, I don't think, because considering PIV the "only real sex" is exclusive to how *I* conduct *my* sex life, not what anyone else does.

As part of trying to give myself a more positive outlook about sex in general and my sex life in particular, I'm trying to reframe how I think; I'm trying to consider fondling and fingering and even masturbation as being "real" sex. But I have to consciously remind myself of that most of the time.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I'm not closed to friendships or socializing with metamours; I intend to take it on a case-by-case basis. But at this point, I strongly feel it's something I would much rather not do.

Yeah, same. I kind of like kitchen table poly in theory... But in theory, the metas are people I really like and would want to be around even if they weren't dating my partner. In reality, I don't like most people and having to pretend to enjoy people I don't feels like a dumb waste of time.

As part of trying to give myself a more positive outlook about sex in general and my sex life in particular, I'm trying to reframe how I think; I'm trying to consider fondling and fingering and even masturbation as being "real" sex. But I have to consciously remind myself of that most of the time.

I tried to think that way, for years. But it didn't feel *positive* for me. It just made me kinda feel asexual. Like, well, if this is sex, what's the big deal, why do people even bother Of course, different situation ... I was trying to be ok with getting piv next to never, trying to convince myself that sex was sex and it was enough whether or not it involved intercourse.

Now I'm just like, if I personally, for myself, feel that intercourse is completely different and a billion times better than other sexy time stuff, and it has an effect on me that other things don't, that's ok.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Uncomfortable truth #2

My experiences with polyamory have changed how I feel about other women, and not in a good way.

I used to be one of those women who had super close female friendships, loved my girlfriends like sisters, enjoyed living with other women, enjoyed female bonding in general. Over the past couple of years, I have more and more started to see women as competition, threats to my marriage and happiness. I find myself becoming one of those "I don't get along with other women" people. It makes me sad. It confuses me. I don't fully understand it, but it's there and it's real.

And I have been afraid to voice it, to the point where I feel like I'm faking it all the time, pretending I'm still the old me, when the truth is I now have an instinctive shudder when I think of interacting with women.

My best understanding of it (and this may change, as I explore the feelings I've avoided for so long) is that for most of my life, I operated under the assumption that a true girlfriend would not steal my boyfriend or husband, because she loved me. If the unthinkable happened, and one of my trusted bffs did try to steal my guy, I could dismiss her as unworthy of my friendship and view losing her from my life as dodging a bullet. (Same with the loser guy who would leave me to be with my friend.)

Now... I am trying to navigate a world where it's ok if a girl suddenly decided she wants to share my guy. Where the expectation is that I'll embrace her, welcome her, and offer up half my dude's time and energy because love. Or at the very least, view her as a person whose desire to have a relationship with my guy is valid and deserving of respect and consideration. It makes me fear other women. Avoid them. It sucks and I miss female friendship, but there it is.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Uncomfortable truth #3

My relationship with Dag took something away from my relationship with Andy.

I tried not to face it, I tried not to see it, and I tried so hard to find some way to look at it where it was a good thing, not a bad one. But, yeah, I did not feel as close or as invested in Andy when I had a second partner. I didn't love him less. But I thought about him less. I cared a little less about his needs, his feelings. I paid less attention, basically.

We're ok, no permanent harm done. It's just... Fuck. I dunno. There was a distance, and now there's not. There was a tension, and now it's gone.

Shifting back to only having one partner was really hard. Way harder than I expected. It showed me how much I had been able to avoid dealing with little issues in my marriage by ignoring them and focusing on Dag. It took a few months to feel right again in my marriage, and now I'm happy, but terrified of it happening again.

I do not feel that I have 100% to my marriage while I was seeing dag. I do feel like the effort and energy I have to the Dag relationship was subtracted from the Andy relationship.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Confession is good for the soul...

I can't even explain how much RELIEF I feel having poured all this out into words. All the shame, all the secrets, all the toxic thoughts I have been burying. I feel peace. I faced the worst of it, and I'm still here.