Looking for experienced advice & perspective.

[Tommy29]

Sorry about all the harshness you've been receiving here. My impressions/advice --

You have a friend/lover who you've known for several years. You're planning to do a trial move-in with the possibility of a long-term commitment (marriage). You have an open relationship, and both have the freedom to get involved with other people emotionally and physically, but right now neither of you is involved in any other serious emotional relationships, just a number of physical ones. Your other involvements take the form of casual sex, hers take the form of informal sex work (no judgment whatsoever implied by calling it sex work -- I know it's easy to say that, but I actually mean it --that just seems to be what it is, exchanging sex for money). You're concerned as to whether or not you can form a deep bond with this person in the context you've created for yourselves, or whether her involvements with other people will keep you from emotionally committing to her. You also worry whether she's truly willing/able to commit to you.

Sound right?

I think there are a few things to consider here.

1) Three months may not be enough time to decide whether a serious commitment is a good idea. People can still be on their best behavior for the first few months of a relationship -- you don't usually *really* get to know them, warts at all, until a little further in. I imagine this is true also for a major shift in a relationship -- you may get to see the best side of her as a roommate/partner in those three months, and then find that things change down the line. Why not just plan to live together for as long as it makes sense for both of you, and leave the serious commitment for when it really feels right? What's the rush?

2) If you do decide that a serious commitment is what you both want, marriage may or may not be necessary. Marriage ties you to another person legally. If you don't think of it as a religious thing, then the legal aspect is the ONLY difference between marriage and any other type of commitment ceremony. Is being legally tied to another person, half your property being theirs, etc., really right for you two? Why? That takes a HUGE amount of trust and, if it doesn't work out, you two will be able to really screw each other over if you're married (divorce proceedings!). I'm not saying it couldn't ever be right, but if you're still having such fundamental doubts, I would hold off on making anything legal until years down the line. I just don't see what benefit it would confer to either of you, and I worry that you're considering it mainly because it's what society tells you a committed relationship has to look like. Not true.

3) Are you truly ok with an open relationship? This is where your most serious questions seem to be. There are two parts to this.

3A) Are you ok with her being with other people on an emotional level? I'm thinking of this thing you said -- "She makes statements sometimes that send a ping of pain into my body. One recently was her talking about another guy and she said something akin to "yeah i think he is worth the effort, i actually like him, hes probably the only one in the world i would put that much effort in for." She is not being cruel in telling me this... we are just really solid friends and shes being honest...this is her bf that dumped her.".

It sounds like this really hurt you. I can see why -- "the only one in the world" makes it sound like she puts him above everyone else, even you... again, why would you marry someone, which you can only do with ONE person in the world at a time under our legal system, when you're not their #1 priority. So there's that question, about this specific guy -- does she really care about him more than you, would she leave you for him if he asked? But then there's the more general question, how would you react if she didn't put him above you, just on an equal plane, but wanted an equal emotional relationship with him or with someone else? This is where "polyamory" actually enters the picture. Do you believe that people can have functional, honest, respectful, loving relationships with more than one person? Do you believe that you and she have the communication and time-management skills for that? There are some great writings at www.morethantwo.com that might help you feel out whether this is a path that makes sense for the two of you.

3B) Are you ok with her being with other people on a physical level? You said -- "Today i messaged her something random and she replied "I'm getting fucked as i write this lol." It hurt and my natural inclination is to care less about her and pull my emotions away." If she's doing sex work (which, again, is what being a gold digger seems to be to me, if in a more informal way), being physically intimate with other people is part of her every day experience. It's what she's chosen to make her happy and to pay her bills. You need to be able to accept this 100% in order to be with her. If you find that it makes you pull away and grow cold, then, no, I'm sorry, this is not going to work unless you can find a way to get over that. This video may be of help to you --

4) Is she the right one? Let's say you work out all of the issues above. That still doesn't mean this is the right relationship for you, necessarily. You say -- "I love her a lot but I feel like she doesnt love me the same way... i think i would give up alot for her... but she woudlnt me... and so i think my pulling away emotionally and not wanting to marry her is justified..."

Does she love you as much as you love her, would she sacrifice for you like you would for her? These are crucial questions. Don't go jumping into anything without knowing the answers... there's no big rush!! Take the time to really learn her heart and mind. ASK her these questions, and, better yet, pay close attention to her actions, how she treats you. When something is important to you and she needs help, but it would be inconvenient for her to be there, does she do it anyway?

And then you say -- "but hten i also feel marrying her and sleeping with other women on the side would be a baller situation that i would like... and if id idnt i would miss out on a lifestyle id enjoy logically... I'm so confused.....

Make sure that you're not just doing it because it makes sense "logically". Your gut has to agree with your head, or you'll be miserable in short order. What makes you think you couldn't have this "lifestyle" -- a committed, caring relationship and casual encounters on the side -- unless you make this particular commitment to this particular women? What you're describing actually isn't that uncommon. Call it polyamory (which would be the right word if you're open to forming emotional bonds with other people), call it swinging, call it an open relationship, it's everywhere. Don't jump into something that feels wrong because you think this is your last chance to have the life you want.

Good luck!!!!

Thank you for all this advice. Um... there is something I should have mentioned. She isn't a U.S. citizen, so we will be having 3 months to decide if we want to marry.

There are certainly multiple parts of me, which makes us complicated as people. I'm not exactly okay with her seeing other people, but I'm also not okay with us being only together. I would not be happy if I could only see her. lol

She told me recently that she has been fucking this guy for a long time, over a year, and she emotionally always wants him, like no one she has ever been with, but he also emotionally manipulates her. She also said she could be with him if she wanted to, but she is choosing to come and be with me and leave him. But the fact that she has fucked him for so long leaves her emotionally closer to him, even though she is making the choice to not be, and to be closer to me.

She also told me recently she would give up being a sugar baby for me if I wanted her to. She was doing it as a way for me and her to be together, because before she couldn't handle the idea of being with me while I was with other women. But it is something she wants to do. I didn't know this when I wrote the original post. It does make me feel like she would give up a lot and really cares about me, etc.

I mean, I care about her more than she cares about me right now, but she has cared about me more than I cared about her in the past.

Hmm... I don't feel like it's my last chance or anything. In fact, I feel like I could probably find someone better if I waited. But I think it's a good time for me in my life to kind of make house with someone, and find the woman who's going to be most important to me. I think she has a huge potential to be that, more than most women I have met.

 

[Tommy29]

Look, you two can not live like Caligula on a bender and expect to be able to form a healthy core relationship. If you want to have a stable home to come home to, then you have to build that relationship first. Meaning if you two want to build a life together, you need to focus on the two of you and stop playing around with others until you have a solid foundation.

Hmm... that makes sense. But won't that be even harder on us when we all of a sudden change from only being together to being with other people?

 

[london]

"Sugar babying," "sugar daddying" and "gold digging" are forms of prostitution, not polyamory.

There are forms of the Daddy/babygirl relationship and its variants that include a "Sugar Daddy" element. It does not mean there is always an absence of emotional and/or romantic attachment.

Rubbing your naughty-bits together with the naughty-bits of more than one other person within a given time period does not mean you are "poly." It means you fucked more than one person within a given time period.

You can be poly (have the potential of multiple romantic relationships) and also enjoy rubbing your naughty bits with more than one person in any given time frame. You don't have to love all the people you fuck to be poly, you don't even have to currently love more than one of them. There just has to be the potential for any of those relationships to involve a romantic attachment.

I just want to make sure you know what these big words mean.

Even if you do know what it means, it doesn't mean that you can't either have a sugar daddy arrangement, even one which doesn't involve love and is prostitution, or have one night stands. Prostitutes can be poly too. Prostitutes are actually capable of having loving relationships too, believe it or not. As are people who have one-night stands.

This situation is so not poly.

I guess not, if you believe people who have casual sex are automatically discounted from the poly label.

You can spin your lifestyle all you want, but do not label it as polyamory to make yourself feel better.

Being labelled poly could only console someone if we went with the idea that polyamory is superior to other relationship styles. That isn't something I subscribe to.

To me, it is no wonder you are involved with a chick who fucks men for their money. You and she are very much alike! You use women for sex, she uses men for money.

This is an attack on sex workers. If someone consents to a one-night stand, they are not being used. Regardless of whether Tommy wants to spin it like that. If I agree to fuck someone I met in a club, I know it's more than likely going to be a one-night stand, and when I say yes, I am saying that not only am I okay with that, I actually want it.

Tommy, just work out your boundaries and communicate them to her. Good luck.

 

[IndieSolo]

To me, it is no wonder you are involved with a chick who fucks men for their money - you and she are very much alike! You use women for sex, she uses men for money.

This is an attack on sex workers. If someone consents to a one night stand, they are not being used. Regardless of whether Tommy wants to spin it like that. If I agree to fuck someone I met in a club, I know it's more than likely going to be a one-night stand, and when I say yes, I am saying that not only am I okay with that, I actually want it.

Not an attack on sex workers at all. If you actually knew anything about me, you would know I wouldn't do that. I don't have anything against sex work. But we don't know his gf is a sex worker. All we know is that she fucks guys to get money from them, but lots of women do that and aren't professional sex workers. I wouldn't categorize her as that, necessarily. Tommy hasn't confirmed whether she is or isn't a sex worker. Or did I miss something?

Sheesh, attacking sex workers. [sigh]

What I was saying is that Tommy and his gf are similar in personality and goals. They see people for what they can get out of them. They are users. It should also be obvious that my saying that does not mean the other people don't equally want to be used, or to get what they can get from them.

 

[Tommy29]

Not an attack on sex workers at all. If you actually knew anything about me, you would know I wouldn't do that. I don't have anything against sex work. But we don't know his gf is a sex worker. All we know is that she fucks guys to get money from them, but lots of women do that and aren't professional sex workers. I wouldn't categorize her as that, necessarily. Tommy hasn't confirmed whether she is or isn't a sex worker. Or did I miss something?

What I was saying is that Tommy and his gf are similar in personality and goals-- they see people for what they can get out of them. They are users. It should also be obvious that my saying that does not mean the other people don't equally want to be used, or to get what they can get from them.

I'm really surprised to find so much criticism and judgement and things made personal here. I guess when I think about it, it might make sense. The way my life is offends and threatens the way some other people live their lives. The same way a monogamous couple might feel threatened by the idea of polyamory and attack it. Before anyone says "I wasn't doing that at all!" I just have to say... we are all capable of acting critical of things that threaten our reality. I'm guilty of it at times.

Anyway, to be honest, I know my value to a woman most often when I sleep with someone I met at a bar or club. It is the woman who tries to get me to sleep with her. It is the woman who drags me around with her throughout the night. It is the woman who takes me home with her. It is the woman who kisses me, who initiates sex with me. When we walk away from the situation, it is the woman who feels like she has gotten something she needed out of what happened.

I think some people here are assuming I am going out and using women for sex. The fact is, I just love getting to know women; I love finding out small intimate details about what makes them who they are; I love following our friendship to wherever that leads.

It's true, I eventually choose not to have sex with many women. I'm sure they are marriage material and fuckable, for someone else, but not for me. It's not personal. Often it's the situation, or I find them higher risk than average for STDs. Maybe they say or do something that I just don't approve of. I don't judge them, but there are people I assert my free will not to sleep with. Some women don't put in enough effort to attract me. Some women don't put enough effort into themselves to make me interested.

I think there are some people that would find it offensive what has been stated here about women and men. To assume that women are just so dumb and helpless they are sitting out there in bars, vulnerably wandering until they are taken advantage of by some MAN. Seems like too many ugly stereotypes in these assumptions. The reality is I am just a niche guy who women at bars and clubs feel comfortable around. Often they are alone and traveling and single and want some adventure; or they just broke up with a boyfriend; or they just have been single too long. Many of them admit to me they come out to find a guy. Many of them are using me for sex and don't care about me at all.

Honestly, I care about the women I get to know. I remember the names of all the women I've slept with. I know details about their lives, ambitions, beliefs, etc. Probably most of them don't even remember me. lol.

I'm okay with my predicament now, but it used to really offend me that women used me for sex and threw me away afterward.

Yes, this may have angered you, because you thought this was what I was doing to women. Women out there aren't any better than men out there. But the women I sleep with all have free will; they all enjoyed themselves. I get the sense from them that they really needed to find me, like I'm doing a public service. Many of them thank me.. some of them tell me its been years and they really needed what i gave them. Some have cried and as i held them after while thanking me.

These are not dumb women easily taken advantage of. There are 100's of other men hitting on them and not fucking them. So it's kind of offensive to assume that what is going on is me taking advantage of them. Also, I would love to see a lot of these women again, but the truth of the situation seems to be that there is a high turnover rate for these kinds of interactions. Not a lot of these women are in places in their lives were they want to meet someone who's going to be a resident in their life. And probably meeting me the way they meet me isn't the way they want to meet someone, either.

I'm fine with that, and so are they. So why aren't you?

 

[IndieSolo]

I'm fine with that, and so are they. So why aren't you?

I am perfectly fine with it. I really don't care what you do. Why would you think it mattered at all to me, just because I offered an opinion? I read your post, had a few thoughts come to me, and shared them. That's all.

I'm really surprised to find so much criticism and judgement and things made personal here. I guess when I think about it it might make sense. The way my life is offends and threatens the way some other people live their lives . . . Before anyone says "I wasn't doing that at all!" I just have to say, we are all capable of acting critical of things that threaten our reality . . . Yes this may have angered you . . .

Are you talking about me? I really don't see how an anonymous stranger on the internet could "threaten my reality." That makes no sense at all to me. My reality isn't affected by how other people live their lives unless they are a part of my life. And I'm not angry. Not just because I have nothing against casual sex, but I don't know you. You could be making all of this up (it's the internet, after all), so why would I bother getting angry? That would be a waste of my energy.

If people would just imagine my words spoken softly in a calm, unemotional tone when they read what I write, they would know I am simply either offering an opinion, a viewpoint, some suggestions, and/or stating the obvious. Just being straightforward with no emotion behind it. I never said nor implied that any of the woman you hook up with are dumb. I never said nor implied that they weren't getting something out of their liaisons with you. The gist of what I said was that it was no wonder you and your friend are drawn to each other because you seem to create very similar dynamics in your interpersonal interactions.

In your first post, you seemed to state that you want something more satisfying than what you've been experiencing in your trysts and one-night stands, and so I offered my opinions so you could see another perspective, maybe something you hadn't before, and consider that your relationships reflect what you put into them. You can take or leave anything I have to say. It doesn't matter one bit to me and I'm not really interested in much more than what's already been said. Good luck with everything.

 

[Marcus]

There is something i should have mentioned. She isn't a U.S. citizen. So we will be having 3 months to decide if we want to marry.

So it's a "marry so she can get her citizenship" kind of situation? If this is a doing a friend a favor kind of marriage, then don't try and shoehorn it into something it isn't. People most often get into relationships because they have a connection that they want to explore, not the other way around. It's ok to let a relationship exist on its own terms.

I would say that if you decide to go through with the marriage, no matter how you feel about each other, PLEASE get a prenuptial agreement.

I'm not exactly okay with her seeing other people, but I'm also not okay with us being only together, because I would not be happy if I could only see her.

I would say this is poly. It's just an example of really gross, hypocritical poly. People make these kinds of agreements, all the time, though, so if she's ok with you deciding for her what she can and cannot do with her emotions and body, then that's for her to decide.

She also told me recently she would give up being a sugar baby for me if I wanted her to. She was doing it as a way for me and her to be together, because before she couldn't handle the idea of being with me while I was with other women. But it is something she wants to do. I didn't know this when I wrote the original post. it does make me feel like she would give up a lot and really cares about me.

It does sound like she would do quite a bit of redefining who she is for your sake. Would you consider this an expression of her caring about you? It's entirely possible that this is simply her being codependent. Keep your eyes open and be honest about what you are seeing, is all I'm suggesting.

I can't tell if there is a language barrier, if you are in a hurry when you write, or what... but at least from this end, it sounds like you are all over the place and really have no idea what it is you are looking for. While I understand there is an arbitrary external stop watch on one of your decisions, I would strongly consider you take the time to slow down just a bit and do some reflecting. Read through these boards critically, pick up Ethical Slut or one of the other many books on open relationships.

Or dive in and see how it turns out. Just take responsibility for your decisions.

 

[london]

NYCindie, you referred to the women that Tommy has casual sex with as "being used" more than once. No decent person would condone someone being used, outside of a consensual kink-based interaction. So it's either that you are okay with the idea of people being used non-consensually, or you think that these women could not, would not agree to casual and/or random sex, so he must not be forthcoming about his intentions with them.