Looking for advice/perspective

[Ihq]

We are very new to the polyamorous world.

I have been together with my guy for 8 years, married for 6. In complete honesty, we have dealt with a ton of jealousy and controlling behavior on both our parts in the past, but seemed to get ahead of that in the last couple years.

Recently we started talking about poly as an option for us. I probably led the discussion. After some discussion, we decided that we were going to give this a try. Now there seems to be several roadblocks, at least for me right now, and I am having a hard time working towards this. Some of the problems for me moving into this are that, the rules (for lack of a better world) keep changing. Originally he just wanted me to date girls, and this kind of worked, because he was talking about wanting us to find a person to love together. We do know that this is not always possible, and often not even probable. He was not sure how comfortable I was with sleeping with guys.

In the change of moving from one spectrum to the other, he found a girl. Which is fine. And when I really think about it, I am happy for him. In many ways it was good, because he was afraid he wouldn't be able to find someone else, and because I knew it would stress him out if I was dating someone else and he wasn't. But, in all these changes of what we wanted, they seemed to be changing to match the relationship he wants with this girl, which is, honestly, almost opposite to what I wanted. But I am still trying to work with it.

The relationship with her is brand new. They have exchanged emails for about three weeks and gone on two dates. During those dates, I actually had no issues. I was not worried or upset or anything like that. But each time, he has done some stupid little lack of respect thing that really gets to me, for example, being late without telling me (and then saying it was because she didn't tell him what time it was ).

I have some issues with her, I think... but I don't know if those issues I have with her are about her, or because I am frustrated with him.

The end result to all this is me feeling extremely vulnerable and hurt. I have asked him to take (particularly the emotional aspect) of this new relationship slowly, so that I can get my balance and be okay. I am aware that for this to work, I have to catch my breath with all these changes. But the NRE he is feeling is not allowing for that. I am so afraid that if I can't get balanced with this, I am not going to be able to do this, and that, in the end, it will end up hurting not only us, but her, as well.

Any thoughts, perspective or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Marcus]

Some of the problems for me, moving into this, is that the rules keep changing.

Being your first go at it, I'm not surprised that the goal posts are shifting around. It seems reasonable to expect that how you envisioned this working out in theory will look different from how it actually plays out.

I don't function with rules on how I can behave (you have to pay me for that ), but I understand that many people do. I suggest taking a look at what rules you have in place, and whittle them down to the most absolutely essential. Which are the rules that are in place to keep you from real harm? I'd say if any of *those* rules get broken, then speak up and say it like you mean it.

Otherwise, chasing him around with the tedium of rules is probably going to fall on deaf ears, certainly while he's got some NRE pumping.

But each time he has done some stupid little lack of respect thing that really gets to me, for example, being late without telling me (and then saying it was because she didn't tell him what time it was ).

This rule, for example. What was the explicit agreement you had about when he was to return? Was it that he needed to come home when the street lights came on?

Rules to sate your personal comfort might seem like a good idea at the time, but restricting someone's behavior is bound to breed resentment and rebellion. Most people don't like being told what to do with their personal lives, and this includes lovers.

It's good to look at your initial expectations and rules and give them a critical and adult look. Don't let pride or fear get in the way of making reasonable changes to your expectations and the resulting "rules."

I have asked him to take (particularly the emotional aspect) of this new relationship slowly so that I can get my balance and be okay. I am aware that for this to work, I have to catch my breath with all these changes.

Some people don't get caught up in NRE and can function just fine while experiencing it. I find this to be true with people who have experienced it many times in their life, so it is not a misconception of "I've never felt this way before" ... because they have so many times. For people who have only had a couple of loves, NRE can be pretty much crippling, because they allow themselves to be tricked into thinking it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

"Take it slow" might seem like a perfectly reasonable request, from your perspective, but you might be trying to explain how to set the clock on the VCR to a guy who dropped too much X. There's no harm in saying it, if it's something important to you, but if your expectation is for him to snap out of it and be perfectly rational, then you might need to revisit your expectation.

You'll note that pretty much everything you talked about was concerning him, and everything I've talked about is mainly about you. This is the big shift that will help you grow in polyamory (and relationships in general). It's important to realize that we are the masters of our own destiny; that our feelings and actions are entirely of our own design and responsibility. So, focus on changing your actions in order to grow and mature, instead of changing his actions to facilitate your growth.

 

[Dirtclustit]

I think you are doing fine

A lot of people try to date another person as a couple, it's only a problem when you are not flexible and willing to let go of that when things don't turn out that way. And you did, so luckily you won't get attacked for hunting.

It all sounds like standard insecurities that you would likely find no problem dealing with if your boyfriend was acting like an adult.

I don't know anybody that would seriously try something like this

(and then saying it was because she didn't tell him what time it is).

I know 13 year-olds that are more mature than that

Everybody makes mistakes, it's what you after that counts, and that is pretty disrespectful.

If that was your first time with him out on a date and he said he would call by a certain time, and hours later he doesn't , it is little things like that which can make your first attempts at opening up a nightmare.

Yes, you should eventually be able to make it through all these little hardships, but there really isn't any point in trying it if he isn't going to be respectful. Disrespecting your lovers will burn even a poly veteran, and getting way to caught up in NRE does ruin relationships, but it's too early to even know if he is going to go all NRE crazy.

Sounds like it's just him being irresponsible and people like that can be impossible to be in a relationship with, even for monogamists, disrespect is disrespect is disrespect.

It could be on accident, so you are going to have to tell him that he needs to follow through with the little things like checking in as it makes life much easier for you.

Why put yourself through crap that could easily be taken care of with minimal effort on his part

 

[Murasaki]

The Poly learning Curve

Here's a graphic for a game, but from what I have read here, it fits with figuring out poly as well.

[dead link]

The issues you have talked about can often be worked out through educating yourself.

I would suggest you check out the "Golden Nuggets" collection of threads (sometimes call the master thread).

Then read about "poly hell things." I suggest you share this with your husband, and talk about how you each feel about these things, and what it might take to reduce the stress NRE can cause.

Then check out Jealousy things: one, two, three

And Secondary/third things: one, two, three

Other good reading in the interest of keeping things smooth, and drama free. One, Two, [URL="http://sexgeek.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/ooh-baby-let-me-get-out-my-agenda-the-logist

Most of these links (if not all) can be found in Golden Nuggets, along with many many more.

 

[Ihq]

First, I want to thank everybody for their responses. They gave me some perspective and some thinking points, which is what I needed. I am much more at ease with what I need to do and where I need to be headed now!

Marcus, I do really appreciate the reminder that I can only control myself. And I am aware of what points I do need to think about and work through.

Dirt, thank you for giving me some talking points. I think in my frustration I might not have been able to explain my issues as clearly.

Murasaki, those resources are awesome! Thank you.

 

[SilverKate]

Beware puppy love and boundaries. I am so bad at those.

I second what the person said about new love. When puppy love starts, it can be mild or obsessive. I tend to be the latter. I am head over heels, and want to be with the person 24/7. And if I am on a date, I lose track of time.

I have set alarms, have had friends call me at certain points, and have just said the date will end at X time. However, when you are with a person (new or not) and enjoying their company, time gets away from you.

Now, having said that, I have a live-in partner who knows my ways. When we look for a new partner, he goes and buys new video games he wants and stashes them for my date nights. When he dates, I just go online, read, hang with other friends. If I am not on a date, I relish my me-time.

This works for us.

We love each other. However, I am not loved less if he is out with a friend (or girlfriend).

We both have a time-out button. If things are getting too intense (for anyone), or the new partner starts throwing out "keywords to trouble," or we wind up with someone who is "attached and now needs rescuing" (financial or emotional), or we have not spent any time together in a few days (we never let it get over a week), then that is the time to step back, reflect, and see where this is going.

We also will not date others who are not into poly. Period.

This is where our boundaries are enforced upfront-- in the puppy-love time. You guys will figure it out. Trust me, I had a 20-year and a 10-year co-relationship that worked, but not without a lot of work. Having been a widow now, for 2 years, of one of my guys, and now redating, we had to start finding us and our boundaries again. Our second go at it tanked spectacularly... flames everywhere. We took a little more time off, and are now dating others again, with lessons learned.

 

[bookbug]

Here is something to consider for perspective: for the things like being late, ask yourself, if he were late getting back from the grocery store, what would your emotional reaction be? Personally, it irks me when people are late and fail to inform me of it, even if it is just what time I can expect the person to return from the grocery store. If you feel as I do about such an issue, then use that as a baseline, and any other emotions you piled on top of it relating to your guy's behavior is probably the polyamory experience. You don't need to feel any more disrespected for his failure to check in than you would under ordinary circumstances, and given the fascination with the newness of everything, it might be somewhat understandable.

In such a case, if it were true, I would probably point out to him that you would be irked for failing to at least let you know he was going to be late regardless of where he was, and then ask him how he would feel if your positions were reversed. A lot of successful relationships, polyamorous or not, are based on good communication, and mutual understanding that comes from being able to put yourself in the other person's shoes.

Now, Marcus does have a point that perhaps the best way to deal with it would be not to make rules that set everybody up for failure. The thing of it is, if you chuck the "check in at a certain time" rule (or come home, in this case), then your guy needs to be willing to live by it when you are the one out on a date. If he's not, then he needs to act like an adult and abide by it. (Seriously, it's the new girl's responsibility to make sure he meets his agreed-upon responsibilities with you?)

 

[Ihq]

The late thing is not a "rule" thing. It was a matter of when he said he would be home. In this case, I don't think what someone say is a rule, it's just what they are going to do.

The best way to explain this is if he had just been out with his friends, I would have called and been annoyed. I don't want to call him when on a date, especially a new girl. I think that sets up wrong impressions of... well, both of us to his new girl. And honestly, if they had been together for a longer period of time, I probably would have just called.

I guess the irritating point is that I felt that the initial actions were completely disrespectful, followed by a dumb statement. And I don't think he actually believed it. I think it was just what came out of his mouth when I said something, thought about when he said it. Their date was set around her schedule, and she had to be somewhere, and I think she blew it off.

I felt like my hands were tied in what I would have normally done, compounding the issue.

And it is not this particular issue only, it is just... if you say you are going to do something-- you do it. So it isn't specifically that he was late, it was that he told me one thing and didn't do it. I think the part that relates to the actual relationship that is getting to me is that I don't want stupid stuff like this to be the norm. I could lower my expectation, but that is hard when these little things seem to be an issue of respect.

BTW, none of these things were things I asked him; they were things that he said.

 

[bookbug]

I get what you are saying about this not being a rule, but rather an expectation that he himself set. It sounds to me that while this occurred in a poly situation, you are miffed about the simple lack of common courtesy, coupled with the fact that you were prevented from dealing with it in the way you normally would.

I guess I would ask him what he would like you to do in the future when he tells you he is going to do something and doesn't follow through. Should you be able to call and confirm all is well? That he is just running late?

And again, I would ask him how he would feel if the situation were reversed.

(I am a very laid-back person in general, but when someone fails to show as expected, and I don't hear from them, it always crosses my mind that something may have happened to them, like a car wreck. Not that has never actually been the case, but the point is, you don't know.)

 

[Marcus]

The late thing is not a "rule" thing. It was a matter of when he said he would be home... The best way to explain this is... if he had just been out with his friends, I would have called and been annoyed.

Were you waiting for him because you guys had agreed you were going to do a particular thing at a particular time, this thing being sensitive to when it is started, or was it "I'll be home at 8," and he wasn't home right at 8?

I don't know your situation and I'm sure there is lots to it, but it sounds like you are getting yourself worked up for no apparent reason. Now, if I have an agreement with someone that they'll be home at 7:30, so that we can go catch the 7:45 showing of a movie, and I'm waiting at home, and they show up at 7:45... that means we can't do the thing planned and I would be mildly irritated. But if they said they'd be home at 7:30, and I'm sitting around watching re-runs, and figuring out what I want to eat, and they show up at 8:30... who cares? Why get all worked up over it if there was no harm done?

The issue of "What if they are dead in a ditch?" has always been a weak argument, imo. If they are out with their friends and are late... why are they late? Obviously because they are out with their friends and they are, god forbid, having a good time and lost track of the hour. If he's on a date and running late, what do you imagine happened? I'm sure he doesn't need his pissed off wife/girlfriend calling him and griping at him like he's a little kid. "The street lights are on and YOU SAID YOU'D BE HOME."

If you are just looking for a reason to put the hammer down on this guy, then I'd say your irritation is your own fault.

stupid -annoyed -irritating -disrespectful -dumb -stupid

I recommend taking a look at what is bothering you. Are you being so deeply and profoundly inconvenienced by his unabashed disregard for your feelings as to prompt so much irritation? Or... is this not a big deal and you are displacing some other negative feeling and using this as an outlet?

It sounds like something is definitely going on, but I'm skeptical that his being later than he said is really grounds for this much frustration.

Do you know what is actually bothering you?

 

[WhatHappened]

Ihq, I'm with you. I think it's a matter of common courtesy, if there's an agreement to be home at a certain time, to either follow through or call and explain. Common courtesy!

I think this whole 'nobody can control me or my body or my actions' can be carried too far, to the point of people becoming isolated islands. We do live together, and it's important to be able to feel we can count on someone and rely on what they say. If they routinely show up late, it's about more than simply being late-- it's about learning bit by bit that their word doesn't actually mean anything.

 

[Confused]

I think if you tell someone you're going to do something, then you follow up on it, if you can. If you can't, then you let them know as soon as possible and apologise. It's not about rules. It's about being honest about your intentions, and communicating if plans change.

 

[Dirtclustit]

most reasonable people can see

where the problematic behavior resides that bugs the OP. And it would be fairly ignorant to or rather outright incompetent to pretend that this devil is in the details, nobody can stop you from choosing to make that your point of contention Marcus, you can and it seems you likely will no matter what the OP says, answers, or clarifies you may not be able to see that to her the issue is not whether it's fifteen minutes late while she is watching reruns, and neither is it that he agreed to going on a date but made it clear he would not begone overnight, or at the latest after the bars close and if he wasn't coming home when he agreed, then he'd call

it sounds like she was pretty clear in the very first post in this thread, it's not the details that she appears to be very understanding of, but rather the continued disrespectful behavior after the fact that she is having a hard time with. Since it is someting that can be so easily remedied, to continue to twist it into something it is not is often taken as being mean spirited or at the least passive aggressive as it tends to be a sensitive topic that you are choosing to feign not understanding what the big deal is, big surprise since you so rarely ever choose to exercise strategery ATA657.976 of section two of the anarchist grammarian "how to dominate forum threads and win debates on the internet with our three week no fail patented system" and now I wish I did pay that $29.99 so I too could appear as superior

 

[Murasaki]

Were you waiting for him because you guys had agreed you were going to do a particular thing at a particular time, this thing being sensitive to when it is started?

Or was it "I'll be home at 8," and he wasn't home right at 8?

I don't know your situation, and I'm sure there is lots to it, but it sounds like you are getting yourself worked up for no apparent reason.

I'll have to disagree.

If I am told, "Hey, I'm going to walk around downtown. See you at X time, or I'll let you know if anything changes," then within a reasonable time for say, traffic or what not (usually 15-20 mins), I expect to see you walking through the door. Doesn't need a "date" or anything time-specific behind that.

Now if you are going out, with the guys, for a walk, to run errands, on a date, and you say, "Hey, I gotta run. Not sure when I'll make it home," that's fine with me.

It's when you give me a time you'll be home by, regardless of where you are going, or what you'll be doing, and not sticking to the time you set. Basically if you set a time, keep that time, or let me know it's changed. I may have made plans, but because you tell me you will be home, and I want to see you, I will be home by that time too. It's just courtesy.

I have a busy life. Kuroi has a busy life. We make time where we can. (Or we used to. )

If you don't set a time, because you are going on a date, and aren't sure, then all I want to know is if you are coming home, or spending the whole night out, as in, sleeping at your date's place.

Pretty much all of the "you're late" issues that cropped up between Kuroi and me were all due to hobby-related activities. Sometimes I send calm messages checking if everything's ok, and asking how late Kuroi is running. Other times, I'm frustrated with waiting, and am not so calm. >.>

 

[pulliman]

(Whoops! This was written without recognizing that there were other posts to respond to, as well, meaning: page 2. Anyway, I'll leave it as is, though I read more since then and have a better understanding of things.)

I'm wondering about these questions:

I recommend taking a look at what is bothering you. Are you being so deeply and profoundly inconvenienced by his unabashed disregard for your feelings as to prompt so much irritation? Or... is this not a big deal and you are displacing some other negative feeling and using this as an outlet?

It sounds like something is definitely going on, but I'm skeptical that his being later than he said is really grounds for this much frustration.

Do you know what is actually bothering you?

From what you wrote earlier, the issue would have been easier if she'd stuck to her original schedule (she blew something off, do you fear she'll blow off other things that are directly connected to you?) and if they'd been together as a couple long enough for you to feel okay calling up and asking "Hey, what's up?" Those two things (her changing her schedule for him, you feeling constrained so as to not send the wrong signal) could each, individually, be difficult spaces. I'm just guessing, based on what you wrote, but those sounded like where your buttons were pushed.

 

[london]

He was late. So what? The OP does definitely need to look at why him provisionally saying what time he expects to be home and not sticking to it causes such anxiety. Honestly people, let go. You don't own your partners. Let them have a life.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

I am a very laid-back person in general, but when someone fails to show as expected and I don't hear from them, it always crosses my mind that something may have happened to them, like a car wreck. Not that that has ever actually been the case, but the point is, you don't know.

I'm with you on this. How hard is it to send a text when you realize you are running late, saying, "Met up with X. We're going to Y. Won't be back home 'til Z"? Or, "Drank too much. Gonna crash at Joe's place"? Then I don't worry and I know alternative ways to get in touch when they forget to charge their phones.

The issue of "What if they are dead in a ditch?" has always been a weak argument, imo. If they are out with their friends and are late... why are they late? Obviously because they are out with their friends and they are, god forbid, having a good time and lost track of the hour. If he's on a date and running late... what do you imagine happened? I'm sure he doesn't need his pissed off wife/girlfriend calling him and griping at him like he's a little kid. "The street lights are on and YOU SAID YOU'D BE HOME!"

To be fair, the one time (nothing to do with poly) MrS didn't come home when I expected, and there was no text, and I couldn't get hold of him by phone in the AM, he had, in fact, taken out 50 feet of guardrail and totaled the car. Luckily, no one was hurt, but people do get into accidents. Doesn't matter if it is a date, friends, shopping or running to the post office...

It's not about being pissy and him getting in trouble-- it's about follow-through and courtesy. I don't give a damn whether he comes home or not, but 10 seconds to send a "Will be home later than planned" text vs. hours of worry... that's not worth the trouble?

When the weather is bad, I let the boys know when I am leaving the office and what route I am taking, so if I am late they can come dig me out of a ditch. Where we live there are a lot of backroads with no traffic to stop and help, and no cell service. This is just basic back-up safety.

The boys are often in places/venues that are really loud when they are out, so they never hear their phones. Therefore, it is their job to inform me about changes in plans. I shouldn't have to spend hours tracking them down when they are late if I need the car back because the dog is unexpectedly sick and needs to go to the vet.

It's not about rules. Our actions affect other people. We should be courteous and take that into consideration.

 

[london]

The problem occurs when one person doesn't count sayig what time they reckon they will be back as a 'plan'.

 

[PipersGirl]

How is extending common courtesy to a partner (or anyone for that matter) controlling or limiting?

If I tell my partner, or a friend, or really anyone, that I’ll be home (or at a certain location) at a certain time, I’ll be there. If the other person requests that we meet at a certain time and I agree to that time, I’ll be there. If something comes up and I’m running late (more than a couple of minutes), it only takes seconds to text the other person and let them know that! To me, it’s rude to be late and to not inform the effected party of that.

So if I don’t plan to be somewhere at a specific time, I don’t tell the person I’m meeting a set time. Why say I’ll be there at 8pm if that’s not my intention? If I’m not sure what time I’ll be there, I tell the other person that, whether it’s my partner, a friend, whoever.

I’m willing to bet that if (generic) you have a job interview or an appointment with a business associate, you’ll be on time. Or if you are going to be late, you call and let them know that.

It truly baffles me why it suddenly becomes an issue of “control,” or some deep underlying issue your partner has, if they get irritated or annoyed that they didn't receive the same courtesy a stranger or a business associate would deserve and receive.

 

[Marcus]

When the weather is bad I let the boys know when I am leaving the office and what route I am taking...

When weather is bad, and someone is running late, it is reasonable to be concerned. It is also reasonable to assume that they don't want to call me or text me while they are driving in severe weather. I can understand waiting until it seems like too long and texting a "Hey, it's awful out there. If you can send me a smiley face to let me know you are okay, please do." What I don't get is, "How dare you not call me? I'm worried sick, blah blah nag blah nag." The question should be raised, is the irritation commensurate with the crime?

For the cheap seats, all I'm suggesting is to keep things in perspective and to be honest about the nature of the agitation and seeming need to be given regular updates.

I have a friend who has what I consider to be a severely heightened sense of obligation when someone says they are going to do something. He gets irritated when someone doesn't perform exactly as they stated they would. He isn't irritated because he has been inconvenienced or injured, he is simply put out because someone didn't perform as promised. It's the principle of the thing which causes him to get upset, even if the action promised was essentially irrelevant.

To me, this is not rational. I do understand having an opinion about being put out, delayed, injured, whatever (as I alluded to in my previous post), but getting irritated just on principle? I get that people do it. Hell, I do it. But that doesn't make it reasonable, positive, or healthy.

So again, all I'm saying is that people should check their motivations when they get annoyed by people being late. Is the principle of, "You said 8 and it's 8:15" really worth the irritation, if there was no harm or delay caused? Is it even relevant in the grand scheme of things? I say... not remotely.